Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
What luck, the primaries are upon us and it's a chance to get a non-centrist in the General!
And when we end up with a centrist in the general?
We begrudgingly accept them but continue pushing for non-centrists in subsequent elections for all positions in government?
Really cause it seems like the far left's answer is spend the entire general election saying it's fine not to vote for the general election candidate, vote third party or heck just write in the primary challenger you wish had won instead without the slightest concern for how depressing turnout could affect the results
If its coupled with an opposition party that insists on nominating big business centrists over and over then yeah I guess RIP republic.
It's also discounting that a fascist might win again in a year or a couple years or a decade or whenever anyway. They might not vote out the fascist after all, or the fascist might make it harder to be gotten rid of by corrupting the voting institutions.
Any win to keep one out of power is a good one. Obviously you can draw from this that i'm saying a centrist is better than a fascist and the status quo is better than descending into fascism, and that's correct.
I want a socialist to come in and eat the rich and dismantle capitalism and all that, but if that has been taken off the table by virtue of a candidate with those policies not existing as one of the top two in the general election then I will absolutely say yes let's keep things the same for a couple years. I'd rather we not make things actively worse for those couple years instead.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
What luck, the primaries are upon us and it's a chance to get a non-centrist in the General!
And when we end up with a centrist in the general?
We begrudgingly accept them but continue pushing for non-centrists in subsequent elections for all positions in government?
Really cause it seems like the far left's answer is spend the entire general election saying it's fine not to vote for the general election candidate, vote third party or heck just write in the primary challenger you wish had won instead without the slightest concern for how depressing turnout could affect the results
If its coupled with an opposition party that insists on nominating big business centrists over and over then yeah I guess RIP republic.
The party didn’t pick the nominee, voters did.
Ignoring the effect the Party has, my statement should be taken to include the party faithful that vote in the primary process.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Nope, just a recognition that competence would make it vastly worse.
It would, but that's not the entirety of your argument. You're using the asserted likelihood of a competent fascist after a Clinton presidency as a counter to the immediate harm of Trump.
But one is an immediate certainty, and the other is a hypothetical. One is definitely unbelievably bad, the other might be worse if a dozen things turn out in specific ways in the intervening years.
The actual best course of action is always to vote against the fascist, rather than hope that if we give this fascist a nice gift of unbelievable power, they won't be replaced by a worse fascist we can imagine in four years.
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
This. While we squabble over whether it’s the center or the left’s fault, the federal judiciary is now overflowing with young fascist nut jobs in lifetime appointments.
The pieces of power they are accumulating work together. They used their excess state-level influence to enact voter suppression, which won them the senate and the White House.
I think it’s very possible we are already past the tipping point where they can’t be defeated through traditional electoral means.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
What luck, the primaries are upon us and it's a chance to get a non-centrist in the General!
And when we end up with a centrist in the general?
We begrudgingly accept them but continue pushing for non-centrists in subsequent elections for all positions in government?
Really cause it seems like the far left's answer is spend the entire general election saying it's fine not to vote for the general election candidate, vote third party or heck just write in the primary challenger you wish had won instead without the slightest concern for how depressing turnout could affect the results
If its coupled with an opposition party that insists on nominating big business centrists over and over then yeah I guess RIP republic.
The party didn’t pick the nominee, voters did.
Ignoring the effect the Party has, my statement should be taken to include the party faithful that vote in the primary process.
The party faithful, who vote in the primary consistently, picked the nominee.
No shit.
It’s really hard to read anything other than sour grapes from your post. I’m sorry that whoever your preferred candidate was that they lost, but that’s how the primary works.
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
We're not a team when the party doesnt do anything we asked for when we win.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Nope, just a recognition that competence would make it vastly worse.
It would, but that's not the entirety of your argument. You're using the asserted likelihood of a competent fascist after a Clinton presidency as a counter to the immediate harm of Trump.
