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[Star Wars Thread] Solid... I’m going to say analysis?

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Posts

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    I feel like the Mandalorians fill this space too much now, though they're more like space Vikings in how they carry a personalized variety of weapons. A group of Mandos might all be wearing similar armor, but they've probably all got several unique weapons for each Mando.

    But the Jedi should definitely had some flex in their armament. I read a trilogy where they had a super-traditional warrior caste, and even they were allowed to update their long range weapons as needed. Just makes sense to carry useful tools.

    This just makes me wonder why Jedi have weapons at all.

    No, really. I get the Rule of Cool and the benefit of an unbreakable sword that can cut through just about anything, but shouldn’t mastery of the Force be enough on its own?

    ...Or were most Jedi a bit shit at stuff beyond using the light saber or something.

    Well, of the four jedi classes in SW: The Old Republic, three of them primarily fight with a light saber, and only one primarily with the force (and they still carry a saber)…

    So what I'm saying is, yes. Yes, they were.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    jdarksunElvenshae
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    I feel like the Mandalorians fill this space too much now, though they're more like space Vikings in how they carry a personalized variety of weapons. A group of Mandos might all be wearing similar armor, but they've probably all got several unique weapons for each Mando.

    But the Jedi should definitely had some flex in their armament. I read a trilogy where they had a super-traditional warrior caste, and even they were allowed to update their long range weapons as needed. Just makes sense to carry useful tools.

    This just makes me wonder why Jedi have weapons at all.

    No, really. I get the Rule of Cool and the benefit of an unbreakable sword that can cut through just about anything, but shouldn’t mastery of the Force be enough on its own?

    ...Or were most Jedi a bit shit at stuff beyond using the light saber or something.

    For the longest time, my head canon was that only the Jedi Knights carried a lightsaber.
    The apprentices (this was in the days before "padawan" happened), weren't trusted with a weapon of such power (or the responsibilities of the position it represented) until they had proven themselves capable enough with the force and mature enough to wield one wisely. Which was why building the lightsaber was the official test between apprentice and knight, building it yourself proved you had the patience and force control to fit all the precision fiddly bits together just right and build a weapon of tremendous destructive capacity that wasn't going to turn into a hand grenade when used.
    Then, later, the knight may realize that their skill with the force was so potent and capable in so many ways that the laser sword seemed like a poor choice by comparison. So knowing they were ready and capable of putting the saber down was the proof that they were ready to be considered a Jedi Master. Which is why (in the OT) you never saw Palpatine or Yoda with a saber: both of them had enough force power behind them that resorting to such a weapon would be a massive step down, like setting aside a flame thrower for a Bic lighter modified by a bored teenager.

    But, then the prequels happened. We saw Palpatine slaughter jedi with his red lightsaber, the Jedi council of masters all walking around with sabers on their hips and Yoda skipping around like an off balance gyroscope.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Doctor DetroitCommander ZoomLinespider5DarkPrimusFencingsaxNightslyrElvenshaeKanaSynthesisMatevHeir
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    I feel like the Mandalorians fill this space too much now, though they're more like space Vikings in how they carry a personalized variety of weapons. A group of Mandos might all be wearing similar armor, but they've probably all got several unique weapons for each Mando.

    But the Jedi should definitely had some flex in their armament. I read a trilogy where they had a super-traditional warrior caste, and even they were allowed to update their long range weapons as needed. Just makes sense to carry useful tools.

    This just makes me wonder why Jedi have weapons at all.

    No, really. I get the Rule of Cool and the benefit of an unbreakable sword that can cut through just about anything, but shouldn’t mastery of the Force be enough on its own?

    ...Or were most Jedi a bit shit at stuff beyond using the light saber or something.

