Was Ares (Ruby Rose) supposed to have been out of ammo in that fight?
Because she clearly has a gun in her hand when the elevator opens, but instead opts to fight Wick with a knife.
Which was just... really pretty dumb. Even if she wasn't fighting John fucking Wick, her opponent had like 6 inches and 100 pounds on her.
I mean, he literally picks her up and throws her into a wall at one point.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I maintain that, at least in two, “I’ll be seeing you” is what assassins say to each other because they all know they’ll meet up again in Hell eventually
Was Ares (Ruby Rose) supposed to have been out of ammo in that fight?
Because she clearly has a gun in her hand when the elevator opens, but instead opts to fight Wick with a knife.
Which was just... really pretty dumb. Even if she wasn't fighting John fucking Wick, her opponent had like 6 inches and 100 pounds on her.
I mean, he literally picks her up and throws her into a wall at one point.
I've just assumed that all the assassins have a private bet going to see who can be the first to beat Wick without resorting to guns. Because pretty much everyone is doing it.
John Wick deciding to cut off his finger and rejoin the fold was such a weird moment—I was like, wait a minute, this is who JW is? I was already well into the camp of “he should murder the whole High Table and remake the (under)world” but apparently I’m just ahead of Wick by at least a movie.
Nah, that made sense to me.
The main theme of 3 for John is him squirming to get out under the death sentence of killing someone on Continental grounds and breaking, "The Rules". It's all about him, his selfish revenge, and trying to duck the consequences. The assassin verse in John Wick is all about, "the rules are what separate men from beasts." John is doing what both villains of the prior films were trying to do, either breaking the rules or trying to screw with the margins of them.
And in the end, he realizes bowing his head to go back to a peaceful life, even if being left alone is what he wants more than anything in the world, isn't worth it on those terms.
Based on what John said in 2 with the first knife stick, I don't think Ruby Rose is coming back.
He gives Common the option to survive, because he respects him as a man of honor and a worthy opponent.
He shows Ruby Rose none of the same courtesy, because she has none of that same honor and therefore is not worthy of his respect.
I don't remember Rose's character doing anything particularly dishonorable. She was a bodyguard who just happened to be working for a complete bastard that Wick wanted dead. Common just had the good luck to be the bodyguard for someone that Wick felt bad about killing. Plus Wick seems the sort that can respect someone who is out on a revenge rampage because someone that they cared about was killed.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Rose's character signed on to a betrayal. So she gets to die.
I got the impression John was going to honor his marker with Santino then go back into retirement. Trying to tie up John as a loose end sealed Santino's and Rose's fate.
Black lives matter.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Rose's character signed on to a betrayal. So she gets to die.
I got the impression John was going to honor his marker with Santino then go back into retirement. Trying to tie up John as a loose end sealed Santino's and Rose's fate.
That was one thing that sat wrong for me with the second film. Santino is pulling a Klingon promotion on his sister, which is pretty dubious but that's why he's pulling in the marker. Then he doubles down by trying to take out Wick with a public bounty, and doesn't manage to get that done. It makes for a fun plot, but it runs into the GoT issue where if everyone is (or is allowed to be with no retribution) a backstabbing murderer who can't ever be trusted then the entire thing just kind of falls apart since everyone would spend all their time locked in a literal bank vault for fear of assassination. Something similar would happen to the assassins since it's one thing to take a job on the basis of how hard it will be to kill the person, it's something totally different to decide if getting paid two million will be worth it if you end up with a five million dollar price on your head.
The situation with Santino was probably an outlier, but even then it really didn't fit well with how the whole gold coin using side of the world works.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
You probably don't get a promotion to the table for killing the previous person, but in santinos case he had some kind of rule of inheritance working for him
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
You probably don't get a promotion to the table for killing the previous person, but in santinos case he had some kind of rule of inheritance working for him
Plus he could probably get the sympathy vote since his sister had just been killed.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
You probably don't get a promotion to the table for killing the previous person, but in santinos case he had some kind of rule of inheritance working for him
Plus he could probably get the sympathy vote since his sister had just been killed.
