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Any sufficiently advanced [tech] thread is indistinguishable from a magic thread

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Posts

  • expendableexpendable Silly Goose Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Kadith wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Zxerol wrote: »
    holding corporations accountable, lol

    The way it waffled back and forth between "I know what this is and I think it's moving out of the way in time" and "nope that's clearly something in the middle of the road and I WANT TO RAM IT" explains 100% why the emergency brakes were activating chaotically and any software developer worth anything could have debugged that.

    "Just disable the braking safety system" was the concept used instead, because they didn't want to invest the relatively small amount of time to figure it out.

    Reminds me of the therac-25 incident in canada vaguely. They're not 1:1 but a lot of parallels to draw between lazy programmers, cheap executives, and using tech to do things it shouldn't do.

    Driving a car is a nearly braindead simple decision tree, that car had nearly 6 fucking seconds to stop, you can stop a fucking tractor trailer in that amount of time. Most humans can background task driving when things go well that's how simple it is. And it had 5 seconds to go "wait maybe I should slow down?" instead of waffling back and forth every few milliseconds on what it should do an then finally deciding "fuck it, ramming speed". I know AI is the new hotness, but there's absolutely no reason for it in 99% of the applications I've seen.

    The thing about the programming that is insane to me, is that the way i'm reading that report, every time it reclassified, it forgot about everything it had already learned?

    Yeah that's AI/machine learning genetic algorithm decision tree at work.

    Machine learning's results very often will try to "cheat" or "exploit bugs in the rules" rather than actually produce the most efficient method of doing a thing. You could very reasonably build a system that probably outperforms machine learning very quickly.

    The ironic thing is you can tell this original system was designed in a major metropolitan area that has never dealt with things larger than a squirrel darting out in front of you in the road. How "pedestrians and animals only cross at crosswalks" made it past QC is beyond me.

    i don't think that applies to any east coast major metro i've ever been to.

    crosswalks are just a suggestion around here. out west they're sort of respected but it's weird and i don't like it.

    Yeah, just.. how did this design make it out, have they never seen a deer even?

    After one or two of those back and forths where it couldn't figure out what to do (even though it should be reclassifying if possible) it should've pulled over, threw a panic, and let the driver take over. But it kept going "maybe it's a bike, maybe a tree, who fucking knows, RAMMING SPEED BABY"

    How is that not one of the first things baked into the program?

    Djiem wrote: »
    Lokiamis wrote: »
    So the servers suddenly decide to cramp up during the last six percent.
    Man, the Director will really go out of his way to be a dick to L4D players.
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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Uber is not good at this and doesn't really care about doing the right thing, that's why

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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    expendable wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Kadith wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Zxerol wrote: »
    holding corporations accountable, lol

    The way it waffled back and forth between "I know what this is and I think it's moving out of the way in time" and "nope that's clearly something in the middle of the road and I WANT TO RAM IT" explains 100% why the emergency brakes were activating chaotically and any software developer worth anything could have debugged that.

    "Just disable the braking safety system" was the concept used instead, because they didn't want to invest the relatively small amount of time to figure it out.

    Reminds me of the therac-25 incident in canada vaguely. They're not 1:1 but a lot of parallels to draw between lazy programmers, cheap executives, and using tech to do things it shouldn't do.

    Driving a car is a nearly braindead simple decision tree, that car had nearly 6 fucking seconds to stop, you can stop a fucking tractor trailer in that amount of time. Most humans can background task driving when things go well that's how simple it is. And it had 5 seconds to go "wait maybe I should slow down?" instead of waffling back and forth every few milliseconds on what it should do an then finally deciding "fuck it, ramming speed". I know AI is the new hotness, but there's absolutely no reason for it in 99% of the applications I've seen.

    The thing about the programming that is insane to me, is that the way i'm reading that report, every time it reclassified, it forgot about everything it had already learned?

    Yeah that's AI/machine learning genetic algorithm decision tree at work.

    Machine learning's results very often will try to "cheat" or "exploit bugs in the rules" rather than actually produce the most efficient method of doing a thing. You could very reasonably build a system that probably outperforms machine learning very quickly.

    The ironic thing is you can tell this original system was designed in a major metropolitan area that has never dealt with things larger than a squirrel darting out in front of you in the road. How "pedestrians and animals only cross at crosswalks" made it past QC is beyond me.

    i don't think that applies to any east coast major metro i've ever been to.

    crosswalks are just a suggestion around here. out west they're sort of respected but it's weird and i don't like it.

