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Kids/Parenting: It’s fine, everything is fine.

1235

Posts

  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    I just want to know what the magic sauce is for getting my 8 and 10 year olds to eat some Goddamn food in the morning, so that they aren't absolute demons to everyone.

    Of course it doesn't help that I lack patience so I just say, "you know, you guys are assholes;" and they reply - without blinking; "Dad, you're an asshole, too."

    ...damnit

    Capt HowdyShadowfireElvenshaediscriderlonelyahavaNobeardHappylilElfRiusSanguinius666264JaysonFour
  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Mugsley wrote: »
    I just want to know what the magic sauce is for getting my 8 and 10 year olds to eat some Goddamn food in the morning, so that they aren't absolute demons to everyone.

    Of course it doesn't help that I lack patience so I just say, "you know, you guys are assholes;" and they reply - without blinking; "Dad, you're an asshole, too."

    ...damnit

    Waffles.

    Kids fucking love Waffles. Eat em cold hot whatever.

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
    Elvenshae
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    Choices. Certainly skew the choices in your favor (i.e. "big bag of skittles" is not on the list) but at least illusory choice makes the citizenry more compliant to their overlords kids more cooperative.

    spool32BrodyElvenshaeNobeardElJeffe
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    edited August 12
    Child 1: "I'm not hungry! Harumph!"
    Child 2: "Do you have chicken nuggets? Also I want root beer to drink" [she then proceeds to only drink 2 sips of soda]

    Edit: we are both at fault, but I would tend to push back more than my wife. She just wants to get some sort of food into their stomachs for shipping them off to camp. I'm on my way out the door when the kids are coming downstairs to figure out the food situation.

    Mugsley on
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    edited August 12
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    This is so real.

    Over the 10ish years we were raising small kids (they are all grown now) , you were clearly into infanticide if you let your baby sleep under the following conditions:

    - on their back
    - on their side
    - on their stomach
    - in bed with you
    - on your bed at all
    - on the carpet
    - in a crib
    - in a car seat or swing
    - with crib bumpers
    - without crib bumpers
    - with pillows or soft things
    - with stuffed animals
    - without soft things
    - in silence
    - with ambient sounds
    - on their own
    - with us in the room

    I probably have a lot of advice, and some of it at least is good, and the rest is either dated or not good or situational or confirmation bias. :)

    Here are my top ones though:

    - be consistent. Rock-solid utterly totally unshakably consistent, no exceptions in any cases except where you want your kids to learn that they can get an exception. And hoo boy you had better think about which cases those really are, because once you break the seal on exceptions to a rule, you can basically never go back. If you break too many seals, they just learn that all rules are negotiable and rules lose their power.

    - speaking of negotiation, don't do it. It's so hard to shift your mind to a place where you are In Charge Of Your Kids rather than trying to build consensus like you would with other adults. I see people doing this thing where they go "it's time to get in the car, OK?" with their kids... standard social lubricant consensus-building phrase, except you don't actually care if they think it's OK and their answer doesn't matter because It's Time To Get In The Car is not something they get input on. So in those cases, don't ask - just declare. Be declarative when it's time, no questions no uptalking, and don't negotiate.

    - More broadly, don't ask your kids for their opinion when you don't actually care what they think, or when their opinion is irrelevant. If you ask them if something is OK, ("We're going to put away toys now, OK?" or "Do you want to help clean your mess?" etc) and they say NO, and then you just do the thing anyway... that teaches your kids that their opinion is irrelevant and makes them feel powerless. In those situations, instead
    a) don't ask at all - see above about avoiding consensus-building phrases for non-negotiable situations, or
    b) offer pre-approved options where you're happy with all choices instead, e.g. "Do you want fish or chicken for dinner?", or
    c) be prepared to accept whatever answer you get

    - Following on from that, take some time to think about what you really actually do care about, and start picking battles. Do shirt and socks really need to match? Is a raincoat and silly hat really honestly unacceptable attire for a trip to the store? Probably not. Almost certainly not! So why are you having a fight about changing their clothes before you leave? Ultimately, everybody has their things and the set you really care about is going to be wildly different (I don't like waiting in the car when we arrive at a place, so taking your shoes off during a drive was 100% completely I'll-pull-this-car-over-right-now forbidden, but I bet you don't care at all) and it's worth finding these things out. Draw your lines for the things you actually care about, and screw the rest.