Isn't that the narrative context?
He hires Wick to kill his sister. The only person who knows this are people he owns. Wick is the known killer. So if the High Table comes down on Wick for killong a member, and interrogate Wick, Santino is in the shit for it being public knowledge*, so taking out Wick is covering his bases.
* Yeah, I absolutely believe most of the Table would suspect, if not outright know that Santino had his sister kill. But I can also believe plausible deniability is a thing. That as long as there isn't a smoking John Wick, then good on you for playing the system.
You probably don't get a promotion to the table for killing the previous person, but in santinos case he had some kind of rule of inheritance working for him
Plus he could probably get the sympathy vote since his sister had just been killed.
Isn't that the narrative context?
He hires Wick to kill his sister. The only person who knows this are people he owns. Wick is the known killer. So if the High Table comes down on Wick for killong a member, and interrogate Wick, Santino is in the shit for it being public knowledge*, so taking out Wick is covering his bases.
* Yeah, I absolutely believe most of the Table would suspect, if not outright know that Santino had his sister kill. But I can also believe plausible deniability is a thing. That as long as there isn't a smoking John Wick, then good on you for playing the system.
Winston knew the circumstances of the kill so I would say that the table would also knew, considering they knew just about everything in the third movie.
Its all about plausible deniability. John Wick master murder did the job, most likely for Santino, but Santino can go "oh no I put a bounty on that vicious John Wick who for whatever reason killed my beloved sister..."
And yeah if no one is honoring things than the whole thing falls apart, which is kind of what the John Wick movies are about to begin with. Viggo's kid didn't honor John's retirement, John didn't honor the no killing people in the continental and then he didn't kill Winston who also then attempted to kill Wick.
A whole lot of people are acting like there aren't rules while trying to enforce on everyone else.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
You probably don't get a promotion to the table for killing the previous person, but in santinos case he had some kind of rule of inheritance working for him
Plus he could probably get the sympathy vote since his sister had just been killed.
Isn't that the narrative context?
He hires Wick to kill his sister. The only person who knows this are people he owns. Wick is the known killer. So if the High Table comes down on Wick for killong a member, and interrogate Wick, Santino is in the shit for it being public knowledge*, so taking out Wick is covering his bases.
* Yeah, I absolutely believe most of the Table would suspect, if not outright know that Santino had his sister kill. But I can also believe plausible deniability is a thing. That as long as there isn't a smoking John Wick, then good on you for playing the system.
I’m not actually sure they would care.
It seems like the Table cares more about respecting markers and the rules of the Continental.
Otherwise, why couldn’t John just seek out the desert dude in Wick 2 to say “hey, this guy is trying to use his marker on me to murder one of y’all” to get them involved?
Maybe the Table doesn’t place them above themselves being targets?
Fuck, I want to stop talking about it because the more I think about it the less it makes any realistic sense and I’d rather happily and blissfully suspend my disbelief.
Perhaps the reason the high table is pissed is not so much that he kills Santino, but that he does it without sanction. The marker forces him to kill the sister, and that probably would have covered Wick, if not Santino. But then he just kills the guy with no bounty or sanction, just straight up revenge.
Well it was also a member of the working class killing management. And that is a no no because clearly assassin management is just as awful as real world management.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Was Ares (Ruby Rose) supposed to have been out of ammo in that fight?
Because she clearly has a gun in her hand when the elevator opens, but instead opts to fight Wick with a knife.
Which was just... really pretty dumb. Even if she wasn't fighting John fucking Wick, her opponent had like 6 inches and 100 pounds on her.
I mean, he literally picks her up and throws her into a wall at one point.
I figured it was like Billy in Predator. She figures she has a slightly higher chance of taking John in CQC, and plans her ambush on being directly behind a mirrored glass door.
I imagined she was trying to avoid the whole "shooting superman" thing.