But one is an immediate certainty, and the other is a hypothetical. One is definitely unbelievably bad, the other might be worse if a dozen things turn out in specific ways in the intervening years.
The actual best course of action is always to vote against the fascist, rather than hope that if we give this fascist a nice gift of unbelievable power, they won't be replaced by a worse fascist we can imagine in four years.
My argument is that we're on a train headed for a cliff and every time we vote in a centrist we're just shoveling coal a little slower. It might prolong the fall but at some point you have to stop fucking shoveling.
As to how people should vote, I leave that to their concience and situation. I dont know how I'll vote next time.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
What luck, the primaries are upon us and it's a chance to get a non-centrist in the General!
And when we end up with a centrist in the general?
We begrudgingly accept them but continue pushing for non-centrists in subsequent elections for all positions in government?
Really cause it seems like the far left's answer is spend the entire general election saying it's fine not to vote for the general election candidate, vote third party or heck just write in the primary challenger you wish had won instead without the slightest concern for how depressing turnout could affect the results
If its coupled with an opposition party that insists on nominating big business centrists over and over then yeah I guess RIP republic.
The party didn’t pick the nominee, voters did.
Ignoring the effect the Party has, my statement should be taken to include the party faithful that vote in the primary process.
The party faithful, who vote in the primary consistently, picked the nominee.
No shit.
It’s really hard to read anything other than sour grapes from your post. I’m sorry that whoever your preferred candidate was that they lost, but that’s how the primary works.
I have no idea where this is coming from but ok
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
The left doesn't feel like it's part of the team because elected officials and Centrist voters alike often yell at them to not change the party via primaries. Plus, there's party leadership being passive-aggressive toward the recent gains made by leftists in the party. There's no teamwork here. Leftists are being asked to abandon their ideals (and lives in some cases as the Republicans stomp around) while Centrists give up literally nothing. Even if Centrists vote left, they give up nothing! They have nothing to lose but won't budge.
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
The left doesn't feel like it's part of the team because elected officials and Centrist voters alike often yell at them to not change the party via primaries. Plus, there's party leadership being passive-aggressive toward the recent gains made by leftists in the party. There's no teamwork here. Leftists are being asked to abandon their ideals (and lives in some cases as the Republicans stomp around) while Centrists give up literally nothing. Even if Centrists vote left, they give up nothing! They have nothing to lose but won't budge.
We're working as a team to hold back fuckin fascism mate.
That's pretty much all the general is about now.
+9
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
What makes you think that the case wouldn't have been the same with Bernie had he won? He would have still had the same structurally disadvantages in Congress that Clinton would have with regards to getting any of his policies past, and if he didn't, he would have suffered the same defeats during the midterm that Obama did due to depressed enthusiasm.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Nope, just a recognition that competence would make it vastly worse.
It would, but that's not the entirety of your argument. You're using the asserted likelihood of a competent fascist after a Clinton presidency as a counter to the immediate harm of Trump.
But one is an immediate certainty, and the other is a hypothetical. One is definitely unbelievably bad, the other might be worse if a dozen things turn out in specific ways in the intervening years.
The actual best course of action is always to vote against the fascist, rather than hope that if we give this fascist a nice gift of unbelievable power, they won't be replaced by a worse fascist we can imagine in four years.
My argument is that we're on a train headed for a cliff and every time we vote in a centrist we're just shoveling coal a little slower. It might prolong the fall but at some point you have to stop fucking shoveling.
As to how people should vote, I leave that to their concience and situation. I dont know how I'll vote next time.
But choosing not to vote doesn't stop the shovel. It just abdicates one's say in the decision of whether to dump in a shovelful or a truckload.
Tarantio on
+4
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
The left doesn't feel like it's part of the team because elected officials and Centrist voters alike often yell at them to not change the party via primaries. Plus, there's party leadership being passive-aggressive toward the recent gains made by leftists in the party. There's no teamwork here. Leftists are being asked to abandon their ideals (and lives in some cases as the Republicans stomp around) while Centrists give up literally nothing. Even if Centrists vote left, they give up nothing! They have nothing to lose but won't budge.
