Looks like they're working on improving the AI for next patch. I'll believe it when I see it, but from what they're describing it sounds a fair bit better.
Granted, the last time they tried to improve the AI they actually broke it beyond recognition to the point where they basically went 100 steps backwards, BUT..........
Our plan moving forward is that we will be simplifying disconnected A.I. behavior by decreasing their metagame decision making. We will be paring down disconnect replacement A.I. behavior to two choices: follow the human who pinged you, or return to base if no human has pinged you. This will prevent moments where the lone disconnected AI trying his hardest to win the game by soaking top lane and getting picked off while the rest of your team is fighting at an objective. More importantly, this change will make replacement A.I. much less unpredictable. We feel like this is the best starting point in addressing a lot of the A.I. community feedback on disconnect replacement A.I.
This sounds good, although my concern is what happens if the person the AI is following dies. If the AI will just instantly abandon the fight, I foresee a lot of my games having none of the living people realizing they need to ping the AI to get it back into the fight,.
As exciting as it is to hear about the Heroes of the Storm team pouring resources into improving the quality of AI teammates, I'd settle for like, a new fucking hero.
[edit] bonus points for one that's actually from a Blizzard property and not just some shit they made up like Qhira.
As exciting as it is to hear about the Heroes of the Storm team pouring resources into improving the quality of AI teammates, I'd settle for like, a new fucking hero.
[edit] bonus points for one that's actually from a Blizzard property and not just some shit they made up like Qhira.
Last one was DW, and the new cadence means New Hero -> Rework Patch -> New Hero
With like a good several month gap in between those
So buckle in my dude it's gonna be a hot minute looool
As exciting as it is to hear about the Heroes of the Storm team pouring resources into improving the quality of AI teammates, I'd settle for like, a new fucking hero.
[edit] bonus points for one that's actually from a Blizzard property and not just some shit they made up like Qhira.
In the grand scale of things I think working AI is more important to the game than one more hero. Not that there's much overlap in dev resources between the two.
In the grand scale of things I think working AI is more important to the game than one more hero. Not that there's much overlap in dev resources between the two.
they're two completely separate teams/people, yeah
the guys working on the AI are not the same guys working on heroes
the guys working on heroes are the artists, the modelers, the animators, the ones who make the pretty sparkly spell effects, the balance team, the design team....... etc etc etc
Are all these "teams" just one person each now that HotS has been gutted?
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Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
Hey, how come the screen shakes and there's a red haze at the beginning of games sometimes? Is that because Deathwing was the latest hero and it's still kind've his release event? Is he meant to be doing a fly-over or something? No one I play with notices because no one ever pays attention at the start of games.
Alright @milk ducks you win, I've finally converted over to the "Decimate is the better ult" side now. Like legit the more I take it and use it the more I'm convinced it is just plain better. Straight up. Unless you specifically need Taunt to shut down a hypercarry like Genji or some shit, but Decimate is goddamn insane. Perma-slow, solid damage, excellent setup into E->Q combo, Deadly Calm is a game winning level 20 upgrade, etc etc etc
Alright @milk ducks you win, I've finally converted over to the "Decimate is the better ult" side now. Like legit the more I take it and use it the more I'm convinced it is just plain better. Straight up. Unless you specifically need Taunt to shut down a hypercarry like Genji or some shit, but Decimate is goddamn insane. Perma-slow, solid damage, excellent setup into E->Q combo, Deadly Calm is a game winning level 20 upgrade, etc etc etc
U RITE HOMIE
U RITE THO
But Icy-Veins.com says that Decimate isn't a good ult!
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Alright @milk ducks you win, I've finally converted over to the "Decimate is the better ult" side now. Like legit the more I take it and use it the more I'm convinced it is just plain better. Straight up. Unless you specifically need Taunt to shut down a hypercarry like Genji or some shit, but Decimate is goddamn insane. Perma-slow, solid damage, excellent setup into E->Q combo, Deadly Calm is a game winning level 20 upgrade, etc etc etc
U RITE HOMIE
U RITE THO
But Icy-Veins.com says that Decimate isn't a good ult!
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I dunno, last time I checked there for builds everything they had was wrong.
