Options

[Heroes of the Storm] Coronavirus can't kill HotS if it's already dead #rollsafe

1858688909199

Posts

  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Dibby wrote: »
    I like Orphea as a character. It feels like they put a lot of effort into creating her and integrating her into the nexus story that they're trying to tell. Qhira is like the opposite. It feels to me like they just kinda lazily phoned her character in and then tossed some strong numbers on her abilities to distract from her poor backstory.

    I think they probably meant to flesh out Qhira's backstory and all but then the entire lore team got dissolved, so. Like remember how they were making the comics and shit for Orphea and they were like "we have a lore team now! we're expanding the lore of the Nexus!" and then literally nothing else ever happened with that.

    (and I think maybe that's when all the layoffs and shit happened too?)

    Honestly though it's not like the Orphea comics were even necessarily good, really. They were just kinda nothing, through and through.

    This just goes back to their main problem, which in retrospect was clearly resource allocation and feature prioritization. They were so dedicated to pumping out skins and heroes and events, and trying to implement crazy solutions like performance-based MMR, that they didn't bother fixing the main issues with the game, especially the lack of intuitive player feedback on game mechanics (see: XP orbs) and their plethora of issues with ranked play.

    I understand giving your team the empowerment and freedom to pursue the things that interest them, but given the sheer amount of content that was being pumped out (which we now understand was completely unsustainable over the long term), they could've slowed that pace down and focused on improving the core game instead, which would've had a better chance of dramatically increasing the player base. It's like when companies focus on giving people the ability to customize the look/feel of their phone but keep the phone itself shitty - no one is going to buy it because it doesn't matter how good the phone looks if you can't make a call on it. The basic point of video games is to play and have fun, and the people you are trying to grow the game with don't care about new skins and heroes so much as they care about a fair, competitive experience.

    imo there's a good amount of assumptions/guesses here being stated as fact.

    Looking back it's easy to think more designers would have been better; but design is certainly challenging and skins/heroes/events are the thing that generate direct revenue. There are probably lots of well designed games out there that don't grab a player base. From very early on I'm sure blizzard had no idea what they had in HOTS and what kind of player grabbed onto it. The initial marketing pitch - a hero brawler - when they would have hired that initial team - isn't the game they developed and have iterated away from it continually

    I think that's a very valid point - if they had decided to lean into the casual hero brawler aspect, then I think focusing on content and stuff like PvE modes would've been the right call.

    Instead, they dumped literally millions of dollars into the HGC, which meant that they wanted people to either play more ranked/competitive games or were trying to capture more of the esports/competitive player base. The former was frankly never going to happen, but the latter maybe could've worked if they had given those players a better format in which they could enjoy the game.

    Like, how much effort did they expend in trying to fix QM with all their in-game queue logic? How much effort did they expend through their balance team trying to solve QM balance issues, or even just keep QM in mind, while adjusting for ranked play (let alone high-level or competitive-level play)? If you're paying for 3 people to get a new skin in the game, then where do you get the money to pay for 3 people to update the Ranked ladder? These things have costs, sometimes hidden, that permeate everything your people are working on. In some cases you make that trade-off willingly, but in this case history has shown that they weren't quite able to thread the needle.

  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Dibby wrote: »
    From what I understood about the lore team, it was a completely separate team within the HotS team that had no impact on any other part of the game?

    I've seen people on like reddit and such saying "well the lore team means we won't get x or y game features now" but I don't quite think that really had any sort of bearing on any of that?

    I don't think the lore team was a good idea either way though. All this pomp and circumstance for like, what, even. Nothing? Nothing.



    edit: Unrelated to the lore team though and I think to @Inquisitor77's larger point, I do think HotS was trying to do too many things at once, and stretching themselves thin in the process. Pumping out what was frankly an insane amount of Heroes while also pumping out regular balance patches every 2 weeks while also putting in new skins while ALSO trying to support HGC while also trying to balance the game around HGC while also still trying to balance the game normally and having HGC wagging the tail of the normal game, while also.......................

    You get my point, I think.

    I think it sort of speaks to the core problem that HotS has had since the start and that being one of just, lack of a real core identity. They try and market as this casual game for people who dislike mobas, but then also try and chase down this hardcore side of things with HGC and professional tournaments, and it's like, okay. So what are you going for here? Cause it can't be both. And I think we saw the results of that, of being stretched thin, of trying to go out in every single different direction at once. It didn't work.

    I've been on record on these forums defending their team's ability to design their own lore and heroes. At some point, you owe it to them to build the thing that they want, especially after 2 years of nonstop grind.

