The HBO series in no way espouses a great-man theory. In fact, it goes to great lengths to do quite the opposite. Chernobyl exploded because several people acted in accordance with the pressures of the system they worked in, in combination with a design flaw that the system had allowed to exist. The central tension of the final two episodes - nearly half the series - is built around the fact the conditions that enabled the Chernobyl disaster were hardly rare in the Soviet nuclear industry, and that if nothing were to change then it was likely to happen again. The fact that it was Dyatlov in the control room that night giving his unreasonable orders is irrelevant. Dyatlov doesn't matter. It was one man giving the orders because how many control room supervisors can a nuclear power plant have?
I'll grant you the bullet-to-the-head thing.
The rest of this argument, though, is strange and poorly supported. Gessen seems to believe that we are incapable of understanding allegory? That we are unable to see the compromises that any media production must make in what it chooses to show and what it decides must remain unsaid or unseen? We are all toddlers, and now we believe that Jared Harris was actually a nuclear chemist and Paul Ritter irradiated a continent. She is picking at nits to avoid giving the show credit for the ways it was truthful.
Gessen is viewing this through the lens of someone deeply familiar Putin's Russia, and I got the impression that she is more concerned with the cultural impact in Russia, where this is a largely untold story. She isn't presenting an argument, she is providing context. Historical context for viewers, and context on the narrative void this will fill in Russia.
As presented it was fair, but while person can understand allegory and nuance, the masses may not, and this auto tuned version of events could easily be repackaged as propaganda. So much was recontextualized last 5 minutes, even a reasonable intelligent person who didn't see that might have a very different understanding of events. Evil is obvious, mistakes were made, but good ultimately triumphed.
Except there was also no comeuppence for anyone truly responsible, and no happy ending for hundreds of thousands of people who suffered from it and continue to suffer; and the "good" and "evil" characters were all cut from the same cloth.
Dyatlov, Fomin, and Legasov were the same person at different points in their career; as were Bryukhanov, 'Maester Luwin,' and Shcherbina.
You can get all that from it; I did, but you can also NOT get that. Gessen's piece emphasizes these points, and that seems like a good thing.
I havent watched the show yet but (and outsides it scope) but talking with people about it made me curious about what they could or can do about the corium not just at chernobyl but three mile/fukishima.
Turns out not much the three mile is still there and it seems super lucky they didnt have a melt through but thats only groundwater contamination not atmospheric release. Fukishima had a confirmed melt through in unit two and theres some cool haunting video of a robot playing with the corium.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
there's always room for all kinds of critiques it just feels weird because I don't think we're really the people she's concerned about misunderstanding nor are we people that are going to be repeating the incorrect story most likely... I appreciate the input it just felt odd in that it's not how I received the work or how I'm concerned with it being engaged, but it has a place and I wouldn't want to say it shouldn't exist or something. valuable input, undeniably, but that's why I personally reacted negatively off the bat.
The HBO series in no way espouses a great-man theory. In fact, it goes to great lengths to do quite the opposite.
It literally ends with the two (male) protagonists talking to one another where one says to the other, (paraphrased) "They sent a good man." The conversation between Boris and Valery (the scene with the caterpillar) reminded me a lot of the end of Saving Private Ryan where Ryan asks for personal validation from his wife.
Boris may not have been a great hero, but the show definitely ends on a strong individualist note, where three intelligent, courageous people fight the power. It's a very American story.
Note that I'm not levying this as any deep criticism. I love the show. And as others have said, condensing the events down to five episodes means cutting some narrative corners. To make a truly non-individualist, non-Great-Man story, would require something more like The Wire. It would be longer and drier. And no work of historical fiction is going to be perfect, especially one that's trying to piece events together through the haze of Soviet disinformation.
I still think it's a valid perspective to keep in mind just what aspects were altered for the television show.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
there's always room for all kinds of critiques it just feels weird because I don't think we're really the people she's concerned about misunderstanding nor are we people that are going to be repeating the incorrect story most likely... I appreciate the input it just felt odd in that it's not how I received the work or how I'm concerned with it being engaged, but it has a place and I wouldn't want to say it shouldn't exist or something. valuable input, undeniably, but that's why I personally reacted negatively off the bat.