Its all about plausible deniability. John Wick master murder did the job, most likely for Santino, but Santino can go "oh no I put a bounty on that vicious John Wick who for whatever reason killed my beloved sister..."
And yeah if no one is honoring things than the whole thing falls apart, which is kind of what the John Wick movies are about to begin with. Viggo's kid didn't honor John's retirement, John didn't honor the no killing people in the continental and then he didn't kill Winston who also then attempted to kill Wick.
A whole lot of people are acting like there aren't rules while trying to enforce on everyone else.
I think that the third movie made a good case that plausible deniability doesn’t go very far if an adjudicator comes knocking.
It might go further if you’re High Table though.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Was listening to a podcast and one of the hosts pointed it out, during a short discussion about Justin Beiber (asshole that he is) challenging Tom Cruise to a fight.
Wanna feel fucking old? Tom Cruise is older now*, than Wilfred fucking Brimley was, when he filmed Cocoon.
* So is Keanu Reeves. < relevance
I'm a good decade younger, and just watching them in Mission Impossible / John Wick makes my entire body ache.
Was listening to a podcast and one of the hosts pointed it out, during a short discussion about Justin Beiber (asshole that he is) challenging Tom Cruise to a fight.
Wanna feel fucking old? Tom Cruise is older now*, than Wilfred fucking Brimley was, when he filmed Cocoon.
* So is Keanu Reeves. < relevance
I'm a good decade younger, and just watching them in Mission Impossible / John Wick makes my entire body ache.
Why is life so unfair?
Wealth is a helluva drug.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
We also know a looooot more about health, nutrition, and fitness these days. We're all looking at a significant increase to our lifespan over our parents, and that increase doesn't necessarily just tack on years to the part of lives where we're old and made of glass.
We also know a looooot more about health, nutrition, and fitness these days. We're all looking at a significant increase to our lifespan over our parents, and that increase doesn't necessarily just tack on years to the part of lives where we're old and made of glass.
Turns out the secret to looking that good as you age is... tada, nutrition, exercise and having a fulfilling career.
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
We also know a looooot more about health, nutrition, and fitness these days. We're all looking at a significant increase to our lifespan over our parents, and that increase doesn't necessarily just tack on years to the part of lives where we're old and made of glass.
Turns out the secret to looking that good as you age is... tada, nutrition, exercise and having a fulfilling career.
And in Tom's case several million dollars worth of auditing from members of SeaOrg and letting David Miscavige work you like a muppet.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
We also know a looooot more about health, nutrition, and fitness these days. We're all looking at a significant increase to our lifespan over our parents, and that increase doesn't necessarily just tack on years to the part of lives where we're old and made of glass.
Turns out the secret to looking that good as you age is... tada, nutrition, exercise and having a fulfilling career.
And in Tom's case several million dollars worth of auditing from members of SeaOrg and letting David Miscavige work you like a muppet.
I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have all the new blood and organs you could ever want.
Was listening to a podcast and one of the hosts pointed it out, during a short discussion about Justin Beiber (asshole that he is) challenging Tom Cruise to a fight.
Wanna feel fucking old? Tom Cruise is older now*, than Wilfred fucking Brimley was, when he filmed Cocoon.
* So is Keanu Reeves. < relevance
I'm a good decade younger, and just watching them in Mission Impossible / John Wick makes my entire body ache.
Why is life so unfair?
Or even more scary Ming na wen is older than wilfred brimley was when he was shooting cocoon.
We also know a looooot more about health, nutrition, and fitness these days. We're all looking at a significant increase to our lifespan over our parents, and that increase doesn't necessarily just tack on years to the part of lives where we're old and made of glass.
Also we don't all live in flavor country anymore. Everybody smoked back in the day and that ages people like crazy.
