It's still more Dead Cells than Castlevania though, right? Like it's still a roguelike?
edit: Just looked at a review thread for it. Definitely a roguelike. Gross.
Gross that they didn't remake the genre of their entire game for a DLC pack? Uh, no.
I don't consider roguelike a genre. It's a mechanic laid over existing genres. Dead Cells is a side-scrolling action game with roguelike mechanics. If anything, removing those mechanics would make it an even better tribute to Castlevania, which has none of that.
+2
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
It's still more Dead Cells than Castlevania though, right? Like it's still a roguelike?
edit: Just looked at a review thread for it. Definitely a roguelike. Gross.
Gross that they didn't remake the genre of their entire game for a DLC pack? Uh, no.
I don't consider roguelike a genre. It's a mechanic laid over existing genres. Dead Cells is a side-scrolling action game with roguelike mechanics. If anything, removing those mechanics would make it an even better tribute to Castlevania, which has none of that.
But then it isn't Dead Cells. And hey, I get it, I don't like rogue-like games as a general rule, but that's what Dead Cells is, and I don't see any reason for them to alter their entire game for a DLC pack, TBH.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
I mean the whole point of roguelike mechanics is to stretch a short game out over dozens of runs. People are usually okay with DLC being on the short side, so there's no need to pad it out.
I mean the whole point of roguelike mechanics is to stretch a short game out over dozens of runs. People are usually okay with DLC being on the short side, so there's no need to pad it out.
People would not be okay with a game designed to be played hundreds of times suddenly being good for one unique playthrough, I don't think so. The Castlevania stuff is a path you can take (with the different DLCs, there are a bunch of mutually exclusive ending routes now) with lots of unique content that has random modifiers, so the DLC also gets that added replay value.
You're looking at Roguelikes in the most cynical way possible (they have one 2 hour playthrough that they want to make you play for 40 hours), but that's not why they're made or why people like them. It's more like, with these simple building blocks, can we create a varied experience that it's fun to come back to again and again. If that's not your jam, it doesn't have to be, but no one is buying this scam framing.
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I can't say roguelikes are my favorite either, though I did get into Binding of Isaac for a bit, while Dead Cells isn't appealing to me.
There needs to be the right kind of presenting for me to enjoy this steady unlocking of bits. Darkest Dungeon is one series that I do like, with both games having some significant differences.
I always viewed roguelikes as the old arcade games in a new form. The idea that the game itself has some challenge to beat, even if it isn't long. The extra mechanics are added in order to spice that up via randomness or different playstyles.
It just reminds me of trying to beat the old Ninja Turtles games or Ninja Gaiden.
Playing the game is fun (or it should be). It's not like you need to find all the content and delete it so that it will go away. "Padding" would be if the game was like "you have to play level 1 50 times before we will unlock level 2." Vs "There is a bunch of random things that will change each time you play, to make the game (which is baseline fun to play) more varied and therefore keep up your interest level."
+3
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
I know zilch about Dead Cells, but the Castlevania stuff looks on point.
Also, just finished Curse of Darkness. Boy is Isaac wildly different in the show, and for the better, but I feel like they largely nailed Hector.
Playing the game is fun (or it should be). It's not like you need to find all the content and delete it so that it will go away. "Padding" would be if the game was like "you have to play level 1 50 times before we will unlock level 2." Vs "There is a bunch of random things that will change each time you play, to make the game (which is baseline fun to play) more varied and therefore keep up your interest level."
There's really only two ways they randomize things. 1) Procedural level design. Frankly, I can't tell the difference between procedural level design and bad level design. And after a while, it still starts to feel all samey even though I know intellectually it's different because that platform is over there and that enemy was moved over here. 2) A bunch of handcrafted sections fed to you in a random order. The level design feels better, but it only takes a few runs before you start seeing a lot of repeats.
I think they could easily satisfy people that like roguelikes and people that just want tightly designed action games. Make a short, straight-forward campaign, then have a randomizer mode to play for 50+ hours and tie a bonus boss fight and a true ending to it. Boom! Hannah Montana!
