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Star Trek: Amok Rhyme

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Posts

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    They may not give Riker a lot to do after S4, but they give Frakes some great scenes (butting heads with Jellico, Frame of Mind.)

    On the episode with the metaphasic sheilding and man, I like this Ferangi scientist and it's a bummer he dies.

    JacobkoshMsAnthropySnicketysnickshrykeZilla360
  • SnicketysnickSnicketysnick The Greatest Hype Man in WesterosRegistered User regular
    edited October 10
    evilbob wrote: »
    Not enough Babylon 5 though.



    :heartbeat: B5

    Snicketysnick on
    7qmGNt5.png
    D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
    autono-wally, erotibot300Zilla360Jandaru
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I love Trek and the Culture and I feel like if there was ever a crossover the Culture would encounter the Federation and say "we need to leave these guys alone to do their thing, they're doing just fine without us and they should develop in their own way"

    override367Zilla360Seal
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    Solar wrote: »
    I love Trek and the Culture and I feel like if there was ever a crossover the Culture would encounter the Federation and say "we need to leave these guys alone to do their thing, they're doing just fine without us and they should develop in their own way"
    As I said years ago, all of these arguments come down to who's telling the story.

    If it's Roddenberry, the Culture is dismantled after Kirk makes an impassioned speech about human achievement and the need for opportunity and, yes, struggle.

    If it's Banks, the Culture pats the Federation on the head and gives it a lolly.

    (that's from a 2014 thread, and the LJ comment I reference is even older.)

    Commander Zoom on
    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
    CambiataWinkyoverride367Zilla360
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I think the Culture would be very concerned with the state of AI rights within the Federation. The Federation has generally come down on the right side of the subject when confronted with it, but I suspect they'd be less than impressed with the outcome of The Measure of a Man since it did nothing to prevent Starfleet from attempting to grab Lal in The Offspring; and the EMH mining crew would definitely draw the attention of SC. The Federation's attitudes towards genetic engineering and cybernetic augmentation would be considered extremely conservative, but there's probably some faction of the Culture that holds similar views. AI rights though are an area that the Culture takes very seriously.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    autono-wally, erotibot300CambiataWinkyZilla360
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    sig.gif
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    I think the Culture would be very concerned with the state of AI rights within the Federation. The Federation has generally come down on the right side of the subject when confronted with it, but I suspect they'd be less than impressed with the outcome of The Measure of a Man since it did nothing to prevent Starfleet from attempting to grab Lal in The Offspring; and the EMH mining crew would definitely draw the attention of SC. The Federation's attitudes towards genetic engineering and cybernetic augmentation would be considered extremely conservative, but there's probably some faction of the Culture that holds similar views. AI rights though are an area that the Culture takes very seriously.

    brb writing short story where Data's existence and presence aboard the Enterprise was actually arranged by Special Circumstances

    Cambiata
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    What's great is the idea that the Culture exists in Star Trek and is secretly aware of the Federation and is putzing around out there behind the scenes is consistent with both canons (in canon, the Culture visited Earth in the 1970s and decided to leave it as a control group so they have chosen not to contact it).

    Hey, Discovery writers, give me a call

    Cambiata
  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    -
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    But luckily averted thanks to the crew of the Orville.

    RichyZilla360
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    There are actually a few situations roughly analogous to the Federation in Culture novels, if I remember correctly the central conflict of Use of Weapons is essentially about that (there's a multi-system government that's in the middle of big shifts regarding AI rights).

    So by historical precedent the way the Culture would handle it is in the normal SC way of "send someone diplomatically who looks like they're doing one thing but are doing something totally different".

    The Culture also basically never goes to war. The only time they did over the course of the novels is the Idiran war and there's a whole other book about how they regretted it.

  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    edited October 10
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to directly collaborate with the Federation until after the concept of AI as real people was thoroughly worked out.

    Cambiata on
    WinkyCommander ZoomHappy Little Machineoverride367Zilla360
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to help out until after the concept of AI as real people was thorough worked out.

    I think it still works if this was the sense in which they decided to make Earth a "control group". They wanted to find out what would happen to a planet if they never started making overt diplomatic overtures towards them, so Contact is officially hiding the Culture from them. Of course, SC Minds have a way of doing what they want regardless of Contact's official positions...

    I kind of love the idea of, like, the Federation faces an existential threat that they cannot possibly face because their technology just isn't there, and at the last second a GSV just pops out of warp as a literal Deus Ex Machina. "Oh hey, we didn't want to do this because we were trying not to make our presence known, but we like your guys' style and aren't willing to let you go extinct."

    CambiataHappy Little Machineoverride367swaylow
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to help out until after the concept of AI as real people was thorough worked out.