    I also think that the argument they made - that they didn't siphon resources away from other features in order to support creating Orphea - is a bit of a misdirection. You have to put people on payroll. Ostensibly, there is a leadership team in place that decides how much they are going to spend on this thing called HotS. If you have $5m and you permanently dedicate an art/design team that can support creating 12 heroes a year, then you are necessarily choosing not to dedicate those resources elsewhere. Perhaps this is done at a higher level than just the HotS team (i.e., staffing allocation decisions are made company-wide rather than on a per-team basis), but at some point that decision has to be made because opportunity cost is a thing. The question of at what level that decision is made is immaterial to me, the consumer. The point is that someone made the decision to have so much art/design bandwidth that they could create a brand new hero while supposedly not having enough resources on hand to iterate quickly enough to create a good ranked system.

    And this doesn't get into the issue of hero balance, hero design, and how much time people spent just playing Orphea across Blizzard to get her into enough shape that she could be released. My basic point remains the same across all of these things - less resources dedicated to content could have meant more resources dedicated to fundamental game issues and a better ranked system. This would include, by the way, things like better in-game social tools so that people can create in-game teams and tournaments more easily. Because this game is designed to be played as a team.

  • Options
    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    Dibby wrote: »
    From what I understood about the lore team, it was a completely separate team within the HotS team that had no impact on any other part of the game?

    I've seen people on like reddit and such saying "well the lore team means we won't get x or y game features now" but I don't quite think that really had any sort of bearing on any of that?

    I don't think the lore team was a good idea either way though. All this pomp and circumstance for like, what, even. Nothing? Nothing.



    edit: Unrelated to the lore team though and I think to @Inquisitor77's larger point, I do think HotS was trying to do too many things at once, and stretching themselves thin in the process. Pumping out what was frankly an insane amount of Heroes while also pumping out regular balance patches every 2 weeks while also putting in new skins while ALSO trying to support HGC while also trying to balance the game around HGC while also still trying to balance the game normally and having HGC wagging the tail of the normal game, while also.......................

    You get my point, I think.

    I think it sort of speaks to the core problem that HotS has had since the start and that being one of just, lack of a real core identity. They try and market as this casual game for people who dislike mobas, but then also try and chase down this hardcore side of things with HGC and professional tournaments, and it's like, okay. So what are you going for here? Cause it can't be both. And I think we saw the results of that, of being stretched thin, of trying to go out in every single different direction at once. It didn't work.

    I've been on record on these forums defending their team's ability to design their own lore and heroes. At some point, you owe it to them to build the thing that they want, especially after 2 years of nonstop grind.

    Sure, I just wish it was executed better, is the thing.

    I like Orphea as a character, a lot. A lot a lot. But almost none of that came from the actual lore comics they put out, and instead all of that came from... in-game stuff instead. Her animations, her aesthetic, her personality and how that comes through the animations, etc etc.

    I just think they didn't really do her justice with those comics, is all. I wish it ended up being better than it was.

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Options
    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Now I've only played a handful of games of dota - but I've certainly heard a number of hots personalities talk about the lead designer icefrog with admiration. Having a lead designer that has an overarching vision for how to balance and lead where the game is going through balance patches seems like it's one of those things that's really hard to find; hire for and cultivate.

    Just hiring more people to create well thought out systems is hard and maybe all luck really - hiring artists is seems so much easier to justify when it all produces content you can attach a value to

    PSN SeGaTai
  • Options
    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited April 2020
    PTR is updating. New loading screen is up:

    M8QPxuU.png?1

    DARK NEXUS 2 BABY LET'S GOOOOOOO. Hoo baby those look hot.

    Tass rework confirmed? They do like to give newly reworked Heroes new skins to coincide with their rework....

    Dibby on
    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Options
    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Big evil crystal dragon would be great

    PSN SeGaTai
  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    DARK NEXUS TWO
    ELECTRIC BOOGALOO

  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    edited April 2020
    HOLY FUCK THESE PATCH NOTES
    REVENGE OF THE STRUCTURES
    CORES GONNA KNOCK YOU OUT

    milk ducks on
  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    edited April 2020
    Tass rework:

    Force Wall now a basic ability

    Among other things obviously

    milk ducks on
  • Options
    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    HOLY FUCK THESE PATCH NOTES
    REVENGE OF THE STRUCTURES
    CORES GONNA KNOCK YOU OUT

    ????

    Link please

    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Patch notes. Uhhh some big changes. https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/heroes-of-the-storm/23367312/heroes-of-the-storm-ptr-patch-notes-april-6-2020

    Forts no longer slow. All buildings will lower armor instead when you take damage from them. ALSO buildings will attack you, regardless of the minions you have with you, if you attack an enemy hero in their range. If you just target the building, they still will prioritize minions. So, sieging is mostly unchanged, but full-on teamfights at the enemy building are not as safe. Or maybe more safe? Depends on how the slow vs armor reduction trade happens.