And while it is not great to tell people to look at ancillary materials, there is an entire podcast based around discussing why certain things were fictionalized, the struggles the showrunners had with when and how to change history, and a general overview of why certain creative decisions were made.
I thought he actually committed suicide before the trial
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
The HBO series in no way espouses a great-man theory. In fact, it goes to great lengths to do quite the opposite.
It literally ends with the two (male) protagonists talking to one another where one says to the other, (paraphrased) "They sent a good man." The conversation between Boris and Valery (the scene with the caterpillar) reminded me a lot of the end of Saving Private Ryan where Ryan asks for personal validation from his wife.
Boris may not have been a great hero, but the show definitely ends on a strong individualist note, where three intelligent, courageous people fight the power. It's a very American story.
Note that I'm not levying this as any deep criticism. I love the show. And as others have said, condensing the events down to five episodes means cutting some narrative corners. To make a truly non-individualist, non-Great-Man story, would require something more like The Wire. It would be longer and drier. And no work of historical fiction is going to be perfect, especially one that's trying to piece events together through the haze of Soviet disinformation.
I still think it's a valid perspective to keep in mind just what aspects were altered for the television show.
That's fair. I suppose I was responding strongly to Gessen's assertion that Dyatlov is an example of great-man theory, which is not well supported.
Regardless of the historical accuracy of the trial segment, I thought it was amazingly effective as a device to present the minute by minute, or second by second in some cases, accounting of what led to the explosion. The explanation provided was, for a subject that can certainly be arcane, remarkably clear. I really think the show deserves a lot of credit for accomplishing that within the context of a dramatic narrative.
Yes but why is tipping the control rods with graphite cheaper?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Russia is making their own Chernobyl series in response to the one made in the west
Part of this crusade is a Russia-produced series from the country’s NTV channel. Directed by filmmaker Alexei Muradov, their project will focus not on the aftermath of the explosion, but instead on what Shepelin calls a “conspiracy theory” that inserts American spies into the narrative.
Of his story, Muradov says, “One theory holds that Americans had infiltrated the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and many historians do not deny that, on the day of the explosion, an agent of the enemy’s intelligence services was present at the station.” The heroes, then, will not be the scientists, soldiers, and civilians who helped prevent a further spread of radiation, but rather the KGB officers trying to thwart these CIA operatives
I don't know if the graphite-tipped rods were cheaper to construct than non-graphite tipped rods
However, they allowed the RBMK reactor to use less-enriched fuel. The first RBMK reactors was originally designed to use natural, unenriched uranium; by the time they were shut down Chernobyl happened at least some of them were using low-enrichment uranium.
Edit: some of first RBMK reactors are still running, after being retrofitted with additional safety features.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I don't know if the graphite-tipped rods were cheaper to construct than non-graphite tipped rods
However, they allowed the RBMK reactor to use less-enriched fuel. The first RBMK reactors was originally designed to use natural, unenriched uranium; by the time they were shut down Chernobyl happened at least some of them were using low-enrichment uranium.
Edit: some of first RBMK reactors are still running, after being retrofitted with additional safety features.
I wonder if that's part of the compromise that allowed them to be used to produce military fissile material?
Russia is making their own Chernobyl series in response to the one made in the west
Part of this crusade is a Russia-produced series from the country’s NTV channel. Directed by filmmaker Alexei Muradov, their project will focus not on the aftermath of the explosion, but instead on what Shepelin calls a “conspiracy theory” that inserts American spies into the narrative.
Of his story, Muradov says, “One theory holds that Americans had infiltrated the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and many historians do not deny that, on the day of the explosion, an agent of the enemy’s intelligence services was present at the station.” The heroes, then, will not be the scientists, soldiers, and civilians who helped prevent a further spread of radiation, but rather the KGB officers trying to thwart these CIA operatives
.
Um, hrm. Doesn’t that version of the story still make the Soviet government look like a bunch of idiots?
We accidently killed 50+ people and irradiated hundreds of thousands of others by fucking up a routine test.
Vs
Our security and intelligence agencies are such massive shit that a foreign spy infiltrated a government operated nuclear power plant and blew it up, and successfully diverted the blame to such a great extent that no one found out for 30 years.