But back on topic, the thing about the "rules" is that there are different rules for different people. The rich and powerful have extra layers of protection that their underlings do not, and that increases with rank. Help John Wick, but you're the manager of a Continental? Get off scot free and keep your job after sacrificing most of your employees in a pointless slaughter. Help John Wick, but you're the head of a major organization? One stab. Help John Wick in the tiniest way but you're the head of those street people that the rich and powerful think are weird and gross? Seven slashes that were probably meant to be fatal. Working your way up in the ranks and following the rules? You'll die for your trouble because the big boys up top with their High Table want to play blood games at each other. But isn't that the case in the world?
Yeah, pretty sure the Table doesn't give a hoot about people killing their own. They didn't take an interest in Wick until he killed Santino, and that wasn't because he'd killed one of them. It's because he walked into consecrated ground and put a bullet in someone.
I also suspect that it's not exactly a common thing. You have to assume these folks are generally well protected. Otherwise, I doubt Santino would have gone to the trouble of bringing Wick in at all. He called his marker on the boogeyman to do an impossible job. I'm not sure someone would generally take a bounty on a target like that?
That last bit is actually something that bugs me a little bit about these films. Perkins was willing to go rogue in the Continental for what, 2 million? Or had it been increased to 4 by that point? Either way, that seems a laughably small amount of money to essentially sign your own death warrant (or plan to live in hiding for the rest of your life). Then in the sequel he's running from a 7 million dollar bounty. And not a single person looks at their phone, sees the target, and says "nah, I'm good". Based on the worldbuilding we've seen, it just seems like all of these assassins live pretty decent lives. I'd think it would take more than 7 (or even 14) million to make me roll the dice against a goddamned assassin legend.
And if this has already been discussed, my apologies, but I'm not sure why the Bowery King was punished in Parabellum (other than to set up a hook for the next film). He provided aid to John to kill Santino - but at the time, John was still in the Table's good graces. Are we just assuming that it was because it was done out of contract? Seems weird to me to hold BK accountable for John choosing to break the Continental's rules.
I think we're supposed to question how the High Table's rules work because it's basically just a bunch of bullshit that they use to stay in power. It doesn't make sense because it doesn't have to have logical consistency for little people.
BK was punished to look tough. Like he's not even part of the ecosystem for the table. He's someone who exists outside their system normally from how he was established in JW2.
Basically the Table dished out punishments to keep up the illusion they are untouchable and anyone associated with John killing Santino or getting away from it (as we saw with angelica hustons character) had to be punished so no one else gets ideas.
Which sets up a fourth movie showdown. You have the Bowery King who got fucked up to enforce rules he's not even really apart of, and John Wick a person who ignores rules when he personally feels they don't apply, and a whole bunch of people who are now their targets.
Funny if you go back to what started all of this, it was Viggo's son attacking John in his home, unknowingly to him setting up the whole corrupt system to come crashing down in bullets, knives, and whatever else John Wick can get a hold on.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
By what we've seen, John doesn't ignore the rules as inconvenient. He's definitely observant of them, he just doesn't want to get dragged in to the assassin stuff again. He expressly asks Santino not to use the marker, probably because John knows exactly what's going to happen if Santino is asking to cash it in. But he does, eventually, comply with the rules of the marker; it's only when Santino betrays him that Wick goes after Santino, and Wick knows he's breaking the rules if he kills Santino in the Continental.
If Wick didn't think the rules applied to him, he wouldn't have gone to the top brass of the organization to ask for forgiveness, he just would've killed everybody in charge. If anything, Wick is the one trying to stick to the rules but keeps getting screwed because of them. He wanted out, the organization basically wouldn't let him stay out, and his "forgiveness" is to be damned to a lifetime of being what he put behind him in order to be with his wife.
The High Table could have given John an out at any of several points, they only got involved, and only to come down on John and his people, once one of the "service" folks decided to have a copper-jacketed discussion with somebody in head management.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I remember that there’s some side comment from the head Russian when he hears that Perkins is willing to do business at the Continental for double the money. I forget exactly what he said, but the impression was a combo of dumbass and it’s her funeral.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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Because she clearly has a gun in her hand when the elevator opens, but instead opts to fight Wick with a knife.
