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[GoT/ASoIaF]: A Fraction of Debatable Propriety and Open Spoilers

ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
edited May 13 in Debate and/or Discourse
Game of Thrones is an HBO series based mostly on a mostly finished book series by George R.R. Martin.

On the one hand, ASoIaF has a considerably larger plot; making it a suitable denominator.

On the other, GoT is 73/74ths complete to aSoIaF's 5/7ths; rendering this representation quite improper.

Thus concludes the objective facts portion of our discussion.

Open TV Spoilers.
Please spoiler book talk.
Please do not discuss leaks at all.

Please remember that we're all reasonably respectful people here, and try to avoid flaming fellow posters because you think their opinion rings false.

If you already did not like this OP, please stay tuned for a Behind-the-Draft look at why you're really not going to like it.

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Posts

  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    In my head canon. Arya died and the horse was her hallucination as she lay there dying with all the other people who didn’t have magic plot armor. It would have been a bold choice but thoroughly earned from the results of the plot.

    Heir
  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Euron even went out like kai leng..

    Cant wait for the last ep!
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  • DacDac Registered User regular
    Organichu wrote:
    honestly every after-episode insight from the writers makes this show worse for me. i am happier not watching them.

    I never watch these kinds of shows out of principle.

    If you need to explain to me what you were trying to say, you failed.

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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    I know it's been said to death in predictions before tonight's episode, but what would have made so much more narrative sense and investment than the random right turn into crazyland:

    Have Dany be warned like she was in the show, she goes for a really smart tactical strike, accidentally triggers a wildfire cache killing thousands. She's horrified, the audience is horrified, Jon and Tyrion are exactly as horrified as they were in the episode, thinking she did it intentionally. Have the mounting pressure between her defending herself justly against people who are trying to slot her into the crazy targaryen hole vs people who see evidence that shows to them that she's going mad.

    But hey I suppose if you have to wrap it up in just one ep left there's no room for interesting stories or nuance, just gotta checklist the major special effects scenes.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I feel like I just sat through an eight season telling of The Aristocrats joke.

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I'm not having the bad reaction most people seem to be, but that's because I took my vaccine before season 1. Good or bad, high or low, I was in this for spoilers to the book ending. Purely as a collection of facts, I'm mostly satisfied. I got annoyed at changes in the story the same way I'd get annoyed by inaccuracies in a wiki.

    It's like if I missed the last 15 minutes of a movie because I really had to pee. I'm getting the stupid buddy in the car cliff notes. It's getting the job done.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    At the end of the day: I think this episode could have landed very well in position 9 of a 10 episode season.

    So many of the things irritating me are short cuts, lack of nuance in the right places, and radical shifts in power dynamics every episode (after the second) because they're trying to cram a 10 episodes of twists in as well.

    Arya / Hound infiltrating King's Landing / Red Keep should have been episode 8. Jaime could have been captured at the start of it and released at the end, placing him sufficiently behind.

    We could have had a farewell to Vary episode in 7, delving into his efforts to undermine Dany; possibly involving flashbacks to parallel his efforts in the last days of Aerys.

    We could have seen Dany revisiting the scene from the House of the Undying in a dream. Recalling the betrayals of Meereen and protracted, bloody resistance. Something.

    They also could have used the Inside the Episodes to much better effect by filling in off-screen nuance rather than highlighting very obvious things and making them seem more contrived.

    Example: Why did Varys take off his jewelry? We'll never know. This would be a great little detail to focus on and say "He wanted to ensure his little birds would find them so they could bribe their way out". Or just have a better life.

    Whatever. What I don't need, what no one needed, was a reminder that Jaime and Cersei were the incest twins, so your intent was to go back to that.

    Yes. We know. You're being a little hard on yourself as filmmakers if you think that failed to come across pretty clearly.

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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    Pretty sure Varys took off his rings because they are the seals by which he marks official letters and he wanted to pretend he wasn’t writing one

    Handkor
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    The fundamental problem of this season's writing is that apparently, 8 seasons of suffering, examination, struggle and emotional engagement with others was not enough to change even the slightest thing about Jaime...

    ...but hearing some bells was enough to tip The Breaker Of Chains into committing genocide.

