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Let's talk about the [NRA] NOT gun control

HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
edited August 2020 in Debate and/or Discourse
Thread update:
BREAKING: The People v. the NRA has been filed by NY AG Letitia James. Here we go...
Looks like it is fucking on. The NRA is on the brink of being taken down for the embezzlement shenanigans going on.

Original OP Text Below and Still Relevant:
Once upon a time, the National Rifle Association had one goal - the instruction of safe gun use. Don't have your gun loaded unless you intend to shoot, don't point the gun at anyone / anything unless you intend to shoot, don't have your finger on the trigger unless you intend to shoot. Y'know, that sensible sort of stuff.

Then in the late 1970s shit got crazy and the NRA was hijacked by what it is today - a lobbyist group that seems more concerned with the chaos and loss of life than the preservation thereof. It's really easy to dunk on the NRA for being shit. They promote Republican candidates, donating heavily to them, and this is where we get "thoughts and prayers," "now's not the time," and "don't politicize tragedy" whenever a mass shooting happens (a now daily occurrence by some definitions; weekly by others (that's still bad)). Things have been changing lately though. During the Special Counsel investigation by Robert Mueller it was discovered that the NRA was compromised by Russia, both financially and by way of an agent who infiltrated the group (who, by the way, was recently sentenced).

The real reason why I'm making this thread though is because it looks like the NRA might be done as an organization. Oliver North is stepping down as president of the NRA in the wake of financial wankery that has put it at risk of losing its non-profit status.

So that's what this thread is about; the NRA's potential upcoming downfall, the why's and how's and all that stuff that makes this place so fun.

This thread is not a catch-all for any shooting incidents that happen in America.

This thread is not about debating the merits of the 2nd amendment or how much you love guns.

(did I miss any potential derails?)

Also let me end this OP by saying the NRA is essentially a terrorist organization in my view.

Edit - Okay here's the start of the NY Times article linked above:
INDIANAPOLIS — Oliver L. North announced on Saturday that he would not serve a second term as the National Rifle Association’s president, deciding to step down as the organization grappled with a bitter dispute over its future and its worst leadership crisis in decades.

He made the announcement as the N.R.A. faced a challenge from the New York attorney general, Letitia James, who had opened an investigation into the gun group’s tax-exempt status.

On Friday, Ms. James’s office sent letters instructing the N.R.A. and affiliated entities, including its charitable foundation, to preserve relevant financial records. Some of the N.R.A.’s related businesses also received subpoenas, according to people with knowledge of the inquiry. A lawyer for the N.R.A. confirmed the investigation.

Henroid on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Could you put a good, trustworthy article about this in the OP?

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Could you put a good, trustworthy article about this in the OP?
    Is the NY Times article not enough?

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Sorry, for some reason I didn’t see the links.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Sorry, for some reason I didn’t see the links.
    Fair enough, it's light blue on white so blargh. I quoted the article in though, I should've done that to begin with. For a second there I was like "did we not make it one post without complaining about the media?" XD

    I forgot to mention the power struggle by the way. They're trying to oust Wayne LaPierre (who I thought was gone already but it turns out he holds position of "Chief Executive"). Apparently all this fighting has to do with how the NRA operates, like the TV channel and such. I don't understand it beyond it being a really stupid pissing contest.

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    My thoughts and prayers for the NRA as they go through these troubled times...

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  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Sorry, for some reason I didn’t see the links.
    Fair enough, it's light blue on white so blargh. I quoted the article in though, I should've done that to begin with. For a second there I was like "did we not make it one post without complaining about the media?" XD

    I forgot to mention the power struggle by the way. They're trying to oust Wayne LaPierre (who I thought was gone already but it turns out he holds position of "Chief Executive"). Apparently all this fighting has to do with how the NRA operates, like the TV channel and such. I don't understand it beyond it being a really stupid pissing contest.

    Ackerman McQueen is or, until just recently was, the NRA's media-side content producer basically. NRA pays them millions of dollars, Ackerman McQueen is supposed to produce various kinds of media and marketing content for them. Except, they haven't been. They've basically been taking the money and doing nothing. The biggest example is that they were supposed to produce a 12 part video series featuring North last year, and they managed to produce about 2 1/2 parts, the last episode only coming in at 11 minutes. So, the NRA sued them just recently, as usually happens when someone takes shitloads of your money and doesn't do what you're paying them for.