    For the longest time, my head canon was that only the Jedi Knights carried a lightsaber.
    The apprentices (this was in the days before "padawan" happened), weren't trusted with a weapon of such power (or the responsibilities of the position it represented) until they had proven themselves capable enough with the force and mature enough to wield one wisely. Which was why building the lightsaber was the official test between apprentice and knight, building it yourself proved you had the patience and force control to fit all the precision fiddly bits together just right and build a weapon of tremendous destructive capacity that wasn't going to turn into a hand grenade when used.
    Then, later, the knight may realize that their skill with the force was so potent and capable in so many ways that the laser sword seemed like a poor choice by comparison. So knowing they were ready and capable of putting the saber down was the proof that they were ready to be considered a Jedi Master. Which is why (in the OT) you never saw Palpatine or Yoda with a saber: both of them had enough force power behind them that resorting to such a weapon would be a massive step down, like setting aside a flame thrower for a Bic lighter modified by a bored teenager.

    But, then the prequels happened. We saw Palpatine slaughter jedi with his red lightsaber, the Jedi council of masters all walking around with sabers on their hips and Yoda skipping around like an off balance gyroscope.

    Yoda had abandoned fighting entirely, and Palpatine's faith in his own absolute control ended up killing him. A true master uses every tool available to them.

    Atlas in Chains
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    There's a brief moment in the Mustafar duel where Anakin and Obi-wan both lose their sabers and do martial arts fistfighting which was kind of cool

    Then there's another part where they try to fight with the force and it's just them grimacing and pretending to strain at each other with splayed fingertips inches apart and it was dumb. Which I think explains why they gave Palpatine a lightsaber: it's hard to make a pure force duel look good on screen. The force lightning fight between Dooku and Yoda was just as boring as their saber duel, and Palpatine himself can't seem to think of anything better than throwing chairs at Yoda.

    FencingsaxNightslyrAtlas in Chains
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    Man, you all are getting me excited for my annual PT recut.

    Yes I am aware that sounds insane. I don't know what my problem is.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    Torchlight | Steam | ART
    FencingsaxNightslyrElvenshae
  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Sometimes I do wonder about what could eventually happen with deepfake technology to create new footage for things like recut movies that need sequences changed.

  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?
    <snip>
    But this specifically seems to fall into the trap of "extrapolating out from the one example and treating that as gospel". Luke has no problems using a blaster pistol during his training or after it (admittedly we don't see much of that after the films). But Obi-Wan describes it a lightsaber as "not as clumsy or random" by comparison, and now it's a sacred object of worship as oppose to a distinctive tool for the Jedi, along with quite a few others.

    I don't think the OT ever implied lightsabers were really that useful against blasters. Vader never uses his against a blaster. Obi-wan does, but only as a quick draw in close quarters. The one time Luke uses his against a lot of gunmen, it's against Jabba's crew of dumbass criminals, and he still gets fucking shot.

    In fact, Obi-wan and Vader both seem to conspicuously avoid putting themselves in combat with large groups of gunmen.

  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?
    <snip>
    But this specifically seems to fall into the trap of "extrapolating out from the one example and treating that as gospel". Luke has no problems using a blaster pistol during his training or after it (admittedly we don't see much of that after the films). But Obi-Wan describes it a lightsaber as "not as clumsy or random" by comparison, and now it's a sacred object of worship as oppose to a distinctive tool for the Jedi, along with quite a few others.

    I don't think the OT ever implied lightsabers were really that useful against blasters. Vader never uses his against a blaster. Obi-wan does, but only as a quick draw in close quarters. The one time Luke uses his against a lot of gunmen, it's against Jabba's crew of dumbass criminals, and he still gets fucking shot.

    In fact, Obi-wan and Vader both seem to conspicuously avoid putting themselves in combat with large groups of gunmen.

    I always thought that bit was real dumb. The guy pops out of this hatch unnoticed just a few feet behind Luke and rather than just shooting Luke in the back, he adjusts his aim high and right for a much more difficult shot to the back of his moving hand. Then when Luke spins around, we see him drop his aim center mass where it should have been to begin with, but gets cut down before the dumbass can shoot again. At least film it so the guy is farther away so we can believe it was just a simple missed shot rather than deliberate.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    On the skiff, Luke holds off a half dozen guards at point blank range. While they're shooting at him. Then he takes out another set on the barge.