Which was just... really pretty dumb. Even if she wasn't fighting John fucking Wick, her opponent had like 6 inches and 100 pounds on her.
I mean, he literally picks her up and throws her into a wall at one point.
I've just assumed that all the assassins have a private bet going to see who can be the first to beat Wick without resorting to guns. Because pretty much everyone is doing it.
Nah, that made sense to me.
The main theme of 3 for John is him squirming to get out under the death sentence of killing someone on Continental grounds and breaking, "The Rules". It's all about him, his selfish revenge, and trying to duck the consequences. The assassin verse in John Wick is all about, "the rules are what separate men from beasts." John is doing what both villains of the prior films were trying to do, either breaking the rules or trying to screw with the margins of them.
And in the end, he realizes bowing his head to go back to a peaceful life, even if being left alone is what he wants more than anything in the world, isn't worth it on those terms.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't remember Rose's character doing anything particularly dishonorable. She was a bodyguard who just happened to be working for a complete bastard that Wick wanted dead. Common just had the good luck to be the bodyguard for someone that Wick felt bad about killing. Plus Wick seems the sort that can respect someone who is out on a revenge rampage because someone that they cared about was killed.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I got the impression John was going to honor his marker with Santino then go back into retirement. Trying to tie up John as a loose end sealed Santino's and Rose's fate.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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That was one thing that sat wrong for me with the second film. Santino is pulling a Klingon promotion on his sister, which is pretty dubious but that's why he's pulling in the marker. Then he doubles down by trying to take out Wick with a public bounty, and doesn't manage to get that done. It makes for a fun plot, but it runs into the GoT issue where if everyone is (or is allowed to be with no retribution) a backstabbing murderer who can't ever be trusted then the entire thing just kind of falls apart since everyone would spend all their time locked in a literal bank vault for fear of assassination. Something similar would happen to the assassins since it's one thing to take a job on the basis of how hard it will be to kill the person, it's something totally different to decide if getting paid two million will be worth it if you end up with a five million dollar price on your head.
The situation with Santino was probably an outlier, but even then it really didn't fit well with how the whole gold coin using side of the world works.
Plus he could probably get the sympathy vote since his sister had just been killed.
Isn't that the narrative context?
He hires Wick to kill his sister. The only person who knows this are people he owns. Wick is the known killer. So if the High Table comes down on Wick for killong a member, and interrogate Wick, Santino is in the shit for it being public knowledge*, so taking out Wick is covering his bases.
* Yeah, I absolutely believe most of the Table would suspect, if not outright know that Santino had his sister kill. But I can also believe plausible deniability is a thing. That as long as there isn't a smoking John Wick, then good on you for playing the system.
Winston knew the circumstances of the kill so I would say that the table would also knew, considering they knew just about everything in the third movie.
And yeah if no one is honoring things than the whole thing falls apart, which is kind of what the John Wick movies are about to begin with. Viggo's kid didn't honor John's retirement, John didn't honor the no killing people in the continental and then he didn't kill Winston who also then attempted to kill Wick.
A whole lot of people are acting like there aren't rules while trying to enforce on everyone else.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I’m not actually sure they would care.
It seems like the Table cares more about respecting markers and the rules of the Continental.
Otherwise, why couldn’t John just seek out the desert dude in Wick 2 to say “hey, this guy is trying to use his marker on me to murder one of y’all” to get them involved?
Maybe the Table doesn’t place them above themselves being targets?
Fuck, I want to stop talking about it because the more I think about it the less it makes any realistic sense and I’d rather happily and blissfully suspend my disbelief.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I figured it was like Billy in Predator. She figures she has a slightly higher chance of taking John in CQC, and plans her ambush on being directly behind a mirrored glass door.
I imagined she was trying to avoid the whole "shooting superman" thing.
I think that the third movie made a good case that plausible deniability doesn’t go very far if an adjudicator comes knocking.