Russia is making their own Chernobyl series in response to the one made in the west
Part of this crusade is a Russia-produced series from the country’s NTV channel. Directed by filmmaker Alexei Muradov, their project will focus not on the aftermath of the explosion, but instead on what Shepelin calls a “conspiracy theory” that inserts American spies into the narrative.
Of his story, Muradov says, “One theory holds that Americans had infiltrated the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and many historians do not deny that, on the day of the explosion, an agent of the enemy’s intelligence services was present at the station.” The heroes, then, will not be the scientists, soldiers, and civilians who helped prevent a further spread of radiation, but rather the KGB officers trying to thwart these CIA operatives
.
Um, hrm. Doesn’t that version of the story still make the Soviet government look like a bunch of idiots?
We accidently killed 50+ people and irradiated hundreds of thousands of others by fucking up a routine test.
Vs
Our security and intelligence agencies are such massive shit that a foreign spy infiltrated a government operated nuclear power plant and blew it up, and successfully diverted the blame to such a great extent that no one found out for 30 years.
That can be spun around as simply as security is always vulnerable and it's only a matter of time before an intrusion is successful. Counterintelligence is just as much about response to an opponent's operation as it is about preventative security. And I think even for most creators it would be difficult to make an exciting narrative out of endless CI briefings, CI and lifestyle polys, two CI officers sitting in a car surveilling an employee for three days and filling their car up with pee bottles and empty coffee cups etc.
I finished tonight. It was an excellent show. Even with the quibbles I see in the thread I still think the theme of lies and the state/party overall still stuck through. It wasn't an anti-nuclear polemic. And in many ways the real heroes to me were not the main characters but Soviet people especially in episode 4 the clean up.
The sound of the dosimeter is always unsettling, but holy shit was it unbearable when the 3 volunteers were sloshing around in the water. I'd have either ran in terror or smashed that thing into a billion pieces. No way could I stand that in person.
The sound of the dosimeter is always unsettling, but holy shit was it unbearable when the 3 volunteers were sloshing around in the water. I'd have either ran in terror or smashed that thing into a billion pieces. No way could I stand that in person.
Heck, when veritasium visited, it gave me palpitations.
The sound of the dosimeter is always unsettling, but holy shit was it unbearable when the 3 volunteers were sloshing around in the water. I'd have either ran in terror or smashed that thing into a billion pieces. No way could I stand that in person.
Heck, when veritasium visited, it gave me palpitations.
The first thing to understand about the HBO mini-series “Chernobyl,” which concludes its five-part run on Monday, is that a lot of it is made up. But here’s the second, and more important, thing: It doesn’t really matter.
This article I linked is hot garbage. The author doesn't know what he's talking about. But he claims to be a "science writer", so that's as expected, I guess.
Don’t get me started about that blue light from the exposed reactor shining high into the night sky in the first episode. Yes, nuclear reactors can produce a blue hue, from something called Cherenkov radiation, but no, there’s no way Unit 4 would have looked like the “Tribute in Light” in Lower Manhattan on the anniversary of Sept. 11.
One such survivor, Alexander Yuvchenko, recounts that once he stepped outside and looked up towards the reactor hall, he saw a "very beautiful" laser-like beam of light bluish light caused by the ionization of air that appeared to "flood up into infinity".
There has to be a middle ground between "build everything exactly to this spec, if you so much as alter one millimeter of anything then the entire project has to be reassessed from soup to nuts" vs "loosening 97 tendons is too expensive, let's send the cheapest bidder in to loosen half of them."
I don't have a comprehensive answer to that conundrum.
Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated over and over again, companies don't really give a shit about safety, and if you give them an inch they'll take a mile.
Finished the series last night. Super well done, probably one of my favorite pieces of media for a couple years. Yes, there are some historical inaccuracies, but this is a dramatization, not a Ken Burns documentary. They created an engaging story while nailing the fundamentals of the event and the lessons to take away.
It did make me sigh, though, that one of the people that I was watching the series with seemed ready to lead a protest march down to the local nuclear power plant after the credits. Not...exactly the message to take away...
The last episode was the best episode, and frankly I wish it was the only episode.