We're working as a team to hold back fuckin fascism mate.
That's pretty much all the general is about now.
And what happens after that? Continued mediocrity to not resolve issues the marginalized face?
People have said it here; it's not enough to just campaign on "wow those other guys are evil." People want MORE than that.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Nope, just a recognition that competence would make it vastly worse.
It would, but that's not the entirety of your argument. You're using the asserted likelihood of a competent fascist after a Clinton presidency as a counter to the immediate harm of Trump.
But one is an immediate certainty, and the other is a hypothetical. One is definitely unbelievably bad, the other might be worse if a dozen things turn out in specific ways in the intervening years.
The actual best course of action is always to vote against the fascist, rather than hope that if we give this fascist a nice gift of unbelievable power, they won't be replaced by a worse fascist we can imagine in four years.
My argument is that we're on a train headed for a cliff and every time we vote in a centrist we're just shoveling coal a little slower. It might prolong the fall but at some point you have to stop fucking shoveling.
As to how people should vote, I leave that to their concience and situation. I dont know how I'll vote next time.
But choosing not to vote doesn't stop the shovel. It just abdicates one's say in the decision of whether to dump in a shovelful or a truckload.
I didnt say anyone should stop voting. Make up your own minds.
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
The left doesn't feel like it's part of the team because elected officials and Centrist voters alike often yell at them to not change the party via primaries. Plus, there's party leadership being passive-aggressive toward the recent gains made by leftists in the party. There's no teamwork here. Leftists are being asked to abandon their ideals (and lives in some cases as the Republicans stomp around) while Centrists give up literally nothing. Even if Centrists vote left, they give up nothing! They have nothing to lose but won't budge.
And for those of us that have friends and experience in foreign countries, there's this extra bit of tin foil in the teeth - policies on issues like health care, workers rights, and public aid that are considered moderate (to the point that European/Asian right wing parties support them) somehow become "leftist" on this side of the Atlantic/Pacific. And when you bring this up, Democratic partisans will scream about how their party isn't center right or "'Murica is different" or "We need to be afraid of the rednecks with guns" or - my absolute favorite - do the racist bullshit passive aggressive dance where they suggest that the existence of minorities means that you can't have nice things in this country.
Hell, maybe they are right. If so, that's not a case to vote Democratic or abandon leftist ideas. It's a case for making sure that you or your kids are able to flee to a country that isn't going to put them on the street if they have a health problem.
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
The left doesn't feel like it's part of the team because elected officials and Centrist voters alike often yell at them to not change the party via primaries. Plus, there's party leadership being passive-aggressive toward the recent gains made by leftists in the party. There's no teamwork here. Leftists are being asked to abandon their ideals (and lives in some cases as the Republicans stomp around) while Centrists give up literally nothing. Even if Centrists vote left, they give up nothing! They have nothing to lose but won't budge.
We're working as a team to hold back fuckin fascism mate.
That's pretty much all the general is about now.
And what happens after that? Continued mediocrity to not resolve issues the marginalized face?
People have said it here; it's not enough to just campaign on "wow those other guys are evil." People want MORE than that.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
This. While we squabble over whether it’s the center or the left’s fault, the federal judiciary is now overflowing with young fascist nut jobs in lifetime appointments.
The pieces of power they are accumulating work together. They used their excess state-level influence to enact voter suppression, which won them the senate and the White House.
I think it’s very possible we are already past the tipping point where they can’t be defeated through traditional electoral means.
And they use their control of Congress to fill the courts with loyal party men who will then strike down any attempts to fix the massive gerrymandering and voter suppression they use to maintain control, thus reinforcing the cycle.