    I figured we were going for a Mad Queen ending for Dany, but I thought it would make more sense than this. Hell, up until the last possible minute I thought she was about to spot Jaime running through the streets of the city, realize Tyrion had betrayed her, see how her armies responded to Jon's "stand down", and then snap as she realized she had won the war and lost her throne. That would have made sense.

    Instead, "she decided to make it personal." Fuck B&W.

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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    I know it's been said to death in predictions before tonight's episode, but what would have made so much more narrative sense and investment than the random right turn into crazyland:

    Have Dany be warned like she was in the show, she goes for a really smart tactical strike, accidentally triggers a wildfire cache killing thousands. She's horrified, the audience is horrified, Jon and Tyrion are exactly as horrified as they were in the episode, thinking she did it intentionally. Have the mounting pressure between her defending herself justly against people who are trying to slot her into the crazy targaryen hole vs people who see evidence that shows to them that she's going mad.

    But hey I suppose if you have to wrap it up in just one ep left there's no room for interesting stories or nuance, just gotta checklist the major special effects scenes.

    There are so many ways this could have been done better than "Dany sees the red keep and burns the city to the ground because... reasons we guess?"

    Like I'm fine with the targ madness befalling Dany. There's been enough foreshadowing and she's gone through enough shit in very recent memory that ok, sure, I can buy that.

    But they handled it so poorly that I'm actually having a hard time coming up with a worse way to do it.

    Maybe have her flip a coin with a smiley face on one side and "burn all the things" on the other side and then address the camera and say "Like the thing the people said about when a Targaryen is born? Do you 'member that? The thing about the coin flip? Oh no it came up burn all the things well I guess that's that!"

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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    I’m very surprised that Jaime’s only role in Cersei’s death was to hug her and go out like lovers. I’m not one for buying into Jaime Lannister as a character with a redemption, but that one seemed like a gimme putt.

    Apparently valonqar can also mean “falling masonry.” It’s a pretty clever play on words but you have to speak High Valyrian to get it

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    If they really wanted her to go mad, I'd have had the battle happen, and the surrender happen and her be kinda smirking down at Jon, and Cersei be pulling her hair out in madness up in the keep and then Dany realizes that Drogon is looking at those civilians mighty hungrily. Like, sure, he likes Dany a lot and he'll listen to her most of the time, but he's a hungry wild animal who just got told it was OK to to kill people. So there she is, at the moment of her triumph, she was right and all these other idiots were wrong and shes going to win and the people are cheering and then Drogon reaches down in horrific motion and just grabs someone from below him and devours them. In front of everyone. Jon is horrified, everyone is horrified and the Drogon just leaps up into the air and starts destroying everything. And Dany realizes she can't stop him. That maybe she doesn't want to stop him, and just revels in the destruction.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    I’m very surprised that Jaime’s only role in Cersei’s death was to hug her and go out like lovers. I’m not one for buying into Jaime Lannister as a character with a redemption, but that one seemed like a gimme putt.

    Apparently valonqar can also mean “falling masonry.” It’s a pretty clever play on words but you have to speak High Valyrian to get it

    my girlfriend hasn't read the books so she had to deal with a solid minute or two of me ranting about how a certain prophecy was 100% accurate UP UNTIL IT WASN'T BECAUSE PLOT LOL

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    Yeah. So the sad part is you can see how with the source material guiding this story it could have worked. It could have been great. It’s not like the heel turn wasn’t foreshadowed or built up. We all saw it coming. With good reason.

    But the rushed cliff notes version felt unearned.

    Which sucks. Because done properly this could’ve been the ultimate game of thrones moment. This is Joffrey deciding to behead Ned. This is the red wedding. This is the viper slipping up and letting the mountain crush his skull. But from the point of view of our hero’s playing the villain. Jon gives us a great point of view character in the midst of it too.

    It’s so close to being great. But because it missed it, it’s likely going to be viewed as terrible.

    Maybe there’s some poetry there given Danys story?

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  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    The redemption arc that went off the rails was Sandor's, I believe. I don't think that sept he joined was meant to get slaughtered, which froze him into his angry state. I think the real Hound vs. Mountain rumble happens with Sandor as the Faith's champion and Gregor as the Queen's. It might end in double death, but I think Sandor ends at peace, giving up his bitterness. He's got to embody the meaning of a True Knight without needing vows in order for his story to wrap up.

