[Heroes of the Storm] Coronavirus can't kill HotS if it's already dead #rollsafe

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    This may be the first time I've ever broken three-hundred-thousand damage.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Jesus, how long was the game?

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    Let me put it this way: I would rather have an oatmeal raisin cookie than any other kind of cookie. And I regard the distance between the quality and taste of oatmeal raisin and any other type of cookie as too great to appropriately measure. And I will not be moved on this issue.

    Report this potato for his Wood League 5 opinions.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Ive been watching a lot of Fan’s Mephisto games lately and his build/damage output is insane. Granted, it’s Fan, but even I was making it work at my level. The build if anyone cares:

    Furious Spark, Spite, Frost Storm, Durance of Hate, Shard of Hate, Static Field, Mimic

    The idea is that Meph becomes a cooldown machine. As long you have a Globe and your W is hitting things, you’re cooldowns are super low. Just watching a team fight, his abilities are refreshing like mad. The damage output is insane. Post 20 Mimic makes sieging insane as well.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Jesus, how long was the game?

    Standard match length, I guess; roundabout 30 minutes. Both teams were running double-support comps (we had Stukov and Deckard, they had Lucio and Uther), so it was really just that both teams had really strong sustained healing output and nobody would ever die. I was able to absolutely layer on the damage to their entire team, but we couldn't actually finish anyone off. Ordinarily, empowered Consume Souls would do the trick, but they'd Sound Barrier every cast. And if I waited out the Sound Barrier for someone to get low, they'd Divine Shield. So we had to force out both cooldowns in a tight window, then burn someone down to kill-shot territory, and only then would I have a chance at a reset. Fucking tough line to walk, lol. Turning point in the match was a late-game engagement at their Core that went super badly for us, actually -- they took out 3 of our players, then chased us hard. One of their Assassins was right on our asses, out of range of his teammates, so I jumped back into him and poured on the damage, putting him low enough that Consume Souls scored the pick because his Healers weren't within range to save him. That led to a reset that scored a second kill, as I recall, and then we rallied.

    Smrtnik
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
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    Tried out Tass's W build today.

    It seems.... decent? It seems decent. I mean, I was still getting kills and shit, so, yknow. But it also kiiiiinda felt like I was a slight bit ineffective, somehow. Or perhaps I felt less effective compared to Q build. I definitely missed not having Thermal.

    It's fine, though. It's very safe, the extra W range is nice, but... Yeah, dunno. It also doesn't feel like anything special, I guess. I'd rather just run Q build.

    I also took Black Hole this game and.... well, oof. I whiffed it spectacularly for the most part. Either that or every time I walked up to try and get it off I'd eat an Impy Q to the face, so. There were a few good ones, I suppose, but eh.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Won 3-in-a-row tonight which felt good after losing 4-in-a-row over the last few days. Currently running a 64% win rate with Rag and 84% with Xul, even though he's often banned. Wish I got get Xul more often. :biggrin:

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Artanis’ new AA talent at 1 felt a bit underwhelming. Granted I only tried out 2 QM games, one of which featured our team having 4 melee vs all range, so that may not have been the best metric.

    Waiting for the inevitable Fan game where he stacks through the roof and deletes people. “We’re stacking out of our minds baby!”

    Well, here's that game!


    524 stacks in 12 minutes?! WTF Fan!! For perspective, I think I got around 150 in each of my two games.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Ive been watching a lot of Fan’s Mephisto games lately and his build/damage output is insane. Granted, it’s Fan, but even I was making it work at my level. The build if anyone cares:

    Furious Spark, Spite, Frost Storm, Durance of Hate, Shard of Hate, Static Field, Mimic

    The idea is that Meph becomes a cooldown machine. As long you have a Globe and your W is hitting things, you’re cooldowns are super low. Just watching a team fight, his abilities are refreshing like mad. The damage output is insane. Post 20 Mimic makes sieging insane as well.

    That's my build! That's the build I've been harping since W build got buffed!

    MY BUILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLD

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Ive been watching a lot of Fan’s Mephisto games lately and his build/damage output is insane. Granted, it’s Fan, but even I was making it work at my level. The build if anyone cares:

    Furious Spark, Spite, Frost Storm, Durance of Hate, Shard of Hate, Static Field, Mimic

    The idea is that Meph becomes a cooldown machine. As long you have a Globe and your W is hitting things, you’re cooldowns are super low. Just watching a team fight, his abilities are refreshing like mad. The damage output is insane. Post 20 Mimic makes sieging insane as well.