In the finale it's just brutally laying out point by point how an ambitious bureaucrat violated every rule, overruled every engineer and even then would have avoided catastrophe if not for the KGB censoring critical information on their reactor flaws. It shows how wildly skewed towards corruption the system had to be before there was a risk of failure, and it took active intervention by the state secret police to push that risk over the brink into disaster.
This episode shows how safe nuclear power is, while other episodes are gory demonstrations of how dangerous radiation is. And sure, I'd love people with less of a physics background to get a sense of what incredible power we've mastered, but I get the sense that for many it will only stoke their irrational fears.
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Tynnanseldom correct, never unsureRegistered Userregular
The first thing to understand about the HBO mini-series “Chernobyl,” which concludes its five-part run on Monday, is that a lot of it is made up. But here’s the second, and more important, thing: It doesn’t really matter.
This article I linked is hot garbage. The author doesn't know what he's talking about. But he claims to be a "science writer", so that's as expected, I guess.
Don’t get me started about that blue light from the exposed reactor shining high into the night sky in the first episode. Yes, nuclear reactors can produce a blue hue, from something called Cherenkov radiation, but no, there’s no way Unit 4 would have looked like the “Tribute in Light” in Lower Manhattan on the anniversary of Sept. 11.
One such survivor, Alexander Yuvchenko, recounts that once he stepped outside and looked up towards the reactor hall, he saw a "very beautiful" laser-like beam of light bluish light caused by the ionization of air that appeared to "flood up into infinity".
In the podcast, Mazin mentions that Cherenkov line as being there because it was part of the plant supervisors' denialism that something terribly wrong had occurred. (Cherenkov is normal! It doesn't need much radiation! Of course that's what it is, stop worrying about it!) When in reality the blue beam did exist and was caused by the intense radiation from the exposed core ionizing the atmosphere above it - nothing to do with Cherenkov at all.
The biggest flaw in the series was how it portrayed the effects of radiation, which was half accurate and half:
The 3 people who released the water from the valve survived, though one died in 2005 of a heart attack
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
Increases in birth defects as a result of Chernobyl haven't been clear cut
The show does adequately capture the fear and caution of any responsible scientist in an unknown and potentially dangerous situation, but some of the objective facts presented may give a false impression of the properties of radiation
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The biggest flaw in the series was how it portrayed the effects of radiation, which was half accurate and half:
The 3 people who released the water from the valve survived, though one died in 2005 of a heart attack
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
Increases in birth defects as a result of Chernobyl haven't been clear cut
The show does adequately capture the fear and caution of any responsible scientist in an unknown and potentially dangerous situation, but some of the objective facts presented may give a false impression of the properties of radiation
There’s a lot we don’t understand about radiation still, and it’s difficult even with things like cancer and birth defects to separate out things that were caused by radiation and things that would have happened anyway (and some toxicity and teratogenic effects come from the chemical properties of the contaminants themselves and not necessarily the radioactive properties, which muddies the water further).
There’s a lot of evidence that pure radiation in small to moderate doseages or short term exposure to high doses may not be as dangerous as previously thought, and victims of incidents like chernobyl have typically done better over the long term than expected.
That being said, you don’t really want to downplay risk either. I am fine with showing some things in the context of expectations and practices of the time.
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
The first thing to understand about the HBO mini-series “Chernobyl,” which concludes its five-part run on Monday, is that a lot of it is made up. But here’s the second, and more important, thing: It doesn’t really matter.
This article I linked is hot garbage. The author doesn't know what he's talking about. But he claims to be a "science writer", so that's as expected, I guess.
Don’t get me started about that blue light from the exposed reactor shining high into the night sky in the first episode. Yes, nuclear reactors can produce a blue hue, from something called Cherenkov radiation, but no, there’s no way Unit 4 would have looked like the “Tribute in Light” in Lower Manhattan on the anniversary of Sept. 11.
One such survivor, Alexander Yuvchenko, recounts that once he stepped outside and looked up towards the reactor hall, he saw a "very beautiful" laser-like beam of light bluish light caused by the ionization of air that appeared to "flood up into infinity".