0
cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Playing the game is fun (or it should be). It's not like you need to find all the content and delete it so that it will go away. "Padding" would be if the game was like "you have to play level 1 50 times before we will unlock level 2." Vs "There is a bunch of random things that will change each time you play, to make the game (which is baseline fun to play) more varied and therefore keep up your interest level."
There's really only two ways they randomize things. 1) Procedural level design. Frankly, I can't tell the difference between procedural level design and bad level design. And after a while, it still starts to feel all samey even though I know intellectually it's different because that platform is over there and that enemy was moved over here. 2) A bunch of handcrafted sections fed to you in a random order. The level design feels better, but it only takes a few runs before you start seeing a lot of repeats.
I think they could easily satisfy people that like roguelikes and people that just want tightly designed action games. Make a short, straight-forward campaign, then have a randomizer mode to play for 50+ hours and tie a bonus boss fight and a true ending to it. Boom! Hannah Montana!
So... Harmony of Despair? :P
0
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
So . . . the reason rogue-likes take certain portions of Rogue but not all of it. It's not just a randomizer element to it, that's not the appeal. It's earning some perpetual things (in Hades that would be the stats you buy with Purple Stuff, as one example) alongside things that alter from one "run" to another, and the alteration is the big thing here. It's not to pad out the game, because the game or story content isn't the actual point. The point of most Rogue-likes is to give you a random selection of abilities or powers or weapons, and a random style of rooms, so you can't build the perfect build for the entire game and you can't memorize the layout of the map. Instead, it's styled to require you to think on the fly and accept what is given to you and try and use that to get to the next checkpoint or the correct amount of currency to get that next upgrade or whatever.
It's actually very board game of it; Betrayal at House on the Hill, even if you always pick the priest, will not play the same way twice. But where that's a single run through a game, Rogue-likes are using that cycle and iterating on it so that loop of tactical thought is bumped up to 11. It's also sort of like arcade games pumped to 11. Because the primary question of Rogue-likes is "with a random layout of abilities and/or areas, can you get to the end?"
And yes, you might be playing a Rogue-like like Hades to get through the story, but the mechanics aren't about that at all. It's about asking the player to try "level 1" each time with a different layout and abilities provided across said stage. It's not concerned with Zag's attempt to go find mom.
So if you're looking at Rogue-likes and saying that it's padding a game's story and play you're missing the point, because the story is garnish and the altering mechanics each run are the entire point.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
Sometimes all you carry over from run to run in a roguelike is knowledge of how the game works. Persistent attributes is a basically the divide on which "roguelike vs roguelite" sits.
SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
Yep. If you play the original Rogue, nothing carries over. Nothing gets unlocked from a playthrough. I can enjoy it if I'm in the right mood, but usually I want some form of persistence.
So if you're looking at Rogue-likes and saying that it's padding a game's story and play you're missing the point, because the story is garnish and the altering mechanics each run are the entire point.
Like, I get the point of roguelikes. The idea behind it. But I've tried a bunch of these and felt no meaningful difference from run to run. My 1st, 10th, and 20th run of Hades all felt basically the same, just each time I got a little farther. And that holds true for the other half dozen or so that I tried.
0
KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
So if you're looking at Rogue-likes and saying that it's padding a game's story and play you're missing the point, because the story is garnish and the altering mechanics each run are the entire point.
Like, I get the point of roguelikes. The idea behind it. But I've tried a bunch of these and felt no meaningful difference from run to run. My 1st, 10th, and 20th run of Hades all felt basically the same, just each time I got a little farther. And that holds true for the other half dozen or so that I tried.
It's meant to engage you by altering if your bow or sword or whatever got a certain upgrade or you got a good match-up of god powers that synchronize well together, and you wanting to pay attention to how all the little changes can alter how you should approach the stages each time. If it all felt the same, that means you weren't engaging with the mechanics.