    That's my build! That's the build I've been harping since W build got buffed!

    MY BUILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLD

    In order to claim the build, you must defeat Fan. So, it’s Fan’s build.

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    I'm sure W build is great if you can use it well, but when I play Mephisto I just have too much fun going all-in on my dum dum Heroic spam.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular


    I can’t decide what was more beautiful, the hyper carry Aba or the Probius/Dehaka trap.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    hyper-carry Abathur is one of my favorite things I've seen :D

    As you said the the Probe-Dehaka team was good too!

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 21
    My team was full of salty potatoes on Braxis, with Muradin being the Salt Master. Our Li Li didn't ban so the enemy team got KT, who killed Muradin twice before the first beacon phase. With that, here are some of the best comments all game:
    • Mura, after dying again after Dwarf Tossing into a Stitches Gorge 2v4. "Rag! Do you know how to fight?!"
    • Mura again "I have more damage than Rag and Tass!" - he went damage build (with Punch ult) for some reason
    • Li Li after I lava wave an unsoaked bot lane: "Lava before Zerg?!" I had Molten Core and it was the first Zerg
    • Me running out of pings on our 4-camp being stolen by Thrall/Deckard while Li Li and Mura are inches away. Nobody comes. Camp stolen.
    • "WTF are you doing Rag? They took our camp!"
    • Mura: This team sucks! Just let it end. GG. Let them win.
    • Me after we lose 2 Zerg waves but have a structure advantage because of Molten/Lava: "We're fine. Look at the map."
    • "You have no damage Rag."
    • After winning a post-16 team fight. Zul: This team is so heavy.
    • Me after getting MVP: Yup! XP/Mercs > fighting
    • Team: Bullshit! You HAVE to fight sometimes and you were never there!
    • Mura: XP don't mean anything if you don't win objectives
    • Mura: Such Silver trash!

    OK, ready for the not-surprising-at-all score screen?

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    MNC Dover on
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  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    It prob is best to mute all...

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    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 21
    milk ducks wrote: »
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    Oh I know. My favorite comment after games like that is something like:

    “GG”
    “Glad nobody got salty and gave up early”

    Gets ‘em every time.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    The HotS team is looking for feedback on their recent Tower changes. Long read below:
    Hello fellow Heroes!

    The Heroes Design team has been hard at work on our next seasonal content, including deciding what to do with the Call for Help Nexus Anomaly. We’re looking for feedback, and we wanted to take the time to give you some heavy insight into our thoughts, so strap yourselves in, this is going to be a doozy!

    Firstly, we have already decided that we like what the changes to the Kings Core have brought to our game, and we want to keep those. We believe they give our maps a unique flavor and they add some cool moments to games. This article will be focused solely on the more controversial changes that were made to Towers, Forts, and Keeps in regards to how they interact with enemy Heroes. We think a good place to start is with what our goals were when we changed the Tower Aggro system.

    We had two major goals with the system:

    We wanted players to feel like their Towers were “smart” about how they tried to protect members of their team. We have heard lots of feedback over the years that it’s frustrating that Towers will prioritize a nearby minion while an allied Hero is being attacked, and that this felt unintuitive, resulting in players being upset with their own structures for not helping them out.
    We wanted to create more interesting back and forth gameplay between Heroes in both Tower diving and town defense situations. Before this change, the defending team’s counter-play was to try to cast AoE abilities on enemy Minions so that they would die, effectively enabling their Towers to target the diving Heroes and protect them.
    We want to also point out that while the first point may not seem like much, it is a fairly big deal, and was the initial primary motivator for changing Tower aggro. It’s important when playing games that they “feel” right, and when they don’t it can be a big deterrent to player enjoyment. It’s why we spend a lot of time and effort on high quality visual effects, sound effects, models, animations, and creating counter-play through proper design. It’s all related, and we believe that games become great works of art when things feel like they’re all working together in a cohesive and awesome way.