    To summarize:
    - find your true personal red lines
    - stick to your guns about them
    - don't offer choice where none exists
    - don't ask for opinions where they don't matter
    - build space everywhere else for kids to express opinions, be creative, refuse, reject, and participate

    spool32 on
    mrpakukimedavidsdurionsSummaryJudgmentenc0reCapt HowdyShadowfireElvenshaeelectricitylikesmeAridholFuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudSanguinius666264JaysonFourCauldeMoander
  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    How do you guys feel about car seats? My wife still has my 4 year old son in a car seat with straps. My daughter's 6 and moved to the booster seat at around 5. It's so hard to argue against how it's safer but he's kinda feeling like he's a baby still and acting out a lot due to it (plus a 10 month old sister in the house).

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Also, for you two-parent families:

    Taking care of your marriage is taking care of your family. Take it from somebody who just celebrated their 24th anniversary - if you don't care for your marriage first, put your relationship first at least some of the time, things will fall apart. 20 years is a long time to be focused on childrearing and if you didn't care for your marriage over two decades, it won't be there when the kids move out. It just won't.

    If you and your partner are caring for each other, raising the family will be easier and your kids will be more healthy in the longterm. Do not skimp on the marriage! It's OK for your kids to go to bed early because you want to watch a grownup movie with mom. It's OK. They'll be fine. Take care of your marriage! It makes everything better.

    mrpakuElvenshaeDisruptedCapitalistCauld
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    How do you guys feel about car seats? My wife still has my 4 year old son in a car seat with straps. My daughter's 6 and moved to the booster seat at around 5. It's so hard to argue against how it's safer but he's kinda feeling like he's a baby still and acting out a lot due to it (plus a 10 month old sister in the house).

    Externalize the rule, tie it to age, and remind the kids that they aren't the same. Don't compromise on safety, this has got to be one of the non-negotiable things. Let science and safety drive your decision and to hell with his opinion.

    Also though... find some other places where he CAN be big and differentiate himself from the baby. Find a thing he can do to help that the baby can't do, and call that out... "wow, baby sister can't do this at all but you're big enough to help! I need your help!"

    The underlying issue is probably the baby, not the carseat :)

    mrpakukimedavidsdurionsBrodyShadowfireElvenshaeDisruptedCapitalistCauld
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    urahonky wrote: »
    How do you guys feel about car seats? My wife still has my 4 year old son in a car seat with straps. My daughter's 6 and moved to the booster seat at around 5. It's so hard to argue against how it's safer but he's kinda feeling like he's a baby still and acting out a lot due to it (plus a 10 month old sister in the house).

    Externalize the rule, tie it to age, and remind the kids that they aren't the same. Don't compromise on safety, this has got to be one of the non-negotiable things. Let science and safety drive your decision and to hell with his opinion.

    Also though... find some other places where he CAN be big and differentiate himself from the baby. Find a thing he can do to help that the baby can't do, and call that out... "wow, baby sister can't do this at all but you're big enough to help! I need your help!"

    The underlying issue is probably the baby, not the carseat :)

    I've only ever heard consistent above about car seats from professionals, unlike everything else that people here have already mentioned lol. That advice is basically to only move them up to the next "level" when they are too heavy/long for what they are currently in (per manufacturer guidelines).

    This is basically one of those uncompromising safety positions, so yeah I think all of spool's advice could maybe be helpful.

    PA HotS Group
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    Steam profile
    Elvenshae
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    Both our kids are very slight/skinny for their ages. My older daughter is also tall for her age. When both were around 4-5, we moved them to high backed boosters with seatbelts. That, however, was ultimately dictated by whether they were tall enough for the seatbelt to properly cover their shoulder. My younger daughter only graduated from the high-backed to a regular booster last year.

    My wife is also very adamant about the fact they have to pass both the weight and height limits for the various safety seats (and ultimately none at all) before they get to move up.

    Can you possibly use this to motivate him in other areas? "If you do a good job of eating, you'll grow faster and you can use a seatbelt instead!" It ultimately doesn't help the passage of time, but it may deflect the issue a bit.

    spool32Elvenshae
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    I wonder about the car seats thing. I've been trying to find information about who decided the rules on proper car seat installation but haven't had a lot of luck so far. But I read the manual for my car seat and installed it in a way that seemed fine. Took it to one of the safety check places (firehouse I think), where they proceeded to say it wasn't quite right, un-did it, and then redid it exactly the same way. I wish I had marked off where I had the seat belt tightened too, because I swear they didn't even get it as tight.

    But things like which seat are the safest to put it in (rear side vs rear middle), or how many inches it should be able to move laterally when tightened (which of course never comes with the corresponding force to be applied), or the latch system vs seat belt, etc, all of them seem borderline mythos at this point. I'd like to see some crash tests that say serious injury is more likely because of a 3 degree change in seat levelness. Or that activating the locking mechanism on the seat belt does jack shit for a car seat with a friction locking mechanism.

