Remember when the dude showed us what it was like to pursue triple doubles to the detriment of your team
Especially while seeking that extra rebound
This is easily the most tired and easily disputed argument about Russell Westbrook:
"Westbrook's teams have won 75.1% of the games (136-45) when he records a triple-double."
It was 80+% in OKC. His tenure with the Lakers has been bad. The revisionist history that he was also bad in OKC, Houston, and DC is crazy piling on.
The fit of KD and Westbrook in OKC was not perfect, but the idea that KD dragged him around the court to playoff success is absurd as well. KD's playoff record when Russell was out with an injury (the 2012-2013 playoffs) is 2-6. Before Russ went down against the Rockets, we were up 3-0. We then went 1-2 to close out the series, and lost to Memphis 1-4. If you look outside of that, a whole lot of green Ws:
This is Kevin Durant staring away while Russell drains clutch free throws to win a playoff game in 2014:
Lol I get that saying this in 2022 in a thread full of Warriors fans is blasphemy, but can we focus on the actual negative stuff? His Lakers career has been a disaster and I won't even argue that. But the thing where we go back and act like he's a selfish scrub is hilarious. He's done some dumb shit on the court; in the past it was balanced out and exceeded by brilliance. Not so much anymore. Steven Adams loves Russell Westbrook and is vocal about that whenever he is asked -- these are his career rebounding numbers:
They went down after Westbrook left for Houston (must have been stat padding CP3 stealing them in Steven's last season with OKC), before recovering to tie the career high that he set playing with Russell. In a year that Russ averaged a triple double.
Virtually every teammate Russell has had up until his Lakers career loves him. Victor Oladipo credited watching Russell's work ethic in OKC with his breakout season the following year with the Pacers (before he was injured). KD won an MVP playing next to this "selfish" dude, and Paul George was close to doing the same thing before injuries derailed his campaign. Look at Paul George's comments a few games ago -- he loves Russell!
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
There's a lot to unpack there but not all of those arguments are the same thing.
Russell Westbrook was a great player in his prime, and the idea that OKC would've had more success during the KD-Westbrook-Harden days without him than with him is almost certainly false, as is the idea that KD would do better if he just had the ball in his hands all the time. However, what's not so clear cut is whether or not the team would've done better if Westbrook gave up more possessions and shots to KD and Harden. Or whether they would've done better if he actually moved off the ball, set screens, or played defense. Given how close the team was to winning a championship, it's valid criticism, especially in light of his attitude whenever asked about these kinds of adjustments.
The "OKC wins more when Westbrook gets a triple-double!" argument is correlation, not causation. It's like saying that, "Teams that score first win more!", so you should dedicate all your team's energies towards scoring that very first basket. It's more reasonable that in games where Westbrook gets a triple-double (or the team scores first), they were the better team and were more likely to win the game regardless. I'd also point out that it's not like Westbrook wasn't trying to get triple-doubles in all the other games. He just failed because his team was playing against better opposition.
If you're going to show OKC's record without Westbrook but with Durant, you should show the opposite as well.
OKC still made it to a first-round playoff exit the year after Westbrook left, losing 3-4 instead of 1-4 like they did the year earlier. They also ended 5th instead of 6th (albeit with a worse record). So I'd say swapping Westbrook for CP3 was, all in all, probably a wash in that they got worse offensively but better defensively.
All of these things can be true: (a) Westbrook is a hard worker in practice and in general, (b) Westbrook is a great teammate, (c) Westbrook's actual play on the floor indicates that he doesn't work hard when he doesn't have the ball, including on defense, (d) for all the hard work he did in practice he never seemed to care about or work on his 3-point game, which is his most glaring weakness and is a sustainable skill with age.
To be clear, I'm not a massive hater. I don't go around slamming Westbrook on Twitter (which I don't have). But I do understand why people are feeling a little schadenfreude for what is happening at the end of his career, given his amazing athleticism allowed him to overwhelm obvious flaws in his game which he refused to acknowledge and was kind of a dick about. Which isn't to say that I agree with the people lobbing personal attacks or what-have-you in his general direction. But assholes are assholes the world over.
Do I think it's a bit overblown? Probably. Do I think other players on the Lakers deserve just as, if not more, criticism? Definitely. But do I understand why people are dumping on Westbrook now? Yes.