    The only shot he takes is from Boba Fett, who tries - and fails - to disarm him.

    SteelhawkCouscousCapt HowdyNightslyrShadowenElvenshaeMancingtom
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?
    <snip>
    But this specifically seems to fall into the trap of "extrapolating out from the one example and treating that as gospel". Luke has no problems using a blaster pistol during his training or after it (admittedly we don't see much of that after the films). But Obi-Wan describes it a lightsaber as "not as clumsy or random" by comparison, and now it's a sacred object of worship as oppose to a distinctive tool for the Jedi, along with quite a few others.

    I don't think the OT ever implied lightsabers were really that useful against blasters. Vader never uses his against a blaster. Obi-wan does, but only as a quick draw in close quarters. The one time Luke uses his against a lot of gunmen, it's against Jabba's crew of dumbass criminals, and he still gets fucking shot.

    In fact, Obi-wan and Vader both seem to conspicuously avoid putting themselves in combat with large groups of gunmen.

    I always thought that bit was real dumb. The guy pops out of this hatch unnoticed just a few feet behind Luke and rather than just shooting Luke in the back, he adjusts his aim high and right for a much more difficult shot to the back of his moving hand. Then when Luke spins around, we see him drop his aim center mass where it should have been to begin with, but gets cut down before the dumbass can shoot again. At least film it so the guy is farther away so we can believe it was just a simple missed shot rather than deliberate.

    Handwave that away with Jedi precognition only works with lethal intent. So long as you aren't actively trying to take a kill shot, his spider sense ins't going to twig.

  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    The prequels give the Jedi as an order a weird obsession with orthodoxy and purity and the image of both. So, "totally obliterate the Sith when we already outnumber them thousands to one" becomes "bring balance to the force." As oppose to calling it what it is, "totally obliterating the Sith" and explaining why that's a worthwhile goal. So, blasters are "uncivilized", but armies of disposable cloned war slaves that literally only exist to fight and die? Well, you gotta' do what you gotta' do. If the objective was to make the order appear at least mildly hypocritical, well, then it was successful.

    Think about how stupidly written the prequels are for a second. In New Hope, it's established that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the Clone Wars. The Clone Wars hmmm... perhaps the Jedi, Guardians of Peace and Justice for Thousands of years, were pushed to their breaking point by an army of unfeeling, murderous clones. That makes sense! The weight of numbers against the incredible power of the Jedi order.

    No, says Lucas, duh, the Jedi were on the same side as the Clones. The "wars" were Clones vs robots and... ugh.

    ElvenshaeSynthesisNightslyrLanlaornCalica
  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    My thinking was that the Clone Wars involved the Sith going crazy with clone tech they managed to swipe, forcing the Jedi to lead the galaxy in a brutal war of attrition which only a few Jedi survived. Then with the Jedi all but gone and the Sith clones destroyed, Palpatine made his moves basically unopposed and Vader was able to hunt the remaining Jedi down without great difficulty. The galaxy, recovering from the viciousness of a Sith army that fed on pain and fear, just wants order back and thus doesn't put up a big fuss when Palpatine rolls in and starts putting things in "order". By the time the galaxy caught up to what was going on, Palpatine is the Emperor, the Senate is gone, and the Imperial Navy is now operating under standard "stomp on necks first, execute more of them later" orders for maintaining peace.

    I definitely never thought of something as bland as a bunch of soulless robots fighting a bunch of copy-and-paste soldiers that were largely just as robotic as their opponents, with the Jedi happily taking the reins of a giant slave army.

    RchanenElvenshaeDoodmannNightslyrshoeboxjeddyCalica
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Heffling wrote: »
    I think the Jedi wore robes because when filming action sequences, robes flow and contribute more to action than a tight fitting uniform.

    Except this actually kind of fucked them because when the fights went to CGI they looked really off because they didn't have the tech to make the CGI robes look realistic.

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    On a side note I almost wish Jedi robes were like a real world fashion thing.

    Those ridiculous layers would be amazing in the winter here :P

    FencingsaxsullijoElvenshaeJayrichoNightslyrShadowen
  • -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    I mean, no ones stopping you wearing Jedi robes.

