[Heroes of the Storm] Coronavirus can't kill HotS if it's already dead #rollsafe

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    THE CALL WAS MADE
    THE PACT WAS SEALED

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    First 2 games in months.

    Kael, good times. Did some late game shotcalling & cat herding to pull a win out of the pit.

    2nd game was Blackhearts Bay. I came in as murky. Other player was nazeebo. I dont remember who the other 3 where because it didn't matter.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
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    FUCK

    YES

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    Just because I see the issue pop up a lot in my games, I wanted to talk for a bit about what to do when you're in an unfavorable matchup in the solo lane: basically, it's okay. The truth is, sometimes, you get out-drafted, or you get surprised by an offlane choice, or you're in QM so you're at the mercy of the gods with regard to who you're up against (could be somebody completely unsuited to the role, could be someone custom-built for it, who knows?!), or you're simply getting rotated on constantly. That's okay.

    I'll use an example from the other day, just because it's fresh in my mind: Munkus was our offlane on Braxis as Ragnaros, versus a Lunara. That's a matchup that's heavily in Lunara's favor, frankly; she'll keep vision on you with her Wisp, and if you try to close the gap in any meaningful way, she'll slow you down and light you up. Additionally, the other team had a Genji in their 4-man, meaning even if you found yourself with the upper hand, Genji could double-jump over the walls and be on you within an instant with a full rotation from the bottom lane. There's genuinely no realistic way to win that lane. And that's okay, you don't have to.

    What ended up happening was that Munkus tried to trade with Lunara, got killed, then returned to lane, got rotated on by Genji, and killed again. Then he called for a swap. He ended up joining the 4-man and I got relegated, as Raynor, to the top lane instead. Raynor has less mobility, arguably less sustain, and far less waveclear than Ragnaros. I didn't argue with the call, I just went to the lane and made it work. Raynor has the benefit of being ranged, sure, so I can try to walk up and trade with Lunara, but I'm just as susceptible to getting rotated on by the Genji, so there was no realistic expectation that I'd ever be able to win top lane, either.

    The point I'm trying to make with all this is that the rotation never needed to happen in the first place. Sometimes, you're going to lose a lane. It's a fact of life. Most of the time, that doesn't even amount to much. On Braxis, sure, it means you won't ever really be able to control the objective. And it means you have to hope your 4-man can hold theirs, instead. What Ragnaros needed to do in that situation was to just let Lunara clear his wave and push toward his towers. Ragnaros can then immediately clear her wave when they crash into his gates with his clear-combo. She won't be able to attack him because he's under / behind his towers, Genji won't ever have an opportunity to gank him, he won't lose any XP, and he won't take much in the way of structural damage because he'll instantly clear the wave when it comes up to his towers and Lunara won't have time to DoT everything up.

    That's literally all that needs to be done.

    In the past few days, for whatever reason, I've found myself in the offlane against Probe repeatedly. And it sucks. It sucks out loud, particularly when I'm on a low-clear Bruiser like Imperius. In those situations, all I can really do is hold on to my ass and try not to get run over. The upside of that scenario is that, because Probe pushes so hard, it's constantly out of position and open to ganks, so you can call for one from your teammates but just understand that it might not happen. If you can't get a teammate to come gank it, call for a healer to come top you up between taps. You can make it happen.

    Just understand that sometimes, you can't play to win. Recognize when those situations are, then shift your expectations, priorities, and strategies accordingly. If you can't play to win a lane, that's cool; you can always instead play to not lose. And oftentimes, that works just as well.

    DibbyInquisitor77kime
  • finnithfinnith TorontoRegistered User regular
    The nice thing about playing poorly is that you have good friends who can carry you. And other times you get a person who just walks into the enemy team pressing q.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    finnith wrote: »
    The nice thing about playing poorly is that you have good friends who can carry you. And other times you get a person who just walks into the enemy team pressing q.

    Yeah, the fucked up thing about that match was that we had it by the ass if our rando 5th on Mal'ganis (with his whopping 42% career win rate overall) hadn't fed relentlessly. I was holding my own in the offlane as Firebat against the Probe, and it was actually working out. Sure, I couldn't leave without sacrificing my towers, but it wasn't until around level 11-12 that he started actually gaining ground on me. When he pushed up deep that one time, I very nearly killed him from full by diving in with all of my cooldowns ready (and would have, if I'd have landed that second Oil Spill). So that was a frustrating error on my part. Still, pushed him out and (briefly) saved that Keep.