There are a lot of middle class Democratic voters who are perfectly fine with the economic status quo and want nothing to do with the Left's policies, they just want America as it is but less racist.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
I feel like Sleep's response was trying to push some sort of "gotcha." What is there to get? I'll take stalling government the government over the government actively regressing the country, but stalling is still bad because a lot of people in the country have it bad and need immediate help. No, they can't wait for it. They can't accept babysteps because things like inflation outpace the babysteps.
There's a lot of argument in here that going Centrist even in primaries is our best option but I mean, as demonstrated by what? Maintaining the status quo? Yes, you don't make things worse for people, but you don't make things better. And that's a position only the privileged could ever have. Straight, cis, white, wealthy. Those four categories and the combinations thereof exist regardless of party. LGBT, POC, and the poor are hurting and want to not hurt anymore. One party wants to drive hard on making that hurt worse, and the other wants to maintain the level of hurting.
Advocating Centrism as the norm / forever-go-to is privilege. The left will take it as a last resort, but nobody here should be mistaking it for endorsement. It's survival.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
The left doesn't feel like it's part of the team because elected officials and Centrist voters alike often yell at them to not change the party via primaries. Plus, there's party leadership being passive-aggressive toward the recent gains made by leftists in the party. There's no teamwork here. Leftists are being asked to abandon their ideals (and lives in some cases as the Republicans stomp around) while Centrists give up literally nothing. Even if Centrists vote left, they give up nothing! They have nothing to lose but won't budge.
We're working as a team to hold back fuckin fascism mate.
That's pretty much all the general is about now.
And what happens after that? Continued mediocrity to not resolve issues the marginalized face?
People have said it here; it's not enough to just campaign on "wow those other guys are evil." People want MORE than that.
After that, we have more elections! More primaries, with more new young people and some of the old ones died, followed by more general elections.
And again (it's easy to miss stuff because this thread is moving so fast) the candidates don't campaign on being the lesser evil. They move their stances based on who they want to win the support of. There were significant concessions to the left the last time around. It is absolutely, unequivocally not just "those other guys are evil."
There are a lot of middle class Democratic voters who are perfectly fine with the economic status quo and want nothing to do with the Left's policies, they just want America as it is but less racist.
Yeah, I just don’t get it. My preferred level of leftism is slightly left of Comrade Gritty. It just never occurs to me to get into these pointless factionalism wars. I know who my enemy is and it’s not people who voted for the ACA, which is both deeply flawed and the only reason my severely disabled son can get health care.
Nobody ever gained power in a two-party system by being an unreliable voter. It doesn’t make anyone court you, it makes them move away from you.
If you’re not going to get on board the with the Democratic Party 100% no matter what, then let’s start the general strikes or whatever your non-electoral plan B is.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Nope, just a recognition that competence would make it vastly worse.
It would, but that's not the entirety of your argument. You're using the asserted likelihood of a competent fascist after a Clinton presidency as a counter to the immediate harm of Trump.
But one is an immediate certainty, and the other is a hypothetical. One is definitely unbelievably bad, the other might be worse if a dozen things turn out in specific ways in the intervening years.
The actual best course of action is always to vote against the fascist, rather than hope that if we give this fascist a nice gift of unbelievable power, they won't be replaced by a worse fascist we can imagine in four years.
My argument is that we're on a train headed for a cliff and every time we vote in a centrist we're just shoveling coal a little slower. It might prolong the fall but at some point you have to stop fucking shoveling.
As to how people should vote, I leave that to their concience and situation. I dont know how I'll vote next time.
But choosing not to vote doesn't stop the shovel. It just abdicates one's say in the decision of whether to dump in a shovelful or a truckload.
I didnt say anyone should stop voting. Make up your own minds.
Then why reply to the argument that we should all vote against the fascist?
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Ah those halcyon days of yore when people on this forum - some in this very thread! - argued against Hillary because she was the “Iran hawk” and trump was the peaceful candidate.
Pepperidge farm remembers.
This comment deserves more spotlight.
Anecdotal- but I personally know two people who made arguments to me that Clinton would go to war with either Iran, North Korea, or Russia. One wrote in Bernie and the other voted for Stein.