    HefflingDoctor DetroitTheDrifterArithon32Shadowen
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Krieghund wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?
    <snip>
    But this specifically seems to fall into the trap of "extrapolating out from the one example and treating that as gospel". Luke has no problems using a blaster pistol during his training or after it (admittedly we don't see much of that after the films). But Obi-Wan describes it a lightsaber as "not as clumsy or random" by comparison, and now it's a sacred object of worship as oppose to a distinctive tool for the Jedi, along with quite a few others.

    I don't think the OT ever implied lightsabers were really that useful against blasters. Vader never uses his against a blaster. Obi-wan does, but only as a quick draw in close quarters. The one time Luke uses his against a lot of gunmen, it's against Jabba's crew of dumbass criminals, and he still gets fucking shot.

    In fact, Obi-wan and Vader both seem to conspicuously avoid putting themselves in combat with large groups of gunmen.

    I always thought that bit was real dumb. The guy pops out of this hatch unnoticed just a few feet behind Luke and rather than just shooting Luke in the back, he adjusts his aim high and right for a much more difficult shot to the back of his moving hand. Then when Luke spins around, we see him drop his aim center mass where it should have been to begin with, but gets cut down before the dumbass can shoot again. At least film it so the guy is farther away so we can believe it was just a simple missed shot rather than deliberate.

    Handwave that away with Jedi precognition only works with lethal intent. So long as you aren't actively trying to take a kill shot, his spider sense ins't going to twig.

    It works against droids, which have no mental connection to the Force.

    ElvenshaeShadowen
  • sullijosullijo mid-level minion subterranean bunkerRegistered User regular
    On a side note I almost wish Jedi robes were like a real world fashion thing.

    Those ridiculous layers would be amazing in the winter here :P

    I have a homemade Jedi costume and have definitely been known to wear the cloak around the house when it's chilly.

    sig_nextwave.jpg
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    For those unhappy about Palpatine having a light saber, I think it makes it worth it for this scene alone:

    ObiFettmanwiththemachinegunSteelhawkMatevHeir
  • Palpatine having a lightsaber is one thing how about that daycare full of babies with lightsabers if you gave that many tpddlers in that proximity regular swords thered be multiple insane instantaneous fatalities let alone laser swords

    Calica
  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Palpatine having a lightsaber is one thing how about that daycare full of babies with lightsabers if you gave that many tpddlers in that proximity regular swords thered be multiple insane instantaneous fatalities let alone laser swords
    I imagine it's a little safer when you can just pull the laserknives out of their toddler hands with your brain.

    Also those could be bonksabers.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Magic light swords wielded by magical flow-state pacifists are probably safe enough.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 8
    Enc wrote: »
    For those unhappy about Palpatine having a light saber, I think it makes it worth it for this scene alone:

    Obviously this is purely a matter of personal taste and preference, but watching this for the first time--I feel about it the way I suspect most people feel about Yoda's lightsaber battles in the prequels. Though I suppose it being entirely CG from the start makes it a tiny bit less jarring.

    The would-be emperor being cunning enough to survive this incredibly dangerous game he played for years and years seems more impressive without realizing "Oh yeah, if anyone wanted to kill them, he'd just Yoda-backflip around gyroscope style." Basically, as @see317 noted.
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    The prequels give the Jedi as an order a weird obsession with orthodoxy and purity and the image of both. So, "totally obliterate the Sith when we already outnumber them thousands to one" becomes "bring balance to the force." As oppose to calling it what it is, "totally obliterating the Sith" and explaining why that's a worthwhile goal. So, blasters are "uncivilized", but armies of disposable cloned war slaves that literally only exist to fight and die? Well, you gotta' do what you gotta' do. If the objective was to make the order appear at least mildly hypocritical, well, then it was successful.

    Think about how stupidly written the prequels are for a second. In New Hope, it's established that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the Clone Wars. The Clone Wars hmmm... perhaps the Jedi, Guardians of Peace and Justice for Thousands of years, were pushed to their breaking point by an army of unfeeling, murderous clones. That makes sense! The weight of numbers against the incredible power of the Jedi order.

