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[Vampire: The Masquerade] The Reckoning of Seattle Continues

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    Maybe my opinion of Immersive Sims is colored by not actually playing any titans of the genre, but people talk them up in a way that makes me think Bloodlines shouldn't be included. Surely it takes more interactivity than just the ability to stealth past most encounters in broad daylight while gaining similar progression rewards. I don't recall anything interesting you could do with objects or the environment at any point, the good stuff mainly came down to dialogue choices with some interaction with stats or clan.

    rahkeesh2000 on
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited October 11
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I do find it amusing there are people offended about "how dare he say some parts of VtM are subpar" on the same page as "and here are the parts you should skip because eugh"

    Come on now, this is a ridiculous strawman. Read the words people are using, don't construct made up arguments to rail against. Lots of words have been spent over the last page explaining the difference.

    Fiatil on
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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited October 12
    Maybe my opinion of Immersive Sims is colored by not actually playing any titans of the genre, but people talk them up in a way that makes me think Bloodlines shouldn't be included. Surely it takes more interactivity than just the ability to stealth past most encounters in broad daylight while gaining similar progression rewards. I don't recall anything interesting you could do with objects or the environment at any point, the good stuff mainly came down to dialogue choices with some interaction with stats or clan.

    Oh this one is easy -- if there is any game with stealth that doesn't let you sneak past enemies in broad daylight, it's Bloodlines ;)

    Fiatil on
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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I do find it amusing there are people offended about "how dare he say some parts of VtM are subpar" on the same page as "and here are the parts you should skip because eugh"
    It's the difference between admitting that the original game had flaws, and then - ideally - following it up with a discussion of how you're going to improve on them for the sequel, and publicly decrying the original game as kinda crummy, and telling fans of the original not to compare your sequel to said original.

    The first one is great, and admirable. The second one is slimy.

  • Zombie GandhiZombie Gandhi Registered User regular
    It seems sorr of weird when it felt like at announcement that they bought the IP rights explicitly to make this sequel, then are like "wait no"

  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    It seems sorr of weird when it felt like at announcement that they bought the IP rights explicitly to make this sequel, then are like "wait no"
    Oh I'm sure they wanted to make a literal Bloodlines 2: It's Bloodlines Again, but then for whatever reason things didn't go according to plan, and now they're back-pedaling with a concentrated look on their face.

    Man, I would love to know what exactly went wrong with the original iteration. They say "Hardsuit Labs had a problem delivering on the vision we agreed on" (which, by the way, seems like really shitty phrasing; unnecessarily condescending), but what does that mean? That they were inefficient and couldn't deliver the full scope of the game on time? Or, that they had a creative disagreement about what the game should be like? Or, what? That they fired the narrative lead and the creative director seems to suggest it was a creative disagreement, but then they dumped the whole studio later, so who knows. The whole development history seems fractally messed up - no matter what part of it you look at, no matter how closely you look, it just causes more confusion and raises more questions.

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    Yeah the version of Paradox that existed at the time the game was pitched to them wanted to make a hella Bloodlines-ey Bloodlines 2. They mined that nostalgia well deep -- Mitsoda everywhere -- and I think they wanted to make that game.

    But that was long ago, Hardsuit proved themselves to be not suited to the task, it's been confirmed that every exec at Paradox involved in greenlighting the original project is now gone, and Paradox themselves are now admitting they just don't have the bones as a publisher to make a game like that.

    They've pivoted to "release something, anything, to try to dig out of this giant money hole we've created buying this IP and developing this game". It's understandable from a corporate standpoint, but essentially a custom crafted formula to upset most everyone that was excited about the original game.

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    I think there's even odds we get to Jan or May 2025 and Bloodlines 2 gets cancelled. Paradox already cancelled Life By You this year, which was arguably closer to some sort of release, and took a ~$20mil write down for it. Dunno. I guess we'll see.

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I do find it amusing there are people offended about "how dare he say some parts of VtM are subpar" on the same page as "and here are the parts you should skip because eugh"
    It's the difference between admitting that the original game had flaws, and then - ideally - following it up with a discussion of how you're going to improve on them for the sequel, and publicly decrying the original game as kinda crummy, and telling fans of the original not to compare your sequel to said original.

    The first one is great, and admirable. The second one is slimy.

    A very good comparison is Bethesda with Fallout. Now you can say what you will about Bethesda and Fallout, but during the development of Fallout 3 they were nothing but respectful to the OGs. Even though they had to concede that they weren't going to be making FO3 exactly like the originals they'd state that they hoped their game would be half as good.