And that's fine! I have no real interest in doing that my own self; I like the reliability of games that have a reliable build or set of builds and consistent stages I can remember, etc. The engagement of the rogue-like (or lite, as someone noted just a post or three ago) relies on the player's interest in knowing that, for example, a multi-shot with ice damage and homing on a powerful shot can both deal damage even as you retreat while also stopping enemies and next time you probably won't have that build so you might as well make the best of it while you can. That doesn't specifically jazz me, even if I get what it's trying for, and thus I have a hard time engaging with the systems and so rogue-inspired games just don't really hold much appeal for me.
I also feel much more of a sense of accomplishment from progress, and rogue-ishes thrive on taking away progress regularly, handing you ways to handle problems just to take them away again. Sometimes it's all, sometimes it's only some, but it feels bad to me.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
It's meant to engage you by altering if your bow or sword or whatever got a certain upgrade or you got a good match-up of god powers that synchronize well together, and you wanting to pay attention to how all the little changes can alter how you should approach the stages each time. If it all felt the same, that means you weren't engaging with the mechanics.
The whole point is that "each run is unique", but if the differences are so subtle that I'll miss them if I'm not properly "engaging with the mechanics" then I say that's on them for not providing enough variety from run to run.
Admittedly it feels like you have to reach Nethack "everything and the kitchen sink" to really get that level of variety. And then it mostly comes down to new and novel ways to die in one hit.
+2
Andy JoeWe claim the land for the highlord!The AdirondacksRegistered Userregular
So Grim Guardians got delisted on a few digital platforms. Turns out to be a side effect of Inti Creates having to change the name because of a trademark conflict:
At least it's connected in name to Gal Gun now?.... I'm not sure whether that's an improvement or not.
I've found some of the little interactions with rescuees after the level bosses amusing though. Like the girl who is totally not a demon. I guess that's all connected to gal gun "lore" or something?
It's meant to engage you by altering if your bow or sword or whatever got a certain upgrade or you got a good match-up of god powers that synchronize well together, and you wanting to pay attention to how all the little changes can alter how you should approach the stages each time. If it all felt the same, that means you weren't engaging with the mechanics.
The whole point is that "each run is unique", but if the differences are so subtle that I'll miss them if I'm not properly "engaging with the mechanics" then I say that's on them for not providing enough variety from run to run.
It's fine to not like something, but spending this much time moaning about a thing that lots of people like, and trying to paint it as objectively bad because you don't, is wierd.
I think MMOs are rubbish, but that just means I don't play them. I'm not gonna crawl up on the pulpit and start a sermon.
Hades also has that God Mode toggle where you get stronger on each run/every time you die, which makes the game less hard but also allows you to feel like things are changing on each run.
It's meant to engage you by altering if your bow or sword or whatever got a certain upgrade or you got a good match-up of god powers that synchronize well together, and you wanting to pay attention to how all the little changes can alter how you should approach the stages each time. If it all felt the same, that means you weren't engaging with the mechanics.
The whole point is that "each run is unique", but if the differences are so subtle that I'll miss them if I'm not properly "engaging with the mechanics" then I say that's on them for not providing enough variety from run to run.
It's fine to not like something, but spending this much time moaning about a thing that lots of people like, and trying to paint it as objectively bad because you don't, is wierd.
I think MMOs are rubbish, but that just means I don't play them. I'm not gonna crawl up on the pulpit and start a sermon.
And you came along and saw a conversation that was clearly over, as nobody has been engaging in it for a few days, and decide you need to bring it back up because you can't resist talking shit?
Nobody was mad about anything in the slightest. I expressed my annoyance that certain mechanics ruin games I would otherwise enjoy. Some other people told me my opinion was wrong. I told them I disagreed. Then we all got bored and dropped it.
Then you came along and said "Hey, I should be a complete dipshit over something everybody was already over."
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited March 11
So having actually played the Dead Cells Castlevania DLC, which made me rebuy the entire game on PS5 and I am glad I did (as Dead Cells at consistent framerate and looking better is much better than Switch) it's been really good. I enjoy it a lot and it's hilarious seeing the different dialog you get with Dracula when you play dress up as different characters from the series.