    But, there's a twist. North actually works for Ackerman McQueen. Or is at least, paid by them for something or other. A few days ago, North sent a letter to LaPierre, basically extorting him, saying if he didn't step down and drop the suit, he (North) would release another letter that would be damaging to LaPierre and the NRA itself with vague threats to reveal financial improprieties by the board, and possible swept under the rug sexual assault allegations against various members. LaPierre in turn basically aired the dirty laundry and posted the letter publicly along with his response, and called North's bluff. North then stepped down when it became obvious there was no chance the board would allow him to stand to be elected as president again.

    This was all on top of the NYAG investigation into other financial improprieties by the NRA board.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    More seriously, I'd like to see what happens next before I'm willing to consider the possibility that they are in a death spiral.

    Namely, how much of a shitstorm will replacing Oliver North will be and what will LePierre do to stay as Chief Executive, cause it seems to me he's ok if the NRA goes belly-up and long as he gets to be in charge.

    Foefaller on
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  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    It should be noted (as one of them darn left-y gun owners) that there are plenty of actual "hey here's how to use a gun in a safe, responsible, and accurate manner" organizations out there that are far better than the NRA

    I could probably make a list thereof if anyone is interested in firearms but wants to not give money to horrific fuckweeds like LaPierre or North

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    It should be noted (as one of them darn left-y gun owners) that there are plenty of actual "hey here's how to use a gun in a safe, responsible, and accurate manner" organizations out there that are far better than the NRA

    I could probably make a list thereof if anyone is interested in firearms but wants to not give money to horrific fuckweeds like LaPierre or North
    Please point me in the direction of these organizations. My brother is in the NRA but it's a means to an end (has to do with his ability to sell firearms he no longer needs apparently) (he's a hunter), but would likely join another organization if he could.

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Holy shit, Oliver North wasn't trustworthy???

    Now I'm going to have to find a new babysitter!

    (For this pile of embargoed arms shipments.)

    ACsTqqK.jpg
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    From what I gather, they are extremely worried about the loss of their non-profit status because donations have been down for them & they've been running into plenty of well funded opposition. So the loss of the non-profit status could result in them having even less money for their fuckery. Not sure if any of their big donors could use them as a tax write off or not, but the US tax system is pretty damn shitty & wouldn't be surprised if one could. They definitely start getting taxed IIRC, so probably lose some donations right there (figure at least some big donors see it as a way to fund political activity with a minimum loss of funds to uncle Sam.

    Also the IRS investigation could potentially land them in other financial problems. I'd hope if they got caught misusing funds and misrepresenting themselves, that they would end up having to pay out some fines & possible back taxes. Part of me wonders if the big outcry a few years ago, when the IRS starting scrutinizing a ton of groups, was very much because these groups were abusing the rules & getting caught had a chance of bring scrutiny onto groups like the NRA. If I were an IRS investigator and caught someone misrepresenting what they were actually doing, I'd probably be taking a look at other groups they were associated with & checking for anyone else with similar practices.

    I'll wait and see, this might not kill the NRA, but they do seem to be in much weaker these days as an organization. My hope, if they don't die out (preferred), that their influence in US politics ends up being greatly weakened.

  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    If the NRA goes down in a chaotic spiral, I will applaud the whole way. But I'll believe it when I see it. They are too useful for the Republicans as a political tool.

    I basically view them as a Russian-sponsored organization also. I don't know if I'd call them a terrorist organization; more like Sinn Fein in the old days with their realtionship to the IRA. Only without an organized IRA this time. But they certainly keep enabling lone gunmen to commit unspeakable tragedy by preventing any meaningful debate on gun legislation.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    If the NRA goes down in a chaotic spiral, I will applaud the whole way. But I'll believe it when I see it. They are too useful for the Republicans as a political tool.

    I basically view them as a Russian-sponsored organization also. I don't know if I'd call them a terrorist organization; more like Sinn Fein in the old days with their realtionship to the IRA. Only without an organized IRA this time. But they certainly keep enabling lone gunmen to commit unspeakable tragedy by preventing any meaningful debate on gun legislation.

    Well what actually hurts them is the money. The org has been running in the red and with the ackerman mcqueen stuff been being bled out by the usual GOP grift without a billionare to prop them up.

    Now the GOP isn't without billionares to grift, but for some reason there is something so ugly about the behind the scenes with the NRA they are avoiding it so far like the plague.

    More about the NRA's financial troubles

    Its a New Yorker article but its very well researched and what lead to recent news stories.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    It should be noted (as one of them darn left-y gun owners) that there are plenty of actual "hey here's how to use a gun in a safe, responsible, and accurate manner" organizations out there that are far better than the NRA

    I could probably make a list thereof if anyone is interested in firearms but wants to not give money to horrific fuckweeds like LaPierre or North
    Please point me in the direction of these organizations. My brother is in the NRA but it's a means to an end (has to do with his ability to sell firearms he no longer needs apparently) (he's a hunter), but would likely join another organization if he could.

