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[nba] franken-warriors rise as curse of the brook settles over lakers

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Posts

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    I am less sympathetic of Harden showing up overweight and intentionally playing at a replacement level to force his way out of Houston. The Rockets pulled out all matter of stops to be competitive when he was there and this was during a time a lot of GMs were genuinely waiting out the Warriors because they were so stacked. Replacing Chris Paul with Westbrook was Harden's idea because he didn't like Paul but Houston did it anyway to keep him happy despite Paul being the superior player even then.

    I think Harden being "overweight" is overblown and is based on people on the internet looking at him in baggy warmup clothes and assuming he's fat based on his body type. There are plenty of concurrent photos of Harden without his shirt showing a six pack.

    You also seem to be basing your assessment of the Rockets based on Daryl Morey's tenure (the guy who is Harden's boss on the 76ers now). It's worth noting that Tillman Fertitta bought the Rockets in 2017, and was reportedly the driving force behind the Westbrook-for-Paul trade based largely on his perception that the contract was "bad". He also continued to drive down the Rockets' payroll to avoid the luxury tax (and then kept driving it down), refused to re-sign Trevor Ariza (and Luc Mbah a Moute, and probably others I'm forgetting) to cheap/reasonable deals, and drove both D'antoni and Morey from the team. The same roster, coach, and GM who pursued the vaunted "trying to be competitive with the Warriors" strategy you are proclaiming.

    Once all that happened, Harden saw the writing on the wall and forced his way out because the team was trash without him. Especially after they traded the corpse of Westbrook for the flayed corpse of John Wall.

    Like, Harden isn't perfect. He probably could take better care of himself by not going to strip clubs and partying constantly. And, like many notable players, he's probably not the best judge of talent or roster construction. But he is a known gym rat and very clearly puts in the work both in practice and games, and reports of him being "out of shape" are internet memes and not backed by serious reporting. I don't blame him for wanting to leave after seeing the entire organization crumble around him due to a new, cheap owner. Should he have stuck around and played his hardest regardless? Maybe. But one could argue that Fertitta should've done more than pay the absolute bare minimum to maintain the franchise, too. He seems content to just float on NBA franchise asset appreciation over time rather than any meaningful attempt to compete. So, if you want a replacement-level organization, you get replacement-level players.

    qwer12
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited July 12
    So we’re talking supermax here, there’s tons of dudes on “max” contracts, meaning the maximum they could get based on their years and personal awards, but only a handful of guys who are supermax

    For example Marcus Smart is supermax eligible (dpoy) and Jayson Tatum is not wait no Tatum would be eligible for a rookie scale max (not super) EXCEPT his extension year was last year and he didn’t make all-nba in 2021 (he made it in 2020 and 2022) and thus was extended on a non-max

    Captain Inertia on
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    I am less sympathetic of Harden showing up overweight and intentionally playing at a replacement level to force his way out of Houston. The Rockets pulled out all matter of stops to be competitive when he was there and this was during a time a lot of GMs were genuinely waiting out the Warriors because they were so stacked. Replacing Chris Paul with Westbrook was Harden's idea because he didn't like Paul but Houston did it anyway to keep him happy despite Paul being the superior player even then.

    I think Harden being "overweight" is overblown and is based on people on the internet looking at him in baggy warmup clothes and assuming he's fat based on his body type. There are plenty of concurrent photos of Harden without his shirt showing a six pack.

    You also seem to be basing your assessment of the Rockets based on Daryl Morey's tenure (the guy who is Harden's boss on the 76ers now). It's worth noting that Tillman Fertitta bought the Rockets in 2017, and was reportedly the driving force behind the Westbrook-for-Paul trade based largely on his perception that the contract was "bad". He also continued to drive down the Rockets' payroll to avoid the luxury tax (and then kept driving it down), refused to re-sign Trevor Ariza (and Luc Mbah a Moute, and probably others I'm forgetting) to cheap/reasonable deals, and drove both D'antoni and Morey from the team. The same roster, coach, and GM who pursued the vaunted "trying to be competitive with the Warriors" strategy you are proclaiming.