Until a leftist is one of the top two running in a first past the post system i'm fine voting for the centrist so the fascist doesn't get elected.
Its just kicking the can, hoping things turn out better next time all the while things keep getting worse because liberalism cant beat fascism.
If Clinton had won we'd be staring down the barrel of a campaign by a serious and competent fascist like Cotton in 2018.
Instead of currently living under a fascist right this moment? I don't understand how your hypothetical is worse.
Our greatest salvation right now is our fascist president is a dying moron. We wont be so lucky if things carry on.
This seems to be severely discounting the permanent, irreversible harm being done by the Trump presidency right now.
Ah those halcyon days of yore when people on this forum - some in this very thread! - argued against Hillary because she was the “Iran hawk” and trump was the peaceful candidate.
Pepperidge farm remembers.
This comment deserves more spotlight.
Anecdotal- but I personally know two people who made arguments to me that Clinton would go to war with either Iran, North Korea, or Russia. One wrote in Bernie and the other voted for Stein.
Does it really? Seems like bullshit to me.
I was around on these forums and got roundly mocked for suggesting Trump might win, based largely on what I was hearing from back home and the general poor showing of the Dem campaign. I'm surprised I don't remember the fucking massive dogpile that would have gone down if someone had actually suggested Trump was better than Hillary.
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
Then give me a better option. Win an election yourself or give me the road map for how we are gonna fix this non-electorally.
Because it sure seems to me that the only goal here is to make it really clear that it’s somebody else’s fault fascism won and not actually beating back fascism
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
r
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
r
This argument seems recursive.
Well, the way out of the loop is to find a driver we trust
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
Then give me a better option. Win an election yourself or give me the road map for how we are gonna fix this non-electorally.
Because it sure seems to me that the only goal here is to make it really clear that it’s somebody else’s fault fascism won and not actually beating back fascism
The argument presented from the left is that centrism cant beat back fascism.
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
r
This argument seems recursive.
Well, the way out of the loop is to find a driver we trust
*looks at 2020 candidate slates, where the best we can do for a leftist is late-moving Warren or the only person to be so unlikeable they actually lost to Hillary Clinton in a national election*
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
Is anyone asking you to support them in the primaries?
There's a difference between choosing the more electable choice over the one you'd prefer for the hope that they'll win, and trying to help the candidate win over the fascist after they've been chosen.
I guess the thing that gets me is that the argument that we should keep trying the same things that have made us lose over and over recently is not a good one
We need to do something differently, but every time someone on the left suggests we move further to the left it is met with “No, ya dumb lefty, you’re the reason we’re in this mess” and there’s no real suggestion about what to do differently except maybe we do the same stuff, but more earnestly, and this time you guys who didn’t want to vote for us last time need to vote for us!
It’s a little bit maddening
If what you’re doing isn’t working, try something else
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Saying “this candidate is owed votes” is not a productive frame of mind to take when you’re trying to win some
But individuals owe their vote to the better candidate
This is true even the candidate is only slightly better—not that it matters because the gulf between Democrats and Republicans is vast on many, many vital issues
Saying “I know one candidate is a fascist and the other one isn’t, but the non-fascist didn’t do enough to earn my vote so I stayed home/voted for Stein/voted for the fascist” is absolutely unconscionable
Voting and voting correctly is a moral imperative and if more people recognized that we might not be in this crisis
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
Then give me a better option. Win an election yourself or give me the road map for how we are gonna fix this non-electorally.
Because it sure seems to me that the only goal here is to make it really clear that it’s somebody else’s fault fascism won and not actually beating back fascism
The argument presented from the left is that centrism cant beat back fascism.
The left breaking the center is what will let the fascists win, in this case. The center must hold.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
look just suck it up and vote for the electable candidates and policies is an argument that starts to fall apart when the electable candidates and policies start to lose
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
Then give me a better option. Win an election yourself or give me the road map for how we are gonna fix this non-electorally.
