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US Immigration Policy - Travel advisory: don't go to the South if you're Hispanic/Latino

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    edited July 6
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    sanstodo wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    It was argued before SCOTUS that they needed a verdict by June 30th so they could proceed with printing the census.

    I'm just saying, lying under oath should have consequences.

    Unfortunately, the law treats arguments, and the hypothetical factual bases underneath, as fungible.

    I didn't know you posted here, Justice Roberts! Haha, but seriously, it came up again and again and was used as justification to bypass normal appeals processes and go straight to SCOTUS. This isn't normal and shouldn't be allowed to just slide by.


    (Twitter user @emptywheel doesn't have any particular credits listed in their bio, but the pictures are just a few selections from the lengthy motion filed by the ACLU, which is linked in the tweet.)

    Emptywheel is Marcy Wheeler, an independent journalist who covers civil rights and national security. She’s pretty qualified to comment on this stuff.

    Edit: for context because totp

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Thanks for the clarification, Elldren.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    The citizenship question, is just horrible racism. I’ve thought about it, and I remember illegal immigrants either not answering the census or lying about it in 2000 so from an aid and rep standpoint it’s not the sky is falling but it isn’t great, with that said:

    I think we should fight it with everything we got, look for injunctions against the contractors printing them and the agency head. We may not be able to stop the president from being terrible but if we arrest the head of any contractor and printer who try to violate a federal injunction. We can effectively stop them.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    The citizenship question, is just horrible racism. I’ve thought about it, and I remember illegal immigrants either not answering the census or lying about it in 2000 so from an aid and rep standpoint it’s not the sky is falling but it isn’t great, with that said:

    I think we should fight it with everything we got, look for injunctions against the contractors printing them and the agency head. We may not be able to stop the president from being terrible but if we arrest the head of any contractor and printer who try to violate a federal injunction. We can effectively stop them.

    Well, we were told they had given up on the question before the president said they hadn't, and then the president said it was about districting during the weekend (which is the true and racist part), so presumably on Monday the judge is going to be unhappy with the poor attorneys who are actually in court.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    DoJ: "We've been instructed to try to come up with an argument that it isn't about racism--"
    Trump: "IT'S TOTALLY ABOUT RACISM"
    DoJ: *facepalm* "god damnit."

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  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    DoJ: "We've been instructed to try to come up with an argument that it isn't about racism--"
    Trump: "IT'S TOTALLY ABOUT RACISM"
    DoJ: *facepalm* "god damnit."

    I would say that trump would respond, "it's not about racism, it's about white supremacy! Checkmate supreme court!"

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    An entirely new team of DoJ lawyers on the census case.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    An entirely new team of DoJ lawyers on the census case.

    Sunday night massacre or "management" from Trump?

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    An entirely new team of DoJ lawyers on the census case.

    Sunday night massacre or "management" from Trump?

    That’s the same thing

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    An entirely new team of DoJ lawyers on the census case.
    Are you serious? Is there a news story about this?

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    As always if I forget to link something just check southpaw's twitter feed, but here you go.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    An entirely new team of DoJ lawyers on the census case.
    Are you serious? Is there a news story about this?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/justice-department-changing-lawyers-on-census-case/2019/07/07/18ba6650-a112-11e9-b732-41a79c2551bf_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2c4e7a76f5ac
    An entirely new team of DoJ lawyers on the census case.

    Sunday night massacre or "management" from Trump?

    That’s the same thing

    Eh. One is folks resigning rather than doing what they're ordered to do. The other could be replacing them because they "lost".

    Speculation from lawyers I'm seeing is that this signals a complete change of legal theory and new lawyers make that presentation a bit more plausible. "More" not being very much but still an amount.

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  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Is this the lawyer version of a football team sending in their third stringers because it's the two minute warning and they're down 30 and what's even the point?

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Is this the lawyer version of a football team sending in their third stringers because it's the two minute warning and they're down 30 and what's even the point?