In the podcast, Mazin mentions that Cherenkov line as being there because it was part of the plant supervisors' denialism that something terribly wrong had occurred. (Cherenkov is normal! It doesn't need much radiation! Of course that's what it is, stop worrying about it!) When in reality the blue beam did exist and was caused by the intense radiation from the exposed core ionizing the atmosphere above it - nothing to do with Cherenkov at all.
Yeah there’s pretty much no way (reasonably) to create Cherenkov radiation in air
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
The radioactive fallout is internal, in the lungs, where the absence of a protective skin barrier results in continuous damage from ionizing radiation within the body. However, the body acts as its own radiation shield, dampening the emitted radiation from inhaled specks of dust to inconsequential levels to those adjacent to them - once they've been externally cleaned. The issue is inhaling the actual particles not well embedded inside a person in a place close to your vital organs.
It is far more likely that the wife got contaminated from another source, like going outside. The panic is authentic, the science is not.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
The radioactive fallout is internal, in the lungs, where the absence of a protective skin barrier results in continuous damage from ionizing radiation within the body. However, the body acts as its own radiation shield, dampening the emitted radiation from inhaled specks of dust to inconsequential levels to those adjacent to them - once they've been externally cleaned. The issue is inhaling the actual particles not well embedded inside a person in a place close to your vital organs.
It is far more likely that the wife got contaminated from another source, like going outside. The panic is authentic, the science is not.
Not necessarily the case - different isotopes have different elimination pathways and can cause (generally mild) contamination even if externally cleaned. Also, gamma radiation is not shielded fully by the human body
Generally, I agree it’s mostly inconsequential. But I’m also not positive what kind of uptake these firefighters had
y2jake215 on
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
Hm. I’m not sure if the science with regard to radionuclides, but I recall that a fetus can bioconcentrate toxins/drugs from the mother in some cases.
I am aware that small molecule drugs are different in kind from isolated radionuclides.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
Hm. I’m not sure if the science with regard to radionuclides, but I recall that a fetus can bioconcentrate toxins/drugs from the mother in some cases.
I am aware that small molecule drugs are different in kind from isolated radionuclides.
It can - but the (deconned) firefighter wouldn’t be exposing the mother or fetus to contamination, just radiation, which cant be “absorbed”. Like Paladin said, the most likely explanation is the mother absorbed a bunch of radioactive material just being in Pripyat, nothing to do with her husband
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
Hm. I’m not sure if the science with regard to radionuclides, but I recall that a fetus can bioconcentrate toxins/drugs from the mother in some cases.
I am aware that small molecule drugs are different in kind from isolated radionuclides.
It can - but the (deconned) firefighter wouldn’t be exposing the mother or fetus to contamination, just radiation, which cant be “absorbed”. Like Paladin said, the most likely explanation is the mother absorbed a bunch of radioactive material just being in Pripyat, nothing to do with her husband
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
Hm. I’m not sure if the science with regard to radionuclides, but I recall that a fetus can bioconcentrate toxins/drugs from the mother in some cases.
I am aware that small molecule drugs are different in kind from isolated radionuclides.
It can - but the (deconned) firefighter wouldn’t be exposing the mother or fetus to contamination, just radiation, which cant be “absorbed”. Like Paladin said, the most likely explanation is the mother absorbed a bunch of radioactive material just being in Pripyat, nothing to do with her husband
Or that the decon procedure wasn't adequate. Say he was coughing up dust with radioactive particles in it. Or his skin absorbed something that converted a skin atom to a beta emitter. Or..
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
Hm. I’m not sure if the science with regard to radionuclides, but I recall that a fetus can bioconcentrate toxins/drugs from the mother in some cases.
I am aware that small molecule drugs are different in kind from isolated radionuclides.
It can - but the (deconned) firefighter wouldn’t be exposing the mother or fetus to contamination, just radiation, which cant be “absorbed”. Like Paladin said, the most likely explanation is the mother absorbed a bunch of radioactive material just being in Pripyat, nothing to do with her husband
Or that the decon procedure wasn't adequate. Say he was coughing up dust with radioactive particles in it. Or his skin absorbed something that converted a skin atom to a beta emitter. Or..