    Where We Are

    Let’s talk about how we feel about where things currently stand. We had recently made the decision to pull out all of the Tower aggro changes, and our recent playtests have had them removed in preparation for the next Anomaly. The team didn’t feel that it was a clear enough win due to some design concerns which we will discuss later, and due to how controversial the changes have been overall. We’re committed to only keeping Anomalies that we truly believe are better for the game as a whole, and since we were also incredibly torn on this issue, we had decided to remove it.

    Then something interesting happened. Once we had removed the system, we started getting feedback from across the team that this was the wrong decision, and that the Tower aggro changes, although they had some issues, made the game, overall, feel much better. We ourselves also noticed that the games just felt better with the system on, which caused us to go back and ask ourselves: “are we making the right decision by taking this away?”

    After lots of debate, we’re still torn on the how we want to proceed. We need to make a call soon, so we’re asking for some feedback from you to help us decide. In the next and final section of this post, we’re going to outline what we like about the current system, what we don’t like, and some proposed changes to improve the system if we decide to keep it.

    What We Like

    We believe we succeeded in Towers feeling smarter as a defending player. They “feel” like they’re doing what they should be
    We believe we’ve created cool, high-tension moments when enemy Heroes dive under a Tower. We also like how attackers have some ability to manipulate who gets the Tower aggro to make intelligent, coordinated plays. We believe this can be even better with improvements in the future
    The combination on our end of being able to manipulate Tower damage and the stacking Armor debuff gives us a lot of room to manipulate exactly how we want these interactions to feel going forward, and gives us good tuning knobs to decide how much defensive power is from the Tower itself or from the nearby enemy Heroes who are there to defend it
    Issues With The Current System

    We believe Towers are currently too punishing to consistently create the cool, high-tension moments we described above. They currently hit too hard to make those moments happen as often or as long as we’d like them to
    Many players don’t like how much they have to change their behavior when near enemy Towers, particularly the ones near the Gates, mainly due to splash damage inadvertently causing Towers to attack them
    A lot of the map is now more dangerous than before, making it less possible to fight enemy Heroes, particularly in the early game. This exacerbates issues we already have with our desire to make the laning phase of the game more interesting
    When too powerful (which we believe it currently is), it disincentivizes players from pushing with their map objectives, which can make those moments feel less awesome
    Some players just like the way things have been for years, and don’t want such a large change to a fundamental aspect of the game. While not a commanding reason to never make changes, it is something we always try to keep in mind, and why we think the bar needs to be high in order to keep these kinds of fundamental changes to game systems
    Now that we’ve covered where we’re at, here are some potential ideas that we have been debating to help make things better if we decide to keep the changes. We could end up doing none of these or all of them, and we’re open to other ideas from you!

    Change all structures to prioritize Map Objectives before anything else
    Pros

    It would fix players not wanting to push with Map Objectives
    Cons

    It adds another rule that can be unintuitive for the defending players since they will not always be defended by their Towers, only most of the time, which can be confusing and goes against the primary goal of Towers “feeling” smart in how they work
    Towers don’t defend their teammates in the moments of the game when they need them most
    Change Tower aggro so that the front Towers prioritize Minions, but the Forts, Keeps, and Kings Core prioritize Heroes who attack other Heroes
    Pros

    The early game would better reward aggression and pushing, and less of the map would be as dangerous as it currently is with the new system
    Players could attack gates without feeling like their splash damage could get them into trouble
    Cons

    It adds complexity to the game with two different Aggro rules depending on the Structure

    Lower the damage that Structures do to Heroes
    Pros

    Towers won’t be as directly threatening themselves, which mitigates the issue of them being too punishing in the early game
    Players will have more time to be aggressive with Tower diving and less immediately punished when Towers initially start to shoot them
    It puts the onus of properly defending towns more on the defending team, which incentivizes interaction between heroes
    Cons

    It makes Towers weaker, which could result in Tower diving being too prevalent.

    These are our thoughts on the current Anomaly. Thanks again for taking the time to read through our ideas. We’re now looking for feedback on how you feel about the current system, whether or not you would like to go back to the old system and why, or other ideas on how to improve the current one. We want to make a choice in the near future about what to do, so please be a Hero and give us your feedback – it will greatly help us in our tireless pursuit of constantly improving this game that we all love playing together.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Not sure I buy all of the arguments (there is an unspoken question of WHICH players they are getting feedback from, and I have a feeling that they are prioritizing new players over existing ones, and they are taking all feedback as equivalent even if they come from QM clownfiesta). But it all makes sense.