    No, it's the legal team that pissed off the judge on Friday not wanting to piss him off again tomorrow.

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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    NYT and WaPo have a story that several federal agencies have been quietly combing the the drivers licence database with facial recoginition software over the last few years. ICE is of course doing that to find more people to deport

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/07/fbi-ice-find-state-drivers-license-photos-are-gold-mine-facial-recognition-searches/?utm_term=.c38c8dc6feae
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/us/politics/ice-drivers-licenses-facial-recognition.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Just saw this:
    Pelosi has repeatedly swatted back criticism of the House border bill by citing her own horror at reports of poor conditions at overcrowded U.S. Customs and Border Protection facilities where unaccompanied children have been kept. She has said those reports made swift action necessary, even as Democrats oppose Trump’s immigration policies.

    Still, four first-term House Democratic women with high profiles — Tlaib, Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar (Minn.), and Ayanna Pressley (Mass.) — decided to vote against the measure, encouraged by liberal activists and migrant advocacy groups. Omar said at the time that the bill was only “throwing more money” at the Trump administration, which she accused of committing “human rights abuses.”

    “All these people have their public whatever and their Twitter world,” Pelosi said in an interview with New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd that was published online Saturday. “But they didn’t have any following. They’re four people and that’s how many votes they got.”

    Tensions Flare Over Pelosi's Comments about Four House Democratic Women and Border Bill

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Yeah Pelosi and if more Democrats were as good at public whatever and twitter world as they are, none of this shit would have had a chance to happen in the first place.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    i don't know that pelosi is in a position to criticize any democrats for impotency

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    NYT and WaPo have a story that several federal agencies have been quietly combing the the drivers licence database with facial recoginition software over the last few years. ICE is of course doing that to find more people to deport

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/07/fbi-ice-find-state-drivers-license-photos-are-gold-mine-facial-recognition-searches/?utm_term=.c38c8dc6feae
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/us/politics/ice-drivers-licenses-facial-recognition.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

    So some of that is the whole panopticon we'll all be dealing with as time marches on but now add in the extra sauce that a couple blue states let non-citizens get a drivers license and those efforts just got hugely undermined.

    Sleep
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    honovere wrote: »
    NYT and WaPo have a story that several federal agencies have been quietly combing the the drivers licence database with facial recoginition software over the last few years. ICE is of course doing that to find more people to deport

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/07/fbi-ice-find-state-drivers-license-photos-are-gold-mine-facial-recognition-searches/?utm_term=.c38c8dc6feae
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/us/politics/ice-drivers-licenses-facial-recognition.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

    So some of that is the whole panopticon we'll all be dealing with as time marches on but now add in the extra sauce that a couple blue states let non-citizens get a drivers license and those efforts just got hugely undermined.

    Uh...

    All states let non-citizens get drivers licenses

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Elldren wrote: »
    honovere wrote: »
    NYT and WaPo have a story that several federal agencies have been quietly combing the the drivers licence database with facial recoginition software over the last few years. ICE is of course doing that to find more people to deport

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/07/07/fbi-ice-find-state-drivers-license-photos-are-gold-mine-facial-recognition-searches/?utm_term=.c38c8dc6feae
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/07/us/politics/ice-drivers-licenses-facial-recognition.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

    So some of that is the whole panopticon we'll all be dealing with as time marches on but now add in the extra sauce that a couple blue states let non-citizens get a drivers license and those efforts just got hugely undermined.

    Uh...

    All states let non-citizens get drivers licenses

    That was poorly phrased. In NY, as of a recently passed law, you no longer have to prove legal immigration status. This was not the case before. You could be a non-citizen with legal immigration status and get a license but if you couldn't prove that status you weren't eligible to get a license at all.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Good lord Pelosi whining to Maureen Dowd about people seeing her shitty bill as a shitty bill. It's like the exact fucking reason people are upset with her.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Wait until Pelosi looks outside and sees those damned kids on her lawn again.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    It's pretty incredible that someone can takes all the good will being the opposition to Trump entails and basically throw it out the window.