    Speaking of Firebat, I've been working on playing Tanks in the offlane recently. I'm in favor of double-tank camps, and always have been. I'm a pretty conservative player who really just looks for strong waveclear and CC in comps. Having a second tank allows you to muscle in on people, and it brings that little extra CC to a fight that oftentimes a Bruiser doesn't. So, I had initially been playing Arthas, and I do like him in that position in certain matchups but the reality is that he just doesn't clear quickly enough. So he's really weak against fast wave-clear, and I don't like that. Instead, I'm going to start placing more of an emphasis on Firebat. He has good self-sustain, strong wave-clear potential, brings a ton of CC to a fight, and has a kit that I think is pretty strong by default.

  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular

    A protected ETC can still get stunned / displaced out of mosh, right?

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    SeGaTai
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    The nice thing about playing poorly is that you have good friends who can carry you. And other times you get a person who just walks into the enemy team pressing q.

    Yeah, the fucked up thing about that match was that we had it by the ass if our rando 5th on Mal'ganis (with his whopping 42% career win rate overall) hadn't fed relentlessly. I was holding my own in the offlane as Firebat against the Probe, and it was actually working out. Sure, I couldn't leave without sacrificing my towers, but it wasn't until around level 11-12 that he started actually gaining ground on me. When he pushed up deep that one time, I very nearly killed him from full by diving in with all of my cooldowns ready (and would have, if I'd have landed that second Oil Spill). So that was a frustrating error on my part. Still, pushed him out and (briefly) saved that Keep.

    Speaking of Firebat, I've been working on playing Tanks in the offlane recently. I'm in favor of double-tank camps, and always have been. I'm a pretty conservative player who really just looks for strong waveclear and CC in comps. Having a second tank allows you to muscle in on people, and it brings that little extra CC to a fight that oftentimes a Bruiser doesn't. So, I had initially been playing Arthas, and I do like him in that position in certain matchups but the reality is that he just doesn't clear quickly enough. So he's really weak against fast wave-clear, and I don't like that. Instead, I'm going to start placing more of an emphasis on Firebat. He has good self-sustain, strong wave-clear potential, brings a ton of CC to a fight, and has a kit that I think is pretty strong by default.

    Blaze has been a nice ~3rd pick or so for the offlane for a while, yeah. Definitely solid I think.

    However, despite Blizzard's classification, he's not a tank. He's just a bruiser, like Imperious

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  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    milk ducks wrote: »
    finnith wrote: »
    The nice thing about playing poorly is that you have good friends who can carry you. And other times you get a person who just walks into the enemy team pressing q.

    Yeah, the fucked up thing about that match was that we had it by the ass if our rando 5th on Mal'ganis (with his whopping 42% career win rate overall) hadn't fed relentlessly. I was holding my own in the offlane as Firebat against the Probe, and it was actually working out. Sure, I couldn't leave without sacrificing my towers, but it wasn't until around level 11-12 that he started actually gaining ground on me. When he pushed up deep that one time, I very nearly killed him from full by diving in with all of my cooldowns ready (and would have, if I'd have landed that second Oil Spill). So that was a frustrating error on my part. Still, pushed him out and (briefly) saved that Keep.

    Speaking of Firebat, I've been working on playing Tanks in the offlane recently. I'm in favor of double-tank camps, and always have been. I'm a pretty conservative player who really just looks for strong waveclear and CC in comps. Having a second tank allows you to muscle in on people, and it brings that little extra CC to a fight that oftentimes a Bruiser doesn't. So, I had initially been playing Arthas, and I do like him in that position in certain matchups but the reality is that he just doesn't clear quickly enough. So he's really weak against fast wave-clear, and I don't like that. Instead, I'm going to start placing more of an emphasis on Firebat. He has good self-sustain, strong wave-clear potential, brings a ton of CC to a fight, and has a kit that I think is pretty strong by default.

    Blaze has been a nice ~3rd pick or so for the offlane for a while, yeah. Definitely solid I think.

    However, despite Blizzard's classification, he's not a tank. He's just a bruiser, like Imperious

    if blizzard is gonna fucking label some of these heroes as things they're not, they either need to: reclassify the hero, OR actually make sure they're fucking capable of doing the job they're meant to be doing

    no fucking idea why they insist blaze is an MT, holy moly

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    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
    kime
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Meh, are you really that worse of having blaze MT versus say tyreal?