    I think it still works if this was the sense in which they decided to make Earth a "control group". They wanted to find out what would happen to a planet if they never started making overt diplomatic overtures towards them, so Contact is officially hiding the Culture from them. Of course, SC Minds have a way of doing what they want regardless of Contact's official positions...

    I kind of love the idea of, like, the Federation faces an existential threat that they cannot possibly face because their technology just isn't there, and at the last second a GSV just pops out of warp as a literal Deus Ex Machina. "Oh hey, we didn't want to do this because we were trying not to make our presence known, but we like your guys' style and aren't willing to let you go extinct."

    I believe you've essentially just told us that Q is a ship's avatar.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


    CambiataWinkyRMS OceanicMonwynHappy Little MachineTofystedethswaylowhonovere
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to help out until after the concept of AI as real people was thorough worked out.

    I think it still works if this was the sense in which they decided to make Earth a "control group". They wanted to find out what would happen to a planet if they never started making overt diplomatic overtures towards them, so Contact is officially hiding the Culture from them. Of course, SC Minds have a way of doing what they want regardless of Contact's official positions...

    I kind of love the idea of, like, the Federation faces an existential threat that they cannot possibly face because their technology just isn't there, and at the last second a GSV just pops out of warp as a literal Deus Ex Machina. "Oh hey, we didn't want to do this because we were trying not to make our presence known, but we like your guys' style and aren't willing to let you go extinct."

    I believe you've essentially just told us that Q is a ship's avatar.

    Holy shit.

    autono-wally, erotibot300RMS OceanicWinkyCommander ZoomMonwynHappy Little MachineNaphtaliTofystedethswaylow
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    _
    iOS: hlprmnky | PSN: hlprmnky_2 | SC2: Callow.126
    Cambiataautono-wally, erotibot300WinkyPhillishereswaylowZilla360
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Zilla360
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to help out until after the concept of AI as real people was thorough worked out.

    I think it still works if this was the sense in which they decided to make Earth a "control group". They wanted to find out what would happen to a planet if they never started making overt diplomatic overtures towards them, so Contact is officially hiding the Culture from them. Of course, SC Minds have a way of doing what they want regardless of Contact's official positions...

    I kind of love the idea of, like, the Federation faces an existential threat that they cannot possibly face because their technology just isn't there, and at the last second a GSV just pops out of warp as a literal Deus Ex Machina. "Oh hey, we didn't want to do this because we were trying not to make our presence known, but we like your guys' style and aren't willing to let you go extinct."

    I believe you've essentially just told us that Q is a ship's avatar.

    Holy shit.

    Yeah, this is like new canon for me.

    It fits way too perfectly. Especially the idea of Q flitting around acting like a jerk but really he’s preparing them for future situations.

    I wonder if they will at all touch upon All Good Things as being Q setting up the board for Star Trek Picard

    CambiataHappy Little MachineZilla360
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    I would love a Season 2 Picard encounter with Q after they've run out of android-fu and Romulan swordfighting-related plot.

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    OSvv7zs.png


  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Player of Games was amazing for me, because I was essentially early-book Gurgeh, to in later years as I became more liberal, being end book Gurgeh. And the book partially held my hand through that experience.

    autono-wally, erotibot300Winky
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Yeah.. Reading the culture has really opened my mind to a degree, too.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    Winky
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Yeah.. Reading the culture has really opened my mind to a degree, too.

    The only other author (sci-fi or otherwise) who has had as dramatic of an influence on me and my personal beliefs is Ursula K LeGuin.

    It’s funny too because reading The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness, it becomes immediately apparent where Banks gets his material from.

    Caedwyr
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Yeah.. Reading the culture has really opened my mind to a degree, too.

    The only other author (sci-fi or otherwise) who has had as dramatic of an influence on me and my personal beliefs is Ursula K LeGuin.

    It’s funny too because reading The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness, it becomes immediately apparent where Banks gets his material from.

    Terry Pratchett and Margaret Atwood, too, for me. There's something refreshing about the kind of hard-edged decency they represent. It's so much more compelling than the kind of simpering, apolitical "nice" preached by most Americans.

    autono-wally, erotibot300
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Yeah.. Reading the culture has really opened my mind to a degree, too.

    The only other author (sci-fi or otherwise) who has had as dramatic of an influence on me and my personal beliefs is Ursula K LeGuin.

    It’s funny too because reading The Dispossessed and The Left Hand of Darkness, it becomes immediately apparent where Banks gets his material from.

    That’s an interesting coincidence because the other “model” for humans and AIs coexisting that came into my head reading this Federation/Culture compare and contrast the thread has going is the one waaaaaaaay over on the other end of an axis, the Kesh from Always Coming Home - a book which I recently picked back up and read after bouncing right off it as a callow teenager who had heard that LeGuin was worth reading, but who was entirely unprepared to sit the fuck still and think for long enough at a time to engage with that particular novel.