    Jaime's story was abandoned seasons ago when he was present in King's Landing when he should not have been.

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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    I'd echo that meme of "I'm not even mad, I'm just disappointed".

    Except I am mad. I really am. It seems like 9/10 of the fan theories I read for how this should have gone instead are way better than what actually happened.

    I know criticizing military tactics on this show is basically reduced to a meme at this point but when I saw cavalry charging through crowded streets of stacked infantry I basically threw my arms up in the air and mentally walked away.

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  • CaptainPeacockCaptainPeacock Board Game Hoarder Top o' the LakeRegistered User regular
    Captain Darling: I put a note in my diary today. It simply says…”bugger”.

    Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom, etc.
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  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    If they really wanted her to go mad, I'd have had the battle happen, and the surrender happen and her be kinda smirking down at Jon, and Cersei be pulling her hair out in madness up in the keep and then Dany realizes that Drogon is looking at those civilians mighty hungrily. Like, sure, he likes Dany a lot and he'll listen to her most of the time, but he's a hungry wild animal who just got told it was OK to to kill people. So there she is, at the moment of her triumph, she was right and all these other idiots were wrong and shes going to win and the people are cheering and then Drogon reaches down in horrific motion and just grabs someone from below him and devours them. In front of everyone. Jon is horrified, everyone is horrified and the Drogon just leaps up into the air and starts destroying everything. And Dany realizes she can't stop him. That maybe she doesn't want to stop him, and just revels in the destruction.

    Have Drogon land on the wall closer to the Red Keep. The bells begin to toll and Dany looks out over the city with a slight smile. Then she looks at the Red Keep and sees Cersei standing with Qyburn and the Mountain on a parapet watching everything. Her smile slowly melts into a mask of rage and she mutters in a low growl something along the lines of "No, she burns". Drogon takes off and heads straight for the keep. She sees people fleeing out of the Red Keep through the gate and she again mutters the same thing the proceeds lights up the entire outer wall of the Red Keep including the gate that people are trying to flee through. She turns back and sees Cersei fleeing inside the keep and proceeds to burn the Red Keep to the ground except lighting up the outer wall starts an inferno that begins to rapidly spread throughout the city igniting wildfire caches.

    There, she turns, hundreds of thousands still die horribly and it's at least remotely fucking believable.

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    The hounds story line in the show at least was not one of full redemption but meant as a warning to Arya and allows her to be redeemed

    Jamie’s story is interesting because him having a full redemption never would’ve made sense and what Tyrion said to him about him and Cersei was true. So I don’t hate his ending (the euron side show was a shit storm though)

    There’s even some potential great irony in what Tyrion says to Jamie about Cersei and then his own decision to stick with Danny. Would’ve required a focus on Tyrion loving Danny and him being more aware of the futility in his efforts to keep her good. But potential was there.

    Like I said a few posts up, you can see how so much of this could’ve worked if executed better.

    Maybe this was the deal they made between hbo and GRRM. Botch the ending enough so folks will feel the need to read the better version

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    The actors really sold Arya and the hound’s parting of ways pretty well, I didn’t like a lot about this episode (other than the amazing technical aspects), but that part of it at least felt earned simply on the performances

    There were so many ways to have Dany go “mad queen” without literally destroying her city after she wins. Killing civilians to kill the stubborn Lannister’s who refuse to surrender? Burning the red keep, after Cersei stacks it with a thousand civilians to call her bluff?

    I was expecting her to shoot the hostages to get at Cersei, not shoot the hostages, then go outside and start shooting more people, and eh who cares if we even got Cersei.... I’d like to point out that even the mad king’s *final desperate insane suicide plan* was less of a massacre than what this was

    But I mean, she’s a woman, you know how emotional men make them right? Amirite fellas?

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  • DacDac Registered User regular
    Dany going full psychopath was the most obvious and trite route to take. It's one you could have reasonably guessed the first time someone mentioned Targ madness. And by virtue of its obviousness, its one that you'd expect to be subverted or have some kind of twist.

    When the twist turns out to be 'Ah ha! You thought it would be smarter than this, but I was actually the cliche all along!', yeah, that's going to annoy people. And when you don't handle that turn well, when the culmination of all that character development and time we've spent with them is 'nah they were never any different, PSYCHE', that's even worse.