    No, says Lucas, duh, the Jedi were on the same side as the Clones. The "wars" were Clones vs robots and... ugh.

    "Unfeeling, murderous clones," is almost word-for-word the explanation given in the Thrawn Trilogy, but that's what happened with whatever notes LucasFilm saw fit to supply Timothy Zahn. But yes, it was pretty reasonable to suspect the Clone Wars could not have just as easily been called "The Droid Wars", especially given that both droids, and clones, were clearly already practical applications of industry and technology beforehand anyway. It's like if instead of calling it "the Great Patriotic War" or "Operation Barbarossa" or "the German-Soviet War"--we called it, "the Tank War." Because there were more tanks than in any other war before or after! Or "the Aircraft war" for the same reason.

    Ironically, the exception to those complaints would be if the films actually realized a political controversy around the whole "Millions of cloned war slaves" thing, either among the Jedi, or the Republican government, or both, and that such an atrocity completely obscured the actual causes for a wasteful secessionist conflict in a "democratic" or "representative" federation where members had the "legal right" to leave. Except...no one really gave a shit, including the clones? The Empire stopped using clones the moment they figured out how to fuel their own massive war machine with conscripts and volunteers, and that's pretty much the last we ever hear about them barring the pre-Prequel trilogy shenanigans in Dark Empire and marginally-less-stupid application of the same method (using cloned war slaves to round out your numbers rather than serve as your entire regular military, and cloning from dozens or hundreds of sources instead of just one) in the Thrawn Trilogy.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
    ElvenshaeNightslyrLanlaorn
  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    My thinking was that the Clone Wars involved the Sith going crazy with clone tech they managed to swipe, forcing the Jedi to lead the galaxy in a brutal war of attrition which only a few Jedi survived. Then with the Jedi all but gone and the Sith clones destroyed, Palpatine made his moves basically unopposed and Vader was able to hunt the remaining Jedi down without great difficulty. The galaxy, recovering from the viciousness of a Sith army that fed on pain and fear, just wants order back and thus doesn't put up a big fuss when Palpatine rolls in and starts putting things in "order". By the time the galaxy caught up to what was going on, Palpatine is the Emperor, the Senate is gone, and the Imperial Navy is now operating under standard "stomp on necks first, execute more of them later" orders for maintaining peace.

    I definitely never thought of something as bland as a bunch of soulless robots fighting a bunch of copy-and-paste soldiers that were largely just as robotic as their opponents, with the Jedi happily taking the reins of a giant slave army.

    The PT problems go all the way to the first draft of the script. The story he decided to tell is not just bad, it's nonsensical in the context we had so far.

    Whippy wrote: »
    nope nope nope nope abort abort talk about anime
    Torchlight | Steam | ART
    Gvzbgul
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    For those unhappy about Palpatine having a light saber, I think it makes it worth it for this scene alone:

    Obviously this is purely a matter of personal taste and preference, but watching this for the first time--I feel about it the way I suspect most people feel about Yoda's lightsaber battles in the prequels. Though I suppose it being entirely CG from the start makes it a tiny bit less jarring.

    The would-be emperor being cunning enough to survive this incredibly dangerous game he played for years and years seems more impressive without realizing "Oh yeah, if anyone wanted to kill them, he'd just Yoda-backflip around gyroscope style." Basically, as @see317 noted.
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    The prequels give the Jedi as an order a weird obsession with orthodoxy and purity and the image of both. So, "totally obliterate the Sith when we already outnumber them thousands to one" becomes "bring balance to the force." As oppose to calling it what it is, "totally obliterating the Sith" and explaining why that's a worthwhile goal. So, blasters are "uncivilized", but armies of disposable cloned war slaves that literally only exist to fight and die? Well, you gotta' do what you gotta' do. If the objective was to make the order appear at least mildly hypocritical, well, then it was successful.