I'm curious what you consider everything to be wrong? I ask because I do actually use icy veins. I mean, I don't follow stuff on there to the letter or anything. But it at least gives me some ideas on builds to use, especially on characters I haven't played before. Most of the time, once I'm familiar with the character my builds vary some from what they show, but they usually have at least one build listed that isn't bad. Some of the builds I've seen people talk about on here are matches for what's on icy veins too. Including certain levels where multiple options exist depending on matchups and all that.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I dunno, last time I checked there for builds everything they had was wrong.
I'm curious what you consider everything to be wrong? I ask because I do actually use icy veins. I mean, I don't follow stuff on there to the letter or anything. But it at least gives me some ideas on builds to use, especially on characters I haven't played before. Most of the time, once I'm familiar with the character my builds vary some from what they show, but they usually have at least one build listed that isn't bad. Some of the builds I've seen people talk about on here are matches for what's on icy veins too. Including certain levels where multiple options exist depending on matchups and all that.
Ok let's take an example. Mephisto's W build.
You should take Spite at 4 and in most competitive play you take the slow at 7. Durance at 10 is extremely important and cleave AA at 13 helps out tremendously with managing CDs.
The icy-veins build has none of that.
It's also the 3rd listed build and it's probably the more potent build right now, especially for players who would need to go to icy-veins to look shit up.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think the more appropriate suggestion would be to harp less on Icy-Veins and instead highlight better websites for HotS builds and strats.
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+3
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
the only place you should be getting builds is this thread, obv
+4
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
but real talk though: i choose my builds on a combination of...
trying out talents for myself to actually evaluate them firsthand
looking on data aggregation websites like heroesprofile (because sometimes it's a bit difficult to tell if a talent is actually valuable, particularly when its use case is a bit more vague or obscured... and sometimes you just plain discover a better build. also, as stated above, i trust the data/numbers.)
knowing the right situation to pick certain talents in
talkin' to homies (literally see Ducks changing my mind on Decimate hoo boy)
it's one thing to go to a site like heroesprofile, icyveins, w/e and just blindly slam a build. it's another to know why you're picking those talents in the first place. like picking up Grounding Totem on Rehgar (a talent one might not ordinarily take) to shutdown an AA hypercarry like illidan or raynor or zul'jin, for example.
i still see so, so many nazeebos blindly locking in Vile at 20 even though they are NOWHERE close to completion b/c that's what the websites tell them to do. they ain't thinking about it.
that's the diff between picking a build b/c "well i just like this one" vs "oh, well it's good b/c x and y". and spoilers: if a hero ends up being well balanced enough to the point where they have multiple viable builds, then you can usually just pick the one you like anyway! but it's important to know the strengths of that build vs others and why you run it in the first place~
edit: anyway, icyveins. the big reason i don't like icyveins in general is that it tends to be riddled with inaccuracies and falsehoods (like actual just false statements) and also typically bad advice. it's really just sort of like, bottom rung kinda deal. there's better resources out there.
Dibby on
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
make a new talent for Yrel that makes her immune to being dismounted from damage for 3 seconds after mounting, and if she exits mounting with a basic attack it deals double damage
I'll skim icy veins to get an opinion on talents, but I look at heroes profile to get a better idea of what's popular.
This is basically what I use it for. It gives me an idea of something to follow, especially for heroes I'm not familiar with. I'll have to check out heroes profile though and see about using that more. I mean, I knew that icy veins wasn't "the best" and definitely shouldn't be looked at as the only option on builds, I just had never really looked into what other options there were to reference.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I think heroesnexus was the site I used when I was completely stumped by a hero? They were pretty good, but I'm pretty sure died a horrible death a number of years ago.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
I disagree. OK sure: no, there is not a 100%-always-correct build.
But there's a 50%-correct build, a 40%-correct-build, and then a few random other edge cases. Or there's a 70%-correct build that has a bunch of variations for the remaining 30%, but the 70% one still works OK. Or there's some build flexibility among ~2 talents on each tier, but the other 1-2 are trash and you should never take them (looking at you, Convection :P ), so just following a build will get you something better than random choice.