    I was struck tonight by how little I cared about what was happening. There was pretty much no payoff for any character arcs - aside from Dany's fulfillment of becoming a stand-in for her mad father. She's basically just a prop now.

    Cleganebowl had no emotional impact for me. In the end, it just showed to highlight how little the Hound has grown. There's nothing at stake here from a narrative or character perspective. It's just Sandor wanting payback. Okay?

    I couldn't even get all that enthused about Euron dying, or the fight, because at that point I didn't have it in me to root for either side.

    Bleh.

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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    If they really wanted her to go mad, I'd have had the battle happen, and the surrender happen and her be kinda smirking down at Jon, and Cersei be pulling her hair out in madness up in the keep and then Dany realizes that Drogon is looking at those civilians mighty hungrily. Like, sure, he likes Dany a lot and he'll listen to her most of the time, but he's a hungry wild animal who just got told it was OK to to kill people. So there she is, at the moment of her triumph, she was right and all these other idiots were wrong and shes going to win and the people are cheering and then Drogon reaches down in horrific motion and just grabs someone from below him and devours them. In front of everyone. Jon is horrified, everyone is horrified and the Drogon just leaps up into the air and starts destroying everything. And Dany realizes she can't stop him. That maybe she doesn't want to stop him, and just revels in the destruction.

    Have Drogon land on the wall closer to the Red Keep. The bells begin to toll and Dany looks out over the city with a slight smile. Then she looks at the Red Keep and sees Cersei standing with Qyburn and the Mountain on a parapet watching everything. Her smile slowly melts into a mask of rage and she mutters in a low growl something along the lines of "No, she burns". Drogon takes off and heads straight for the keep. She sees people fleeing out of the Red Keep through the gate and she again mutters the same thing the proceeds lights up the entire outer wall of the Red Keep including the gate that people are trying to flee through. She turns back and sees Cersei fleeing inside the keep and proceeds to burn the Red Keep to the ground except lighting up the outer wall starts an inferno that begins to rapidly spread throughout the city igniting wildfire caches.

    There, she turns, hundreds of thousands still die horribly and it's at least remotely fucking believable.

    This, basically. Don't even need the wildfire thing, though it's useful for the scale. Just, she knows there are people besides Cersei and her council in the Red Keep. The kingdom doesn't run without the smallfolk. She doesn't know that, e.g., Sandor went there trying to kill his brother. She doesn't know that, say, Jaime's been imprisoned in there by the Lannister men, who suspect him of plotting to murder the Cersei after he went over to the North and the Dragon Queen, and that Tyrion went in through one of Varys's tunnels to save his brother. She doesn't know that, say, Arya has already put Cersei out of Daenerys's misery, possibly while disguised as Jaime (Valonqar prophecy!). That's just to make the audience hate her more, for killing some of their faves.

    She does know there are hundreds of servants in there. Perhaps thousands. People with families who just had a harmless job to do and came in every day.

    And Drogon melts the Red Keep to slag with everyone in it. And she feels nothing but satisfaction.

    override367Elvenshae
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    Dac wrote: »
    Dany going full psychopath was the most obvious and trite route to take. It's one you could have reasonably guessed the first time someone mentioned Targ madness. And by virtue of its obviousness, its one that you'd expect to be subverted or have some kind of twist.

    When the twist turns out to be 'Ah ha! You thought it would be smarter than this, but I was actually the cliche all along!', yeah, that's going to annoy people. And when you don't handle that turn well, when the culmination of all that character development and time we've spent with them is 'nah they were never any different, PSYCHE', that's even worse.

    I was struck tonight by how little I cared about what was happening. There was pretty much no payoff for any character arcs - aside from Dany's fulfillment of becoming a stand-in for her mad father. She's basically just a prop now.

    Cleganebowl had no emotional impact for me. In the end, it just showed to highlight how little the Hound has grown. There's nothing at stake here from a narrative or character perspective. It's just Sandor wanting payback. Okay?

    I couldn't even get all that enthused about Euron dying, or the fight, because at that point I didn't have it in me to root for either side.

    Bleh.

    The writing this season reminds me of plots in D&D where I see we have one hour of session time left and the party needs to get through two towns and a boss fight so I just start jettisoning plot elements and having characters go “AHAH I WAS THE BADDY”

    The bones here are good, the actual burninating of the city was horrifying and beautiful (over long as fuck for some reason), and if this were the culmination of an escalation of madness out of Dany this would be the final straw in “is she redeemable or not?”