    Think about how stupidly written the prequels are for a second. In New Hope, it's established that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the Clone Wars. The Clone Wars hmmm... perhaps the Jedi, Guardians of Peace and Justice for Thousands of years, were pushed to their breaking point by an army of unfeeling, murderous clones. That makes sense! The weight of numbers against the incredible power of the Jedi order.

    No, says Lucas, duh, the Jedi were on the same side as the Clones. The "wars" were Clones vs robots and... ugh.

    "Unfeeling, murderous clones," is almost word-for-word the explanation given in the Thrawn Trilogy, but that's what happened with whatever notes LucasFilm saw fit to supply Timothy Zahn. But yes, it was pretty reasonable to suspect the Clone Wars could not have just as easily been called "The Droid Wars", especially given that both droids, and clones, were clearly already practical applications of industry and technology beforehand anyway. It's like if instead of calling it "the Great Patriotic War" or "Operation Barbarossa" or "the German-Soviet War"--we called it, "the Tank War." Because there were more tanks than in any other war before or after! Or "the Aircraft war" for the same reason.

    Ironically, the exception to those complaints would be if the films actually realized a political controversy around the whole "Millions of cloned war slaves" thing, either among the Jedi, or the Republican government, or both, and that such an atrocity completely obscured the actual causes for a wasteful secessionist conflict in a "democratic" or "representative" federation where members had the "legal right" to leave. Except...no one really gave a shit, including the clones? The Empire stopped using clones the moment they figured out how to fuel their own massive war machine with conscripts and volunteers, and that's pretty much the last we ever hear about them barring the pre-Prequel trilogy shenanigans in Dark Empire and marginally-less-stupid application of the same method (using cloned war slaves to round out your numbers rather than serve as your entire regular military, and cloning from dozens or hundreds of sources instead of just one) in the Thrawn Trilogy.

    In regards to that Clone Wars scene, with the buildup of Maul and Savage Oppress being basically unstoppable, and earning that over the course of the arc, Palpatine showing up and just wrecking their shit was suuuuper satisfying to me.

    I don't personally mind Yoda's fighting style in the PT too much, I just think it should have been more like what Palpatine did in that CW episode, and what Yoda does in a bunch of them. Its not about light sabers, its about using the sword to position the target where they need for a force-powered strategic hit. My main dislike of PT Yoda fight is that he is totally reactionary with the force, rather than actually doing something to try and end the fight.

    Steelhawk
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    For those unhappy about Palpatine having a light saber, I think it makes it worth it for this scene alone:

    Obviously this is purely a matter of personal taste and preference, but watching this for the first time--I feel about it the way I suspect most people feel about Yoda's lightsaber battles in the prequels. Though I suppose it being entirely CG from the start makes it a tiny bit less jarring.

    The would-be emperor being cunning enough to survive this incredibly dangerous game he played for years and years seems more impressive without realizing "Oh yeah, if anyone wanted to kill them, he'd just Yoda-backflip around gyroscope style." Basically, as @see317 noted.
    Synthesis wrote: »
    I've said it before, but the Jedi were inspired by Samurai, whose swords were mainly a badge of office and ritual weapon. They were expected to use and be proficient in all kinds of weapons.

    It would have been cool if the Jedi Order did the same thing, like, everyone carries the lightsaber but they also carry sidearms and stuff, you know?

    The prequels give the Jedi as an order a weird obsession with orthodoxy and purity and the image of both. So, "totally obliterate the Sith when we already outnumber them thousands to one" becomes "bring balance to the force." As oppose to calling it what it is, "totally obliterating the Sith" and explaining why that's a worthwhile goal. So, blasters are "uncivilized", but armies of disposable cloned war slaves that literally only exist to fight and die? Well, you gotta' do what you gotta' do. If the objective was to make the order appear at least mildly hypocritical, well, then it was successful.

    Think about how stupidly written the prequels are for a second. In New Hope, it's established that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought in the Clone Wars. The Clone Wars hmmm... perhaps the Jedi, Guardians of Peace and Justice for Thousands of years, were pushed to their breaking point by an army of unfeeling, murderous clones. That makes sense! The weight of numbers against the incredible power of the Jedi order.