    Once all that happened, Harden saw the writing on the wall and forced his way out because the team was trash without him. Especially after they traded the corpse of Westbrook for the flayed corpse of John Wall.

    Like, Harden isn't perfect. He probably could take better care of himself by not going to strip clubs and partying constantly. And, like many notable players, he's probably not the best judge of talent or roster construction. But he is a known gym rat and very clearly puts in the work both in practice and games, and reports of him being "out of shape" are internet memes and not backed by serious reporting. I don't blame him for wanting to leave after seeing the entire organization crumble around him due to a new, cheap owner. Should he have stuck around and played his hardest regardless? Maybe. But one could argue that Fertitta should've done more than pay the absolute bare minimum to maintain the franchise, too. He seems content to just float on NBA franchise asset appreciation over time rather than any meaningful attempt to compete. So, if you want a replacement-level organization, you get replacement-level players.

    My comments on Harden's body are much more about how for consecutive seasons he started out very slow because he was playing himself into shape. He's not the only player that does it but I stand by my assertion. Rockets did tank hard that year but I still think the way Harden handled it was unprofessional. I also remember the Paul contract being viewed very negatively, but I also have read a fair amount of media claims that Harden did not care for Paul. That's not a shocker as Paul apparently is not easy to deal with, but he was awesome for them when he played and he was their best chance at a championship.

    Finally, I rely heavily on Zach Lowe's more recent analysis of Harden's "crunch time" minutes and the result of his analysis was not flattering. His career playoff resume is pretty underwhelming and there are a staggering amount of awful second-half performances for a former league MVP.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • burboburbo Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    I am less sympathetic of Harden showing up overweight and intentionally playing at a replacement level to force his way out of Houston. The Rockets pulled out all matter of stops to be competitive when he was there and this was during a time a lot of GMs were genuinely waiting out the Warriors because they were so stacked. Replacing Chris Paul with Westbrook was Harden's idea because he didn't like Paul but Houston did it anyway to keep him happy despite Paul being the superior player even then.

    I think Harden being "overweight" is overblown and is based on people on the internet looking at him in baggy warmup clothes and assuming he's fat based on his body type. There are plenty of concurrent photos of Harden without his shirt showing a six pack.

    You also seem to be basing your assessment of the Rockets based on Daryl Morey's tenure (the guy who is Harden's boss on the 76ers now). It's worth noting that Tillman Fertitta bought the Rockets in 2017, and was reportedly the driving force behind the Westbrook-for-Paul trade based largely on his perception that the contract was "bad". He also continued to drive down the Rockets' payroll to avoid the luxury tax (and then kept driving it down), refused to re-sign Trevor Ariza (and Luc Mbah a Moute, and probably others I'm forgetting) to cheap/reasonable deals, and drove both D'antoni and Morey from the team. The same roster, coach, and GM who pursued the vaunted "trying to be competitive with the Warriors" strategy you are proclaiming.

    Once all that happened, Harden saw the writing on the wall and forced his way out because the team was trash without him. Especially after they traded the corpse of Westbrook for the flayed corpse of John Wall.

    Like, Harden isn't perfect. He probably could take better care of himself by not going to strip clubs and partying constantly. And, like many notable players, he's probably not the best judge of talent or roster construction. But he is a known gym rat and very clearly puts in the work both in practice and games, and reports of him being "out of shape" are internet memes and not backed by serious reporting. I don't blame him for wanting to leave after seeing the entire organization crumble around him due to a new, cheap owner. Should he have stuck around and played his hardest regardless? Maybe. But one could argue that Fertitta should've done more than pay the absolute bare minimum to maintain the franchise, too. He seems content to just float on NBA franchise asset appreciation over time rather than any meaningful attempt to compete. So, if you want a replacement-level organization, you get replacement-level players.

    This is honestly probably the most persuasive defense of Harden that Ive seen. It almost makes me like him.

    And then i remember what watching him in the playoffs is like and im all "nah, im good".