On the other hand, it also leaves me feeling empty and hollow a bit because what I really want is a new proper castlevania with fancy new graphics/pretties etc. Like it's great that this exists, but it's not *quite* there.
And if you want to play a fantastic 2d game, which definitely keeps the feel of many Metroidvania style games, with plenty of secrets and a billion different paths now you can take to do a variety of endings, I can't recommend Dead Cells enough. You can also turn on an accessibility mode in the game that respawns you at checkpoints and not lose the entire run if you die as well - at the cost of not being able to obtain boss cells (which you either do or don't give a shit about).
So having actually played the Dead Cells Castlevania DLC, which made me rebuy the entire game on PS5 and I am glad I did (as Dead Cells at consistent framerate and looking better is much better than Switch) it's been really good. I enjoy it a lot and it's hilarious seeing the different dialog you get with Dracula when you play dress up as different characters from the series.
On the other hand, it also leaves me feeling empty and hollow a bit because what I really want is a new proper castlevania with fancy new graphics/pretties etc. Like it's great that this exists, but it's not *quite* there.
And if you want to play a fantastic 2d game, which definitely keeps the feel of many Metroidvania style games, with plenty of secrets and a billion different paths now you can take to do a variety of endings, I can't recommend Dead Cells enough. You can also turn on an accessibility mode in the game that respawns you at checkpoints and not lose the entire run if you die as well - at the cost of not being able to obtain boss cells (which you either do or don't give a shit about).
So having actually played the Dead Cells Castlevania DLC, which made me rebuy the entire game on PS5 and I am glad I did (as Dead Cells at consistent framerate and looking better is much better than Switch) it's been really good. I enjoy it a lot and it's hilarious seeing the different dialog you get with Dracula when you play dress up as different characters from the series.
On the other hand, it also leaves me feeling empty and hollow a bit because what I really want is a new proper castlevania with fancy new graphics/pretties etc. Like it's great that this exists, but it's not *quite* there.
And if you want to play a fantastic 2d game, which definitely keeps the feel of many Metroidvania style games, with plenty of secrets and a billion different paths now you can take to do a variety of endings, I can't recommend Dead Cells enough. You can also turn on an accessibility mode in the game that respawns you at checkpoints and not lose the entire run if you die as well - at the cost of not being able to obtain boss cells (which you either do or don't give a shit about).
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited March 12
So I went ahead and actually played the DLC for myself. You can get an idea from the video how to access the DLC and how it plays. It's worth noting I've still only just really started playing Dead Cells again and so I don't have everything I would like unlocked, like the wall climb and so forth. So a lot of the castle is inaccessible to me as a result. Additionally it looks like you have to switch between Castlevania areas and go back to Dead Cells and then back to Castlevania. I'm unsure if there is a strict playthrough that's only through Castlevania or not as I haven't unlocked all the things (and there are clearly lots of secrets and similar to find in this).
This was simply great in my opinion. Lots of nostalgia, great music and oddly I feel it's slightly easier (if anything) compared to the actual game. There is actually much more to the Castlevania DLC than I show here, because I wasn't able to access the second part as you need to do a few runs to unlock the various ways through it seems. Overall this DLC is awesome and hit all the right nostalgia buttons for me, while still playing like Dead Cells, which is still one of the best 2d Action games there is currently.
The Castlevania Stuff seems *really* good and well worth unlocking as well. Like it's on the level of "too good". Stuff that allows you to just smack enemies through walls or stand to the side and toss massive damage axes on them etc.
SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
I've heard almost nothing but good things about the Castlevania DLC for Dead Cells. I'm not quite ready to go back to the game right now, but I have a lot of fond memories. Never did beat it, although I last played it in September 2018. It sounds like a lot has changed since then.
The only complaint I have about the Dead Cells DLC is the same one I have about the rest of the game which is that it is real punishing for very small mistakes, but the love and care put in definitely makes it a mandatory purchase if you like the game overall.