    On a related note, while I know that in general rear seats are safer than front seats for little kids, I'm currently having a debate with the wife about the safety of front seats for very short (<3 mile) trips in residential neighborhoods (<25 mph speed limit). To me anything at that speed is safer then even the best safety car/position/whatever at highway speeds. And damn it, I don't want to have to give up my two seater just to drop the kiddo off at daycare. I'm seriously considering just walking her in the mornings if we don't come to an agreement before we start daycare.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    I wonder about the car seats thing. I've been trying to find information about who decided the rules on proper car seat installation but haven't had a lot of luck so far. But I read the manual for my car seat and installed it in a way that seemed fine. Took it to one of the safety check places (firehouse I think), where they proceeded to say it wasn't quite right, un-did it, and then redid it exactly the same way. I wish I had marked off where I had the seat belt tightened too, because I swear they didn't even get it as tight.

    But things like which seat are the safest to put it in (rear side vs rear middle), or how many inches it should be able to move laterally when tightened (which of course never comes with the corresponding force to be applied), or the latch system vs seat belt, etc, all of them seem borderline mythos at this point. I'd like to see some crash tests that say serious injury is more likely because of a 3 degree change in seat levelness. Or that activating the locking mechanism on the seat belt does jack shit for a car seat with a friction locking mechanism.

    On a related note, while I know that in general rear seats are safer than front seats for little kids, I'm currently having a debate with the wife about the safety of front seats for very short (<3 mile) trips in residential neighborhoods (<25 mph speed limit). To me anything at that speed is safer then even the best safety car/position/whatever at highway speeds. And damn it, I don't want to have to give up my two seater just to drop the kiddo off at daycare. I'm seriously considering just walking her in the mornings if we don't come to an agreement before we start daycare.

    IIRC, you need rear facing for as long as possible because they reduce the chance of spinal cord compression in the event of an accident. Also, having been in an accident at ~25 mph, it still fucking hurts, and I can't imagine it would be any safer for the kid.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
    Shadowfirespool32kimeElvenshaeDisruptedCapitalistCapt Howdy
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    I wonder about the car seats thing. I've been trying to find information about who decided the rules on proper car seat installation but haven't had a lot of luck so far. But I read the manual for my car seat and installed it in a way that seemed fine. Took it to one of the safety check places (firehouse I think), where they proceeded to say it wasn't quite right, un-did it, and then redid it exactly the same way. I wish I had marked off where I had the seat belt tightened too, because I swear they didn't even get it as tight.

    But things like which seat are the safest to put it in (rear side vs rear middle), or how many inches it should be able to move laterally when tightened (which of course never comes with the corresponding force to be applied), or the latch system vs seat belt, etc, all of them seem borderline mythos at this point. I'd like to see some crash tests that say serious injury is more likely because of a 3 degree change in seat levelness. Or that activating the locking mechanism on the seat belt does jack shit for a car seat with a friction locking mechanism.

    On a related note, while I know that in general rear seats are safer than front seats for little kids, I'm currently having a debate with the wife about the safety of front seats for very short (<3 mile) trips in residential neighborhoods (<25 mph speed limit). To me anything at that speed is safer then even the best safety car/position/whatever at highway speeds. And damn it, I don't want to have to give up my two seater just to drop the kiddo off at daycare. I'm seriously considering just walking her in the mornings if we don't come to an agreement before we start daycare.

    IIRC, you need rear facing for as long as possible because they reduce the chance of spinal cord compression in the event of an accident. Also, having been in an accident at ~25 mph, it still fucking hurts, and I can't imagine it would be any safer for the kid.

    Still rear facing, just in a front seat with no airbag instead of in a rear seat.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    Brody wrote: »
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    I wonder about the car seats thing. I've been trying to find information about who decided the rules on proper car seat installation but haven't had a lot of luck so far. But I read the manual for my car seat and installed it in a way that seemed fine. Took it to one of the safety check places (firehouse I think), where they proceeded to say it wasn't quite right, un-did it, and then redid it exactly the same way. I wish I had marked off where I had the seat belt tightened too, because I swear they didn't even get it as tight.

    But things like which seat are the safest to put it in (rear side vs rear middle), or how many inches it should be able to move laterally when tightened (which of course never comes with the corresponding force to be applied), or the latch system vs seat belt, etc, all of them seem borderline mythos at this point. I'd like to see some crash tests that say serious injury is more likely because of a 3 degree change in seat levelness. Or that activating the locking mechanism on the seat belt does jack shit for a car seat with a friction locking mechanism.