    Preacher
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Don't get me wrong, I hate his actual style of play. But it took his particular genius and set of skills - and the hard work to develop those skills - to take advantage of the rules in the first place. If it was easy, everyone else would do it, and pretty much no one else can. It's also fair to say that if the league didn't want him to do it, they could very easily get him to stop by changing the rules (or simply not calling the fouls), and yet they don't.

    burboFiatilMagell
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    Knight_ wrote: »
    harden is legit the second best point guard in the league right now, his vision and ball handling is ridiculously good.

    the sixers were shooting almost 10% better from 3 when he's on the court. i cannot stress enough how mediocre players can be and still earn a max, harden would get a max so fast your head would spin.
    lol what

    so you would rather have harden on your team than...
    steph? luka? ja? trae? lamelo? dame?
    i dont even know if he's honestly better than maxey

    i mean, there are two people on that list i'd prefer over harden. one's a combo guard.

    you do the math.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • TelMarineTelMarine Registered User regular
    3ds: 4983-4935-4575
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    This was expected, but it's a strange decision. They traded Sabonis because he and Turner weren't meshing but here they go all in on another offensive-minded center?

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
    Ticaldfjam
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    The suns should embrace being small now
    And definitely not try to go out and get kd

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • TelMarineTelMarine Registered User regular
    3ds: 4983-4935-4575
  • TicaldfjamTicaldfjam Snoqualmie, WARegistered User regular
    edited July 15
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    The suns should embrace being small now
    And definitely not try to go out and get kd

    Dubs should still say fuck KD. They don't need him.

    The have a better chance at a second repeat with Bradley Beal on board versus Mr. "mah Feelings" up in Brooklyn.

    Ticaldfjam on
    Dac
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    The suns should embrace being small now
    And definitely not try to go out and get kd

    Dubs should still say fuck KD. They don't need him.

    The have a better chance at a second repeat with Bradley Beal on board versus Mr. "mah Feelings" up in Brooklyn.

    Bradley Beal? The Bradley Beal that just signed a $251M contract to stay in Washington? He's not going anywhere.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    Ticaldfjam wrote: »
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    The suns should embrace being small now
    And definitely not try to go out and get kd

    Dubs should still say fuck KD. They don't need him.

    The have a better chance at a second repeat with Bradley Beal on board versus Mr. "mah Feelings" up in Brooklyn.

    I don't want kd, I also want him to stay the hell over there in the east preferably on a do nothing team

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    KasynTicaldfjam
  • TelMarineTelMarine Registered User regular
    Burst out laughing when I saw this. Kings on another level of pathetic

    3ds: 4983-4935-4575
    marajiKasynBlackDragon480Ringo
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Mariners drought is longer but it looks like they will finally snap it this year.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • y2jake215y2jake215 certified Flat Birther theorist the Last Good Boy onlineRegistered User regular
    Celtics emerging as a suitor for KD again. I maintain this would be an enormous mistake. I would be extremely mad

    C8Ft8GE.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    edited July 25
    I love that the Gobert trade set the market so ludicrously high that any team would have to blow it up to get KD thus making him not want to go there.

    The longer this all goes on though the odds of Brooklyn remaining intact keep increasing. I can't wait to see how many games KD, Simmons, and Kyrie play together.

    I put the over under at 8.5

    Also KD is on tiktok now, which is critical news I feel like.

    wazilla on
    Psn:wazukki
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure the Nets were asking for an absurd amount in a KD trade before Gobert.

    They were asking the Wolves for something like KAT, Edwards, plus other active players and future picks.

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Durant is stuck, no team can afford him without making it miserable for him to be there. The only team that can afford him and offer him good team mates is Brooklyn.

    I am beginning to think players hate Nash

    MagellTicaldfjam
  • LeeksLeeks Registered User regular
    I mean Kyrie seems like the obvious one to hate there. Unless someone has, or does come out against Nash, I'd assume KD wants to move on because who would want to play with Kyrie being like he is? Combine that with Simmons being a huge question mark at best, of course KD wants out of that.

    Ringo
  • CarpyCarpy Registered User regular
    Leeks wrote: »
    I mean Kyrie seems like the obvious one to hate there. Unless someone has, or does come out against Nash, I'd assume KD wants to move on because who would want to play with Kyrie being like he is? Combine that with Simmons being a huge question mark at best, of course KD wants out of that.

