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Star Trek: Amok Rhyme

JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
edited May 8 in Debate and/or Discourse
«13456754

Posts

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular

    SnicketysnickJacobkoshHonkCambiataZilla360NightslyrHappy Little Machine
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    This is a really nifty little video that uses actual numbers to articulate a point I've felt strongly for years, and refute another of those pernicious pop culture memes about Star Trek that aren't actually true:

    Shadowen
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    I feel like The Shat pulled enough exaggerated faces in the course of his tenure as Kirk to make the weirdly off-putting preview image that messes with his expression to give it the standard EYES WIDE OPEN WTF face all video preview images must have unnecessary.

    RMS OceanicJacobkoshChanusCambiataDisruptedCapitalistNightslyrMonwynshrykeShadowenMsAnthropycB557Heffling
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I feel like The Shat pulled enough exaggerated faces in the course of his tenure as Kirk to make the weirdly off-putting preview image that messes with his expression to give it the standard EYES WIDE OPEN WTF face all video preview images must have unnecessary.

    Star Trek was always a forward thinking show.

    MonwynShadowen
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular

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  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    I like Star Trek.

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  • CoinageCoinage The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter Registered User regular
    Don't forget that What We Left Behind is playing in some theaters on the 13th, a Monday is kind of annoying but I assume it was easier to get the slot.
    https://www.fathomevents.com/events/what-we-left-behind

    l5pfwe2qivac.jpg
    CambiataNightslyrMsAnthropyFeral
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    FARSCAPE

    WTF SEASON 3 THE FIRST 5 EPISODES ARE WILD AF

    HerrCronCambiataAl_watShadowenDanHibikiMancingtomNaphtaliZilla360chrono_travellerLanlaornThe DeliveratorHefflingdoomybearoverride367
  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Coinage wrote: »
    Don't forget that What We Left Behind is playing in some theaters on the 13th, a Monday is kind of annoying but I assume it was easier to get the slot.
    https://www.fathomevents.com/events/what-we-left-behind

    it's very good and if you didn't back it I highly recommend watching it!

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    kHDRsTc.png
  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    FARSCAPE

    WTF SEASON 3 THE FIRST 5 EPISODES ARE WILD AF

    Yuuuuuuuup

    sig.gif
    EriktheVikingGamerMsAnthropyZilla360Lanlaorn
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    FARSCAPE

    WTF SEASON 3 THE FIRST 5 EPISODES ARE WILD AF

    Oh just you wait for episode 6...

    sig.gif
  • RiusRius Registered User regular

    Jonathan Frakes just 100% full sending it

    NightslyrMancingtomRMS OceanicMsAnthropyAegisHefflingoverride367
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    we watched "A Matter of Honor" tonight

    IVZIrdo.png

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  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    Just finished The Sons of Mogh. Such a weird character episode for Worf and the Federation. We won't let you kill your brother even though it is an honored tradition, but we're totally down with mind wiping him and letting him live a lie.

    CambiataRichyNightslyrTofystedethZilla360chrono_travellerExtreaminatusAbsoluteZeroRchanenoverride367
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    Just finished The Sons of Mogh. Such a weird character episode for Worf and the Federation. We won't let you kill your brother even though it is an honored tradition, but we're totally down with mind wiping him and letting him live a lie.

    Yeah that's a weird one, essentially it's just killing the person without all the mess. Babylon 5 had a whole thing where that same thing was being used as a form of execution.

    RichyNightslyrJacobkoshZilla360
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Eh, the Federation has always had a problem with self-delusion, so I could see it practicing death-of-personality execution while claiming they don’t support capital punishment.

    Starfleet characters are always quick to point out that they’ve “evolved” past things like bigotry, but Simon Tarses in “The Drumhead” says he would’ve been rejected from Starfleet Academy if they had know about his Romulan grandfather and nobody corrects him.

    CambiataNightslyrCommander ZoomAuralynxHappy Little MachineZilla360Phoenix-DAbsoluteZerooverride367
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Eh, the Federation has always had a problem with self-delusion, so I could see it practicing death-of-personality execution while claiming they don’t support capital punishment.

    Starfleet characters are always quick to point out that they’ve “evolved” past things like bigotry, but Simon Tarses in “The Drumhead” says he would’ve been rejected from Starfleet Academy if they had know about his Romulan grandfather and nobody corrects him.