Yeah, I think the backlash to Westbrook started when he won MVP and then lost in the first round. That same flavor of backlash keeps continuing to this day. Which I still feel the correct answer is "If you don't want MVPs losing in the first round, stop voting for MVPs from 6 seeds!"
So I randomly looked at the NBA standings, and I noticed that the Spurs are doing kind of well, actually. So I looked at their roster, and I have no idea who any of these dudes are. So presumably it's just some early season mirage and they will finish the season near the play-in seeds and not competing for a division title, but it's nice to see them near the top of the standings for now.
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
I'm certainly not a Warriors fan and don't understand why you bring that up, but there aren't really any Lakers fans here so I think that's where the schadenfreude really comes from. We all thought this was a bad fit and were scratching our heads at the decision, and the bunch of amateurs that we are get a little satisfaction watching bad GMs get what's coming to them.
Westbrook plays incredibly selfishly and myopically on offense, has inflated value due to essentially being gifted rebounds during his prime, and has gotten away with pretty much never trying to play defense for his entire career. He doesn't deserve to be shit upon, but it's worth calling out that his last couple of seasons are what you get when a limited player with tremendous athletic gifts refuses to change his game after his athleticism has left him and all his bad habits are coming home to roost.
In many ways Simmons is just an exaggerated version of Westbrook. He's what you get if you replaced Westbrook's bullheadedness with a crippling fear of failure. In both cases, we have two players with amazing physical gifts who are penalized due to the perception that they didn't really try to live up to their full potential.
And the ringless career he's had isn't enough punishment for what are ultimately, offenses entirely related to his game? He needs to be relentlessly blasted by the whole world of NBA media because he's on the Lakers, on a team with LeBron, and in an awkward spot in his career where he needs to transition to a new role? Like he's the first aging star who didn't perfectly adapt his game over time? Like he's the only guy who's ever been overrated at some point?
It's at a level that I think is just really ugly all around and I'd be pleased to see less of it, because we're like half a dozen games into the season and it's already extraordinarily tired.
Im with you on the Westbrook hate. After KD left, Wesbrook was THE MOST fun story in the NBA. The fact that he gives all fucks at all times is endearing. Its fun to see his lack of self awarenesss and ability to change sink the Lakers, but its only really happening like that because most of the other players are bad fits in similar ways that Westbrook is.
Also, if we are going to trash Lakers players for not living up to expectations, i mean, AD is right there. He's even a worse 3 point shooter than Russ!
The bigger question is why is AD even taking 3s. If I'm the defense, anytime he's not in the paint is a huge win.
There's a great clip from the Blazers game where the ball settles with AD in the corner, Nurk takes one step of his rotation, realizes AD is the shooter and stops to rub his nose and then turns his back to look for the rebound. Easily the most disrespectful defending I've seen in a while
So I randomly looked at the NBA standings, and I noticed that the Spurs are doing kind of well, actually. So I looked at their roster, and I have no idea who any of these dudes are. So presumably it's just some early season mirage and they will finish the season near the play-in seeds and not competing for a division title, but it's nice to see them near the top of the standings for now.
Which to me is surprising so far because I thought Popovich and company will pull another tank job to win the Victor sweepstakes like how they got Tim Duncan. But it is very possibly they fade, maybe that's Popovich's plan. Avoid Silver's scrutiny and then pull the tank. The 2011-2012 Warriors started 6-2 but finished 26-56 to keep their pick which was would've went to Toronto (they got lucky and kept it on a coin flip).
3ds: 4983-4935-4575
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
It's pretty hard to just tank for the number one pick with the recent odds changes. Accumulating other picks and swaps is the new hotness.
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
Agree for the most part but I just don't see any use for a non-shooting guard on a LeBron team unless there are plenty of other shooters. Like all the bubble dudes they traded away!
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
Agree for the most part but I just don't see any use for a non-shooting guard on a LeBron team unless there are plenty of other shooters. Like all the bubble dudes they traded away!
Well, and Rondo
And post Finals MVP Rondo’s kid hitting the champagne
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
Both those are failures in the front office though, not Russ problems.
The Lakers can’t afford to go into the tax as hard as GS (like literally, it’s funny that they have one of the least-wealthy owners)
They can’t trade Russ
They can’t tank because they don’t own their pick
Unless Russ accepts a buyout for a fraction of his current deal, the Lakers’ only way out of this is trading AD for picks….and he may not command much anymore
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
Both those are failures in the front office though, not Russ problems.