    Dear Blizzard:

    (1) If you absolutely need to make defenses "feel more safe", then just make towers prioritize heroes over everything else except Objectives. This makes intuitive sense to all players. They want the Objective. They want to push with it. They will not complain when they push with an objective and take no tower damage. Towers hitting the Objective makes Complete and Total Sense. Tower Aggro should be: Objectives -> Heroes -> Objects/Minions

    (2) Make towers hurt heroes less. Consider just reverting the damage/armor change altogether and going back to damage+slow. Adding an armor debuff actively goes against everything you've most recently argued about armor changes and debuffs and player information clutter, too.

    (3) If necessary to adjust game balance, make towers hurt minions more.


    This is how it will play out:
    • Boiled Potatoes will ignore towers and die to random shit like they do already because they are Boiled Potatoes.
    • Mid-level Mashed Potatoes will avoid towers entirely because they think the warning sound and the damage they take is Important, which will make their Defender Boiled Potato counterparts feel "safe". But they will "intuitively" know that towers = bad for attackers and towers = good for defenders in the majority of cases.
    • High-level Hasselback Potatoes will know, like they do now, that towers are only as "safe" as they were threatening - if you don't die, then it's safe. If they die and you don't die, then that's a skill check. If someone thinks they are always 100% safe under towers, then they are failing a skill check. Assessing damage and threat are skills. Making towers more dangerous does not change those skills, it only changes the spectrum under which those skills can be leveraged.
    • If a Boiled/Mashed Potato plays against a Hasselback Potato and they die under a tower, then they are more likely to lose the game. This is the Correct Outcome.

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  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    I actually really liked this anomaly and it made me disheartened to see people on Reddit etc complaining so much about it. So, I'm glad they decided to not just remove it wholesale. Towers and Forts are threatening as fuck now and you HAVE to respect them.

    And I think maybe that's where the disconnect was coming from, players were not respecting them and then got punished appropriately trying to do business as usual when that simply does not work anymore.

    And so you had these players who were unwilling to adapt to the new structure damage, who just kept wanting to dive someone for free behind their towers and fort, and they couldn't do that anymore without getting punished. And so they complained.

    I guarantee if this system was in from the start, no one would've complained. It's literally a case of "change is scary and bad and i can't do the thing i used to be able to do anymore". That's it. Because the new Structures feel fucking GOOD. I like that they actually defend players and drive off attackers. That never happened before. A minion wave would walk up and they'd just run up and bop you, for free, and there was nothing you could do about it.

    So yeah I don't have much sympathy for the Illidans posting on Reddit that they can no longer dive behind towers and kill people while taking tower fire.

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Our Li Li didn't ban so the enemy team got KT
    42dceo.jpg

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    KT = Kael'thas
    KTZ = Kel'thuzad

    This is known.

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  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Just soliciting feedback wholesale from reddit feels like it will get them nowhere - the comments are all over the place, very self selecting; and for the devs reading them - they'll only remember reading the ones they self-identify with - but at least it shows they are aware the tower changes need more fine tuning and this is likely cover to tweak them one more time before they would consider dropping them.

    The armor debuff is too strong - and there are various ways to deal with it - go back to the slow and ditch the debuff as suggested above; give it one warning shot basically before a debuff is applied; or it needs to not be a flat armor debuff - but just make it so every consecutive tower shot does more damage to you.

    The armor debuff as current not only makes towers real scary but empowers the defending team if they are capable of focus firing on the targeted hero. It's not intuitive for the player base to learn what they can get away with still diving towers or pushing with an objective; because it's not just thinking about taking a 2-3 towers shots then getting out - but if the other team is capable of pushing buttons in that window

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Well.

    After fixing my computer problems by buying a new power supply, my computer is dying again.

    Except I am unable to fix it this time by lowering my graphical settings.

    My computer is old but whoops I am on disability and can’t afford to build a new one. That power supply was literally my disability payment for a month.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Our Li Li didn't ban so the enemy team got KT
    42dceo.jpg

    It’s Silver league so it’s always Kael’Thas. He’s god-tier because people don’t spread out. Kel’thuzad requires skill so he’s never seen at this level...and if he is, he’s either awful or a smurf wrecking.