    Yeah, just.. how did this design make it out, have they never seen a deer even?

    After one or two of those back and forths where it couldn't figure out what to do (even though it should be reclassifying if possible) it should've pulled over, threw a panic, and let the driver take over. But it kept going "maybe it's a bike, maybe a tree, who fucking knows, RAMMING SPEED BABY"

    How is that not one of the first things baked into the program?

    it sorta was but the uber devs unplugged it because they couldn't figure out how to get the tech they stole from google to work

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, don't @ me
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  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    bowen wrote: »
    Machine learning's results very often will try to "cheat" or "exploit bugs in the rules" rather than actually produce the most efficient method of doing a thing. You could very reasonably build a system that probably outperforms machine learning very quickly.

    There's a list somewhere of hilarious ways "AI" have exploited stuff to reach the "goals".

    One thing was playing a game and when it was losing it exploited a bug that crashed the game.

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    bowenDixonOrcaInquisitorTynnanexpendableBucketmankimeStiltsMidniteAl_watgodmodeJoolander
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Echo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Machine learning's results very often will try to "cheat" or "exploit bugs in the rules" rather than actually produce the most efficient method of doing a thing. You could very reasonably build a system that probably outperforms machine learning very quickly.

    There's a list somewhere of hilarious ways "AI" have exploited stuff to reach the "goals".

    One thing was playing a game and when it was losing it exploited a bug that crashed the game.

    My favorite was when they set the goal function for Tetris as "don't lose" and it just paused the game.

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  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    I can't argue with that method, who hasn't tried at least once to flip the board in a game of monopoly.

    Kayne Red Robe
  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    Yeah I had a little machine learning project to do something like helping to match movie reviews to recommend movie genre and one of the early errors I got was like I had set it so it HAD to assign an account with a recommendation. So it then ignored every other aspect of the programming and set everything to Action, the first one alphabetically.

    webguy20
  • EchoEcho Moderator mod
    Bucketman wrote: »
    Yeah I had a little machine learning project to do something like helping to match movie reviews to recommend movie genre and one of the early errors I got was like I had set it so it HAD to assign an account with a recommendation. So it then ignored every other aspect of the programming and set everything to Action, the first one alphabetically.

    machine_learning.png

    Echo wrote: »
    Let they who have not posted about their balls in the wrong thread cast the first stone.
    thatassemblyguyTynnanBahamutZEROkimeBucketmanOghulk
  • SorceSorce Registered User regular
    Battery life on the Pixel 4 is supposed to be sub-par, and I think the camera is a step back from the P3?

    I just remember the launch landing amongst tech-tubers as more of a thud than a bang.

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    Backloggery. It's totally updated again, I swear!
  • cursedkingcursedking Registered User regular
    so, I recently bought a 2070 Super, and am going to get a new SSD today. In the next couple of weeks, I want to swap out the mobo and cpu as well. Currently have an old MSI Z87 and an i5 4670k.

    I always get confused about mobo stuff, what should I be looking at? What's the hot new shit that isn't prohibitively expensive?

  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    schuss wrote: »
    Hard to know as I haven't read it in detail, but computer vision+motion generally works like (and will totally defer to people that aren't total hacks at it like me):
    1. Simple - classify object and reprocess every n milliseconds.
    2. Complex - classify, then mask and track object, reclassifying periodically if prediction strength is below a certain threshold.

    You typically run a prebuilt model as there's no input saying "hey, that was actually a person, not a sign" definitively. You could mask/store/update and retrain, but that could cause unacceptable model drift if not done carefully.
    This is why you have people like Nvidia building incredibly complex simulation environments using GANs, as there are a lot of layers of things happening interleaved that would be dangerous to experiment with in real life.

    Pretty much. I haven't looked into what they're actually doing (and the code is probably proprietary anyway) but online model fitting and tracking are hugely processor intensive. Doing it in real time with a large viewfield at high speed is by no means impossible but it's also not quick or easy (understatement!), and it sounds like Uber were going straight for the fast-simple-and-wrong solution.
    My assessment from a distance is that that system wasn't anywhere near ready to be within a kilometre of a real human, let alone on a non-controlled test site, and Uber were cutting corners and moving to on-road tests too soon because they're panicking about their business model and the sooner they can eliminate those pesky drivers, the better.

    bowenBahamutZEROschussMrMonroekimechrishallett83JoolanderBucketman
  • WeaverWeaver Who are you? What do you want?Registered User regular
    Getting a note 10+ today.

    hCpR4ri.jpg
    Steam: weavermatic xbox: weavermatico
    furlionwebguy20Bucketman
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Zxerol wrote: »
    holding corporations accountable, lol

    The way it waffled back and forth between "I know what this is and I think it's moving out of the way in time" and "nope that's clearly something in the middle of the road and I WANT TO RAM IT" explains 100% why the emergency brakes were activating chaotically and any software developer worth anything could have debugged that.