    _
    iOS: hlprmnky | PSN: hlprmnky_2 | SC2: Callow.126
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Player of Games was amazing for me, because I was essentially early-book Gurgeh, to in later years as I became more liberal, being end book Gurgeh. And the book partially held my hand through that experience.

    Yes! I really wish everyone who has ever been part of the alt-right movement could just read and internalize Player of Games. The message of the book is almost directly the cure for the disease of our times, in that we have become completely wrapped up in winning a game that determines the fate of our society and we seem to have completely forgotten the point of playing the game in the first place.

    CambiataHappy Little Machine
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Player of Games was amazing for me, because I was essentially early-book Gurgeh, to in later years as I became more liberal, being end book Gurgeh. And the book partially held my hand through that experience.

    Yes! I really wish everyone who has ever been part of the alt-right movement could just read and internalize Player of Games. The message of the book is almost directly the cure for the disease of our times, in that we have become completely wrapped up in winning a game that determines the fate of our society and we seem to have completely forgotten the point of playing the game in the first place.

    Uh, what?

  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Player of Games was amazing for me, because I was essentially early-book Gurgeh, to in later years as I became more liberal, being end book Gurgeh. And the book partially held my hand through that experience.

    Yes! I really wish everyone who has ever been part of the alt-right movement could just read and internalize Player of Games. The message of the book is almost directly the cure for the disease of our times, in that we have become completely wrapped up in winning a game that determines the fate of our society and we seem to have completely forgotten the point of playing the game in the first place.

    Uh, what?
    shryke wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Player of Games was amazing for me, because I was essentially early-book Gurgeh, to in later years as I became more liberal, being end book Gurgeh. And the book partially held my hand through that experience.

    Yes! I really wish everyone who has ever been part of the alt-right movement could just read and internalize Player of Games. The message of the book is almost directly the cure for the disease of our times, in that we have become completely wrapped up in winning a game that determines the fate of our society and we seem to have completely forgotten the point of playing the game in the first place.

    Uh, what?

    I could write an essay. There’s a lot of critical parts to it: the things it has to say about gender in a hierarchical society being the most obvious, the idea that politics is really a sort of game we play to make decisions about how society is run, Gurgeh’s journey from being obsessed with winning and the thrill at cheating, and feeling listless at a seeming lack of identity and passively longing for a more rigid structure for him to derive meaning from, to coming to understand that the consequences of the game mattered far more than the playing of it, to finally seeing the fundamental value and taking pride in his identity as Culture, which is a more valuable identity than some assigned variable at birth could ever be.

    Cambiata
  • WinkyWinky Registered User regular
    Actually maybe I should write an essay

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Actually maybe I should write an essay

    I'd love to read it

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  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    Watching the final DS9 story arc again...the back and forth editing between the Fire Caves and the Battle of Cardassia made it feel like Wynn and Dukat were in those caves for weeks.

    GONG-00 on
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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    These last couple pages have been a real delight, and here is how they have impacted me directly:
    The huge chart of all the Star Trek novel-verse caused me to remember that I picked up all three of David Mack’s Gods of Night books when they were on sale for like a dollar, and never read them.
    So now I’ve read them, and while I would not stoop to calling them bad per se I am furious about
    the “oh them, yeah that was just some humans fucking with a TOS-tier Godlike Alien of the Week, but don’t worry - we totally fixed it!” way that the Borg ended up being handled. I saw it coming midway through the middle book and by the end I was honestly hate-reading as much as I was interested in the story. Ugh!
    Then I read Winky’s post and realized that while I have at some point in the past consumed the Culture novels, it’s quite possible that I didn’t really read them. So now I have an extensive reading project ahead of me.
    For all this pain, and all this joy, Star Trek thread, I thank you.

    I absolutely recommend rereading Culture novels, or if one or two didn't land for you then try reading some more. There was definitely a moment where the Culture suddenly clicked for me and I started understanding what Banks was doing and loving it. The problem is that he does everything in his power to not make it accessible. He doesn't seem to want you to read the book and then just go "I get it", he wants you to have dwell on it for a while and think about the things that he doesn't show you or spell out for you to see what he's really trying to say. I think it's a big part of why I adore the Culture so much but it also really hurts the Culture's widespread appeal.

    Player of Games was amazing for me, because I was essentially early-book Gurgeh, to in later years as I became more liberal, being end book Gurgeh. And the book partially held my hand through that experience.

    I just recently started the Culture series and am only on the 2nd book. I'd appreciate if discussion could be moved to the Culture thread, which I am actively avoiding so I don't ruin a major plot point.

    Thanks!