    On a related note, while I know that in general rear seats are safer than front seats for little kids, I'm currently having a debate with the wife about the safety of front seats for very short (<3 mile) trips in residential neighborhoods (<25 mph speed limit). To me anything at that speed is safer then even the best safety car/position/whatever at highway speeds. And damn it, I don't want to have to give up my two seater just to drop the kiddo off at daycare. I'm seriously considering just walking her in the mornings if we don't come to an agreement before we start daycare.

    IIRC, you need rear facing for as long as possible because they reduce the chance of spinal cord compression in the event of an accident. Also, having been in an accident at ~25 mph, it still fucking hurts, and I can't imagine it would be any safer for the kid.

    Still rear facing, just in a front seat with no airbag instead of in a rear seat.

    Sounds like its ok as long as the airbag is off.

    https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/106/4/857 You have to scroll down a bit.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
    Elvenshae
  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    edited August 12
    So, the middle rear is safer than the side, because of a side impact collision, like getting T-boned. Of course, if you have two kids, they can't both be in the middle, so...? The anchors are easier to get tighter, so are safer when they are small. But they are only strong enough for so much weight, so after a certain point the belt is needed. I don't remember how heavy.

    One note, is the best way to get a car seat in is to kneel on it while you pull on the strap to tighten. that way you don't have to pull against the springs to try and get it down tight.

    BSoB on

    Mugsley
  • m!ttensm!ttens Registered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    I wonder about the car seats thing. I've been trying to find information about who decided the rules on proper car seat installation but haven't had a lot of luck so far. But I read the manual for my car seat and installed it in a way that seemed fine. Took it to one of the safety check places (firehouse I think), where they proceeded to say it wasn't quite right, un-did it, and then redid it exactly the same way. I wish I had marked off where I had the seat belt tightened too, because I swear they didn't even get it as tight.

    But things like which seat are the safest to put it in (rear side vs rear middle), or how many inches it should be able to move laterally when tightened (which of course never comes with the corresponding force to be applied), or the latch system vs seat belt, etc, all of them seem borderline mythos at this point. I'd like to see some crash tests that say serious injury is more likely because of a 3 degree change in seat levelness. Or that activating the locking mechanism on the seat belt does jack shit for a car seat with a friction locking mechanism.

    On a related note, while I know that in general rear seats are safer than front seats for little kids, I'm currently having a debate with the wife about the safety of front seats for very short (<3 mile) trips in residential neighborhoods (<25 mph speed limit). To me anything at that speed is safer then even the best safety car/position/whatever at highway speeds. And damn it, I don't want to have to give up my two seater just to drop the kiddo off at daycare. I'm seriously considering just walking her in the mornings if we don't come to an agreement before we start daycare.

    I had a long chat with the firefighter at our local station when we did a seat fit check. I had cranked down the infant seat base so it didn't move at all. He said he had just finished doing a training refresher ~1-2 weeks prior, and the latest studies were showing that "too tight" LATCH bases had a statistically slightly higher chance to fail catastrophically in an accident. We then proceeded to do a "just tight enough" fitment, which was maybe leaning on the base a bit while snugging the LATCH straps so it had a little bit of play but was still within the 2" of lateral movement specified by the manufacturer.

    Regarding front seats, I don't think I would do it, but both of our cars have back seats (even if mine is a bit snug to fit). It's definitely a risk but maybe something to talk over with your pediatrician. They may not know the latest safety standards but they're usually pretty good at weighing risk assessment and can also talk about potential injuries resulting from front seats.

  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    BSoB wrote: »
    So, the middle rear is safer than the side, because of a side impact collision, like getting T-boned. Of course, if you have two kids, they can't both be in the middle, so...? The anchors are easier to get tighter, so are safer when they are small. But they are only strong enough for so much weight, so after a certain point the belt is needed. I don't remember how heavy.

    One note, is the best way to get a car seat in is to kneel on it while you pull on the strap to tighten. that way you don't have to pull against the springs to try and get it down tight.

    We have to put our child seat in the passenger side because I'm too tall for her legs to get comfortably between the car seat and the back of my seat.