    "Just disable the braking safety system" was the concept used instead, because they didn't want to invest the relatively small amount of time to figure it out.

    Reminds me of the therac-25 incident in canada vaguely. They're not 1:1 but a lot of parallels to draw between lazy programmers, cheap executives, and using tech to do things it shouldn't do.

    Driving a car is a nearly braindead simple decision tree, that car had nearly 6 fucking seconds to stop, you can stop a fucking tractor trailer in that amount of time. Most humans can background task driving when things go well that's how simple it is. And it had 5 seconds to go "wait maybe I should slow down?" instead of waffling back and forth every few milliseconds on what it should do an then finally deciding "fuck it, ramming speed". I know AI is the new hotness, but there's absolutely no reason for it in 99% of the applications I've seen.

    Jesus that Therac-25 thing is terrifying

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  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    edited November 9
    Al_wat wrote: »
    Jesus that Therac-25 thing is terrifying

    It's a cautionary tale in CS programs for a reason.

    Orca on
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  • V1mV1m Registered User regular
    cursedking wrote: »
    so, I recently bought a 2070 Super, and am going to get a new SSD today. In the next couple of weeks, I want to swap out the mobo and cpu as well. Currently have an old MSI Z87 and an i5 4670k.

    I always get confused about mobo stuff, what should I be looking at? What's the hot new shit that isn't prohibitively expensive?

    It's difficult to argue against going with a Ryzen at this point, unless you're against getting some DDR 4 as well

    SporkAndrew
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    DrZiplock wrote: »
    Thinking it might be time to upgrade from my OG Pixel.

    Pixel 3a (cause price point and mmm headphone jack)
    or
    Pixel 4 (shiny and new and the size is equal to the OG Pixel)

    Leaning hard into the 3a but if people have compelling thoughts in the other direction let's hear 'em.

    @DrZiplock

    Pixel 3A will be $299.99 at Amazon, Best Buy, and B&H Photo
    Pixel 3A XL will be $379 at Amazon, Best Buy, and B&H Photo

    https://www.theverge.com/good-deals/2019/11/8/20955411/black-friday-google-deals-cyber-monday-pixel-4-3a-xl-nest-hub-wifi-pixelbook

    DrZiplock
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    Wow my Samsung tv just updated itself and installed a fucking ad service onto the home screen.

    I managed to disable it, but I feel fucking outraged right now.

    V1mDoodmann
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
  • pimentopimento they/pim Registered User regular
    edited November 10
    Blake T wrote: »
    Wow my Samsung tv just updated itself and installed a fucking ad service onto the home screen.

    I managed to disable it, but I feel fucking outraged right now.

    Yea once I saw how much outbound data my TV was using I blocked it from my wi-fi. They upload lots of usage info and whatnot - turns out there's no profit margin on TVs anymore so they capture usage data and sell it to actually make money on them. Or they run ads on them.

    pimento on
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  • JedocJedoc Take a look. It's in a book. It was always in a book, you fool.Registered User regular
    She laughed. I laughed. The TV laughed. I shot the TV. It was a good time.

    GDdCWMm.jpg
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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    That actually explains why TVs are so cheap nowaddays. I can pick up a 52 inch 4k TV for just a couple hundred bucks.

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    As someone who recently got a new cheap TV what’s the best way to block that outbound data (crucially without losing the ability to watch anything and upsetting my partner, as the streaming services we use are also built into the TV.)

  • BronzeKoopaBronzeKoopa Registered User regular
    I run pihole on my home network and it blocks some stuff on my roku tv. Like on the roku channel list there's a banner on the right side that has ads, and pihole blocks that. Don't know if it stops analytics data going outbound.

  • webguy20webguy20 Spends too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    As someone who recently got a new cheap TV what’s the best way to block that outbound data (crucially without losing the ability to watch anything and upsetting my partner, as the streaming services we use are also built into the TV.)

    You should be able to allow it to reach out to the streaming services while blocking the addresses related to the data collection. A good Router should allow this.