    The top tanks are the ones that provide initiation by them selves, the rest of the tanks don't and benefit from initiation from the rest of the team which both requires more coordination and are more comp specific

    The labels are only going to do so much to help random comps

    PSN SeGaTai
    Inquisitor77forty
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Yeah, role labels should be the starting point, not immutable law. Part of the issue here all along has been that Blizzard didn't start out with such a strict understanding of roles when they first designed this game. It was only after the introduction of the HGC that they really started pivoting towards these classifications, so you have a lot of heroes that don't quite fill what is already ambiguously defined at best.

    The irony here is that I'm not at all convinced that the roles make sense anymore given there is no longer a professional scene. In basketball terms, it's like asking your local YMCA pick-up game to run a strict 1-2-3-4-5 when you're just a bunch of 25-35 year-olds who happened to show up that Sunday.

  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Meh, are you really that worse of having blaze MT versus say tyreal?

    Your North America is showing

    SeGaTaikimeDibby
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Meh, are you really that worse of having blaze MT versus say tyreal?

    you've never seen my tyrael then eh

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    My secret is I'm happy to MT blaze or tyrael, it's just the rest of my team complaining they need better peels for their sloppy positioning

    PSN SeGaTai
    Inquisitor77milk duckskimeforty
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    My secret is I'm happy to MT blaze or tyrael, it's just the rest of my team complaining they need better peels for their sloppy positioning

    If you can't figure out that your tank has no instant hard engage to save you from being a dumbass, then that's your fault, not theirs.

    milk ducks
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    My secret is I'm happy to MT blaze or tyrael, it's just the rest of my team complaining they need better peels for their sloppy positioning

    If you can't figure out that your tank has no instant hard engage to save you from being a dumbass, then that's your fault, not theirs.

    Disagree. It's the tank's role to accept all the blame. Sometimes shared with the healer I guess.

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  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited May 2019
    enemy butcher fully fucking stacked by 5 minutes into the game

    fuck this joke of a game dude


    edit: literally we have an azmo/ktz/lucio/rexxar and i say "care mid, butcher" and azmo walks up fucking eats shit dies

    COOL

    Dibby on
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    milk ducks
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    My secret is I'm happy to MT blaze or tyrael, it's just the rest of my team complaining they need better peels for their sloppy positioning

    If you can't figure out that your tank has no instant hard engage to save you from being a dumbass, then that's your fault, not theirs.

    Disagree. It's the tank's role to accept all the blame. Sometimes shared with the healer I guess.
    Geez, it's like some of these people have never played an MMO or something.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited May 2019
    D6oMrKWW4AEtbBI.jpg
    (note the jaina's level)

    K9YR3g7.png
    D6oMrKVWkAE3HX_.jpg
    D6oMrKXXkAYF77v.jpg

    that's it

    the game's fucking dead

    conclusive fucking evidence

    8000 damage jaina. walking everywhere not using mounts not using ult. i say "hey mount up. hit Z." "there weren't mounts in the game when i played last time" "there have always been mounts in the game." walks forward into them at 10% health. i spam ping retreat. i say "leave. LEAVE. RUN, DUDE. JUST LEAVE." finally they do. they waddle around not mounting. i say "dude just back. just back go heal. stop walking use your mount." walks into a thrall and dies

    this game is fucking dead

    Dibby on
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    milk ducksSaerisMNC DoverNyht
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    edited May 2019
    HAHAHAHA

    Man that shit is gold

    milk ducks on
    fortyDibbyInquisitor77MNC DoverSmrtnik
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    Dibby wrote: »
    this game is fucking dead
    Welcome to our party.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    kOm2Nz7.png

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    milk duckstyrantula22SeGaTaiInquisitor77MNC Dover
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    That does explain why the match was on Cursed Hollow.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    8k damage in a 16 minute game, lol. I can't get over it. That's an average of 500 damage per minute.

    kimeDibby
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
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  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Meh, are you really that worse of having blaze MT versus say tyreal?

    Your North America is showing


    Can't show what doesn't exist.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    I must admit my near-total ignorance of the South American meta.

    Dibby
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    I must admit my near-total ignorance of the South American meta.
    100% Nexomania skins.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
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  • General_ArmchairGeneral_Armchair Registered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    My secret is I'm happy to MT blaze or tyrael, it's just the rest of my team complaining they need better peels for their sloppy positioning

    If you can't figure out that your tank has no instant hard engage to save you from being a dumbass, then that's your fault, not theirs.