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  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    There's actually one prime example that happened to me in a game that I look at as 100% in favor of this anomaly.

    So, I'm playing on a squishy no-escape Mage. Tassadar, maybe. Nazeebo? I can't remember, it doesn't matter. I am retreating. An enemy dive assassin is chasing me (honestly, I don't remember who, maybe it was Tracer?). I run to my Fort. They dive me underneath it. They BLAT BLAT BLAT me and I am playing fucking ring around the rosie with this Fort. Trying to keep JUST out of range of them. I get LOW. I NEARLY fucking die. I do not, because the Fort was BLAT BLAT BLATing them harder. And they run off, dejected and defeated and without a kill. I did not die. They did not die. But right then and there, they knew: They can't do that shit. And I knew: I got lucky in that I didn't die (literally had <5% health left!), but my chance to not die went from 0% to NOT 0% just by being under my Fort.

    In the old system, the enemy assassin would've just walked right up to me gunned me down and I wouldn't have been able to do shit about it. Yeah, being under my Fort isn't an automatic safe zone, it's not a 100% guarantee that I'll not die, but it sure as hell raises my chances and it sure as fuck drives off would-be divers that get way too fucking cocky.

    And that's honestly why I like it, because it does aid in driving off attackers/divers. It is not an automatic safe zone, but it will help to protect you, which is something structures should do!

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  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    I mean or your team could do that

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I like the anomaly.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Bring back ammo and talents to drain it faster, imo

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Bring back ammo and talents to drain it faster, imo

    I don't seem to be able to keep a consistent opinion on ammo lol

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  • GroveGrove Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    Turned around a massive losing effort on Towers today with Blackhole ult. Twice. Won the game for us when we had 4 points on our core left and the enemy team had 24.

    I love that ult. Blackhole + Damage Wall + Psionic Storm or whatever it's called + Laser Beam Finger Attack = Instant 4 man wipe. It was a thing of beauty...twice.

    (To be fair to the enemy team, I had two epic sneaks in a row to lay them open with that combo)

    In SL too which was worth almost 500 points. Winky face

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Bring back ammo and talents to drain it faster, imo
    Time for the Erik meta.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    edited May 22
    I think the current Tower / Structure changes are fucking stupid. It's created this weird interplay in which I'm perfectly capable, as an Attacking player, of pushing up against enemy bases, so long as I make sure I don't hit the opposing players. Because if I do, my push basically ends. So I have to be really careful that any AoE I throw out doesn't accidentally clip enemy players. Conversely, as a Defending player, I want enemies to hit me during a push. I want to get tagged by their abilities, because then those players are immediately forced away. So I'm like, trying to walk in and get clipped by a Johanna's Condemn, or juke into a Zul'Jin's Twin Cleave and shit.


    And it just feels fucking dumb and counter-intuitive.

    milk ducks on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I think the tower/fort changes are good! Personally

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  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited May 22
    It seems to be better now.

    forty on
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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    forty wrote: »
    It seems to be better now.

    The fact that towers can actually, you know, defend you against threats is a huge improvement.

    Whereas before Anub could just poop out beetles and you'd be SoL as his entire team dove safely to kill you then safely out.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Yeah, it was pretty cool when Anub'arak had some unique functionality that allowed his team to be aggressive under enemy defenses.

  • GroveGrove Los AngelesRegistered User regular
    Yeah I much prefer the tower/fort changes. Much more enjoyable and dynamic than the old system. I hope they keep a version of it. The old set up was stale and boring and neutered.

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  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I think if they got rid of the armor shred but kept the slow I'd enjoy it more. I like the idea of towers being aggressive towards enemy players, but I don't like getting punished so HARD for the reasons ducks listed. I'd prefer it be added defenses rather than added offenses. Make it feel like a haven rather than backup artillery.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    edited May 22
    I unironically want Ammo to return as structure mechanic. I want minion-based heroes (Azmodan, Nazeebo, Xul) to be able to wear Defenses down over time by overwhelming them with additional targets. I want Supports to gain functionality related to restoring Structure Ammo. I want it to be a game mechanic that encourages the emergence of new strategies, drafts, and metas. The current iteration of structure design has no soul, and encourages awkward, counterintuitive gameplay / player choices.

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