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    InquisitorBucketman
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    I feel like even consumer routers ought to have some sort of packet filtering option. Looks like ours does.

    don't trust this, because I'm just spitballing, but

    data analytics could be udp going out, but the request for content would be tcp in/out, udp in. Block all udp out traffic from the TV?

    Bucketman
  • VeldrinVeldrin Sham bam bamina Registered User regular
    ALL OF THE THINGS ARRIVED

    ercn9rjey5ma.jpg

    I haven't done a PC build in almost a decade, so hopefully nothing explodes too badly.

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  • SorceSorce Registered User regular
    Just remember that when you're putting everything inside the case, to always screw with confidence.

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    Backloggery. It's totally updated again, I swear!
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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Realtor Santa ClaritaRegistered User regular
    Sorce wrote: »
    Just remember that when you're putting everything inside the case, to always screw with confidence.

    I have it on good authority that Veldrin always screws with confidence.

    Veldrin
  • DrZiplockDrZiplock Registered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »
    DrZiplock wrote: »
    Thinking it might be time to upgrade from my OG Pixel.

    Pixel 3a (cause price point and mmm headphone jack)
    or
    Pixel 4 (shiny and new and the size is equal to the OG Pixel)

    Leaning hard into the 3a but if people have compelling thoughts in the other direction let's hear 'em.

    @DrZiplock

    Pixel 3A will be $299.99 at Amazon, Best Buy, and B&H Photo
    Pixel 3A XL will be $379 at Amazon, Best Buy, and B&H Photo

    https://www.theverge.com/good-deals/2019/11/8/20955411/black-friday-google-deals-cyber-monday-pixel-4-3a-xl-nest-hub-wifi-pixelbook

    Oh nice, thanks for sharing the info!

    That said, I have Google Fi and it was $299 for me when I ordered through my app - so that's interesting. Also, I picked up the 3a and have been enjoying it so far. It being a half an inch taller than the original is a bit annoying, but whatcha gonna do.

    Thanks for all the confirmation and recommendations, thread!

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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »

    Impossible; we didn't write "be sexist!" into the algorithm!

    chrishallett83honoverePolaritiekimeBucketman
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    pimento wrote: »
    Blake T wrote: »
    Wow my Samsung tv just updated itself and installed a fucking ad service onto the home screen.

    I managed to disable it, but I feel fucking outraged right now.

    Yea once I saw how much outbound data my TV was using I blocked it from my wi-fi. They upload lots of usage info and whatnot - turns out there's no profit margin on TVs anymore so they capture usage data and sell it to actually make money on them. Or they run ads on them.

    I feel like there's probably an actual market for dumb TVs for tech adverse olds and IT people who know that shit is bad and seen how awful it's implementation can be.

    At this point it wouldn't shock me to hear smart tvs want to be cameras in them to capture you watching them so they can better advertise.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, don't @ me
    OrcaBucketman
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »

    Impossible; we didn't write "be sexist!" into the algorithm!

    If they're directly using gender they're in for a shitstorm as financial services regs are pretty ironclad on that. Likely some weird proxy for gender was included, as the more likely answer is poor model oversight from an ethical standpoint. Ethics/bias review on models is pretty early state.

    tynic
  • BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    pimento wrote: »
    Blake T wrote: »
    Wow my Samsung tv just updated itself and installed a fucking ad service onto the home screen.

    I managed to disable it, but I feel fucking outraged right now.

    Yea once I saw how much outbound data my TV was using I blocked it from my wi-fi. They upload lots of usage info and whatnot - turns out there's no profit margin on TVs anymore so they capture usage data and sell it to actually make money on them. Or they run ads on them.

    I feel like there's probably an actual market for dumb TVs for tech adverse olds and IT people who know that shit is bad and seen how awful it's implementation can be.

    At this point it wouldn't shock me to hear smart tvs want to be cameras in them to capture you watching them so they can better advertise.


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  • UrielUriel Registered User regular
    edited November 11
    Alright wrap it up folks, we're done here.

    Humans had a good run.

    Uriel on
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  • RandomEncounterRandomEncounter Registered User regular
    Debatable

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  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    We had a... run.

    Pretty short compared to dinosaurs tbh

    minor incidentOrcathatassemblyguyBucketmanOghulkDoodmann
  • KwoaruKwoaru Registered User regular
    Yeah cause dinosaurs were lazy

    2x39jD4.jpg
    kime
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Kwoaru wrote: »
    Yeah cause dinosaurs were lazy

    "We made these huge buildings"
    "Bitch I am a building"

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