So like.... sure, if you just follow a set build are you going to be optimal every game? No. But for the vast majority of players who, remember, are not good at this game :P , following a build probably gets them better than what they'd do on their own. Convection, oy, still have people taking that :P .
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
This too. You get things like with the Mephisto example we had above. You "should" take x talent at whatever level. That may be true, but it could also just be exactly like you're saying here. Some players could be better off with a different talent choice just because of their player level.
Or for a really good example, back when cleanse was more prevalent you "should" almost always take cleanse. But like, I know I'm not a good enough player to use that effectively most of the time, so it would be a waste for me to take it when I could actually gain something from a different talent. It's not ideal or the pro level pick, but it just worked better for me more often than not.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
I disagree. OK sure: no, there is not a 100%-always-correct build.
But there's a 50%-correct build, a 40%-correct-build, and then a few random other edge cases. Or there's a 70%-correct build that has a bunch of variations for the remaining 30%, but the 70% one still works OK. Or there's some build flexibility among ~2 talents on each tier, but the other 1-2 are trash and you should never take them (looking at you, Convection :P ), so just following a build will get you something better than random choice.
So like.... sure, if you just follow a set build are you going to be optimal every game? No. But for the vast majority of players who, remember, are not good at this game :P , following a build probably gets them better than what they'd do on their own. Convection, oy, still have people taking that :P .
So I almost used convection over cleanse in my last example, lol.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
I disagree. OK sure: no, there is not a 100%-always-correct build.
But there's a 50%-correct build, a 40%-correct-build, and then a few random other edge cases. Or there's a 70%-correct build that has a bunch of variations for the remaining 30%, but the 70% one still works OK. Or there's some build flexibility among ~2 talents on each tier, but the other 1-2 are trash and you should never take them (looking at you, Convection :P ), so just following a build will get you something better than random choice.
So like.... sure, if you just follow a set build are you going to be optimal every game? No. But for the vast majority of players who, remember, are not good at this game :P , following a build probably gets them better than what they'd do on their own. Convection, oy, still have people taking that :P .
So I almost used convection over cleanse in my last example, lol.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
I disagree. OK sure: no, there is not a 100%-always-correct build.
But there's a 50%-correct build, a 40%-correct-build, and then a few random other edge cases. Or there's a 70%-correct build that has a bunch of variations for the remaining 30%, but the 70% one still works OK. Or there's some build flexibility among ~2 talents on each tier, but the other 1-2 are trash and you should never take them (looking at you, Convection :P ), so just following a build will get you something better than random choice.
So like.... sure, if you just follow a set build are you going to be optimal every game? No. But for the vast majority of players who, remember, are not good at this game :P , following a build probably gets them better than what they'd do on their own. Convection, oy, still have people taking that :P .
I think if you follow the correct advice, you will do better. But it's virtually impossible for any single player to know which advice is correct, particularly at lower skill levels (insert Dunning-Kruger reference here), and they will naturally gravitate towards what the "experts" will tell them to do.
My go-to example in this case is Cleanse. Everyone who is actually good at this game will tell you that Cleanse and Cleanse-like talents are about as mandatory as any talent can be. However, Cleanse has always had a losing win rate at everything below GM/pro play (sometimes not even having a positive win rate at the GM level). Why? Because the amount of skill required to properly leverage Cleanse is, for 99.9% of the population, unachievable.
Unfortunately, much of the advice and builds out there are not geared towards specific skill levels. Instead, they gravitate towards "optimal" play with the expectation that players will have the amount of skill required to execute. This is, coincidentally, why you often hear pro players complain about "OP" stuff much more than they complain about "underpowered" stuff - because short of very few cases, they will always be able to take full advantage (or expect themselves to be able to take full advantage) of any given ability, regardless of how much skill is required to use it.
There are some experts out there who recognize this issue and tailor their advice accordingly. Grubby, for example, almost always prefaces his advice with caveats like skill level, map, team composition, etc. Fan actually has tier lists which specifically call out what skill level is expected, and when people ask him for advice in Twitch chat he tends to ask them what level they are playing at before responding.