Without getting too much into it - none of that would do it unless they really just didn’t do any decon at all which seems unlikely as they understood their clothes were contaminated
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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Gessen is viewing this through the lens of someone deeply familiar Putin's Russia, and I got the impression that she is more concerned with the cultural impact in Russia, where this is a largely untold story. She isn't presenting an argument, she is providing context. Historical context for viewers, and context on the narrative void this will fill in Russia.
As presented it was fair, but while person can understand allegory and nuance, the masses may not, and this auto tuned version of events could easily be repackaged as propaganda. So much was recontextualized last 5 minutes, even a reasonable intelligent person who didn't see that might have a very different understanding of events. Evil is obvious, mistakes were made, but good ultimately triumphed.
Except there was also no comeuppence for anyone truly responsible, and no happy ending for hundreds of thousands of people who suffered from it and continue to suffer; and the "good" and "evil" characters were all cut from the same cloth.
Dyatlov, Fomin, and Legasov were the same person at different points in their career; as were Bryukhanov, 'Maester Luwin,' and Shcherbina.
You can get all that from it; I did, but you can also NOT get that. Gessen's piece emphasizes these points, and that seems like a good thing.
Turns out not much the three mile is still there and it seems super lucky they didnt have a melt through but thats only groundwater contamination not atmospheric release. Fukishima had a confirmed melt through in unit two and theres some cool haunting video of a robot playing with the corium.
It literally ends with the two (male) protagonists talking to one another where one says to the other, (paraphrased) "They sent a good man." The conversation between Boris and Valery (the scene with the caterpillar) reminded me a lot of the end of Saving Private Ryan where Ryan asks for personal validation from his wife.
Boris may not have been a great hero, but the show definitely ends on a strong individualist note, where three intelligent, courageous people fight the power. It's a very American story.
Note that I'm not levying this as any deep criticism. I love the show. And as others have said, condensing the events down to five episodes means cutting some narrative corners. To make a truly non-individualist, non-Great-Man story, would require something more like The Wire. It would be longer and drier. And no work of historical fiction is going to be perfect, especially one that's trying to piece events together through the haze of Soviet disinformation.
I still think it's a valid perspective to keep in mind just what aspects were altered for the television show.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And while it is not great to tell people to look at ancillary materials, there is an entire podcast based around discussing why certain things were fictionalized, the struggles the showrunners had with when and how to change history, and a general overview of why certain creative decisions were made.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That's fair. I suppose I was responding strongly to Gessen's assertion that Dyatlov is an example of great-man theory, which is not well supported.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
.
However, they allowed the RBMK reactor to use less-enriched fuel. The first RBMK reactors was originally designed to use natural, unenriched uranium; by the time they were shut down Chernobyl happened at least some of them were using low-enrichment uranium.
Edit: some of first RBMK reactors are still running, after being retrofitted with additional safety features.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I wonder if that's part of the compromise that allowed them to be used to produce military fissile material?
Um, hrm. Doesn’t that version of the story still make the Soviet government look like a bunch of idiots?
We accidently killed 50+ people and irradiated hundreds of thousands of others by fucking up a routine test.
Vs
Our security and intelligence agencies are such massive shit that a foreign spy infiltrated a government operated nuclear power plant and blew it up, and successfully diverted the blame to such a great extent that no one found out for 30 years.
That can be spun around as simply as security is always vulnerable and it's only a matter of time before an intrusion is successful. Counterintelligence is just as much about response to an opponent's operation as it is about preventative security. And I think even for most creators it would be difficult to make an exciting narrative out of endless CI briefings, CI and lifestyle polys, two CI officers sitting in a car surveilling an employee for three days and filling their car up with pee bottles and empty coffee cups etc.
Fuck this was a good show.
Heck, when veritasium visited, it gave me palpitations.
For anyone who was curious like me
This article I linked is hot garbage. The author doesn't know what he's talking about. But he claims to be a "science writer", so that's as expected, I guess.
Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated over and over again, companies don't really give a shit about safety, and if you give them an inch they'll take a mile.
Finished the series last night. Super well done, probably one of my favorite pieces of media for a couple years. Yes, there are some historical inaccuracies, but this is a dramatization, not a Ken Burns documentary. They created an engaging story while nailing the fundamentals of the event and the lessons to take away.