    Apparently KD wants out because Brooklyn didn't extend Kyrie. He wants to play with his friend and the Nets have made it clear that that won't be happening in Brooklyn.

    Kelor
  • LeeksLeeks Registered User regular
    I had not heard that, and it is crazy to me. Your friend already let you know he doesn't care that much about playing period...
    So much for trying to understand anything KD does.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Mariners drought is longer but it looks like they will finally snap it this year.

    Ha man this aged poorly.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
    Captain InertiaButtersTicaldfjamJebus314Ringo
  • TelMarineTelMarine Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Mariners drought is longer but it looks like they will finally snap it this year.

    Ha man this aged poorly.

    Also I looked at their regular season records, they've been at .500 or above for 8 of those seasons. Let's take a look at the Kings the last 16 years...
    2006–07 	NBA 	Western 	11th 	Pacific 	5th 	33 	49 	.402
    2007–08 	NBA 	Western 	11th 	Pacific 	4th 	38 	44 	.463
    2008–09 	NBA 	Western 	15th 	Pacific 	5th 	17 	65 	.207
    2009–10 	NBA 	Western 	14th 	Pacific 	5th 	25 	57 	.305
    2010–11 	NBA 	Western 	14th 	Pacific 	5th 	24 	58 	.293
    2011–12 	NBA 	Western 	14th 	Pacific 	5th 	22 	44 	.333
    2012–13 	NBA 	Western 	13th 	Pacific 	4th 	28 	54 	.341
    2013–14 	NBA 	Western 	13th 	Pacific 	4th 	28 	54 	.341
    2014–15 	NBA 	Western 	13th 	Pacific 	4th 	29 	53 	.354
    2015–16 	NBA 	Western 	10th 	Pacific 	3rd 	33 	49 	.402
    2016–17 	NBA 	Western 	12th 	Pacific 	3rd 	32 	50 	.390
    2017–18 	NBA 	Western 	12th 	Pacific 	4th 	27 	55 	.329	
    2018–19 	NBA 	Western 	9th 	Pacific 	3rd 	39 	43 	.476
    2019–20 	NBA 	Western 	12th 	Pacific 	4th 	31 	41 	.431
    2020–21 	NBA 	Western 	12th 	Pacific 	5th 	31 	41 	.431
    2021–22 	NBA 	Western 	12th 	Pacific 	5th 	30 	52 	.366
    

    Best have been 38 wins and 39 wins

    3ds: 4983-4935-4575
  • KasynKasyn Registered User regular
    Um, NSFW tag please.

    burboTicaldfjamTelMarineLeeksmarajiRedTide
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Marvin Bagley over Luka

    Luka, reigning Euroleague MVP and champion at 17 years old

    He wasn’t like a dude with potential in Europe who only played role minutes like the guys that make dipshit GMs scared to draft them, he was the main guy playing all the minutes and clowning near-NBA talent at 17

    The only way the Kings could top that boner is if they get the top pick this year and don’t use it on Wembanyama

    Inquisitor77BlackDragon480
  • BlackDragon480BlackDragon480 Bluster Kerfuffle Master of Windy ImportRegistered User regular
    Wembanyama

    Gesundheit

    No matter where you go...there you are.
    ~ Buckaroo Banzai
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Marvin Bagley over Luka

    Luka, reigning Euroleague MVP and champion at 17 years old

    He wasn’t like a dude with potential in Europe who only played role minutes like the guys that make dipshit GMs scared to draft them, he was the main guy playing all the minutes and clowning near-NBA talent at 17

    The only way the Kings could top that boner is if they get the top pick this year and don’t use it on Wembanyama

    Yeah, at the time I gave the Hawks a ton of flak for trying to get two-for-one by trading Luka for Trae and first-round draft pick, but that move is actually somewhat defensible.

    Straight up not taking Luka was as idiotic as you could get.