    Dany’s very first atrocity is the worst atrocity anyone’s ever committed, previously her execution of enemies via dragon fire was only barely worse than standard-noble-activity of executing via sword, she’s been unreasonable from time to time, she’s been angry (rightfully so!), but she went... well as mentioned straight from stopping the Jedi from executing palpating to a massacre of a bunch of children with a sword

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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    593x8dqfvuiz.jpg

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    They're not Dragons, they a Wyverns.

    I've been meaning to get this off my chest for a while.

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    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    They're not Dragons, they a Wyverns.

    I've been meaning to get this off my chest for a while.

    I too dislike Wyvernization of Dragons

    MarathonElvenshae
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    They're not Dragons, they a Wyverns.

    I've been meaning to get this off my chest for a while.

    Naw, the defining characteristic of a Wyvern is the tail not the forearms being wings.

    I mean sure these aren't the perfect realization of European/DnD dragons but they're flying lizards with a "Fuck You" fire breath weapon and that's pretty much a dragon.

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  • BogartBogart I Will Cure You Registered User, Moderator mod
    The last thread was getting a little heated and rude towards the end there. Anyone yelling at people for having differing opinions over a TV show will be kicked because seriously take a look at yourselves.

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    They're not Dragons, they a Wyverns.

    I've been meaning to get this off my chest for a while.

    Naw, the defining characteristic of a Wyvern is the tail not the forearms being wings.

    I mean sure these aren't the perfect realization of European/DnD dragons but they're flying lizards with a "Fuck You" fire breath weapon and that's pretty much a dragon.

    Unfortunately that is too broad a definition as there are far too many flying things that breath fire in mythology. That's like the go to for scary mythology back then

    DanHibiki on
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Dac wrote: »
    Dany going full psychopath was the most obvious and trite route to take. It's one you could have reasonably guessed the first time someone mentioned Targ madness. And by virtue of its obviousness, its one that you'd expect to be subverted or have some kind of twist.

    When the twist turns out to be 'Ah ha! You thought it would be smarter than this, but I was actually the cliche all along!', yeah, that's going to annoy people. And when you don't handle that turn well, when the culmination of all that character development and time we've spent with them is 'nah they were never any different, PSYCHE', that's even worse.

    I was struck tonight by how little I cared about what was happening. There was pretty much no payoff for any character arcs - aside from Dany's fulfillment of becoming a stand-in for her mad father. She's basically just a prop now.

    Cleganebowl had no emotional impact for me. In the end, it just showed to highlight how little the Hound has grown. There's nothing at stake here from a narrative or character perspective. It's just Sandor wanting payback. Okay?

    I couldn't even get all that enthused about Euron dying, or the fight, because at that point I didn't have it in me to root for either side.

    Bleh.

    Yeah, that's a great summary for me. Trite and cliche. And very very forced.

    Varys? Stupid. Tyrion? Stupid. Jaime? Whatever. Cersei? Unsatisfying. Dany? So badly written, even if this was the conclusion. Cleganebowl? Meh.

    Showdown at the gates? Again with the fucking infantry lining up OUTSIDE the walls? The northern army didn't have seige weapons. Yes, Drogon wrecked shit, but unless he did, the northern army weren't doing shit. And if he did wreck shit and the scorpions did nothing, then nothing mattered anyway. Zero fucking sense.

    I'm done. I've completely checked out emotionally. I'll watch the finale sometime next week, mainly out of completion of the 200+ hours of watching this show (As aired, a full rewatch a month ago, and I think the first 4 seasons on DVD), and another 200+ hours reading or discussing the show. And it goes out not with a bang, but with a wet fart.

    Weiss and Benioff go on the list. Bay, Boll, Snyder. Got my own little Arya list of content producers that while I don't want dead, can just completely fuck off as far as I'm concerned.

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  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    They're not Dragons, they a Wyverns.

    I've been meaning to get this off my chest for a while.

    Naw, the defining characteristic of a Wyvern is the tail not the forearms being wings.

    I mean sure these aren't the perfect realization of European/DnD dragons but they're flying lizards with a "Fuck You" fire breath weapon and that's pretty much a dragon.