    If I remember that one, it’s not even considered execution; they’re basically good with wiping out Worf’s brother’s entire self and imprinting him with a new identity because then he’s still alive as far as being, like, not a corpse.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
    Nightslyroverride367
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Eh, the Federation has always had a problem with self-delusion, so I could see it practicing death-of-personality execution while claiming they don’t support capital punishment.

    Starfleet characters are always quick to point out that they’ve “evolved” past things like bigotry, but Simon Tarses in “The Drumhead” says he would’ve been rejected from Starfleet Academy if they had know about his Romulan grandfather and nobody corrects him.

    Nah, that's just inconsistent writing. If you read the memory-alpha on the article the writers even talk about how the whole ending was kinda odd and didn't quite work the way they filmed it.

    JacobkoshMsAnthropy
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited May 9
    Voyager had a better episode about assisted suicide. Voyager.

    (On the other hand, "Tuvix".)

    Commander Zoom on
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  • evilmrhenryevilmrhenry Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    This is a really nifty little video that uses actual numbers to articulate a point I've felt strongly for years, and refute another of those pernicious pop culture memes about Star Trek that aren't actually true:


    I've been rewatching the original series, (up to mid season 3) and the whole "redshirt dying to prove the situation is serious" thing isn't really a thing either. Sure people die every so often, but it's not really A Thing.

    JacobkoshTOGSolidMsAnthropyAnzekayChanusNightslyremp123override367
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 10
    So I'm on vacation and decided to load up Babylon 5 Crusade because I've never actually seen it before since I've heard how crappy it is, and oh boy were the rumors true.

    Now bad effects aren't why I don't like this show, I can get over that, it's that everything is poorly done, from editing to music, top to bottom it's just plain sloppy. The plot is also all over the place which is odd since the show has a very direct goal, is like those mass effect side missions you do that are pointless but you do anyway even though billions of lives are counting on you.
    I mean there are still a few good episodes but it's a tough show to sit through.
    I also jumped back to the first episode is B5 season 2 and the difference in quality is staggering.
    Also, great into line for Sheridan.
    -Your orders are to find the missing Minbari cruiser and meet it face to face
    -With all due respect, the last time I met a Minbari cruiser face to face, I sent it to hell.


    Edit. Also, who tasks saving the human race to Lumburg?

    DanHibiki on
    Zilla360
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited May 9
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    This is a really nifty little video that uses actual numbers to articulate a point I've felt strongly for years, and refute another of those pernicious pop culture memes about Star Trek that aren't actually true:


    I've been rewatching the original series, (up to mid season 3) and the whole "redshirt dying to prove the situation is serious" thing isn't really a thing either. Sure people die every so often, but it's not really A Thing.
    • "Kirk is always sleeping with the alien of the week" - nope!
    • "Redshirts die every episode" - nah
    • "Wesley is always saving the ship" - like, twice?
    • "The solution to the episode's problem is never heard from again" - often untrue, going back all the way to The Corbomite Maneuver! And even when not, they often take pains to mention why the solution will only work that one specific time!
    • "They never remember, mention, or address anything that has happened before. Reset button, reset button!" - sort of but also not really?
    • "Nobody in TNG ever has conflict" - horseshit!

    There is such a huge gulf between Memetic Star Trek, the show that exists in people's minds and SNL sketches and internet posts, and the actual things that happen in the actual show that it makes me wonder if anyone ever actually watches it. And it's not just in pop culture, where at least people being mistaken is normal and understandable if sometimes annoying, and it's not just internet culture, where being wrong is like, job 1, but also among actual self-professed fans. There's an entire cottage industry of Youtube content makers parroting a dumb hot take they first read on a usenet bulletin board from an asthmatic 19-year-old named Gordo in 1996.

    Jacobkosh on
    wanderingCommander ZoomZilla360evilbobMsAnthropyshrykeAnzekaySolarNightslyrRchanenYoshisummonsN1tSt4lker
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    So I'm on vacation and decided to load up Babylon 5 Crusade because I've never actually seen it before since I've heard how crappy it is, and oh boy were the rumors true.
    Now bad effects aren't why I don't like this show, I can get over that, it's that everything is poorly done, from editing to music, top to bottom it's just plain sloppy. The plot is also all over the place which is odd since the show has a very direct goal, is like those mass effect side missions you do that are pointless but you do anyway even though billions of lives are counting on you.
    I mean there are still a few good episodes but it's a tough show to sit through.
    I also jumped back to the first episode is B5 season 2 and the difference in quality is staggering.
    Also, great into line for Sheridan.
    -Your orders are to find the missing Minbari cruiser and meet it face to face
    -With all due respect, the last time I met a Minbari cruiser face to face, I sent it to hell.