    Sure people did rage about the changes, but Bethesda themselves showed nothing but reverence to the OGs. To be fair to Bethesda the isometric, turn-based RPG was all be extinct in 2008, so money wise they had every reason to do something different.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
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  • Jean-LucJean-Luc Registered User regular
    VTMB kinda was the last drop that sank Troika. :P

  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    Arguably Activision didn't help: they didn't want to let Troika work on Bloodlines after it was "complete" for a few months before release. The game couldn't release before HL2 as it was using the Source Engine, but Activision wouldn't allow any further development before the game went out.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    Yeah, it was a little unfair to Half-Life 2, but I think Valve weathered it rather well.

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Axen wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I do find it amusing there are people offended about "how dare he say some parts of VtM are subpar" on the same page as "and here are the parts you should skip because eugh"
    It's the difference between admitting that the original game had flaws, and then - ideally - following it up with a discussion of how you're going to improve on them for the sequel, and publicly decrying the original game as kinda crummy, and telling fans of the original not to compare your sequel to said original.

    The first one is great, and admirable. The second one is slimy.

    A very good comparison is Bethesda with Fallout. Now you can say what you will about Bethesda and Fallout, but during the development of Fallout 3 they were nothing but respectful to the OGs. Even though they had to concede that they weren't going to be making FO3 exactly like the originals they'd state that they hoped their game would be half as good.

    Sure people did rage about the changes, but Bethesda themselves showed nothing but reverence to the OGs. To be fair to Bethesda the isometric, turn-based RPG was all be extinct in 2008, so money wise they had every reason to do something different.

    Maybe in their original interviews, but the gameplay and story was pretty disrespectful.

    And like, talking about vampires, they also scooped the fallout license when troika was trying to license their own fo3

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  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »

    Maybe in their original interviews, but the gameplay and story was pretty disrespectful.

    And like, talking about vampires, they also scooped the fallout license when troika was trying to license their own fo3

    Gameplay can be disrespectful? This is pretty close to saying that a series isn't allowed to reinvent its mechanics.

  • Sir CarcassSir Carcass I have been shown the end of my world Round Rock, TXRegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    I think there's even odds we get to Jan or May 2025 and Bloodlines 2 gets cancelled. Paradox already cancelled Life By You this year, which was arguably closer to some sort of release, and took a ~$20mil write down for it. Dunno. I guess we'll see.

    I think it's likely that the only reason it hasn't been cancelled is the existing fanbase that they think they can recoup some money from. If this was a new IP it would have been gone at the same time HSL were.

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    I do find it amusing there are people offended about "how dare he say some parts of VtM are subpar" on the same page as "and here are the parts you should skip because eugh"
    It's the difference between admitting that the original game had flaws, and then - ideally - following it up with a discussion of how you're going to improve on them for the sequel, and publicly decrying the original game as kinda crummy, and telling fans of the original not to compare your sequel to said original.

    The first one is great, and admirable. The second one is slimy.

    A very good comparison is Bethesda with Fallout. Now you can say what you will about Bethesda and Fallout, but during the development of Fallout 3 they were nothing but respectful to the OGs. Even though they had to concede that they weren't going to be making FO3 exactly like the originals they'd state that they hoped their game would be half as good.

    Sure people did rage about the changes, but Bethesda themselves showed nothing but reverence to the OGs. To be fair to Bethesda the isometric, turn-based RPG was all be extinct in 2008, so money wise they had every reason to do something different.

    Maybe in their original interviews, but the gameplay and story was pretty disrespectful.

    And like, talking about vampires, they also scooped the fallout license when troika was trying to license their own fo3

    Like I said, you can say what you will about Bethesda and their Fallout. I certainly have my issues, but in the lead up to FO3 they did the right and frankly obvious thing; talk about how much they loved the OGs, talk about how they intend to keep the spirit of the OG games alive and hope that their game does justice to the IP.

    Is that all PR gobbledygook? Absolutely! But it is the thing you're supposed to do because you're trying to sell a product and are fighting an uphill battle. And to be fair this isn't always bullshit, there are plenty of studios who carried on the torch of a beloved IP and did genuinely care. Larian springs to mind, but there are others. In fact they are another great example to what I said previously.

    Seeing someone not do that in an interview is bizarre at the least, if not stupid. Stranger still is that he doesn't actually try big up Bloodlines 2. He essentially does the opposite.

    I think after reading the interview a reasonable conclusion one could come to is that Paradox does not care about Bloodlines 2. It is an albatross around their neck and they wish to be rid of it and wash their hands of the whole ordeal. Considering this is Paradox we are talking about, that was probably a forgone conclusion honestly.