    I don't see how the shape of the tail could be the defining characteristic over leg-count. Tail shape can vary, but they're always portrayed as bipedal with winged forearms.

    I actually can't remember how Dany's dragons are described in the books.

    Anyway, I guess "Mother of Wyverns" wouldn't sound as cool.

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  • AtomikaAtomika technology is your dickfist Registered User regular
    I feel my long-standing low opinion of Dany was validated tonight

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    I feel my long-standing low opinion of Dany was validated tonight

    You know, the thing is, lots of us were ambivalent to or disliked Dany. It's entirely possible to have unlikable protagonists. The problem is that the show writers have completely destroyed her character in the span of two episodes. Even if you don't like her, the things she has done in this episode in particular make absolutely no sense, and her decent into madness feels wholly unearned and incredibly rushed.

    If anything, you want Dany to become an unlikable, if sympathetic, character at the end of her arc. But what they've done is the writing equivalent of having her show up and just randomly start kicking puppies. I mean, it gets the job done, but how does that help to tell your story other than to remind people that kicking puppies is shitty behavior?

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  • BethrynBethryn Registered User regular
    Arya's Magic Horse moment really was the icing on the cake.

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    edited May 13
    You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.

    There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Atomika wrote: »
    I feel my long-standing low opinion of Dany was validated tonight

    Yup. And while to some this was an expected result, with seeds subtly placed all the way through, turning her from a fan favorite into a villain, almost out of nowhere, isn't going to go over well.

    I saw someone mention it's no different than Joffrey taking Ned's head, or Frey and Bolton at the Red Wedding. The difference is, the show didn't spend 70 hours making Joffrey, Walder or Roose a person to cheer for, at all. Everyone spent their entire screen time either ambivalent (Roose prior to), or actively wishing they were dead.

    There are hundreds of children in the real world named after her. Because people were emotionally invested in her, because they were made to care about her. They're not going to care that it makes sense from the hints dropped here and there. This is Superman snapping innocent bystander necks. Seeded justification doesn't matter.

    I've never been a big Dany fan myself (hate the idea of "owed birthright", I'm fine with destiny, but "I deserve this" just pisses me off). But I know several people that are going to be furious at this, as unless you REALLY paid attention, and viewed Dany with a lens of suspicion from the start, it seems like it turned on a dime.

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  • BogartBogart I Will Cure You Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited May 13
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.

    There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.

    That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.

    I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.

    Bogart on
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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Bethryn wrote: »
    Arya's Magic Horse moment really was the icing on the cake.

    I was fuckin dying in that scene man.

    Just a total wtf!?

    Why is this horse important!?

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.

    There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.

    That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.

    I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.

    Exactly! That would have been so much better! Subvert the obvious. Everyone already thinks she's going to go full mad queen. So instead, have her actually listen to her advisors, only go after the objective (Cersei), save the day, then whoops an accident causes everyone to think she DID go mad queen anyway. Much more thematically interesting. But oh right, themes are for 8th graders I forgot

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    You know what I think would've been a better way to handle this? Have Dany immediately go after the Red Keep, like she should have. The explosion of the towers sets off a chain reaction of the wildfire caches around the city, thereby accidentally creating the complete destruction of the city the episode portrays. Everyone thinks it was Dany doing it on purpose and uses it as an excuse to back Jon.

    There, now you've thematically tied in the wildfire caches that had been hinted at for the past 4 seasons, the fact that Westeros doesn't trust an outsider, and that everyone believes in the mad Targaryen myth.

    That puts Dany's character in a totally different place, though. In the show she's gone ultra hatstand, but in your scenario she hasn't and it's all a misunderstanding.

    I'm not saying I think a or b is better or that the show is doing a good job (I haven't seen the episode), but that isn't so much a different way of handling "it" as changing what "it" actually is.

    And the misunderstanding only works if you've then got a good 5+ episodes to work through the back and forth, and have her either come out on top, or descend into paranoia.

    Weiss and Benioff have 70 minutes.

    Even the most awesome writing would feel incredibly rushed for that to have a satisfying ending.

    Instead, it's gonna be Jon being forced into it. Or Dany wins, and rules over ashes. Anyone who cared about Dany being completely unsatisfied.

    HiT BiT
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