    OK, so I'll start with two center-right options first:

    Project Appleseed does a good instructional course. While implicitly right-wing at their upper levels, they maintain no ties to the NRA and the actual classes are explicitly apolitical. This is about as good of a basic course for rifle handling and especially stuff like sight adjustment as you will get for the money. Fantastic for if you want a hunting or ranch rifle and a class on how to use it well.

    Izaak Walton League of America is a conservation oriented (per a definition that includes outdoorsmanship and hunting) club that maintains rifle ranges through much of the country. Full disclosure: when I competed in high school air rifle shooting, we used one of their short ranges, so my experience with them has been particularly positive.

    Now for a couple left-y ones.

    The Liberal Gun Club is particularly good, both in and of itself, as well as for a database pointing to local options for spaces in which you can learn and train without being inundated in right-wing crazy. They tend more center-left or "classically liberal" than my next options.

    The John Brown Gun Club and Socialist Rifle Associations are full-on socialists of the "hey, so long as guns are legal for ownership in the USA, we endorse the right of minorities and the working left to defend themselves against fascists" variety. Take that as you will. I frankly fucking love these guys.

  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    I hope this is the end of the NRA as we know it because what replaces it is more likely to be like the 2AF or GOA. And if so then the NRA will actually start fighting court cases and not just jumping in after the case is essentially won, among other things. A lot of the hate for the NRA that has been coming from gun owners isn't because the "NRA is a terrorist organization", which is hyperbolic and dumb, or because they oppose "common sense" legislation but because the NRA is seen as compromising on the 2A too much re: bump stock ban, red flag laws, states passing legislation to raise the legal age to buy a firearm etc.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    ...When has the NRA been making any concessions/compromises about gun laws? I feel like I must have missed this happening, because all I know about is them pushing bills to loosen restrictions and opposing tightening legislation of any kind.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    ...When has the NRA been making any concessions/compromises about gun laws? I feel like I must have missed this happening, because all I know about is them pushing bills to loosen restrictions and opposing tightening legislation of any kind.

    They've only recently been letting things happen, and its not for lack of screaming its an infringement and more from the new yorker article they don't have the money to fight anything but themselves.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2019
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    ...When has the NRA been making any concessions/compromises about gun laws? I feel like I must have missed this happening, because all I know about is them pushing bills to loosen restrictions and opposing tightening legislation of any kind.

    Most of the "loosening restrictions" has come through the courts, and they've either stayed out of it or jumped in at the last minute to claim credit, which is one of the major criticisms aimed at them. They've also released messaging supporting the federal bump stock ban (which is really an EA telling the BATFE to reclassify what a bump stock is in a nonsensical way) and red flag laws. A significant part of the "constituency" they've been losing the last few years has been going to organizations which actually put their money where their mouth is instead of swooping in to take credit for the work of others like the 2AF, GOA, JPFO, and state organizations.

    NSDFRand on
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    I just remembered something - the NRA this past year has been making a push to go international. Which is a weird thing to do when you're in trouble financially. Were they hoping other countries were just champing at the bit to throw money away?

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    I just remembered something - the NRA this past year has been making a push to go international. Which is a weird thing to do when you're in trouble financially. Were they hoping other countries were just champing at the bit to throw money away?

    Sometimes? Like when you know you're fucked as a business a desperate expansion hoping somewhere you can strike gold can happen. Also its become apparent the people in charge of the NRA really suck at business.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    The NRA going international is just a function of the right-wings of all the countries all becoming an interconnected movement, greatly expanding grift opportunities

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    It’s pretty clear the NRA suffered from the same thing most Republican institutions do

    (Greed)

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    It’s pretty clear the NRA suffered from the same thing most Republican institutions do

    (Greed)

    Its kind of funny in a way the people you most associate with their PR campaigns like that ghoul Dana Loesch, is a grifter with from the ad agency.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    It’s pretty clear the NRA suffered from the same thing most Republican institutions do

    (Greed)

    They're a victim of their own success in a lot of ways. They've so won the gun rights argument that when a mass shooting happens, even in the case of something so evil like Sandy Hook, everyone sort of shrugs and moves on with their life. And while the US is consistently at the top of gun deaths globally and a massive outlier for gun violence in developed nations....people like LaPierre and Loesch can still book TV spots instead of being run out of town on a rail. That sort of success breeds laziness and grift. We'd all be done a huge favor if they crumbled under the weight of their own greed.