There's also the issue that what is best for you is actually very particular. For example, I struggle with heroes like Alarak because I no longer have the dexterity to play him well, and frankly he exacerbates my carpal tunnel/tendonitis when I play him, so in my case the advice should basically be "never play Alarak". So maybe I can get by purely by macro play at Diamond, but I don't actually have the micro capability on Alarak that you might expect from a "Diamond" player. So if I were to play him, putting all my talents in his W would probably be a stupid idea because I can't really leverage that ability as well as I should, and would probably be better off just spamming his lightning instead. Everyone has particular skills and foibles that are specific to them, and it's hard to give meaningful advice without knowing those specifics (not including all the other factors like map or team comp). The best you can do is say stuff like, "Avoid activated talents" or "If you pick a quest talent, make sure to farm the quest or you won't get value". If you want to call that the "70% correct choice" then sure, you can. But people often treat generalized concepts as unimpeachable rules when, like pretty much everything in life, the proximate factors for the situation at-hand almost always outweigh everything else.
Except for Convection. Nobody should be taking Convection.
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My shitty play? Calculated!
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https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/heroes-of-the-storm/23307262/meet-the-biology-major-evolving-the-heroes-of-the-storm-a-i-to-combo-you-to-death
Looks like they're working on improving the AI for next patch. I'll believe it when I see it, but from what they're describing it sounds a fair bit better.
Granted, the last time they tried to improve the AI they actually broke it beyond recognition to the point where they basically went 100 steps backwards, BUT..........
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
[edit] bonus points for one that's actually from a Blizzard property and not just some shit they made up like Qhira.
Last one was DW, and the new cadence means New Hero -> Rework Patch -> New Hero
With like a good several month gap in between those
So buckle in my dude it's gonna be a hot minute looool
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I'm still hoping for mengsk.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
they're two completely separate teams/people, yeah
the guys working on the AI are not the same guys working on heroes
the guys working on heroes are the artists, the modelers, the animators, the ones who make the pretty sparkly spell effects, the balance team, the design team....... etc etc etc
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
U RITE HOMIE
U RITE THO
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
But Icy-Veins.com says that Decimate isn't a good ult!
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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lmfao icy veins
imagine using icy veins in 2020
imagine using icy veins ever
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
What's the deal with icy veins?
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I dunno, last time I checked there for builds everything they had was wrong.
I'm curious what you consider everything to be wrong? I ask because I do actually use icy veins. I mean, I don't follow stuff on there to the letter or anything. But it at least gives me some ideas on builds to use, especially on characters I haven't played before. Most of the time, once I'm familiar with the character my builds vary some from what they show, but they usually have at least one build listed that isn't bad. Some of the builds I've seen people talk about on here are matches for what's on icy veins too. Including certain levels where multiple options exist depending on matchups and all that.
Steam ID
Ok let's take an example. Mephisto's W build.
You should take Spite at 4 and in most competitive play you take the slow at 7. Durance at 10 is extremely important and cleave AA at 13 helps out tremendously with managing CDs.
The icy-veins build has none of that.
It's also the 3rd listed build and it's probably the more potent build right now, especially for players who would need to go to icy-veins to look shit up.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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I just talk with people I trust, I don’t use sites anymore.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
heroesprofile.com
i trust data and numbers, not people :V
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
hack into the game and code in your own new talents and heroes
smdh, wake UP SHEEPLE
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
it's one thing to go to a site like heroesprofile, icyveins, w/e and just blindly slam a build. it's another to know why you're picking those talents in the first place. like picking up Grounding Totem on Rehgar (a talent one might not ordinarily take) to shutdown an AA hypercarry like illidan or raynor or zul'jin, for example.
i still see so, so many nazeebos blindly locking in Vile at 20 even though they are NOWHERE close to completion b/c that's what the websites tell them to do. they ain't thinking about it.
that's the diff between picking a build b/c "well i just like this one" vs "oh, well it's good b/c x and y". and spoilers: if a hero ends up being well balanced enough to the point where they have multiple viable builds, then you can usually just pick the one you like anyway! but it's important to know the strengths of that build vs others and why you run it in the first place~
edit: anyway, icyveins. the big reason i don't like icyveins in general is that it tends to be riddled with inaccuracies and falsehoods (like actual just false statements) and also typically bad advice. it's really just sort of like, bottom rung kinda deal. there's better resources out there.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
This is basically what I use it for. It gives me an idea of something to follow, especially for heroes I'm not familiar with. I'll have to check out heroes profile though and see about using that more. I mean, I knew that icy veins wasn't "the best" and definitely shouldn't be looked at as the only option on builds, I just had never really looked into what other options there were to reference.