It did make me sigh, though, that one of the people that I was watching the series with seemed ready to lead a protest march down to the local nuclear power plant after the credits. Not...exactly the message to take away...
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
In the finale it's just brutally laying out point by point how an ambitious bureaucrat violated every rule, overruled every engineer and even then would have avoided catastrophe if not for the KGB censoring critical information on their reactor flaws. It shows how wildly skewed towards corruption the system had to be before there was a risk of failure, and it took active intervention by the state secret police to push that risk over the brink into disaster.
This episode shows how safe nuclear power is, while other episodes are gory demonstrations of how dangerous radiation is. And sure, I'd love people with less of a physics background to get a sense of what incredible power we've mastered, but I get the sense that for many it will only stoke their irrational fears.
In the podcast, Mazin mentions that Cherenkov line as being there because it was part of the plant supervisors' denialism that something terribly wrong had occurred. (Cherenkov is normal! It doesn't need much radiation! Of course that's what it is, stop worrying about it!) When in reality the blue beam did exist and was caused by the intense radiation from the exposed core ionizing the atmosphere above it - nothing to do with Cherenkov at all.
The 3 people who released the water from the valve survived, though one died in 2005 of a heart attack
People dying of radiation sickness aren't themselves radioactive after they take a shower, so being pregnant around them will not irradiate the fetus.
Increases in birth defects as a result of Chernobyl haven't been clear cut
The show does adequately capture the fear and caution of any responsible scientist in an unknown and potentially dangerous situation, but some of the objective facts presented may give a false impression of the properties of radiation
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The stories they were working with were what the actual people said in interviews. A lot of folks just had no idea what they were dealing with.
The woman did lose her baby a few months later. And the folks at the hospital treated the men how they did.
Because in reality, a lot of folks just figure its all black magic and weren't really trained to deal with it.
There’s a lot we don’t understand about radiation still, and it’s difficult even with things like cancer and birth defects to separate out things that were caused by radiation and things that would have happened anyway (and some toxicity and teratogenic effects come from the chemical properties of the contaminants themselves and not necessarily the radioactive properties, which muddies the water further).
There’s a lot of evidence that pure radiation in small to moderate doseages or short term exposure to high doses may not be as dangerous as previously thought, and victims of incidents like chernobyl have typically done better over the long term than expected.
That being said, you don’t really want to downplay risk either. I am fine with showing some things in the context of expectations and practices of the time.
pretty sure they are. They weren't just exposed to ionizing radiation they absorbed a lot of radioactive particles which are really difficult to get out of the body.
They said the baby “absorbed all the radiation” which doesn’t make any sense in that context
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Yeah there’s pretty much no way (reasonably) to create Cherenkov radiation in air
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
The radioactive fallout is internal, in the lungs, where the absence of a protective skin barrier results in continuous damage from ionizing radiation within the body. However, the body acts as its own radiation shield, dampening the emitted radiation from inhaled specks of dust to inconsequential levels to those adjacent to them - once they've been externally cleaned. The issue is inhaling the actual particles not well embedded inside a person in a place close to your vital organs.
It is far more likely that the wife got contaminated from another source, like going outside. The panic is authentic, the science is not.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Not necessarily the case - different isotopes have different elimination pathways and can cause (generally mild) contamination even if externally cleaned. Also, gamma radiation is not shielded fully by the human body
Generally, I agree it’s mostly inconsequential. But I’m also not positive what kind of uptake these firefighters had
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Hm. I’m not sure if the science with regard to radionuclides, but I recall that a fetus can bioconcentrate toxins/drugs from the mother in some cases.
I am aware that small molecule drugs are different in kind from isolated radionuclides.
It can - but the (deconned) firefighter wouldn’t be exposing the mother or fetus to contamination, just radiation, which cant be “absorbed”. Like Paladin said, the most likely explanation is the mother absorbed a bunch of radioactive material just being in Pripyat, nothing to do with her husband
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Oh, I see. Yeah. Good point.
Or that the decon procedure wasn't adequate. Say he was coughing up dust with radioactive particles in it. Or his skin absorbed something that converted a skin atom to a beta emitter. Or..
Without getting too much into it - none of that would do it unless they really just didn’t do any decon at all which seems unlikely as they understood their clothes were contaminated
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here