That’s exactly my point and Butters’s add on to my point and my add-on to his add-on
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
Agree for the most part but I just don't see any use for a non-shooting guard on a LeBron team unless there are plenty of other shooters. Like all the bubble dudes they traded away!
Well, and Rondo
And post Finals MVP Rondo’s kid hitting the champagne
Rondo at least got his three point shooting up to a not-ignorable 33% that year (Russ is shooting 20% right now) and he shot 40% in the 2020 playoffs. He did what Russ isn't doing and actually changed the way he played after his athleticism waned.
It’s a shame it was for performance and the Nets realizing the Celtics would allow Udoka go there and not for his “open to all perspectives” bullshit about Irving’s antisemitism
unbelievable
all Dyson Daniels had to do was make 1 of 2 freethrows to put the pels up 4 with 1.6 seconds left in the game to seal things
obviously this did not happen and some Matt Ryan heroics 1.6 seconds later with a complete pels collapse in overtime and the lakers come away with a second win
AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
He has been suspended, after sending his parents to meet with the ADL in his stead to attempt to buy his way out of the situation, followed up with another completely terrible press conference this morning.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
There's gotta be a way to make money on the fact that Kyrie Irving is a Dumbass, right?
he did actually give a half apology on instagram after they hit his pocketbook, but honestly it's fairly weak given how absolutely fucked everything he's said over the last few weeks is
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
he did actually give a half apology on instagram after they hit his pocketbook, but honestly it's fairly weak given how absolutely fucked everything he's said over the last few weeks is
I can't wait for the next press conference. Can Kyrie Irving, a 30 year-old man, control his dumbassedry enough to just apologize and move on, or will he feel compelled to defend his massive Oxford Dictionary intellect?
I believe Poole referred to Draymond as “triple single”. You know, the kind of things a grown adult punches another one over.
As a MSU grad the culture coming out of the Athletics Department is just the fucking worst. It's not even a southern-style expectation of winningness (and excusal of behavior that comes with that) that I'd imagine Alabama looks like for football, or maybe NC for basketball, but something internal to the programs is just totally fucked, and the people coming out of them reflect that.
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Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
I believe Poole referred to Draymond as “triple single”. You know, the kind of things a grown adult punches another one over.
As a MSU grad the culture coming out of the Athletics Department is just the fucking worst. It's not even a southern-style expectation of winningness (and excusal of behavior that comes with that) that I'd imagine Alabama looks like for football, or maybe NC for basketball, but something internal to the programs is just totally fucked, and the people coming out of them reflect that.
Point of order, Bama has been squeaky clean for a long time- because every player is a future all-pro NFL prospect, nobody is relatively good enough to get special treatment. Additionally, Bama doesn’t need to take a flyer on dude with shitty behavior in HS like Michigan State football does because they don’t content for the top dudes otherwise.
Lots of sexual assault permission at MSU, that’s for sure, though I don’t think that is in any way related to Dray’s personal issues
Aaand KD has finally completely outed himself as a dumbass by saying the Nets should have just ignored all of this and focused on basketball.
Pretty obvious he's been enabling Kyrie the entire time, but nice to have it fully confirmed.
And according to the team statement it seems that they did try to handle the situation quietly and in-house as much as possible.
They were basically forced to make a statement after Kyrie kept ignoring their attempts to get him to realize that he was wrong. And then right after the joint statement and pledge to make a donation, he continued to just make things worse.
Aaand KD has finally completely outed himself as a dumbass by saying the Nets should have just ignored all of this and focused on basketball.
Pretty obvious he's been enabling Kyrie the entire time, but nice to have it fully confirmed.
And according to the team statement it seems that they did try to handle the situation quietly and in-house as much as possible.
They were basically forced to make a statement after Kyrie kept ignoring their attempts to get him to realize that he was wrong. And then right after the joint statement and pledge to make a donation, he continued to just make things worse.
Yeah it was tremendously obvious from the outside that the Nets were trying to be as gentle on Kyrie as possible with this whole thing. They let him play two games, even let him speak to the media before realizing it was a horrible decision....then doing the same thing again.
It's hilarious that he's trying to paint himself as a victim with all of that -- the media was lobbing him eaaasy softballs. The world was largely bending to him to allow him the opportunity to gracefully apologize, but he's such a delusional narcissist he just couldn't do it.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Is there anywhere that has a running breakdown of the whole Kyrie thing?