    Edit. Also, who tasks saving the human race to Limburg?
    To be fair, any mention of season 1 of Babylon 5 is almost always followed by "Stick with it, it gets better".

    Unfortunately, in Crusades case, it never got a season 2 to see if it managed to get better.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Naphtali
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I feel like The Shat pulled enough exaggerated faces in the course of his tenure as Kirk to make the weirdly off-putting preview image that messes with his expression to give it the standard EYES WIDE OPEN WTF face all video preview images must have unnecessary.

    Looks totally normal to me.

    CxSCTVtWQAAkGWe.jpg

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    ShadowenJacobkoshZilla360CambiataThe Zombie PenguinMsAnthropyMetzger MeisterChanusNightslyrTofystedethAbsoluteZerocB557Kid PresentableAegisemp123HefflingN1tSt4lker
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    So I'm on vacation and decided to load up Babylon 5 Crusade because I've never actually seen it before since I've heard how crappy it is, and oh boy were the rumors true.

    Now bad effects aren't why I don't like this show, I can get over that, it's that everything is poorly done, from editing to music, top to bottom it's just plain sloppy. The plot is also all over the place which is odd since the show has a very direct goal, is like those mass effect side missions you do that are pointless but you do anyway even though billions of lives are counting on you.
    I mean there are still a few good episodes but it's a tough show to sit through.
    I also jumped back to the first episode is B5 season 2 and the difference in quality is staggering.
    Also, great into line for Sheridan.
    -Your orders are to find the missing Minbari cruiser and meet it face to face
    -With all due respect, the last time I met a Minbari cruiser face to face, I sent it to hell.


    Edit. Also, who tasks saving the human race to Limburg?

    Crusade is just such a sad string of missed opportunities and I think it kind of speaks poorly of JMS - or at least it illustrates how totally fucking burned-out he was, and in need of a mental health break - that he pissed up the wall at TNT requesting what were often not entirely unreasonable changes. I'm not one to stick up for network executives but the episodes that more appropriately reflected "his vision" were still boring and sloppy.

    In a vacuum, Gary Cole is a good pick to play a captain, he's a terrific actor with a lot of range beyond just being Bill Lumbergh, but in practice he thought he was too good for the material and it came through in his performance.

    I do actually kind of like the theme music, though.

  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    This is a really nifty little video that uses actual numbers to articulate a point I've felt strongly for years, and refute another of those pernicious pop culture memes about Star Trek that aren't actually true:


    This is jarring the first time you watch TOS after decades of second hand impressions of the show. It takes a few episodes to displace the imaginary show you expected in favor of the one you’re watching.

    smCQ5WE.jpg
    JacobkoshAnzekayIncenjucarNightslyrwanderingAeolusdallas
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    I've watched star trek for the first time when I was like four, and many times afterwards.

    Also read a ton of books as a kid.

    My view of Kirk is pretty close to what he's shown to be in the show, but that's probably an outlier because I've probably burned it into my mind at a very young age.

    The clichés about star trek are pretty strong. But the series became such a cult success precisely because it didn't fit the stereotypes of the time.

    Kirk wasn't the standard military leader of the shows of the time, he was way more cerebral than that, and while spock embodied using your mind instead of your fists to solve problems, kirk was still captain because he had great ideas, not a great biceps.

    Similarly, he was not a serial womanizer, not Zap Brannigan.

    But if someone lacks the context of the time, and hasn't watched much of the show, it might look like the clichés are true on a cursory glance.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    Commander ZoomNightslyrN1tSt4lker
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    I wonder if some of the false memes about the show are a result of network television airing certain episodes more often than others.