    Captain InertiaMsAnthropyBlackDragon480Knight_
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    luka was like, the most stone cold lock since lebron.

    idk what anyone was doing letting him go past them.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
    BlackDragon480Captain InertiaKasynqwer12
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Overthinking it because, and to be fair, no high-ish lottery pick who was developed in Europe (vs playing college in the US) from like Darko up to Luka had panned out

    All the top European dudes were later picks and either went to good situations (Jokic) or grew 14 inches and 100lbs after being drafted but retained their athleticism (Giannis)

    Not one of those dudes were close to Luka’s level in Europe at the time they were drafted, though, and were all maybe even older than Luka

  • burboburbo Registered User regular
    edited July 26
    I feel like the GMs were overindexing on measurables like vertical and first step, and were underestimating how important it is to just have that feel for the game that Luka has. What they were probably afraid of was that he wouldn't have the tools to get easy shots, and that he would be a volume shooter who hovers around 40% FG% for his career and gets roasted on D.

    burbo on
    Captain Inertiay2jake215
  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    ah so donovan mitchell

    aeNqQM9.jpg
    burboRedTide
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    From what I remember, not a lot of professional scouts got to watch Luka and they also didn't know much about his competition so they were unsure if he was for real or just a YouTube star clowning on inferior athletes.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    From what I remember, not a lot of professional scouts got to watch Luka and they also didn't know much about his competition so they were unsure if he was for real or just a YouTube star clowning on inferior athletes.

    That’s on bad scouting then because I was watching as much Luka as actual NBA highlights during the season before he was drafted

    There was a whole ass “Luka Beat” on Deadspin featuring like a dozen blogs

    And he was starring for Real Madrid, the jewel of European basketball, not like the junior youth development teams like a lot of the other overhyped Euro tall skinny guys

    Porzingas might be who you’re thinking of- he was a teen bench player for a relegation-risk squad in Spain who was on NBA scouts radars because of his skill set vs height (gee)

    The problem for NBA scouts was they fell back on recognizing the wrong pattern (highly hyped euro busts) instead of “why is there 7500 hours of Luka tape vs 75 minutes of e.g. Porzingas tape, I wonder” and recognizing Luka wasn’t potential, he was already a top 25 player in the whole ass world

    burbo
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    I mean, just taking into account his age and his level of competition, if you were going to blindly trust stats on a player then he would be the one to trust. There's not a single player in the NCAA or the D-League that I would consider taking based only on their stats. But a EuroLeague MVP at 19? Sure.

    But yeah, there are these things called cameras and the internet. So if a scout ever claimed they didn't see any tape on Luka then IMHO that's grounds for firing, especially if he was on their beat.

    Captain InertiaBlackDragon480Knight_burboqwer12
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited July 26
    Wembanyama is, funny enough, more in that “potential vs real actual ass currently kicking ass” tier, as he’s not played a lot of impact at the EuroLeague level, and his tape is primarily from U16 and U21 international tournaments against like Chet Holmgren (and because he was a first-team U21 tourney selection at only 17 years old)

    Captain Inertia on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    the mavs had one of the most developed european scouting operations in the early 2010s (which seems weirdly recent but is like a million years ago in international nba terms) and had apparently been onto doncic for a long time

    also (apparently) vlade divac had some kinda beef with doncic's father and that led the kings to not being as interested? That might be BS but it's a fun story

    NREqxl5.jpg
    hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
    that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    I’d believe anything that makes Divac look bad at being GM

    marajiRingoButtersInquisitor77
  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    The Divac-Vivek combo has got to be the worst in the last 30 years.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
    Knight_Captain InertiaTicaldfjam
  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    From what I remember, not a lot of professional scouts got to watch Luka and they also didn't know much about his competition so they were unsure if he was for real or just a YouTube star clowning on inferior athletes.

    I don't think this lines up -- he wasn't drafted in 1997 or 87. Every basketball nerd knew exactly who he was for at least a couple of years prior to him entering the draft, and he played for a very popular European team with relatively easily accessible games for anyone to watch if you were curious enough.

    It was pretty much the standard "well he's a white European guy and typically these mega hyped guys don't stand up to the athleticism of the NBA" deal. But there were plenty of reddit nerds and European NBA players talking about how amazing he was before the draft. I remember Porzingis talking about how impressive he was, and noting that he played in a league thats better overall than the NCAA.

    steam_sig.png
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