    Never thought about it before, but I'm guessing the rise of the Nazi's would have also been marked by ineffectual hand-wringers who decry the atrocities but then do absolutely nothing to stop it.

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  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    It's super disappointing. I really liked Pelosi. She handled the government shutdown earlier this year (feels like a lifetime ago) amazingly well. But she got played this time. She needs to accept it and do something to make it right. Acknowledge your error and move forward.

    Considering it was the 'moderate' Dems that fucked this up, she should be seeking help from the progressives, not taking petty swipes at them.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Pelosi doesn't mention that they all voted against the bill because they didn't trust McConnell to keep his word that he would pass the House bill. And of course, McConnell didn't keep his word.

    So why is Pelosi taking it out on the only people who were smart enough to read the room?

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  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Zomro wrote: »
    It's super disappointing. I really liked Pelosi. She handled the government shutdown earlier this year (feels like a lifetime ago) amazingly well. But she got played this time. She needs to accept it and do something to make it right. Acknowledge your error and move forward.

    Considering it was the 'moderate' Dems that fucked this up, she should be seeking help from the progressives, not taking petty swipes at them.

    Yeah, but "I thought the Republicans were acting in good faith this time" is quite the error.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Pelosi's not wrong about the lack of votes is the issue.

    The entire Dowd column is, as usual though, terrible, lacking in real context and packed full of stupid extraneous details and fawning over bullshit. The thrust of what Pelosi is trying to say seems to be that the problem is the GOP, who don't give a shit about the children being held in custody, but the press wants to run with the "Democrats in Disarray" story. And everyone is running with the juicy quote.

    But in the end, you don't got the votes, you don't got the votes. AOC et all don't command enough support form the caucus to get this kind of shit done.

    shryke on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Pelosi doesn't mention that they all voted against the bill because they didn't trust McConnell to keep his word that he would pass the House bill. And of course, McConnell didn't keep his word.

    So why is Pelosi taking it out on the only people who were smart enough to read the room?

    Reading the room means counting votes, not being right. The bill didn't pass because leadership thought it was correct or because they weren't smart enough to know McConnell would fuck with it (he literally told them he would, so there's no smarts required). It passed because the moderates caved and gave the GOP the votes they needed to pass the thing and that's all that is required.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    shryke wrote: »
    Pelosi's not wrong about the lack of votes is the issue.

    The entire Dowd column is, as usual though, terrible, lacking in real context and packed full of stupid extraneous details and fawning over bullshit. The thrust of what Pelosi is trying to say seems to be that the problem is the GOP, who don't give a shit about the children being held in custody, but the press wants to run with the "Democrats in Disarray" story. And everyone is running with the juicy quote.

    But in the end, you don't got the votes, you don't got the votes. AOC et all don't command enough support form the caucus to get this kind of shit done.

    They don't "command enough support" because Pelosi, Schumer, etc. refuse to take them seriously. Hell, hasn't the DNC announced they'll primary them if they keep speaking out or something like that? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Damn shame nobody pushed the conversation on the concentration camps except for a freshman rep. Imagine if we somehow had some leadership on the issue.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Pelosi's not wrong about the lack of votes is the issue.

    The entire Dowd column is, as usual though, terrible, lacking in real context and packed full of stupid extraneous details and fawning over bullshit. The thrust of what Pelosi is trying to say seems to be that the problem is the GOP, who don't give a shit about the children being held in custody, but the press wants to run with the "Democrats in Disarray" story. And everyone is running with the juicy quote.

    But in the end, you don't got the votes, you don't got the votes. AOC et all don't command enough support form the caucus to get this kind of shit done.