  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    Garthor wrote: »
    I wonder if some of the false memes about the show are a result of network television airing certain episodes more often than others.
    Fun fact: the TNG episode The Game is not just about, but is itself a form of hypnotic mind control, which is why it airs 10 times as often as other episodes

    chrono_travellerJacobkoshAnzekayNightslyrShadowenautono-wally, erotibot300TofystedethMonwynBloodySlothElbasunuemp123Hefflingoverride367
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    So I'm on vacation and decided to load up Babylon 5 Crusade because I've never actually seen it before since I've heard how crappy it is, and oh boy were the rumors true.
    Now bad effects aren't why I don't like this show, I can get over that, it's that everything is poorly done, from editing to music, top to bottom it's just plain sloppy. The plot is also all over the place which is odd since the show has a very direct goal, is like those mass effect side missions you do that are pointless but you do anyway even though billions of lives are counting on you.
    I mean there are still a few good episodes but it's a tough show to sit through.
    I also jumped back to the first episode is B5 season 2 and the difference in quality is staggering.
    Also, great into line for Sheridan.
    -Your orders are to find the missing Minbari cruiser and meet it face to face
    -With all due respect, the last time I met a Minbari cruiser face to face, I sent it to hell.


    Edit. Also, who tasks saving the human race to Limburg?
    To be fair, any mention of season 1 of Babylon 5 is almost always followed by "Stick with it, it gets better".

    Unfortunately, in Crusades case, it never got a season 2 to see if it managed to get better.

    Crusade is also a lot closer to B5 S5 when it comes to what is going on in the background.

    Also they chopped the show all to hell which is why it seems kinda all over the place. It's a show with 2 pilots after all.

    It had interesting ideas but the show itself is a mess. It also got cancelled not long before the big plot points were gonna start being rolled out. The obvious direct goal of the show at the start is almost certainly not where it was actually going.

  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    I feel like The Shat pulled enough exaggerated faces in the course of his tenure as Kirk to make the weirdly off-putting preview image that messes with his expression to give it the standard EYES WIDE OPEN WTF face all video preview images must have unnecessary.

    Looks totally normal to me.

    CxSCTVtWQAAkGWe.jpg

    "What was his name?"
    "Hm?"
    "The man, outside the walls, killed by the storm, what was his name? Where did he live, what color WERE HIS EYES? Ò^Ó *Gowron eyes*"

    Every Klingon warrior knows the crazy eyes are the first victory in any battle!

    NightslyrAbsoluteZeroVoodooVSheikz2
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 10
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    So I'm on vacation and decided to load up Babylon 5 Crusade because I've never actually seen it before since I've heard how crappy it is, and oh boy were the rumors true.

    Now bad effects aren't why I don't like this show, I can get over that, it's that everything is poorly done, from editing to music, top to bottom it's just plain sloppy. The plot is also all over the place which is odd since the show has a very direct goal, is like those mass effect side missions you do that are pointless but you do anyway even though billions of lives are counting on you.
    I mean there are still a few good episodes but it's a tough show to sit through.
    I also jumped back to the first episode is B5 season 2 and the difference in quality is staggering.
    Also, great into line for Sheridan.
    -Your orders are to find the missing Minbari cruiser and meet it face to face
    -With all due respect, the last time I met a Minbari cruiser face to face, I sent it to hell.


    Edit. Also, who tasks saving the human race to Limburg?

    Crusade is just such a sad string of missed opportunities and I think it kind of speaks poorly of JMS - or at least it illustrates how totally fucking burned-out he was, and in need of a mental health break - that he pissed up the wall at TNT requesting what were often not entirely unreasonable changes. I'm not one to stick up for network executives but the episodes that more appropriately reflected "his vision" were still boring and sloppy.

    In a vacuum, Gary Cole is a good pick to play a captain, he's a terrific actor with a lot of range beyond just being Bill Lumbergh, but in practice he thought he was too good for the material and it came through in his performance.

    I do actually kind of like the theme music, though.

    Also it's basically a star trek rip off down to the five year mission, except it's in the B5 universe. Only they barely visit any B5 worlds or races because it's always planet/aliens of the week.

    The main saving grace of the show is the snarky technomage doing a Merlin from Excalibur impersonation, only he's barely there because reasons.