    If a movement doesn't have someone that can sit down opposite those in a position of power and strike a deal, how can that movement achieve success?
    Winky
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    I would love a Season 2 Picard encounter with Q after they've run out of android-fu and Romulan swordfighting-related plot.

    Picard: "Wait, why do YOU look so old? At least Data was a dream."

  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    I would love a Season 2 Picard encounter with Q after they've run out of android-fu and Romulan swordfighting-related plot.

    Picard: "Wait, why do YOU look so old? At least Data was a dream."

    Q: "I didn't want to hurt your feelings, mon capitan. I know how fragile human egos can be."

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Auralynx wrote: »
    I would love a Season 2 Picard encounter with Q after they've run out of android-fu and Romulan swordfighting-related plot.

    Picard: "Wait, why do YOU look so old? At least Data was a dream."

    Q: "I didn't want to hurt your feelings, mon capitan. I know how fragile human egos can be."

    Picard: (wry smile) "Human egos?"

    Commander Zoom on
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    Auralynx
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Yeah Q being old would be funny for that. Or as he said once, he could just appear as a woman.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Picard plot twist:
    The dog is really Q.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    Picard plot twist:
    The dog is really Q.

    Double twist:
    Picard always knew it but hey, a dog is a dog.

    Ninja Snarl P on
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  • MonwynMonwyn Registered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to help out until after the concept of AI as real people was thorough worked out.

    I think it still works if this was the sense in which they decided to make Earth a "control group". They wanted to find out what would happen to a planet if they never started making overt diplomatic overtures towards them, so Contact is officially hiding the Culture from them. Of course, SC Minds have a way of doing what they want regardless of Contact's official positions...

    I kind of love the idea of, like, the Federation faces an existential threat that they cannot possibly face because their technology just isn't there, and at the last second a GSV just pops out of warp as a literal Deus Ex Machina. "Oh hey, we didn't want to do this because we were trying not to make our presence known, but we like your guys' style and aren't willing to let you go extinct."

    I believe you've essentially just told us that Q is a ship's avatar.
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Winky wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    The Federation is a human civilization that keeps AIs as tools, and the Culture is an AI civilization that keeps humans as pets. There'd be war between them.

    Nah. The Culture wouldn't do that. Winky's idea is spot on, Special Circumstances would maneuver certain helpful people together to get the Federation to rethink it's policy towards artificial life. Data being key, since a life actually created by a Federation person would have much more impact than any created by The Culture. They'd have thoroughly researched Picard, Riker, the judge lady, and Bruce Maddox, and would have subtly pushed each of these pieces so that they came to a crisis, then allowed each person to have the effect they had in Measure of a Man.

    It's amazing how well it works as a concept. Winky, looking forward to seeing your script.

    Of course, the Culture would also be freely giving out all sorts of technology to The Federation, but Minds would not be volunteering to help out until after the concept of AI as real people was thorough worked out.

    I think it still works if this was the sense in which they decided to make Earth a "control group". They wanted to find out what would happen to a planet if they never started making overt diplomatic overtures towards them, so Contact is officially hiding the Culture from them. Of course, SC Minds have a way of doing what they want regardless of Contact's official positions...

    I kind of love the idea of, like, the Federation faces an existential threat that they cannot possibly face because their technology just isn't there, and at the last second a GSV just pops out of warp as a literal Deus Ex Machina. "Oh hey, we didn't want to do this because we were trying not to make our presence known, but we like your guys' style and aren't willing to let you go extinct."

    I believe you've essentially just told us that Q is a ship's avatar.

    This, uh

    This makes more sense than it should

    uH3IcEi.png
    WinkyHappy Little MachineCommander ZoomCambiatahlprmnkyShadowenSolarEnc
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Monwyn wrote: »
    Auralynx wrote: »
    I believe you've essentially just told us that Q is a ship's avatar.

    This, uh

    This makes more sense than it should
    Ship’s log, supplement to ongoing log, project <REDACTED>: Day 2,913. Nobody suspects a thing. This is already the best prank I have ever pulled, and I can’t really see a way it doesn’t get a lot better before the wheels come off. I love this job.
    <Attached media for this log entry: 4-dimensional representation of the Ship’s avatar high-fiving itself with the aid of a small artificial wormhole>

    _
    iOS: hlprmnky | PSN: hlprmnky_2 | SC2: Callow.126
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  • initiatefailureinitiatefailure Registered User regular
    Well I've finished watching Voyager.

    It was... abrupt.

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  • StrikorStrikor Calibrations? Calibrations! Registered User regular
    It's probably for the better. Voyager writers had trouble keeping consistency in the same episode, a story arc would have been...interesting.

    Okay I now want to see that trainwreck now that I think about it.

    I was killing Thresher Maws on foot before I knew it was a Krogan rite of passage.
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