    No, says Lucas, duh, the Jedi were on the same side as the Clones. The "wars" were Clones vs robots and... ugh.

    "Unfeeling, murderous clones," is almost word-for-word the explanation given in the Thrawn Trilogy, but that's what happened with whatever notes LucasFilm saw fit to supply Timothy Zahn. But yes, it was pretty reasonable to suspect the Clone Wars could not have just as easily been called "The Droid Wars", especially given that both droids, and clones, were clearly already practical applications of industry and technology beforehand anyway. It's like if instead of calling it "the Great Patriotic War" or "Operation Barbarossa" or "the German-Soviet War"--we called it, "the Tank War." Because there were more tanks than in any other war before or after! Or "the Aircraft war" for the same reason.

    Ironically, the exception to those complaints would be if the films actually realized a political controversy around the whole "Millions of cloned war slaves" thing, either among the Jedi, or the Republican government, or both, and that such an atrocity completely obscured the actual causes for a wasteful secessionist conflict in a "democratic" or "representative" federation where members had the "legal right" to leave. Except...no one really gave a shit, including the clones? The Empire stopped using clones the moment they figured out how to fuel their own massive war machine with conscripts and volunteers, and that's pretty much the last we ever hear about them barring the pre-Prequel trilogy shenanigans in Dark Empire and marginally-less-stupid application of the same method (using cloned war slaves to round out your numbers rather than serve as your entire regular military, and cloning from dozens or hundreds of sources instead of just one) in the Thrawn Trilogy.

    In regards to that Clone Wars scene, with the buildup of Maul and Savage Oppress being basically unstoppable, and earning that over the course of the arc, Palpatine showing up and just wrecking their shit was suuuuper satisfying to me.

    I don't personally mind Yoda's fighting style in the PT too much, I just think it should have been more like what Palpatine did in that CW episode, and what Yoda does in a bunch of them. Its not about light sabers, its about using the sword to position the target where they need for a force-powered strategic hit. My main dislike of PT Yoda fight is that he is totally reactionary with the force, rather than actually doing something to try and end the fight.

    That's reasonable--in the end, this boils down to personal taste. I've gradually gotten less and less impressed with lightsaber battles as time goes on, and this even extends to the Classic Trilogy (and the sequel Trilogy). I've found I'm more impressed by the "mind games", however brief, that seem to proceed and sometimes appear during the actual engagements. But I know they're a pretty core element of the CG animated series, and both (or all three?) used the animation technology to full effect, because you go big or go home.

    In my own case, it's just that when people look at, for example, the episode 2 fight between young-ish Anakin and Christopher Lee, and complain about it being full of meaningless gestures, I feel almost exactly the same about every lightsaber battle I've seen involving the Emperor or Yoda. I hadn't even seen that particular clip before today, and it felt very consistent. Yes, there's a certain added intensity, but that doesn't fundamentally change them. But that's probably a pretty uncommon opinion--like being unimpressed by the whole "shoved a guy down with the lightsaber instead of cutting him in half" in the trailer for episode 9. People feeling differently is reasonable.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    The Rebels fight between Obi Wan and Maul is, in my opinion, the best lightsaber fight:

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 8
    I'd never seen that one either. Those are some pretty entertaining mind games before the noisy lightsaber wobbling sounds kick in.

    And it was a good length too.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I’m partial to the duels with Vader that bookend season 2 of Rebels.

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  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    I’ll never stop thinking about how clones were a massive non-issue for basically everyone ever.

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  • BizazedoBizazedo Registered User regular
    Bloods End wrote: »
    Good story. My main takeaway was them saying Resistance was a hit, though?

    Ugh.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    The lightsaber fights work best when they’re eye candy to supplement the emotional or character stuff that’s driving the conflict. RotJ’s climactic fight had relatively little saber on saber contact compared to the verbal interaction between Vader and Luke. That Rebels scene was intense but the sabers were lit for all of maybe 15 seconds.