Not sure if there was a consensus, but it's good. Only problem is, despite the marketing, it seems to very much be a Gal*Gun game, just of a different breed.
I wrote a bit about it here, and I've enjoyed what I've played, but I haven't seen everything, and it sounds like if you're trying to 100% it, then it might get more, uh, "Gal*Gun-y" than I realized.
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0
HiT BiT🍒 Fresh, straight from Pac-man'sRegistered Userregular
Infexnax will get a new update next April 5 which will add a new playable character and a 2 player coop mode: https://youtu.be/8mvabTnp6nc
Posts
I don't consider roguelike a genre. It's a mechanic laid over existing genres. Dead Cells is a side-scrolling action game with roguelike mechanics. If anything, removing those mechanics would make it an even better tribute to Castlevania, which has none of that.
But then it isn't Dead Cells. And hey, I get it, I don't like rogue-like games as a general rule, but that's what Dead Cells is, and I don't see any reason for them to alter their entire game for a DLC pack, TBH.
People would not be okay with a game designed to be played hundreds of times suddenly being good for one unique playthrough, I don't think so. The Castlevania stuff is a path you can take (with the different DLCs, there are a bunch of mutually exclusive ending routes now) with lots of unique content that has random modifiers, so the DLC also gets that added replay value.
You're looking at Roguelikes in the most cynical way possible (they have one 2 hour playthrough that they want to make you play for 40 hours), but that's not why they're made or why people like them. It's more like, with these simple building blocks, can we create a varied experience that it's fun to come back to again and again. If that's not your jam, it doesn't have to be, but no one is buying this scam framing.
There needs to be the right kind of presenting for me to enjoy this steady unlocking of bits. Darkest Dungeon is one series that I do like, with both games having some significant differences.
It just reminds me of trying to beat the old Ninja Turtles games or Ninja Gaiden.
Playing the game is fun (or it should be). It's not like you need to find all the content and delete it so that it will go away. "Padding" would be if the game was like "you have to play level 1 50 times before we will unlock level 2." Vs "There is a bunch of random things that will change each time you play, to make the game (which is baseline fun to play) more varied and therefore keep up your interest level."
Also, just finished Curse of Darkness. Boy is Isaac wildly different in the show, and for the better, but I feel like they largely nailed Hector.
Now Saint Germaine, yeesh, what a quack.
Which familiar did you favor?
There's really only two ways they randomize things. 1) Procedural level design. Frankly, I can't tell the difference between procedural level design and bad level design. And after a while, it still starts to feel all samey even though I know intellectually it's different because that platform is over there and that enemy was moved over here. 2) A bunch of handcrafted sections fed to you in a random order. The level design feels better, but it only takes a few runs before you start seeing a lot of repeats.
I think they could easily satisfy people that like roguelikes and people that just want tightly designed action games. Make a short, straight-forward campaign, then have a randomizer mode to play for 50+ hours and tie a bonus boss fight and a true ending to it. Boom! Hannah Montana!
Fairy for support, Birdie or Mage for offense.
So... Harmony of Despair? :P
It's actually very board game of it; Betrayal at House on the Hill, even if you always pick the priest, will not play the same way twice. But where that's a single run through a game, Rogue-likes are using that cycle and iterating on it so that loop of tactical thought is bumped up to 11. It's also sort of like arcade games pumped to 11. Because the primary question of Rogue-likes is "with a random layout of abilities and/or areas, can you get to the end?"
And yes, you might be playing a Rogue-like like Hades to get through the story, but the mechanics aren't about that at all. It's about asking the player to try "level 1" each time with a different layout and abilities provided across said stage. It's not concerned with Zag's attempt to go find mom.
So if you're looking at Rogue-likes and saying that it's padding a game's story and play you're missing the point, because the story is garnish and the altering mechanics each run are the entire point.