    DanHibiki on
    Nightslyr
  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    This is a really nifty little video that uses actual numbers to articulate a point I've felt strongly for years, and refute another of those pernicious pop culture memes about Star Trek that aren't actually true:


    I've been rewatching the original series, (up to mid season 3) and the whole "redshirt dying to prove the situation is serious" thing isn't really a thing either. Sure people die every so often, but it's not really A Thing.
    • "Kirk is always sleeping with the alien of the week" - nope!
    • "Redshirts die every episode" - nah
    • "Wesley is always saving the ship" - like, twice?
    • "The solution to the episode's problem is never heard from again" - often untrue, going back all the way to The Corbomite Maneuver! And even when not, they often take pains to mention why the solution will only work that one specific time!
    • "They never remember, mention, or address anything that has happened before. Reset button, reset button!" - sort of but also not really?
    • "Nobody in TNG ever has conflict" - horseshit!

    There is such a huge gulf between Memetic Star Trek, the show that exists in people's minds and SNL sketches and internet posts, and the actual things that happen in the actual show that it makes me wonder if anyone ever actually watches it. And it's not just in pop culture, where at least people being mistaken is normal and understandable if sometimes annoying, and it's not just internet culture, where being wrong is like, job 1, but also among actual self-professed fans. There's an entire cottage industry of Youtube content makers parroting a dumb hot take they first read on a usenet bulletin board from an asthmatic 19-year-old named Gordo in 1996.

    I've been having conversations about this stuff with my Dad the last couple years, since we've both rewatched every Star Trek series on netflix within the last year or so. I keep remarking about the sort of stuff you listed above, and he's been 'well yeah, the Redshirts thing was always a joke but it was never actually a thing in the show' or 'yeah wesley is no where near as perfect or annoying as the internet would make you think'.

    I just had this big gulf between when I first saw Star Trek series (as a kid, with my dad, from single digits age to a young teen) and watching them as an adult like a decade and a half later. During that gulf all the jokes and assumptions just kinda bled into my memory and, upon watching them again, were immediately all shown to be completely incorrect.

    I need to finish my rewatch of TOS though! I only got about 8 or 9 episodes in before I ended up starting on the films again because of nostalgia for them.

    wanderingJacobkoshAuralynxNightslyrRchanen
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    The few episodes where Wesley actually does save the ship or turn out to be right all along were frontloaded in Season One (Naked Now, Datalore, When the Bough Breaks) so they left a bad first impression.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    JacobkoshAuralynxCambiataCommander ZoomNightslyrShadowenTofystedethAbsoluteZerodanxcB557emp123HefflingMvrckSeal
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    So I'm on vacation and decided to load up Babylon 5 Crusade because I've never actually seen it before since I've heard how crappy it is, and oh boy were the rumors true.

    Now bad effects aren't why I don't like this show, I can get over that, it's that everything is poorly done, from editing to music, top to bottom it's just plain sloppy. The plot is also all over the place which is odd since the show has a very direct goal, is like those mass effect side missions you do that are pointless but you do anyway even though billions of lives are counting on you.
    I mean there are still a few good episodes but it's a tough show to sit through.
    I also jumped back to the first episode is B5 season 2 and the difference in quality is staggering.
    Also, great into line for Sheridan.
    -Your orders are to find the missing Minbari cruiser and meet it face to face
    -With all due respect, the last time I met a Minbari cruiser face to face, I sent it to hell.


    Edit. Also, who tasks saving the human race to Limburg?

    Crusade is just such a sad string of missed opportunities and I think it kind of speaks poorly of JMS - or at least it illustrates how totally fucking burned-out he was, and in need of a mental health break - that he pissed up the wall at TNT requesting what were often not entirely unreasonable changes. I'm not one to stick up for network executives but the episodes that more appropriately reflected "his vision" were still boring and sloppy.

    In a vacuum, Gary Cole is a good pick to play a captain, he's a terrific actor with a lot of range beyond just being Bill Lumbergh, but in practice he thought he was too good for the material and it came through in his performance.

    I do actually kind of like the theme music, though.

    Also it's basically a star trek rip off down to the five year mission, except it's in the B5 universe. Only they barely visit any B5 worlds or races because it's always planet/aliens of the week.

    The main saving grace of the show is the snarky technomage doing a Merlin from Excalibur impersonation, only he's barely there because reasons.

    I don't see Star Trek ripoff at all. It's got none of the same things going on.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    I've watched star trek for the first time when I was like four, and many times afterwards.

    Also read a ton of books as a kid.