    Dark_Side on
  • knitdanknitdan In ur base Killin ur guysRegistered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    ...When has the NRA been making any concessions/compromises about gun laws? I feel like I must have missed this happening, because all I know about is them pushing bills to loosen restrictions and opposing tightening legislation of any kind.

    Most of the "loosening restrictions" has come through the courts, and they've either stayed out of it or jumped in at the last minute to claim credit, which is one of the major criticisms aimed at them. They've also released messaging supporting the federal bump stock ban (which is really an EA telling the BATFE to reclassify what a bump stock is in a nonsensical way) and red flag laws. A significant part of the "constituency" they've been losing the last few years has been going to organizations which actually put their money where their mouth is instead of swooping in to take credit for the work of others like the 2AF, GOA, JPFO, and state organizations.

    So your problem with them is they aren’t extreme enough. Good to know.

    “I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
    -Indiana Solo, runner of blades
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    The NRA always did best when it had a Democrat to fearmonger about. With a Republican in the White House they tried to rebrand as fascist footsoldiers and it didn't work great.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    knitdan wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    ...When has the NRA been making any concessions/compromises about gun laws? I feel like I must have missed this happening, because all I know about is them pushing bills to loosen restrictions and opposing tightening legislation of any kind.

    Most of the "loosening restrictions" has come through the courts, and they've either stayed out of it or jumped in at the last minute to claim credit, which is one of the major criticisms aimed at them. They've also released messaging supporting the federal bump stock ban (which is really an EA telling the BATFE to reclassify what a bump stock is in a nonsensical way) and red flag laws. A significant part of the "constituency" they've been losing the last few years has been going to organizations which actually put their money where their mouth is instead of swooping in to take credit for the work of others like the 2AF, GOA, JPFO, and state organizations.

    So your problem with them is they aren’t extreme enough. Good to know.

    Yes, I want to support an organization which actually does what it claims to do. I'm not sure what exactly your point was with this comment.

  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    If the NRA was effective, don’t you think they would have successfully lobbied for the passing of National Reciprocity with a Republican House, Senate, and Presidency?

    With that failure, they demonstrated they were not actually about advocating for the second amendment and solely about lining the pockets of their executives.

    I’ve frankly been disgusted by them for the same reasons as NSDFRand. My support goes to GOA and FPC.

    Also, Oliver North is a shitbird.

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
  • SyngyneSyngyne Registered User regular
    Wow. I turned down a job offer from Ackerman McQueen a few years ago. A friend of mine referred me to them, and it the job sounded fine until I found out I'd basically be doing code updates on the NRA's blog. I'd had no idea who their clients were before the interview.

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  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    If the NRA was effective, don’t you think they would have successfully lobbied for the passing of National Reciprocity with a Republican House, Senate, and Presidency?

    With that failure, they demonstrated they were not actually about advocating for the second amendment and solely about lining the pockets of their executives.

    I’ve frankly been disgusted by them for the same reasons as NSDFRand. My support goes to GOA and FPC.

    Also, Oliver North is a shitbird.

    I'm looking forward to the NRA potentially becoming what it says on the tin. If the GOA et al had the fundraising power and messaging of the NRA the HPA, National Reciprocity, and a repeal of the Hughes Amendment would have been actually possible.

  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    If the NRA was effective, don’t you think they would have successfully lobbied for the passing of National Reciprocity with a Republican House, Senate, and Presidency?

    With that failure, they demonstrated they were not actually about advocating for the second amendment and solely about lining the pockets of their executives.

    I’ve frankly been disgusted by them for the same reasons as NSDFRand. My support goes to GOA and FPC.

    Also, Oliver North is a shitbird.

    I'm looking forward to the NRA potentially becoming what it says on the tin. If the GOA et al had the fundraising power and messaging of the NRA the HPA, National Reciprocity, and a repeal of the Hughes Amendment would have been actually possible.

    One can dream. Combat Fuddery at every turn!

    diablo III - beardsnbeer#1508 Mechwarrior Online - Rusty Bock
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

    Smaller and more extreme gun lobbying groups with less industry backing.

    I was a member of GOA when I was still drinking the gun industry kool-aid.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    GOA = Gun Owners of America
    FPC = Firearms Policy Coalition

    For example, when the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (aka "The Brady Bill") was passed in 1993, the NRA compromised on one aspect of it. They agreed to support the bill if & only if the five-day waiting period mandated by the bill had a firm sunset date. Then the bill passed and the NRA immediately filed lawsuits against it anyway.