Because it sure seems to me that the only goal here is to make it really clear that it’s somebody else’s fault fascism won and not actually beating back fascism
The argument presented from the left is that centrism cant beat back fascism.
Then how are they gonna do it themselves? Whine about how it’s not their fault until everyone else surrenders?
Posts
The party didn’t pick the nominee, voters did.
Any win to keep one out of power is a good one. Obviously you can draw from this that i'm saying a centrist is better than a fascist and the status quo is better than descending into fascism, and that's correct.
I want a socialist to come in and eat the rich and dismantle capitalism and all that, but if that has been taken off the table by virtue of a candidate with those policies not existing as one of the top two in the general election then I will absolutely say yes let's keep things the same for a couple years. I'd rather we not make things actively worse for those couple years instead.
Ignoring the effect the Party has, my statement should be taken to include the party faithful that vote in the primary process.
It would, but that's not the entirety of your argument. You're using the asserted likelihood of a competent fascist after a Clinton presidency as a counter to the immediate harm of Trump.
But one is an immediate certainty, and the other is a hypothetical. One is definitely unbelievably bad, the other might be worse if a dozen things turn out in specific ways in the intervening years.
The actual best course of action is always to vote against the fascist, rather than hope that if we give this fascist a nice gift of unbelievable power, they won't be replaced by a worse fascist we can imagine in four years.
Except at the moment that's not the actual stance taken, nor was it the stance anyone took while I fuckin begged people to avoid our current fates. The stance was, "how dare I suggest you could be voting wrong". The stance was that I was paranoid. The stance was pushing a narrative of non participantion as a totally fine way to get the president you wanted (cause clinton was a totally sure thing anyways so a few votes couldn't possibly matter) without having to get your hands dirty.
Im not even advocating centrism as the best way forward. Im telling you it's the most likely way forward because not everyone's into the leftism we are and a centrist is highly likely to win the primaries because of that.
Im saying that the left needs to learn how to actually be on the team and not literally leave the party when they lose the primaries.
This. While we squabble over whether it’s the center or the left’s fault, the federal judiciary is now overflowing with young fascist nut jobs in lifetime appointments.
The pieces of power they are accumulating work together. They used their excess state-level influence to enact voter suppression, which won them the senate and the White House.
I think it’s very possible we are already past the tipping point where they can’t be defeated through traditional electoral means.
The party faithful, who vote in the primary consistently, picked the nominee.
No shit.
It’s really hard to read anything other than sour grapes from your post. I’m sorry that whoever your preferred candidate was that they lost, but that’s how the primary works.
the fact is that people won't, they'll just check out of the election instead, and you have to plan your campaign to account for that
We're not a team when the party doesnt do anything we asked for when we win.
My argument is that we're on a train headed for a cliff and every time we vote in a centrist we're just shoveling coal a little slower. It might prolong the fall but at some point you have to stop fucking shoveling.
As to how people should vote, I leave that to their concience and situation. I dont know how I'll vote next time.
I have no idea where this is coming from but ok
We're working as a team to hold back fuckin fascism mate.
That's pretty much all the general is about now.
Have fun finding anyone willing to run for office with that mentality.
What makes you think that the case wouldn't have been the same with Bernie had he won? He would have still had the same structurally disadvantages in Congress that Clinton would have with regards to getting any of his policies past, and if he didn't, he would have suffered the same defeats during the midterm that Obama did due to depressed enthusiasm.
But choosing not to vote doesn't stop the shovel. It just abdicates one's say in the decision of whether to dump in a shovelful or a truckload.
People have said it here; it's not enough to just campaign on "wow those other guys are evil." People want MORE than that.
I didnt say anyone should stop voting. Make up your own minds.