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Like, I get the point of roguelikes. The idea behind it. But I've tried a bunch of these and felt no meaningful difference from run to run. My 1st, 10th, and 20th run of Hades all felt basically the same, just each time I got a little farther. And that holds true for the other half dozen or so that I tried.
It's meant to engage you by altering if your bow or sword or whatever got a certain upgrade or you got a good match-up of god powers that synchronize well together, and you wanting to pay attention to how all the little changes can alter how you should approach the stages each time. If it all felt the same, that means you weren't engaging with the mechanics.
And that's fine! I have no real interest in doing that my own self; I like the reliability of games that have a reliable build or set of builds and consistent stages I can remember, etc. The engagement of the rogue-like (or lite, as someone noted just a post or three ago) relies on the player's interest in knowing that, for example, a multi-shot with ice damage and homing on a powerful shot can both deal damage even as you retreat while also stopping enemies and next time you probably won't have that build so you might as well make the best of it while you can. That doesn't specifically jazz me, even if I get what it's trying for, and thus I have a hard time engaging with the systems and so rogue-inspired games just don't really hold much appeal for me.
I also feel much more of a sense of accomplishment from progress, and rogue-ishes thrive on taking away progress regularly, handing you ways to handle problems just to take them away again. Sometimes it's all, sometimes it's only some, but it feels bad to me.
The whole point is that "each run is unique", but if the differences are so subtle that I'll miss them if I'm not properly "engaging with the mechanics" then I say that's on them for not providing enough variety from run to run.
I've found some of the little interactions with rescuees after the level bosses amusing though. Like the girl who is totally not a demon. I guess that's all connected to gal gun "lore" or something?
It's fine to not like something, but spending this much time moaning about a thing that lots of people like, and trying to paint it as objectively bad because you don't, is wierd.
I think MMOs are rubbish, but that just means I don't play them. I'm not gonna crawl up on the pulpit and start a sermon.
3DS Friend Code: 2165-6448-8348 www.Twitch.TV/cooljammer00
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And you came along and saw a conversation that was clearly over, as nobody has been engaging in it for a few days, and decide you need to bring it back up because you can't resist talking shit?
I just can't resist talking shit. It's a real problem.
Not a problem on the level of getting real mad about video games. But, like, just below that.
Then you came along and said "Hey, I should be a complete dipshit over something everybody was already over."
On the other hand, it also leaves me feeling empty and hollow a bit because what I really want is a new proper castlevania with fancy new graphics/pretties etc. Like it's great that this exists, but it's not *quite* there.
And if you want to play a fantastic 2d game, which definitely keeps the feel of many Metroidvania style games, with plenty of secrets and a billion different paths now you can take to do a variety of endings, I can't recommend Dead Cells enough. You can also turn on an accessibility mode in the game that respawns you at checkpoints and not lose the entire run if you die as well - at the cost of not being able to obtain boss cells (which you either do or don't give a shit about).
Let's get down to brass tacks: does it have
This is the biggest fail of Grim/Gal Guardians... it actually takes a few seconds to swap characters. (everything else freezes, but still...)
No unfortunately.
You can play dress up as different characters and get different dialog from Dracula.
This was simply great in my opinion. Lots of nostalgia, great music and oddly I feel it's slightly easier (if anything) compared to the actual game. There is actually much more to the Castlevania DLC than I show here, because I wasn't able to access the second part as you need to do a few runs to unlock the various ways through it seems. Overall this DLC is awesome and hit all the right nostalgia buttons for me, while still playing like Dead Cells, which is still one of the best 2d Action games there is currently.
The Castlevania Stuff seems *really* good and well worth unlocking as well. Like it's on the level of "too good". Stuff that allows you to just smack enemies through walls or stand to the side and toss massive damage axes on them etc.
I wrote a bit about it here, and I've enjoyed what I've played, but I haven't seen everything, and it sounds like if you're trying to 100% it, then it might get more, uh, "Gal*Gun-y" than I realized.
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
New character has a mechanic that is more in universe, but feels like an inferior version of something another character already has.
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