Kyrie has established himself as a conspiracy theorist in the past as he dabbled in flat earther shit, NWO shit, retweeted Alex Jones content, and refused the COVID-19 vaccine last season. Recently he tweeted a link to a "documentary" called “Hebrews to Negroes: Wake Up Black America" which was chocked full of antisemitic tropes including (but not limited to) actual Nazi propaganda complete with quotes from Hitler saying black people are the original Israelites and Jews were responsible for the slave trade.
He was questioned about it in a press conference and in his defiant response he pretty much told us he spent all his spare time last season (because he couldn't play most games since he was not vaccinated) falling down the YouTube conspiracy radicalization pipeline. The Nets owner, Joe Tsai, started out with a mealy-mouthed response that he would "talk to him about it" as if Kyrie didn't have a long history of being an ignorant dipshit as did the NBA. Enough bad press forced them to try to get him to backtrack it one last time and while he deleted the posts/tweets, he denied any real wrongdoing including a comment like "I didn't make the film" and denied responsibility. Finally after failure to show any contrition for several days, the Nets suspended him. Now he has a fresh apology on social media that no one with a functioning brain takes seriously.
He and the Nets each pledged $500k to the ADL…well the Nets issued a statement that Irving was on board…but at the event to commemorate this, Irving refused to go and sent his dad in his place
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Especially while seeking that extra rebound
This is easily the most tired and easily disputed argument about Russell Westbrook:
"Westbrook's teams have won 75.1% of the games (136-45) when he records a triple-double."
It was 80+% in OKC. His tenure with the Lakers has been bad. The revisionist history that he was also bad in OKC, Houston, and DC is crazy piling on.
The fit of KD and Westbrook in OKC was not perfect, but the idea that KD dragged him around the court to playoff success is absurd as well. KD's playoff record when Russell was out with an injury (the 2012-2013 playoffs) is 2-6. Before Russ went down against the Rockets, we were up 3-0. We then went 1-2 to close out the series, and lost to Memphis 1-4. If you look outside of that, a whole lot of green Ws:
This is Kevin Durant staring away while Russell drains clutch free throws to win a playoff game in 2014:
Lol I get that saying this in 2022 in a thread full of Warriors fans is blasphemy, but can we focus on the actual negative stuff? His Lakers career has been a disaster and I won't even argue that. But the thing where we go back and act like he's a selfish scrub is hilarious. He's done some dumb shit on the court; in the past it was balanced out and exceeded by brilliance. Not so much anymore. Steven Adams loves Russell Westbrook and is vocal about that whenever he is asked -- these are his career rebounding numbers:
They went down after Westbrook left for Houston (must have been stat padding CP3 stealing them in Steven's last season with OKC), before recovering to tie the career high that he set playing with Russell. In a year that Russ averaged a triple double.
Virtually every teammate Russell has had up until his Lakers career loves him. Victor Oladipo credited watching Russell's work ethic in OKC with his breakout season the following year with the Pacers (before he was injured). KD won an MVP playing next to this "selfish" dude, and Paul George was close to doing the same thing before injuries derailed his campaign. Look at Paul George's comments a few games ago -- he loves Russell!
To be clear, I'm not a massive hater. I don't go around slamming Westbrook on Twitter (which I don't have). But I do understand why people are feeling a little schadenfreude for what is happening at the end of his career, given his amazing athleticism allowed him to overwhelm obvious flaws in his game which he refused to acknowledge and was kind of a dick about. Which isn't to say that I agree with the people lobbing personal attacks or what-have-you in his general direction. But assholes are assholes the world over.
Do I think it's a bit overblown? Probably. Do I think other players on the Lakers deserve just as, if not more, criticism? Definitely. But do I understand why people are dumping on Westbrook now? Yes.
The shot went off the top of the backboard
1: His contract
2. What the Lakers gave up to get him
——————
(Keep going)
3. His play
There is no role for him on this Lakers team. He's a primary ball handler that can't shoot which makes him useless when LeBron is on the court.
Which to me is surprising so far because I thought Popovich and company will pull another tank job to win the Victor sweepstakes like how they got Tim Duncan. But it is very possibly they fade, maybe that's Popovich's plan. Avoid Silver's scrutiny and then pull the tank. The 2011-2012 Warriors started 6-2 but finished 26-56 to keep their pick which was would've went to Toronto (they got lucky and kept it on a coin flip).