    Disagree. It's the tank's role to accept all the blame. Sometimes shared with the healer I guess.
    Geez, it's like some of these people have never played an MMO or something.

    Trinity 101 outlines rules to easily determine fault:

    If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies then it's the tank's fault. If the DPS dies then it's their own damn fault.

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  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    milk ducks wrote: »
    8k damage in a 16 minute game, lol. I can't get over it. That's an average of 500 damage per minute.

    Hey, a few years back I had a game on BHB as Murky where I only had 1.2k hero damage. I basically just sat in the bot lane the entire game clearing waves and taking mercs. Hardly saw the enemy team at all. They must have been lovin' that 4v5 top/mid fighting.

    Clearly we won.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I get annoyed when I'm the solo laner and somehow I have top hero damage on my team even though they've been dicking around mid for five minutes straight.

    Dibbymilk ducksCoinage
  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    I get annoyed when I'm the solo laner and somehow I have top hero damage on my team even though they've been dicking around mid for five minutes straight.
    It's not their fault that they were too busy feeding and wiping to get top damage.

    The best card in Hearthstone is your credit card.
  • General_ArmchairGeneral_Armchair Registered User regular
    I get annoyed when I'm the solo laner and somehow I have top hero damage on my team even though they've been dicking around mid for five minutes straight.

    That's their fault for dicking around in mid in a disorganized mess while you and your lane opponent engage in an intense top-10 anime battle.

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  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    edited May 2019
    I get annoyed when I'm the solo laner and somehow I have top hero damage on my team even though they've been dicking around mid for five minutes straight.

    I work about 45-minutes to an hour away from home, so every day, I've got between an hour-and-a-half and two hours built into my schedule where I can think about shit like HotS without interruptions. Today, I was thinking about why "dicking around mid for five minutes straight" is so appealing to people, and why that phenomena leads to fundamental misunderstandings about the game, for both new and veteran players. It can be very frustrating to watch, because it inhibits your ability to generate XP effectively, which is, in my estimation, the literal sole purpose of the early game. I firmly believe that the HotS playerbase, by and large, does not understand how XP actually works, so I'm going to use this post to try and alleviate that issue in any way that I can.

    The first thing you need to understand is that there are multiple ways to generate XP:

    The first is through passive experience, which is earned at a rate of 23 per 35 seconds after the gates open at the start of a match. Destroying a Fort or a Keep will provide your team with a stacking 20% increase in passively-earned experience. In terms of minion waves, that amounts to about one bonus wave every 2 minutes. Since both teams receive this bonus, it has only a small impact on the game, especially in the early game; Killing minions, however, will be your team's primary method of gaining XP. Waves spawn every 30 seconds (this is going to be important when I talk about the 4-1 split later, but for now, just file that information away), and players need to be within 12.75 units of a minion when it dies to receive the experience they grant (there are exceptions to this, like Abathur, but that's not the purpose of this write-up). Additionally, every minion has a base value for it's experience. After every passing minute, that value increases based on a pattern. This value is "saved" or "imprinted" on every minion at the moment that they spawn from the Core, and does not change during the lifetime of that minion. Since minions spawn every 30 seconds, every second wave, starting with the one spawning at the one-minute mark, receives better stats including a higher experience reward; another source for gaining experience are the enemy structures on the map. As previously stated, destroying a Fort or a Keep will provide your team with a stacking 20% increase in passively-earned experience, but Towers grant a static amount of XP when they're destroyed, regardless of whether a hero is nearby or not; capturing mercenary camps also grants a scaling amount of XP for your team; and finally, killing enemy players provides global experience for your team. Teams that are behind gain an "underdog bonus" to this value that scales significantly based on how many levels apart your teams are (capping off at a four-level difference). Bonus XP will be granted in this manner until team levels are even (also, teams that are ahead in levels receive a corresponding XP penalty for enemy player kills). Notably, at even levels, hero kills grant only 66% of a minion wave's worth of experience.

    I'm going to repeat that, just in case anybody felt like skipping that wall-of-text paragraph:

    At even levels, hero kills grant only 66% of a minion wave's worth of experience.

    So if you're dicking around mid and not scoring at least two kills per minion wave, you're costing your team XP.