Steam ID
trickle down effect is a real thing
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I disagree. OK sure: no, there is not a 100%-always-correct build.
But there's a 50%-correct build, a 40%-correct-build, and then a few random other edge cases. Or there's a 70%-correct build that has a bunch of variations for the remaining 30%, but the 70% one still works OK. Or there's some build flexibility among ~2 talents on each tier, but the other 1-2 are trash and you should never take them (looking at you, Convection :P ), so just following a build will get you something better than random choice.
So like.... sure, if you just follow a set build are you going to be optimal every game? No. But for the vast majority of players who, remember, are not good at this game :P , following a build probably gets them better than what they'd do on their own. Convection, oy, still have people taking that :P .
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
This too. You get things like with the Mephisto example we had above. You "should" take x talent at whatever level. That may be true, but it could also just be exactly like you're saying here. Some players could be better off with a different talent choice just because of their player level.
Or for a really good example, back when cleanse was more prevalent you "should" almost always take cleanse. But like, I know I'm not a good enough player to use that effectively most of the time, so it would be a waste for me to take it when I could actually gain something from a different talent. It's not ideal or the pro level pick, but it just worked better for me more often than not.
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So I almost used convection over cleanse in my last example, lol.
Steam ID
Except Convection is bad at every level :P
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
Steam profile
I think if you follow the correct advice, you will do better. But it's virtually impossible for any single player to know which advice is correct, particularly at lower skill levels (insert Dunning-Kruger reference here), and they will naturally gravitate towards what the "experts" will tell them to do.
My go-to example in this case is Cleanse. Everyone who is actually good at this game will tell you that Cleanse and Cleanse-like talents are about as mandatory as any talent can be. However, Cleanse has always had a losing win rate at everything below GM/pro play (sometimes not even having a positive win rate at the GM level). Why? Because the amount of skill required to properly leverage Cleanse is, for 99.9% of the population, unachievable.
Unfortunately, much of the advice and builds out there are not geared towards specific skill levels. Instead, they gravitate towards "optimal" play with the expectation that players will have the amount of skill required to execute. This is, coincidentally, why you often hear pro players complain about "OP" stuff much more than they complain about "underpowered" stuff - because short of very few cases, they will always be able to take full advantage (or expect themselves to be able to take full advantage) of any given ability, regardless of how much skill is required to use it.
There are some experts out there who recognize this issue and tailor their advice accordingly. Grubby, for example, almost always prefaces his advice with caveats like skill level, map, team composition, etc. Fan actually has tier lists which specifically call out what skill level is expected, and when people ask him for advice in Twitch chat he tends to ask them what level they are playing at before responding.
There's also the issue that what is best for you is actually very particular. For example, I struggle with heroes like Alarak because I no longer have the dexterity to play him well, and frankly he exacerbates my carpal tunnel/tendonitis when I play him, so in my case the advice should basically be "never play Alarak". So maybe I can get by purely by macro play at Diamond, but I don't actually have the micro capability on Alarak that you might expect from a "Diamond" player. So if I were to play him, putting all my talents in his W would probably be a stupid idea because I can't really leverage that ability as well as I should, and would probably be better off just spamming his lightning instead. Everyone has particular skills and foibles that are specific to them, and it's hard to give meaningful advice without knowing those specifics (not including all the other factors like map or team comp). The best you can do is say stuff like, "Avoid activated talents" or "If you pick a quest talent, make sure to farm the quest or you won't get value". If you want to call that the "70% correct choice" then sure, you can. But people often treat generalized concepts as unimpeachable rules when, like pretty much everything in life, the proximate factors for the situation at-hand almost always outweigh everything else.
Except for Convection. Nobody should be taking Convection.