    Cores now do "unique" things but it's all basically the same thing, damage and some CC.

    aaaaand the Tass rework! My first impression is that so much of his new kit is centered around Tass getting to auto-attack someone so that he can charge it up. In an extended teamfight where you let Tass charge up his AA, you are dead because he has a bunch of talents and abilities that synergize with it. Not sure how strong he is vs teams that don't let him do that though.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    I'm VERY pleased with the proposed Structure changes. They always felt like a liability rather than, yknow, actually being threatening. The only thing I'm not okay with is losing the slow from Forts/Keeps. That was actually pretty important. Ah well. I'm excited to try it out! It also means winning the lane is that much more important since you'll be getting damage on the structures.

    Tass rework looks great. As someone who was already slamming out AA Tass games left and right this shouldn't be much of an adjustment on my part I think. Except they did remove the insane lifesteal shields and the get out of jail free button........ No more greedy turreting, booooo. I wonder how "long range" we're talking about with his AA though.

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Options
    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    1KB3j0P.jpg

    Oh damn Dark Nexus Deathwing is fucking hot

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Options
    GroveGrove Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    Yes! I've been wanting these Tower changes.

    Selling PS3 & 360 Madcatz TE Stick
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Finally a good skin for DW :D

    tbh though I'm not sure about the building changes. I don't understand how they felt like a liability. Either you clear the wave and fight, or you regret your hero choices and run away :P

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Tass also had to pick activated map reveal or invisibly, no longer base abilities and compete with each other and a throughput talent.

    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Not having read the patch notes, based on what people have described here I assume that this means coordinated teams will once again be better at sieging because you will make sure that your tank is the first hero that hits a structure within its range.

    I'm also curious what this means to minions - particularly the melee ones - and their value during a siege.

  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Being partway through the patch notes, it's pretty jarring to see just how many battlegrounds they've released. And those are just the ones that are still playable...

  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited April 2020
    Dibby wrote: »
    1KB3j0P.jpg

    Oh damn Dark Nexus Deathwing is fucking hot


    I wish his flame was a different color... maybe more red-ish and had crystal shards going as well or something

    like, blue-flame DW would be legit
    green-flame, etc.


    much like the different diablo skins that change his fire colors

    MMMig on
    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Not having read the patch notes, based on what people have described here I assume that this means coordinated teams will once again be better at sieging because you will make sure that your tank is the first hero that hits a structure within its range.

    I'm also curious what this means to minions - particularly the melee ones - and their value during a siege.

    Your tank would be the first hero to hit a Hero within the structure's range. Hitting the structure has had no change to the behavior.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Not having read the patch notes, based on what people have described here I assume that this means coordinated teams will once again be better at sieging because you will make sure that your tank is the first hero that hits a structure within its range.

    I'm also curious what this means to minions - particularly the melee ones - and their value during a siege.

    Your tank would be the first hero to hit a Hero within the structure's range. Hitting the structure has had no change to the behavior.

    Ah yeah, typo - if someone is actively defending then teams will just wait outside structure range and poke until their tank shows up. It does incentivize showing up to defend buildings, too, which is kind of interesting. A hero on their own can siege just fine if you aren't there to defend, but if you're standing there making them attack you then they will start eating damage pretty fast.

  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    edited April 2020
    Like, blue-flame DW would be legit
    green-flame, etc.

    If DW got new flame colors before Ragnaros, I'd burn this thread to the ground.

    With red/orange/yellow fire, of course.

    milk ducks on
  • Options
    MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Thrall has new flame colours.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • Options
    Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    uhh is the Heroes of the Wang channel a thing still

  • Options
    kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    uhh is the Heroes of the Wang channel a thing still

    It exists. I honestly can't even remember if I'm still a member, there's a limit to being in 5 channels at a time and I joined others with more active/current groups. 95% of the people I ever played with that still play the game I connect with via other ways than that channel.

    I remember it used to be (and still is?) super duper quiet.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • Options
    InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    uhh is the Heroes of the Wang channel a thing still

    It exists. I honestly can't even remember if I'm still a member, there's a limit to being in 5 channels at a time and I joined others with more active/current groups. 95% of the people I ever played with that still play the game I connect with via other ways than that channel.

    I remember it used to be (and still is?) super duper quiet.

    I am still in it and I do not remember the last time someone spoke in it, though there is usually only two or three people so not speaking is perhaps unsurprising.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
  • Options
    fortyforty Registered User regular
    The channel still exists but it tends to be very quiet. People will occasionally use it for invites, though.