Which is why his contract and what they gave up for him are the problem- you can’t really stash him in the 2nd unit because getting Russ means they can’t afford much better guys than any of us would do for them
Agree for the most part but I just don't see any use for a non-shooting guard on a LeBron team unless there are plenty of other shooters. Like all the bubble dudes they traded away!
Well, and Rondo
And post Finals MVP Rondo’s kid hitting the champagne
Both those are failures in the front office though, not Russ problems.
They can’t trade Russ
They can’t tank because they don’t own their pick
Unless Russ accepts a buyout for a fraction of his current deal, the Lakers’ only way out of this is trading AD for picks….and he may not command much anymore
That’s exactly my point and Butters’s add on to my point and my add-on to his add-on
Rondo at least got his three point shooting up to a not-ignorable 33% that year (Russ is shooting 20% right now) and he shot 40% in the 2020 playoffs. He did what Russ isn't doing and actually changed the way he played after his athleticism waned.
Good for him, getting away from that garbage fire of a team.
Ime is coming
all Dyson Daniels had to do was make 1 of 2 freethrows to put the pels up 4 with 1.6 seconds left in the game to seal things
obviously this did not happen and some Matt Ryan heroics 1.6 seconds later with a complete pels collapse in overtime and the lakers come away with a second win
He has been suspended, after sending his parents to meet with the ADL in his stead to attempt to buy his way out of the situation, followed up with another completely terrible press conference this morning.
I feel like this is predictable. Like the tides.
Does Vegas offer odds on "Will Kyrie Dumbass?"
I can't wait for the next press conference. Can Kyrie Irving, a 30 year-old man, control his dumbassedry enough to just apologize and move on, or will he feel compelled to defend his massive Oxford Dictionary intellect?
Pretty obvious he's been enabling Kyrie the entire time, but nice to have it fully confirmed.
As a MSU grad the culture coming out of the Athletics Department is just the fucking worst. It's not even a southern-style expectation of winningness (and excusal of behavior that comes with that) that I'd imagine Alabama looks like for football, or maybe NC for basketball, but something internal to the programs is just totally fucked, and the people coming out of them reflect that.
Point of order, Bama has been squeaky clean for a long time- because every player is a future all-pro NFL prospect, nobody is relatively good enough to get special treatment. Additionally, Bama doesn’t need to take a flyer on dude with shitty behavior in HS like Michigan State football does because they don’t content for the top dudes otherwise.
Lots of sexual assault permission at MSU, that’s for sure, though I don’t think that is in any way related to Dray’s personal issues
And according to the team statement it seems that they did try to handle the situation quietly and in-house as much as possible.
They were basically forced to make a statement after Kyrie kept ignoring their attempts to get him to realize that he was wrong. And then right after the joint statement and pledge to make a donation, he continued to just make things worse.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Yeah it was tremendously obvious from the outside that the Nets were trying to be as gentle on Kyrie as possible with this whole thing. They let him play two games, even let him speak to the media before realizing it was a horrible decision....then doing the same thing again.
It's hilarious that he's trying to paint himself as a victim with all of that -- the media was lobbing him eaaasy softballs. The world was largely bending to him to allow him the opportunity to gracefully apologize, but he's such a delusional narcissist he just couldn't do it.
Kyrie has established himself as a conspiracy theorist in the past as he dabbled in flat earther shit, NWO shit, retweeted Alex Jones content, and refused the COVID-19 vaccine last season. Recently he tweeted a link to a "documentary" called “Hebrews to Negroes: Wake Up Black America" which was chocked full of antisemitic tropes including (but not limited to) actual Nazi propaganda complete with quotes from Hitler saying black people are the original Israelites and Jews were responsible for the slave trade.
He was questioned about it in a press conference and in his defiant response he pretty much told us he spent all his spare time last season (because he couldn't play most games since he was not vaccinated) falling down the YouTube conspiracy radicalization pipeline. The Nets owner, Joe Tsai, started out with a mealy-mouthed response that he would "talk to him about it" as if Kyrie didn't have a long history of being an ignorant dipshit as did the NBA. Enough bad press forced them to try to get him to backtrack it one last time and while he deleted the posts/tweets, he denied any real wrongdoing including a comment like "I didn't make the film" and denied responsibility. Finally after failure to show any contrition for several days, the Nets suspended him. Now he has a fresh apology on social media that no one with a functioning brain takes seriously.
I think