    WiiU: Windrunner ; Guild Wars 2: Shadowfire.3940 ; PSN: Bradcopter
    kime
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    I use middle rear for the seat. There is almost never LATCH in the middle so seat belt it is. Basic rules I follow when I install a seat:

    1. Put your belt in lock-out mode. That's where it doesn't expand anymore, only contracts.
    2. Make it T-I-G-H-T if you don't have a base that measures seat belt tightness. It shouldn't wiggle closest to the seatbacks. Of course if you move your hand to the end of the lever (e.g. child seat backrest), you can swing it inches if you put your back into it.
    3. Mind your seat angle. Use OEM adjusters or pool noodles to modify if you don't have a base with adjustable angle.
    4. Harness below shoulders when rear-facing, above shoulders when front-facing.
    5. Harness tight enough that you can't pinch the belt at the shoulders between thumb and forefinger.

  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    BSoB wrote: »
    So, the middle rear is safer than the side, because of a side impact collision, like getting T-boned. Of course, if you have two kids, they can't both be in the middle, so...? The anchors are easier to get tighter, so are safer when they are small. But they are only strong enough for so much weight, so after a certain point the belt is needed. I don't remember how heavy.

    One note, is the best way to get a car seat in is to kneel on it while you pull on the strap to tighten. that way you don't have to pull against the springs to try and get it down tight.

    I mean, I understand the "logic" behind why a lot of the rules are what they are, I'm just not convinced that it would be statistically significant, in terms of health outcomes, in actual testing.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    m!ttens wrote: »
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    I wonder about the car seats thing. I've been trying to find information about who decided the rules on proper car seat installation but haven't had a lot of luck so far. But I read the manual for my car seat and installed it in a way that seemed fine. Took it to one of the safety check places (firehouse I think), where they proceeded to say it wasn't quite right, un-did it, and then redid it exactly the same way. I wish I had marked off where I had the seat belt tightened too, because I swear they didn't even get it as tight.

    But things like which seat are the safest to put it in (rear side vs rear middle), or how many inches it should be able to move laterally when tightened (which of course never comes with the corresponding force to be applied), or the latch system vs seat belt, etc, all of them seem borderline mythos at this point. I'd like to see some crash tests that say serious injury is more likely because of a 3 degree change in seat levelness. Or that activating the locking mechanism on the seat belt does jack shit for a car seat with a friction locking mechanism.

    On a related note, while I know that in general rear seats are safer than front seats for little kids, I'm currently having a debate with the wife about the safety of front seats for very short (<3 mile) trips in residential neighborhoods (<25 mph speed limit). To me anything at that speed is safer then even the best safety car/position/whatever at highway speeds. And damn it, I don't want to have to give up my two seater just to drop the kiddo off at daycare. I'm seriously considering just walking her in the mornings if we don't come to an agreement before we start daycare.

    I had a long chat with the firefighter at our local station when we did a seat fit check. I had cranked down the infant seat base so it didn't move at all. He said he had just finished doing a training refresher ~1-2 weeks prior, and the latest studies were showing that "too tight" LATCH bases had a statistically slightly higher chance to fail catastrophically in an accident. We then proceeded to do a "just tight enough" fitment, which was maybe leaning on the base a bit while snugging the LATCH straps so it had a little bit of play but was still within the 2" of lateral movement specified by the manufacturer.

    Regarding front seats, I don't think I would do it, but both of our cars have back seats (even if mine is a bit snug to fit). It's definitely a risk but maybe something to talk over with your pediatrician. They may not know the latest safety standards but they're usually pretty good at weighing risk assessment and can also talk about potential injuries resulting from front seats.

    In the car seat installation class I took, the professional there said no more than 1" of movement. But not like, straining your whole body to get it to move, but just firmly trying to move the car seat. I wonder if that counts as "too tight" or not :(

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  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    BSoB wrote: »
    So, the middle rear is safer than the side, because of a side impact collision, like getting T-boned. Of course, if you have two kids, they can't both be in the middle, so...? The anchors are easier to get tighter, so are safer when they are small. But they are only strong enough for so much weight, so after a certain point the belt is needed. I don't remember how heavy.

    One note, is the best way to get a car seat in is to kneel on it while you pull on the strap to tighten. that way you don't have to pull against the springs to try and get it down tight.

    I mean, I understand the "logic" behind why a lot of the rules are what they are, I'm just not convinced that it would be statistically significant, in terms of health outcomes, in actual testing.

    Which logic are you arguing against statistic accuracy?

    Middle seat makes sense, T-bones can result in side seats getting pushed in and shit.

    The anchors failing seems weird to me, it seems like it should be relatively easy to make it at least as strong as the seat belt itself.