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    Paradox owns the whole World of Darkness IP, so I can't imagine they just want to wash their hands of the whole thing; why would they buy it in the first place?

    But Bloodlines 2 specifically... yeah.

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  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Yeah, Paradox is really screwing up Bloodlines 2, but at least they're not CCP. Which isn't a very high bar to clear, but clear it they did.

  • mastertheheromasterthehero Professional Video Editor & Book Author Registered User regular
    This is not going to be the Bloodlines sequel we all want is it? I don't understand why this property is having such a trouble development. What the heck is going on behind the scenes that it's a constant hassle?

  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    This is not going to be the Bloodlines sequel we all want is it? I don't understand why this property is having such a trouble development. What the heck is going on behind the scenes that it's a constant hassle?

    Tbh, even the original pitch with mitsoda on board never was going to be

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    This is not going to be the Bloodlines sequel we all want is it? I don't understand why this property is having such a trouble development. What the heck is going on behind the scenes that it's a constant hassle?

    Definitely not the one we all want, but one I want to play still. Regardless, people can hem and haw NOT MY BLOODLINES all they want, I'm stoked to try it.

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited October 14
    This is not going to be the Bloodlines sequel we all want is it? I don't understand why this property is having such a trouble development. What the heck is going on behind the scenes that it's a constant hassle?

    Well ya see, when the game was announced to the public, we all thought Paradox was a good publisher. Their first party games were neat, they were PC-focused, and pretty good at listening to community feedback. We were all a little more naive in 2019.

    Unfortunately, time has taught us that Paradox is a really bad publisher. They're good at making their own first party games (though you could argue they ship the 1.0 version dramatically undercooked and expect people to buy DLC to make it work (Victoria 3)), but pretty bad at publishing third party titles. They have a couple of solid ones, but man if you look at their entire catalogue it is rough. Cities Skylines 2, Life By You, Werewolf: Earthblood, whatever weird BS they pulled with the developers of Surviving Mars leading to the terrible third party DLC released after they were kicked off the project, and the crowning jewel of the mess of Bloodlines 2's development speaks volumes.

    They're just not suited to publishing any games that are past some threshhold of "big" like they thought they were (and we hoped they were). They appear to be course correcting and scaling back, but the damage is done and here we are.

    Fiatil on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited October 22
    They did have some notable third party titles that did well in the 2010s, they just seem to very enthusiastically gone to shit as a publisher since 2020. I think Age of Wonders is the only third party game/series that hasn’t turned into a massive shitfest since then.

    Edit: sorry somehow didn’t notice this conversation was a week old.

    Jealous Deva on
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    You know, I completely forgot that Paradox had acquired Harebrained Schemes. I must have repressed that memory because we could have had Bloodlines 2 developed by the company that made Dragonfall.

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    You know, I completely forgot that Paradox had acquired Harebrained Schemes. I must have repressed that memory because we could have had Bloodlines 2 developed by the company that made Dragonfall.

    Or at very least their writers, but I don't think they'd be capable of doing a full-on 3D game when they specialize in 2.5-ish.

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  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    I mentioned this several months ago, but I finally completed my play through of Bloodlines 1 with a friend. She had never played, so we ran through it together with me observing and offering advice when needed, and we had a blast!

    The most difficult part was convincing her to hold off on starting another solo run to finish it (takes time to complete when you have to meet up to do it!), but she held off and i got to see her fresh reactions to all of the cool events. Now I'm sending her off with a copy so she can live her new dream of being a very persuasive Nosferatu for a second solo run.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    edited October 24
    The mechanics sound cool, but yeah, all these ideas and no execution....

    The music update is coming in about two weeks, I'd love to see how they address that elephant in the room(after they canned Bloodlines 2's composer, of all the things to deep six).

    cj iwakura on
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  • DemonStaceyDemonStacey TTODewback's Daughter In love with the TaySwayRegistered User regular
    Just show me a little gameplay to know if I'm gonna have a fun time. Show me enough that I can draw conclusions from.

    I like the words they are saying. I just wanna be a vampire and level up vampire powers.

  • KarozKaroz Registered User regular
    edited October 31
    https://youtu.be/a2cXtEoGx7E

    Guessing this is Male Phyre confirmed? Still no word on how much more, if any, customization there will be.

    Karoz on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    I like the designs, even if some of it feels a bit too on the nose, and it doesn't seem like there's shopping options, you just kind of... unlock the outfits?

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