And for those of us that have friends and experience in foreign countries, there's this extra bit of tin foil in the teeth - policies on issues like health care, workers rights, and public aid that are considered moderate (to the point that European/Asian right wing parties support them) somehow become "leftist" on this side of the Atlantic/Pacific. And when you bring this up, Democratic partisans will scream about how their party isn't center right or "'Murica is different" or "We need to be afraid of the rednecks with guns" or - my absolute favorite - do the racist bullshit passive aggressive dance where they suggest that the existence of minorities means that you can't have nice things in this country.
Hell, maybe they are right. If so, that's not a case to vote Democratic or abandon leftist ideas. It's a case for making sure that you or your kids are able to flee to a country that isn't going to put them on the street if they have a health problem.
I want a lot of things im never gonna get
The primaries are where you fight that war.
In the general it's a war with fascism.
And they use their control of Congress to fill the courts with loyal party men who will then strike down any attempts to fix the massive gerrymandering and voter suppression they use to maintain control, thus reinforcing the cycle.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
After that, we have more elections! More primaries, with more new young people and some of the old ones died, followed by more general elections.
And again (it's easy to miss stuff because this thread is moving so fast) the candidates don't campaign on being the lesser evil. They move their stances based on who they want to win the support of. There were significant concessions to the left the last time around. It is absolutely, unequivocally not just "those other guys are evil."
Yeah they suck p bad
Nobody ever gained power in a two-party system by being an unreliable voter. It doesn’t make anyone court you, it makes them move away from you.
If you’re not going to get on board the with the Democratic Party 100% no matter what, then let’s start the general strikes or whatever your non-electoral plan B is.
Then why reply to the argument that we should all vote against the fascist?
This comment deserves more spotlight.
Anecdotal- but I personally know two people who made arguments to me that Clinton would go to war with either Iran, North Korea, or Russia. One wrote in Bernie and the other voted for Stein.
Does it really? Seems like bullshit to me.
I was around on these forums and got roundly mocked for suggesting Trump might win, based largely on what I was hearing from back home and the general poor showing of the Dem campaign. I'm surprised I don't remember the fucking massive dogpile that would have gone down if someone had actually suggested Trump was better than Hillary.
we're not gonna be as amenable to handing over the keys after you've crashed the car
Then give me a better option. Win an election yourself or give me the road map for how we are gonna fix this non-electorally.
Because it sure seems to me that the only goal here is to make it really clear that it’s somebody else’s fault fascism won and not actually beating back fascism
This argument seems recursive.
Well, the way out of the loop is to find a driver we trust
The argument presented from the left is that centrism cant beat back fascism.
*looks at 2020 candidate slates, where the best we can do for a leftist is late-moving Warren or the only person to be so unlikeable they actually lost to Hillary Clinton in a national election*
Well that plan flopped. What now?
Is anyone asking you to support them in the primaries?
There's a difference between choosing the more electable choice over the one you'd prefer for the hope that they'll win, and trying to help the candidate win over the fascist after they've been chosen.
We need to do something differently, but every time someone on the left suggests we move further to the left it is met with “No, ya dumb lefty, you’re the reason we’re in this mess” and there’s no real suggestion about what to do differently except maybe we do the same stuff, but more earnestly, and this time you guys who didn’t want to vote for us last time need to vote for us!
It’s a little bit maddening
If what you’re doing isn’t working, try something else
But individuals owe their vote to the better candidate
This is true even the candidate is only slightly better—not that it matters because the gulf between Democrats and Republicans is vast on many, many vital issues
Saying “I know one candidate is a fascist and the other one isn’t, but the non-fascist didn’t do enough to earn my vote so I stayed home/voted for Stein/voted for the fascist” is absolutely unconscionable
Voting and voting correctly is a moral imperative and if more people recognized that we might not be in this crisis
The left breaking the center is what will let the fascists win, in this case. The center must hold.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Unless you mean the more centrism wins the more fascism becomes inevitable, which I don't think I agree with at all.
Then how are they gonna do it themselves? Whine about how it’s not their fault until everyone else surrenders?