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  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    I looked it up and it looks like it's 65 pounds for child + seat as the limit for switching to the belt over the LATCH.

    https://www.nhtsa.gov/installing-your-car-seat-vehicle-and-car-seat-parts-explained


  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    edited August 12
    Brody wrote: »
    Jebus314 wrote: »
    BSoB wrote: »
    So, the middle rear is safer than the side, because of a side impact collision, like getting T-boned. Of course, if you have two kids, they can't both be in the middle, so...? The anchors are easier to get tighter, so are safer when they are small. But they are only strong enough for so much weight, so after a certain point the belt is needed. I don't remember how heavy.

    One note, is the best way to get a car seat in is to kneel on it while you pull on the strap to tighten. that way you don't have to pull against the springs to try and get it down tight.

    I mean, I understand the "logic" behind why a lot of the rules are what they are, I'm just not convinced that it would be statistically significant, in terms of health outcomes, in actual testing.

    Which logic are you arguing against statistic accuracy?

    Middle seat makes sense, T-bones can result in side seats getting pushed in and shit.

    The anchors failing seems weird to me, it seems like it should be relatively easy to make it at least as strong as the seat belt itself.

    It's just not always obvious what the real world results would be. Maybe any slowish speed crash results in the car not really buckling inwards (frame's are too strong). Maybe high speed crashes have just as many injuries/fatalities no matter which seat because the main injuries are all whiplash related rather than puncture from framing collapsing. Who knows. The point is just because we think something might be safer, doesn't mean it is.

    It would be useful for making decisions to know what kind of effects the recommendations really have. Because putting convenience over a 50% reduction in chance of serious injury is something I want to avoid, but putting a 0.01% reduction in chance of serious injury over major inconvenience is also something I would like to avoid.

    edit - As an example, the safety person we took our car seat to for inspection made a point about being accurate for the seat level adjustment (the car seat even has a little bubble level built in). But the only study I could find on seat position seemed to indicate that the testing showed no change in outcome for seat back positions between 30-45 degrees (for rear facing seats). And I think minimal changes in outcome for 5 or so degrees on either side of that. That is a huge fucking window, and tells me I shouldn't be wasting my time leveling the seat by 2-3 degrees with the built in level.

    Jebus314 on
    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited August 12
    The statistics in the book we got when our first was born source 34% difference between side and center, citing the CBC. CBC has a lot of alarming child seat statistics, but I can't find that one online, I can find enough that are studied and cited enough that I do trust any child seat instruction that isn't blatantly designed to generate extra sales or strangle the secondary market*.

    Edit: https://kidsittingsafe.com/car-seat-statistics-compilation/ This site says 43% citing a pediatric medical publication.


    *-Seriously, go wash your head anyone who repeats the, "Replace the seat immediately if it gets wet," recommendation that's on the stickers because, seriously, between pee and bottles and sippies and "Mama look Grandpa gave me a slurpee!" and snow do you know how many times that seat will get wet?

    Hevach on
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  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    The statistics in the book we got when our first was born source 34% difference between side and center, citing the CBC. CBC has a lot of alarming child seat statistics, but I can't find that one online, I can find enough that are studied and cited enough that I do trust any child seat instruction that isn't blatantly designed to generate extra sales or strangle the secondary market*.

    Edit: https://kidsittingsafe.com/car-seat-statistics-compilation/ This site says 43% citing a pediatric medical publication.


    *-Seriously, go wash your head anyone who repeats the, "Replace the seat immediately if it gets wet," recommendation that's on the stickers because, seriously, between pee and bottles and sippies and "Mama look Grandpa gave me a slurpee!" and snow do you know how many times that seat will get wet?

    These are the types of articles I find interesting/frustrating. As you reported the site says there is a 43% reduction in injuries when sitting in the middle versus the side. So I went and looked up the report.

    To start with the injury rate for rear facing car seats was >0.5% in all cases for the crashes investigated. So for example, the difference between center and side seats was like 0.2% vs 0.4%. Which is not nothing, but when put in context seems way less important than when the website just listed a 43% reduction in injuries. This is what the report had to say about it:
    The data from this study do not indicate that a CRS restrained in an outboard position is a poor choice for children of this age but rather that given the available space and the ability to obtain a tight installation, restraining a CRS in the center rear allows for further reductions in injury risk beyond the already excellent protection afforded by CRSs attached in the outboard positions.

    I don't know about anyone else, but that is a huge fucking distinction from the bare statistic reported by the website, and the widely adopted "truth" about child positioning.