    I'll be honest; we talk an awful lot about the importance of the 4-1 split (4 players rotating together between nearby lanes, while an offlane hero handles another on their own), but I very rarely see it executed effectively, if at all, even when we're all grouped up and on comms. People get caught up, early and often, skirmishing with the enemy team, until a couple of minutes into the match when the whole thing's completely fallen apart. I'm gonna do my best to explain why that behavior is incorrect:

    The most important lesson I ever learned about HotS is that, if the enemy minion wave in my lane is gone, I can safely leave. Maybe more pointedly, if the enemy minion wave in my lane is gone, I should leave. There are a number of reasons why a 4-man should rotate together as one unit, like protection against the enemy's rotation, but the primary reason in my opinion is that 4 players can clear a minion wave a hell of a lot faster than 1 or 2. Why is that important? Because minions spawn from the Core in waves every 30 seconds. The faster you clear your wave, the more time you have to go do other things. If your team can clear a wave in 5 seconds, let's say, that means you've got 25 seconds of free time to rotate to the next lane to clear, and to gank the enemy solo lane, or to set up a bush-gank on the enemy rotation, or to capture a mercenary camp to further your XP gain and lane pressure. If your opponent can clear those same waves in 10 seconds, you've gained a 5-second advantage in every rotation that will culminate until your opponent begins to lose XP on rotations due to minions crashing into towers before they can arrive to clear.

    On many of the maps in HotS, the team that clears lanes faster has an overwhelming advantage in terms of options and mobility, and of course, in XP. That's why I always try to hammer into people the phrase "Clear the lane and leave." I genuinely think it's the most important piece of advice I can ever give a player: "Just clear the lane and leave". You don't need to fuck around and fight people; it almost never amounts to anything but wasted resources before an objective. Remember that hero kills are worth only 66% of a minion wave's worth of experience, so unless you can get at least two kills every 30 seconds by dicking around mid, you're actively losing XP.

    Please just soak. I know it's fucking boring. But that's how the game's meant to be played. Just clear the lane and leave, and you'll find that you have so much more time to do all the extra shit on the map everyone's always complaining about not being able to do.

    milk ducks on
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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    No ducks this is a team brawler.

    fortyfinnith
  • milk ducksmilk ducks Registered User regular
    No ducks this is a team brawler.

    ktm549ly26k3.png

    SeGaTaiDibbyTim is on the InternetMNC DoverSmrtnikNyht
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    edited May 2019
    very early on when we first load into the game i make a quick snap judgement about our team's comp vs their team's comp and if our early game is good enough to brawl mid (because, let's face it, every fucking team is going to brawl mid even if you tell them not to)

    if the answer is yes, i tell team "fight mid, look for kills, then go soak if we don't get any." if the answer is no, i tell team "don't fight mid, their early game is much better than ours, just soak."

    guess

    what

    happens

    every

    single

    time


    ....

    .........


    everyone just fights mid anyway and we miss two waves of exp top/bottom regardless

    i literally tell team "just go soak" or "we need soak top/bot"

    everyone. just. keeps. fucking. fighting. mid.

    i've already dipped out at this point. WAY the fuck out. i was gone the moment i saw the waves start to clash. because i knew at this point if we hadn't secured a kill, we weren't going to, and we're now actively missing exp

    flash forward a bit i'm soaking but people are dying mid still and now we have a permanent level deficit because people are leaving lanes open and not soaking and oop what's that it's the magical 8 to 10 and this game is fucking over

    just fucking soak

    Dibby on
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    milk ducks
  • A Half Eaten OreoA Half Eaten Oreo Registered User regular
    Is there a good place for a noob to learn macro strategy like what @milk ducks just posted? I’m kinda confided enough in a few heroes to play QM, I think my mechanics are alright for a noob, but I’m never sure if I’m making the right choices for game state. Like when should I go for camps, should I try to solo or ping, etc.

    With ETC for example if I see an empty lane I try to go to it for the XP and I have been top XP for a few games in a row now, but I don’t know if I’m actually harming my team by not ARAM-ing mid. Also for individual maps I’m not sure if we should go 5 man the “thing” or if someone should stay in lanes soaking.

    I feel kinda weird when I’m not sure if I’m playing “correctly”.

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    S t a c k s

    aeNqQM9.jpg
    forty
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    But Dibby how do I measure my wang size if we don't touch tips mid?

    forty
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