    It’s like in westerns where the quick draw duel is the iconic action, but that duel takes almost no time and it’s all the other stuff that makes those scenes memorable.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I’ll never stop thinking about how clones were a massive non-issue for basically everyone ever.

    Droids, too. The more complex ones are definitely sentient beings that are owned as property, casually destroyed when (in)convenient, and even more casually memory-wiped when they start displaying too much personality or free will.
    And except for a literal handful of people in-universe (lots more out of, obviously), no one has a problem or even thinks about this.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The lightsaber fights work best when they’re eye candy to supplement the emotional or character stuff that’s driving the conflict. RotJ’s climactic fight had relatively little saber on saber contact compared to the verbal interaction between Vader and Luke. That Rebels scene was intense but the sabers were lit for all of maybe 15 seconds.

    It’s like in westerns where the quick draw duel is the iconic action, but that duel takes almost no time and it’s all the other stuff that makes those scenes memorable.

    The Rebels duel draws strongly from classic cinematic samurai duels. Focus on the eyes, the stances, the footwork, the building tension... then a few strikes, one swordsman collapses, and it's over.

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  • DoodmannDoodmann Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The lightsaber fights work best when they’re eye candy to supplement the emotional or character stuff that’s driving the conflict. RotJ’s climactic fight had relatively little saber on saber contact compared to the verbal interaction between Vader and Luke. That Rebels scene was intense but the sabers were lit for all of maybe 15 seconds.

    It’s like in westerns where the quick draw duel is the iconic action, but that duel takes almost no time and it’s all the other stuff that makes those scenes memorable.

    The Rebels duel draws strongly from classic cinematic samurai duels. Focus on the eyes, the stances, the footwork, the building tension... then a few strikes, one swordsman collapses, and it's over.

    That's also basically how the OT fights were setup, with a little more Erol Flynn getting in throughout.

    It makes the shift to wuxia just bizarre.

    I do like the raw mashup of modern and almost medieval choreography of the ST. Especially since everyone involved is largely winging it.

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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    I like lightsaber battles when they give the feeling that they're like, the one visible part of some kind of gigantic, subtle force power battle going on invisibly around them. Like the final fight between Luke and Vader is great for that.

    There's some good fights like that in clone wars. Not really the Palpatine fight, but like anakin's fighting style changes and informs his characterization really well through the run of the show, for instance.

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  • The duel in A New Hope really captures the élan of a confrontation between an elderly thespian with extreme contempt for the movie production he is begrudingly a part of and a hungry young actor with a bucket on his head

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    The lightsaber fights work best when they’re eye candy to supplement the emotional or character stuff that’s driving the conflict. RotJ’s climactic fight had relatively little saber on saber contact compared to the verbal interaction between Vader and Luke. That Rebels scene was intense but the sabers were lit for all of maybe 15 seconds.

    It’s like in westerns where the quick draw duel is the iconic action, but that duel takes almost no time and it’s all the other stuff that makes those scenes memorable.

    The Rebels duel draws strongly from classic cinematic samurai duels. Focus on the eyes, the stances, the footwork, the building tension... then a few strikes, one swordsman collapses, and it's over.

    Yeah. There’s good YouTube clips of old samurai movies and it’s exactly like that.

    The main thing is that the fight is secondary to the actual conflict of the ideals that the participant represents. The sword/lightsaber/gun fight is the physical representation of who wins, but the really important stuff happens outside the actual fighting.

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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I’ll never stop thinking about how clones were a massive non-issue for basically everyone ever.

    Droids, too. The more complex ones are definitely sentient beings that are owned as property, casually destroyed when (in)convenient, and even more casually memory-wiped when they start displaying too much personality or free will.
    And except for a literal handful of people in-universe (lots more out of, obviously), no one has a problem or even thinks about this.

    Solo sort of makes a thing of it and it's just super weird. Like I don't know how the audience is supposed to feel about it.

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  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    It's a big can of worms and Solo draws attention to it without solving it. "Hey everyone, look at our can of worms! Isn't it fucked up and gross?"

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