    My view of Kirk is pretty close to what he's shown to be in the show, but that's probably an outlier because I've probably burned it into my mind at a very young age.

    The clichés about star trek are pretty strong. But the series became such a cult success precisely because it didn't fit the stereotypes of the time.

    Kirk wasn't the standard military leader of the shows of the time, he was way more cerebral than that, and while spock embodied using your mind instead of your fists to solve problems, kirk was still captain because he had great ideas, not a great biceps.

    Similarly, he was not a serial womanizer, not Zap Brannigan.

    But if someone lacks the context of the time, and hasn't watched much of the show, it might look like the clichés are true on a cursory glance.

    I think we're clones. I also started with TOS when I was 4-5 years old. My mom bought most of the episodes on VHS. I still remember my first one - Operation: ANNIHILATE. My vision of Kirk is that of a guy who uses his cunning and wit far more than his fists or a phaser.

    And, yeah, he's very different than the typical protagonist of the time. I still live with my mom (I was born with a permanent physical disability and need a lot of care). She loves watching old westerns - The Rifleman, Gunsmoke, Big Valley, Wagon Train, Bonanza, Lawman, etc. - and the leads are almost the same person. I'd say that out of all of them, only Jarrod Barkley and Ben Cartwright approach Kirk in terms of trying to think their way out of conflict. The rest tend to solve every problem with a punch or drawn revolver/rifle, and there's not much in the way of thought guiding their actions.

    Kirk's moralizing was a lot different and decidedly more modern, too. A lot of the old shows emphasized the old (and likely fictional) code of the west. Never shoot first, never harm a lady, say your prayers/be a good Christian (The Rifleman is notorious for this, with a lot of episodes having Lucas explain the situation of the day to his son Mark through Biblical analogy). It was basically a code of conduct that was about the kind of person you should be. Kirk/Trek had a broader view. It wasn't just about personal honor (although it definitely had that too), but also a broader message. It's possible and desirable to make peace with your enemies, because they're people just like you. War isn't actually glamorous, and should be avoided. Race and nationality don't actually matter because, again, we're all just people. And a lot more, of course.

    I never really understood how different Kirk/Trek were until I started to get exposed to other shows from the same era. In some ways it was as modern/progressive to those shows as our current era of programming is to it.

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I've watched star trek for the first time when I was like four, and many times afterwards.

    Also read a ton of books as a kid.

    My view of Kirk is pretty close to what he's shown to be in the show, but that's probably an outlier because I've probably burned it into my mind at a very young age.

    The clichés about star trek are pretty strong. But the series became such a cult success precisely because it didn't fit the stereotypes of the time.

    Kirk wasn't the standard military leader of the shows of the time, he was way more cerebral than that, and while spock embodied using your mind instead of your fists to solve problems, kirk was still captain because he had great ideas, not a great biceps.

    Similarly, he was not a serial womanizer, not Zap Brannigan.

    But if someone lacks the context of the time, and hasn't watched much of the show, it might look like the clichés are true on a cursory glance.

    I think we're clones. I also started with TOS when I was 4-5 years old. My mom bought most of the episodes on VHS. I still remember my first one - Operation: ANNIHILATE. My vision of Kirk is that of a guy who uses his cunning and wit far more than his fists or a phaser.

    And, yeah, he's very different than the typical protagonist of the time. I still live with my mom (I was born with a permanent physical disability and need a lot of care). She loves watching old westerns - The Rifleman, Gunsmoke, Big Valley, Wagon Train, Bonanza, Lawman, etc. - and the leads are almost the same person. I'd say that out of all of them, only Jarrod Barkley and Ben Cartwright approach Kirk in terms of trying to think their way out of conflict. The rest tend to solve every problem with a punch or drawn revolver/rifle, and there's not much in the way of thought guiding their actions.

    Kirk's moralizing was a lot different and decidedly more modern, too. A lot of the old shows emphasized the old (and likely fictional) code of the west. Never shoot first, never harm a lady, say your prayers/be a good Christian (The Rifleman is notorious for this, with a lot of episodes having Lucas explain the situation of the day to his son Mark through Biblical analogy). It was basically a code of conduct that was about the kind of person you should be. Kirk/Trek had a broader view. It wasn't just about personal honor (although it definitely had that too), but also a broader message. It's possible and desirable to make peace with your enemies, because they're people just like you. War isn't actually glamorous, and should be avoided. Race and nationality don't actually matter because, again, we're all just people. And a lot more, of course.