    GOA raked NRA over the coals for compromising at all.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

    Smaller and more extreme gun lobbying groups with less industry backing.

    I was a member of GOA when I was still drinking the gun industry kool-aid.

    I see this sentiment constantly: how exactly are the interests of the industry, who want to lawfully sell firearms, mutually exclusive from the interests of people who want to lawfully purchase firearms?

  • Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    I'll be glad to see the back of the NRA, hopefully the conversation around gun rights in the USA could swing back to somewhere near reasonable after they crash and burn.

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

    Smaller and more extreme gun lobbying groups with less industry backing.

    I was a member of GOA when I was still drinking the gun industry kool-aid.

    I see this sentiment constantly: how exactly are the interests of the industry, who want to lawfully sell firearms, mutually exclusive from the interests of people who want to lawfully purchase firearms?

    It probably isn't, but my understanding is the NRA mostly talks about the latter while acting mostly in the interests of the former.

  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

    Smaller and more extreme gun lobbying groups with less industry backing.

    I was a member of GOA when I was still drinking the gun industry kool-aid.

    I see this sentiment constantly: how exactly are the interests of the industry, who want to lawfully sell firearms, mutually exclusive from the interests of people who want to lawfully purchase firearms?

    It probably isn't, but my understanding is the NRA mostly talks about the latter while acting mostly in the interests of the former.

    But how are they different exactly?

    Manufacturers want to be able to lawfully manufacture firearms. Gun owners and potential gun owners want to be able to buy those firearms lawfully. I'm not exactly sure how those two interests are mutually exclusive much less contradictory. At this point "they're working for the industry, not for gun owners" has become a talking point with no real substance behind it.


    The problem isn't the NRA pushing back against things like "no fly, no buy" which are blatant violations of due process or bans on entire categories of common firearms but that 95%+ of their resources weren't being used to do so, among other issues they've been criticized for.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

    Smaller and more extreme gun lobbying groups with less industry backing.

    I was a member of GOA when I was still drinking the gun industry kool-aid.

    I see this sentiment constantly: how exactly are the interests of the industry, who want to lawfully sell firearms, mutually exclusive from the interests of people who want to lawfully purchase firearms?

    Even assuming that the question as phrased is meaningful (eg, that those parties really care that much about the law and that they're homogeneous groups with homogeneous interests), the purported alignment of those groups are a distant minor priority behind...

    1) Whether either group's interests are good for the country at large
    2) Whether either group is telling the truth in their arguments (hence the phrase 'kool-aid')

    But I don't think you and I are going to see eye-to-eye on either of those. Upthread, you referred to overturning the Hughes Amendment and passing National Reciprocity. Personally, I don't think loosening the restrictions on fully-automatic weapons or allowing nationwide concealed carry are particularly good ideas.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    As a Euro, can someone explain who the GOA and FPC and other such groups are and how they differ from NRA? NRA takes up all the international air in the room.

    Smaller and more extreme gun lobbying groups with less industry backing.

    I was a member of GOA when I was still drinking the gun industry kool-aid.

    I see this sentiment constantly: how exactly are the interests of the industry, who want to lawfully sell firearms, mutually exclusive from the interests of people who want to lawfully purchase firearms?

    Even assuming that the question as phrased is meaningful (eg, that those parties really care that much about the law and that they're homogeneous groups with homogeneous interests), the purported alignment of those groups are a distant minor priority behind...

    1) Whether either group's interests are good for the country at large
    2) Whether either group is telling the truth in their arguments (hence the phrase 'kool-aid')

    But I don't think you and I are going to see eye-to-eye on either of those. Upthread, you referred to overturning the Hughes Amendment and passing National Reciprocity. Personally, I don't think loosening the restrictions on fully-automatic weapons or allowing nationwide concealed carry are particularly good ideas.

    People who aren't in the industry care about the law. That interests may align doesn't make them homogeneous nor is homogeneity necessary. But I'm not sure how compelling the implied argument "the interest of the industry which want to sell X product lawfully are exclusive from the interests of people who want to purchase X product" is.

    My interest is simply in maximizing lawful access to the means of defense. As an aside, repealing the Hughes Amendment wouldn't be "loosening" restrictions on machine guns, it would simply mean the ability to add newly manufactured machine guns to the NFA registry. They would, just like machine guns, destructive devices, suppressors, short barrel rifles, short barrel shotguns, and AOWs do now, still require a tax stamp for transfer.

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