    And, as for the obviousness of side seats being more dangerous, I would point out that the study found a 40% reduction for injuries when the child was sitting in the center seat vs a child in the side seat, when the crash did not hit the side of the vehicle the child was sitting on. So somehow a rear end crash is less dangerous for the child in the center seat? I'm not even suggesting that there is an unaccounted for bias (which there definitely could be), just that using logic to try and reason what the statistics will show does not always lead to the correct conclusion.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • Jebus314Jebus314 Registered User regular
    At any rate, I'm not trying to start an in-depth discussion about child safety seat statistics (although I will happily accept blanket recommendations that anyone has on good references). Mostly I was just lamenting my ability to adequately assess actual risk.

    My wife seems particularly susceptible to media hysteria on child safety topics. Unfortunately everyone is quick to tell you about the 1 kid out of 1 million cases who died from using pacifier that touched the ground or something equally as innocuous, but it's very difficult to find reasoned analysis and reporting on actual risk levels.

    "The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    Unfortunately you just need time. There were multiple instances where I would wipe my younger daughter's pacifier on my shirt and give it back to her (when we were in the house)

    Mugsley on
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    When my baby was very little I was very overconcerned about her safety, probably due to hormones. This is how they manage to sell new parents things like baby sock heart monitors.

    Jebus314kimeCauld
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I used to work at the Child Abuse Prevention Center in our county, and my job was basically analyzing the circumstances of every child death that occurred in our county. As a father of two young kids, I basically existed in a permanent state of abject terror for those three years. (I basically worked there until it broke me, then I got the hell out.)

    The upshot is that pretty much everything is a risk factor. Even getting in a fucking car with your child is a risk factor. Going within 500 yards of a pool is a risk factor. But these risks often exist at the margins, and there is a huge difference between the risk added by moving your carseat from the center of the backseat to the side of the backseat, and that added by not using a carseat at all. The latter is a big (and irresponsible) amount of risk, the former is a lot more subjective.

    There is a fine line between being prudent, and trying to bubble wrap your children. Everyone's going to have a different idea of where that line is, and that's fine. A proper degree of caution isn't completely subjective - carseats are a must, don't fucking leave your kids unsupervised around a pool if they can't swim, etc - but it is OFTEN subjective.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    spool32 wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    To all the soon-to-be parents ITT, I want to share a little advice about all the advice you are guaranteed to get. My wife and I are nerdy types and tried to learn as much as we could before our little angel arrived. Out of everything, the pre-natal class we took at our birthing center was the most valuable time and money spent. Just two anecdotes about all the good stuff we learned there: 1. Installing car seats correctly is hard. 2. When our little one choked on a piece of mushed banana (seriously?), we felt relatively calm and knew the baby-heimlich steps.

    On the other end of the spectrum, there will be a lot of hard contradictions. In the US right now, everybody will teach you that co-sleeping is the devil and you will murder your child. Meanwhile when we were in Germany, everybody (including professionals like midwives and trade-magazines) were like: do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, co-sleeping? It was a really bizarre dichotomy that's still with me.

    ... and that's how it goes as a parent.

    This is so real.

    Over the 10ish years we were raising small kids (they are all grown now) , you were clearly into infanticide if you let your baby sleep under the following conditions:

    - on their back
    - on their side
    - on their stomach
    - in bed with you
    - on your bed at all
    - on the carpet
    - in a crib
    - in a car seat or swing
    - with crib bumpers
    - without crib bumpers
    - with pillows or soft things
    - with stuffed animals
    - without soft things
    - in silence
    - with ambient sounds
    - on their own
    - with us in the room

    I probably have a lot of advice, and some of it at least is good, and the rest is either dated or not good or situational or confirmation bias. :)

    Here are my top ones though:

    - be consistent. Rock-solid utterly totally unshakably consistent, no exceptions in any cases except where you want your kids to learn that they can get an exception. And hoo boy you had better think about which cases those really are, because once you break the seal on exceptions to a rule, you can basically never go back. If you break too many seals, they just learn that all rules are negotiable and rules lose their power.

    To this I would add:

    The appearance of consistency is more important than actual consistency, and it's important to recognize which hills are worth dying on. Especially when you get to more abstract rules like "don't talk back" and stuff.

    There will be times when you look back and realize you just spent 30 minutes arguing with your kid because you said "I TOLD YOU you're not going to the movies, one more word about it and I'm taking away your phone" and they said literally one additional word and you were trying to stick to your guns and now you're in a shouting match about how Janice at school has TWO pairs of pink sneakers and wait how the fuck did we end up here, what is even going on.