    They don't "command enough support" because Pelosi, Schumer, etc. refuse to take them seriously. Hell, hasn't the DNC announced they'll primary them if they keep speaking out? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    No. They don't command enough support because they don't hold views shared by a ton of the Democratic caucus. There's a whole lot of more moderate/centrist Democratic House (and Senate) members out there who don't agree with what AOC et all are saying. And on this issue in particular they demonstrated that, when they sided with the GOP. Or, quite simply, they didn't have the votes. Not enough support from other House members to push their side the way the feckless moderates managed to push theirs.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Pelosi doesn't mention that they all voted against the bill because they didn't trust McConnell to keep his word that he would pass the House bill. And of course, McConnell didn't keep his word.

    So why is Pelosi taking it out on the only people who were smart enough to read the room?

    Reading the room means counting votes, not being right. The bill didn't pass because leadership thought it was correct or because they weren't smart enough to know McConnell would fuck with it (he literally told them he would, so there's no smarts required). It passed because the moderates caved and gave the GOP the votes they needed to pass the thing and that's all that is required.

    Pelosi wrote a letter telling the caucus to vote for the bill. She voted for the bill. If you don't have the votes, you don't have the votes; but if you can't manage to take a stand against concentration camps regardless of the vote count, you're part of the problem.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    daveNYC wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Pelosi doesn't mention that they all voted against the bill because they didn't trust McConnell to keep his word that he would pass the House bill. And of course, McConnell didn't keep his word.

    So why is Pelosi taking it out on the only people who were smart enough to read the room?

    Reading the room means counting votes, not being right. The bill didn't pass because leadership thought it was correct or because they weren't smart enough to know McConnell would fuck with it (he literally told them he would, so there's no smarts required). It passed because the moderates caved and gave the GOP the votes they needed to pass the thing and that's all that is required.

    Pelosi wrote a letter telling the caucus to vote for the bill. She voted for the bill. If you don't have the votes, you don't have the votes; but if you can't manage to take a stand against concentration camps regardless of the vote count, you're part of the problem.

    She did that after the moderates had already caved and the bill was passing anyway. This is basically always how this stuff goes down in legislatures. The actual vote is a show. Everyone knows what can or cannot pass by that point and so the votes are mostly just various parties and individuals positioning themselves for show. The moderates caved and were gonna pass the thing, so Pelosi and the rest of House leadership decided they wanted to position themselves as not being against the border funding bill.

    And, again, this wasn't a stand against concentration camps. This bill was not "Will we have concentration camps or not?". There were gonna be concentration camps regardless of what happened. The vote was on funding for the "emergency at the border". Refusing to vote for the thing is not voting against concentration camps. You could rhetorically make an argument that it can represent that kind of stand in the press but you can also easily argue it means other things and House leadership (as far as I can determine from the news) basically decided to avoid having it's members get attacked for "refusing to fund border security" or the like.

    shryke on
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  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    The situation we are in right now, by their actions a large percentage of Democratic senators and congresscritters are supportive of the concentration camps. Shryke is right. While Pelosi and Schummer have failed to provide leadership and have in fact argued against opposition, it is a symptom of the political position held by the majority of representatives. The elected Democratic party as is currently made up does not stand in opposition to the camps. In fact, as their actions and votes on this bill shows, they are in support of the camps. It reads a lot more like any strings they attached to the funding initially were intendes as a sop to their anti-fascist electirs and not as something they truly cared about. This means changing more than the current leadership. It means changing many of the individual senators and representatives via primary as well.

    As another poster mentioned earlier: This is America, and the elected representatives reflect it.

    Caedwyr on
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    I periodically get phone calls from my rep because I've gone to fundraisers for him before.

    His office got quite the voicemail from me after the vote. I suspect I won't get a call this cycle.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I mean Pelosi for years has had this image of a vote bender in the caucus and then with this recent fold I call bullshit. Honestly the dem congressional leadership betrayed the country and should be tossed on their ass and new leadership appointed.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

    It all depends what you think they are "making them own" though. Because there's a bunch of stuff in the bill for funding various things it may not look good to vote against.

    Which is the core issue here it seems. The moderates did not want to be seen creating gridlock in Congress or refusing to fund aid money for the border or the like.

    SleepGnome-Interruptus
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