    I never really understood how different Kirk/Trek were until I started to get exposed to other shows from the same era. In some ways it was as modern/progressive to those shows as our current era of programming is to it.

    Which is one reason when I just laugh and laugh when someone tries to "accuse" Star Trek of "moralizing". Star Trek was one of THE original moralizing Scifi shows, if not the original. It was its whole core, a huge part of its claim to fame and relevance.

    Maybe it's people who only know the cliches and expect star trek to be like that who want it to be like that.

    If there's one thing about Discovery that's true to Trek, it's the moralizing, and even THAT isn't nearly as strong as it should be.

    Imagine Picard's reaction to open and about Section 31...

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  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I've watched star trek for the first time when I was like four, and many times afterwards.

    Also read a ton of books as a kid.

    My view of Kirk is pretty close to what he's shown to be in the show, but that's probably an outlier because I've probably burned it into my mind at a very young age.

    The clichés about star trek are pretty strong. But the series became such a cult success precisely because it didn't fit the stereotypes of the time.

    Kirk wasn't the standard military leader of the shows of the time, he was way more cerebral than that, and while spock embodied using your mind instead of your fists to solve problems, kirk was still captain because he had great ideas, not a great biceps.

    Similarly, he was not a serial womanizer, not Zap Brannigan.

    But if someone lacks the context of the time, and hasn't watched much of the show, it might look like the clichés are true on a cursory glance.

    I think we're clones. I also started with TOS when I was 4-5 years old. My mom bought most of the episodes on VHS. I still remember my first one - Operation: ANNIHILATE. My vision of Kirk is that of a guy who uses his cunning and wit far more than his fists or a phaser.

    And, yeah, he's very different than the typical protagonist of the time. I still live with my mom (I was born with a permanent physical disability and need a lot of care). She loves watching old westerns - The Rifleman, Gunsmoke, Big Valley, Wagon Train, Bonanza, Lawman, etc. - and the leads are almost the same person. I'd say that out of all of them, only Jarrod Barkley and Ben Cartwright approach Kirk in terms of trying to think their way out of conflict. The rest tend to solve every problem with a punch or drawn revolver/rifle, and there's not much in the way of thought guiding their actions.

    Kirk's moralizing was a lot different and decidedly more modern, too. A lot of the old shows emphasized the old (and likely fictional) code of the west. Never shoot first, never harm a lady, say your prayers/be a good Christian (The Rifleman is notorious for this, with a lot of episodes having Lucas explain the situation of the day to his son Mark through Biblical analogy). It was basically a code of conduct that was about the kind of person you should be. Kirk/Trek had a broader view. It wasn't just about personal honor (although it definitely had that too), but also a broader message. It's possible and desirable to make peace with your enemies, because they're people just like you. War isn't actually glamorous, and should be avoided. Race and nationality don't actually matter because, again, we're all just people. And a lot more, of course.

    I never really understood how different Kirk/Trek were until I started to get exposed to other shows from the same era. In some ways it was as modern/progressive to those shows as our current era of programming is to it.

    Which is one reason when I just laugh and laugh when someone tries to "accuse" Star Trek of "moralizing". Star Trek was one of THE original moralizing Scifi shows, if not the original. It was its whole core, a huge part of its claim to fame and relevance.

    Maybe it's people who only know the cliches and expect star trek to be like that who want it to be like that.

    If there's one thing about Discovery that's true to Trek, it's the moralizing, and even THAT isn't nearly as strong as it should be.

    Imagine Picard's reaction to open and about Section 31...

    I like Discovery, but it's weird how well everyone takes Section 31. It's an extralegal paramilitary group with its own ships, answerable to no one, that's willing to commit genocide. I feel like that merits more than wagging your finger while saying "I don't approve of your methods!"

    DSC Season 2 plays a lot better if Section 31 is just Starfleet Intelligence.

    autono-wally, erotibot300NightslyrVoodooV
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    "Section 31" is consistently one of the worst, most inconsistent parts of Trek. My head-canon is that Section 31 is basically disowned post-Discovery and all future instances are their own unrelated thing. Because Section 31 is lame, and the further it is from my trek, the better.

    shrykeNightslyrN1tSt4lker
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