    It's okay to let the kid have a minor victory every now and then without violating the spirit of consistency. And it'll avert a good number of fights, which is beneficial to everyone involved. Sometimes it helps to remember that children aren't constantly trying to put one over on you. Mostly, they're good faith actors doing their best and occasionally fucking up because they're new to this stuff, just like you.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

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  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    My wife and I really want to have a second kid, but as we get closer to actually trying to make that happen, my fear of the lack of fiscal security living in suburban America provides now keeps becoming a larger and larger thing looming over my every thought. So far we've managed to make things work without her needing to work, and I certainly don't want to have a second kid just to end up suddenly needing to find a way to pay for child care for two, and I'm just worried that I haven't thought of something, and feeding 4 is going to be a lot more than I anticipated over feeding 3, and there is so much work we need to get done so we can have space for another baby. But also I miss having an adorable little infant. Sapling is cuter than anything I could of possibly imagined, but she got through the "cuddle with this immobile ball of cuteness" phase too fast.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

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  • urahonkyurahonky Dayton, OHRegistered User regular
    Yeah best thing I can say is that you need to be comfortable with it. I'm currently paying nearly $700 a week in daycare expenses. I'm lucky to have a good job but others aren't.

  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Also, Sapling has started singing along to the Gilmore Girls theme song, and its pretty cute.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

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  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    Wife and I did the rough math a decade ago and we figured out that if we had a third kid, the daycare costs would equal her salary.

    One of the reasons we stopped at 2. (we both have a sibling so 2 was going to happen pretty much from the get-go)

  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    Got home feeling a little stressed and depressed. Asked Sapling for a hug, but she said no (she was very busy eating snacks), and talked about it a little bit with my wife. She asked Sapling to come over and give me a big hug, and she did, squeezing me really hard, and I definitely cried a little bit.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    Also, Sapling has started singing along to the Gilmore Girls theme song, and its pretty cute.

    This is my alarm in the morning. My daughter has started humming along with it.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Brody wrote: »
    My wife and I really want to have a second kid, but as we get closer to actually trying to make that happen, my fear of the lack of fiscal security living in suburban America provides now keeps becoming a larger and larger thing looming over my every thought. So far we've managed to make things work without her needing to work, and I certainly don't want to have a second kid just to end up suddenly needing to find a way to pay for child care for two, and I'm just worried that I haven't thought of something, and feeding 4 is going to be a lot more than I anticipated over feeding 3, and there is so much work we need to get done so we can have space for another baby. But also I miss having an adorable little infant. Sapling is cuter than anything I could of possibly imagined, but she got through the "cuddle with this immobile ball of cuteness" phase too fast.

    The early stuff is definitely a scrape, and I honestly don't know how hard it is nowadays... we had our three from 96-2000, and Bel stayed home with them... I remember we threw a party with the diaper money when the last one was fully out of them.

    Feeding four isn't much worse than three until they're both teens. :) It's expensive but idk, not impossible, and having your wife home has some pretty massive intangible benefits both for the family itself and for your ability to be at work even when things have gone sideways with a kiddo.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited August 14
    Brody wrote: »
    Got home feeling a little stressed and depressed. Asked Sapling for a hug, but she said no (she was very busy eating snacks), and talked about it a little bit with my wife. She asked Sapling to come over and give me a big hug, and she did, squeezing me really hard, and I definitely cried a little bit.

    A common conversation upon arriving home:

    "Can I get a hug, buddy?"
    "NO I DON'T LIKE YOU!"

    Literally every book I read them lately is something about how other people have feelings because... damn, when they're no hitting you in the nuts they're getting you in the feels.

    Hevach on
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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Having a second kid is definitely a big financial kick in the nuts. You will absolutely feel it, and it's potentially going to be the difference between "we could eat dinner out every night if we wanted to" and "maybe we can afford to do McDonald's one a week." Or "we can go on annual family vacations" versus "we can probably swing a day trip to Six Flags."

    On the upside, if the kids are close in age, they can keep each other occupied for hours, and the older one can give you free babysitting for the younger one.

    Also something something more love to go around blah blah whatever.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
    Jebus314ElvenshaeAim
  • MulysaSemproniusMulysaSempronius but also susie nyRegistered User regular
    With our second kid, there was a period of a couple of months where daycare for both cost more than I made at my job. I kept working, since I had just gotten a job that I could retire with and had very nice hours/pay. But we definitely had some credit card debt for a little bit.
    Now my oldest is starting 1st grade, and my youngest is starting a 3s program that is half the price of daycare, so it's starting to work out. But the main reason we stayed away from 3 kids was financial. There was no way we could handle it. Most of our kids' friends are only kids, and they are doing really well. Whatever works, works.

    If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
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