  • Options
    fortyforty Registered User regular
    I don't have time to look at the patch notes. Is this the one with the AI changes?

  • Options
    ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    I don't have time to look at the patch notes. Is this the one with the AI changes?

    AI changes, towers/keeps prioritize heroes if there's a teamfight going on (triggered by attacking a hero that's within range, but not a structure, so nothing changes if it's an uncontested push) and cores will all have some kind of unique boss-like attacks like the Altarak cores do.

    ztrEPtD.gif
  • Options
    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    uhh is the Heroes of the Wang channel a thing still

    I'm in it. In log on i always ask if someone wants to group. 99.9% of the time i get crickets, even if there are others in the channel at the time.

    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    InvictusInvictus Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    uhh is the Heroes of the Wang channel a thing still

    I'm in it. In log on i always ask if someone wants to group. 99.9% of the time i get crickets, even if there are others in the channel at the time.

    Yeah, if I remember correctly I've seen you ask about QM? I usually wanna draft, which is why I don't respond.

    Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
  • Options
    Lucid_SeraphLucid_Seraph TealDeer MarylandRegistered User regular
    OBSERVATIONS:

    Getting the hang of individual characters? fine! In fact, I can still dive heal as Brightwing *real good* (though shield has changed as a mechanic???? what is happening)

    Getting the hang of Flow and When to Be With Team and When NOT to be With Team? Afjdlfjdljfldkjfdlkjfldsajflk

  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    OBSERVATIONS:

    Getting the hang of individual characters? fine! In fact, I can still dive heal as Brightwing *real good* (though shield has changed as a mechanic???? what is happening)

    Getting the hang of Flow and When to Be With Team and When NOT to be With Team? Afjdlfjdljfldkjfdlkjfldsajflk

    Macro decisions are just as important and oftentimes much harder to learn than micro decisions.


    In a lot of our scrims vs teams of GMs, one of the biggest things I noticed is when we would collapse as 5 to gank they would already be responding by taking a fort as 4.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Also is the Tassadar rework taking the place of what would normally be a new hero announcement?

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    Also is the Tassadar rework taking the place of what would normally be a new hero announcement?

    No. The way the releases work now it goes New Hero -> Rework -> New Hero

    So we got Deathwing, Tassadar is our Rework, the next Thing will be a new hero in like 3 months prob

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Options
    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Dibby wrote: »
    Also is the Tassadar rework taking the place of what would normally be a new hero announcement?

    No. The way the releases work now it goes New Hero -> Rework -> New Hero

    So we got Deathwing, Tassadar is our Rework, the next Thing will be a new hero in like 3 months prob

    We got a Xul rework a few weeks ago, and I didn't hear anything about them changing it from 4 heroes a year to 2, so it kinda feels like it is?

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Options
    DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited April 2020
    Dibby wrote: »
    Also is the Tassadar rework taking the place of what would normally be a new hero announcement?

    No. The way the releases work now it goes New Hero -> Rework -> New Hero

    So we got Deathwing, Tassadar is our Rework, the next Thing will be a new hero in like 3 months prob

    We got a Xul rework a few weeks ago, and I didn't hear anything about them changing it from 4 heroes a year to 2, so it kinda feels like it is?

    Xul was a classified as a minor rework, not a major rework. It came alongside a balance patch, and this one had nothing else with it.

    Also, they very much made it clear that this was how the new cadence was going to work. They were very clear about that, they made several posts about how it would be New Hero -> Rework -> New Hero.

    I was exaggerating when I said "3 months prob", like it obviously won't be that long, but.

    Dibby on
    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Options
    milk ducksmilk ducks High Mucky Muck Big Tits TownRegistered User regular
    Hypothetical fantasy team line-up --

    Mephisto with Malicious Intent (+25% Spellpower after casting Shade)
    Ana with Nano Boost (+30% Spellpower to ally)
    Varian with Banner of Dalaran (+20% Spellpower to allies within its radius)
    Tassadar with Khala's Gift (Gain 4% Spellpower for every ally within radius, and share that Spellpower with them, up to 20%)
    Whatever Tank you need.

    Team gathers up, in their base if need be - Ana Nano Boosts Mephisto, Varian drops his Banner, then Mephisto uses Shade and pops Consume Souls, which gains 95% bonus Spellpower. If it scores even one pick, it casts again, this time dealing bonus damage equal to 10% of each target's missing health due to level 20 Consumed by Hatred. ggwp.

  • Options
    SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Or varian can take taunt and your 5th pick is just yolo

    PSN SeGaTai
Sign In or Register to comment.