It might go further if you’re High Table though.
Why is life so unfair?
Wealth is a helluva drug.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
Turns out the secret to looking that good as you age is... tada, nutrition, exercise and having a fulfilling career.
And in Tom's case several million dollars worth of auditing from members of SeaOrg and letting David Miscavige work you like a muppet.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have all the new blood and organs you could ever want.
Or even more scary Ming na wen is older than wilfred brimley was when he was shooting cocoon.
And yes, Ming Na Wen seems to be effectively ageless.
... and I'd be okay with John Wick existing in the MCU and joining forces with The Cavalry.
Also we don't all live in flavor country anymore. Everybody smoked back in the day and that ages people like crazy.
But back on topic, the thing about the "rules" is that there are different rules for different people. The rich and powerful have extra layers of protection that their underlings do not, and that increases with rank. Help John Wick, but you're the manager of a Continental? Get off scot free and keep your job after sacrificing most of your employees in a pointless slaughter. Help John Wick, but you're the head of a major organization? One stab. Help John Wick in the tiniest way but you're the head of those street people that the rich and powerful think are weird and gross? Seven slashes that were probably meant to be fatal. Working your way up in the ranks and following the rules? You'll die for your trouble because the big boys up top with their High Table want to play blood games at each other. But isn't that the case in the world?
Pretty sure John Wick would be a bad guy in the MCU, like he's an unrepetent well paid murderer. In most other movie series he'd be the bad guy.
pleasepaypreacher.net
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pleasepaypreacher.net
I also suspect that it's not exactly a common thing. You have to assume these folks are generally well protected. Otherwise, I doubt Santino would have gone to the trouble of bringing Wick in at all. He called his marker on the boogeyman to do an impossible job. I'm not sure someone would generally take a bounty on a target like that?
That last bit is actually something that bugs me a little bit about these films. Perkins was willing to go rogue in the Continental for what, 2 million? Or had it been increased to 4 by that point? Either way, that seems a laughably small amount of money to essentially sign your own death warrant (or plan to live in hiding for the rest of your life). Then in the sequel he's running from a 7 million dollar bounty. And not a single person looks at their phone, sees the target, and says "nah, I'm good". Based on the worldbuilding we've seen, it just seems like all of these assassins live pretty decent lives. I'd think it would take more than 7 (or even 14) million to make me roll the dice against a goddamned assassin legend.
And if this has already been discussed, my apologies, but I'm not sure why the Bowery King was punished in Parabellum (other than to set up a hook for the next film). He provided aid to John to kill Santino - but at the time, John was still in the Table's good graces. Are we just assuming that it was because it was done out of contract? Seems weird to me to hold BK accountable for John choosing to break the Continental's rules.
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And Perkins probably thought she could do it and not get caught. Plus retcon.
Basically the Table dished out punishments to keep up the illusion they are untouchable and anyone associated with John killing Santino or getting away from it (as we saw with angelica hustons character) had to be punished so no one else gets ideas.
Which sets up a fourth movie showdown. You have the Bowery King who got fucked up to enforce rules he's not even really apart of, and John Wick a person who ignores rules when he personally feels they don't apply, and a whole bunch of people who are now their targets.
Funny if you go back to what started all of this, it was Viggo's son attacking John in his home, unknowingly to him setting up the whole corrupt system to come crashing down in bullets, knives, and whatever else John Wick can get a hold on.
pleasepaypreacher.net
If Wick didn't think the rules applied to him, he wouldn't have gone to the top brass of the organization to ask for forgiveness, he just would've killed everybody in charge. If anything, Wick is the one trying to stick to the rules but keeps getting screwed because of them. He wanted out, the organization basically wouldn't let him stay out, and his "forgiveness" is to be damned to a lifetime of being what he put behind him in order to be with his wife.
The High Table could have given John an out at any of several points, they only got involved, and only to come down on John and his people, once one of the "service" folks decided to have a copper-jacketed discussion with somebody in head management.