Like... check it. It's amazing that I have to spell this out but here it is. Proximity to an issue at hand in your country's policies matters.
Immigrants have the most direct perspective on United States immigration policy. Not the lawmakers who write those laws - the people who are subject to them. The people who write the laws have largely, if not universally, not had to experience what going through the process is like. Legislators often write laws on things they are not experts in or have direct experience with. And the enforcers of these laws and policies are the people you trust the least, because they have everything to gain and everything to lose in lying about it and covering things up.
Descendants of immigrants, especially first generation born in the United States, have the next level of perspective. This is where I am, for the record. The conditions our parents went through has helped define their life in America, and has extended to us and how they chose to raise us. There is a trickle effect.
There's also perspective difference when we're talking about people coming from different parts of the world. A white British person coming to America is going to have a different experience compared to a Mexican person coming to America. And it's a difference that matters in analyzing and calling out the disparities within.
And then there's people who are just... here and have been here for generations. And within that, there are white people. And within that, there are the "middle class" white people. And within that, there are the wealthy. And the further on this chain you go, the more you doubt the experiences and hardships all of the above groups go through. The more likely you are to go, "Well I mean, do we REALLY know if those camps are as bad as people say they are?" It's skepticism born of a live of privilege. Having never seen hardship in life, it's impossible to imagine other people going through hardships of any sort. It must be a failure of the individual instead of the system in play. Which is catastrophically incorrect as a take. It comes with an inability to admit to being incorrect on things.
As a counter, it's worth remembering that you aren't the only one with skin in the game at the level you are talking about and not all of them agree with you. What seems to be getting lost in this discussion is how much most people here do genuinely want things to be better for immigrants. You'll notice that most folks on the side of "this one camp doesn't APPEAR to be a prison" are STILL all for verifying whats being said and minimizing the time at said camps. If you want to argue we can do better? Sure, fuck yes we can do better, no one is arguing that.
Hard disagree. We have had a multi page semantic debate on the usage of concentration camp. We haven’t even started debating how and why the Biden admin has failed in it’s election promises
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
What would you have us do, when a facility that was closed last year is being reopened? Simply let it slide by without comment?
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
There have been multiple people who've put forth a variety of reasons why hotels may not be better. Obviously there's no objective "this number shows which is better" thing, but it's not like there are no trade-offs here.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Not enough social workers to provide supervision in an open hotel environment, almost guaranteed security issues the moment an individual hotel is found to be sheltering immigrants leading for a need for enhanced security which, speaking as a former hotelier would be a nightmare, just off the top of my head.
If we had the ability to materialize the staff required for such an operation, 110% let's fuckin go, but that's not going to be happening any time soon.
In the meantime, moving from cages to dorms is a step in the right direction, even if it isn't NEARLY as large a step as I'd prefer. After consistent backsliding I'll take movement in the other direction 35 days into a new administration. Let's see if the momentum holds.
...well, kind of. They used hotel buildings and staffed them with what might have been ICE chuds. It's hard to tell since they won't say who they work(ed?) for.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Plus China has unsurprisingly been making inroads with many South American countries after decades of destabilisation, coups and and training of death squads by the United States, setting the region up to be one of the next hotspots to be targeted.
Several have already changed recognising Beijing as China’s capital, and Chinese manufacturing (Huawei, etc) are being used for infrastructure/governmental equipment.
IIRC much like Australia, China wanting to buy minerals was a salve for a lot of the economies there during the global financial crisis.
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Not enough social workers to provide supervision in an open hotel environment, almost guaranteed security issues the moment an individual hotel is found to be sheltering immigrants leading for a need for enhanced security which, speaking as a former hotelier would be a nightmare, just off the top of my head.
If we had the ability to materialize the staff required for such an operation, 110% let's fuckin go, but that's not going to be happening any time soon.
In the meantime, moving from cages to dorms is a step in the right direction, even if it isn't NEARLY as large a step as I'd prefer. After consistent backsliding I'll take movement in the other direction 35 days into a new administration. Let's see if the momentum holds.
I’d like to know your calculus on your social worker calculation, I don’t know how it is inherently worse than in the camp. Unless you are suggesting that in the camps the kids need to be forcibly separated in a panopticon style set up? If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying), then we shouldn’t be using it because we need to be holding ourselves to a higher standard of care
With the hotel thing, we have some precedent in countries that covid under control. Australia & NZ use the hotels to house people flying into the countries. This is HUGELY unpopular, as people see these arrivals as a threat to our covid-free status. The only thing that has stopped it being riots in the streets is people seem to grasp that we are bound by international law to accept the people coming in and majority are returning citizens. They have security cordons and all the rest of it set up; it’s a non-issue though there have been a few demonstrations and such going on
But yeah hey I agree with you let’s keep it moving, let’s keep demanding more! The Overton window needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to the left
And again I would ask: who are the contractors that this work is inevitably farmed out to? And what influence is there in providing an industry taxpayer dollars, with those immigrants, who have braved travels few of us will ever need endure, used essentially as assets to be managed in exchange
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
When the entire nation is built around white supremacy the foundation for progress is a mixture of lava and cow shit. Over half a million people in America are homeless and the American prison system is... *gestures wildly* - we're not good at taking care of people.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Plus China has unsurprisingly been making inroads with many South American countries after decades of destabilisation, coups and and training of death squads by the United States, setting the region up to be one of the next hotspots to be targeted.
Several have already changed recognising Beijing as China’s capital, and Chinese manufacturing (Huawei, etc) are being used for infrastructure/governmental equipment.
IIRC much like Australia, China wanting to buy minerals was a salve for a lot of the economies there during the global financial crisis.
These refugees aren’t coming out of nowhere.
At the risk of being slightly off topic but a really useful piece of info nonetheless; the most important factor in Australia avoiding the ‘08 GFC was a large cash payment made to each citizen. The treasurer, Wayne Swan, was rightly recognised as the best in the world for his work. Check him out! Lots of very Interesting reading to be down in this space
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
I mean, are you referring to people in this thread, or in general, because, the people in this thread absolutely do acknowledge ALL of that.
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
When the entire nation is built around white supremacy the foundation for progress is a mixture of lava and cow shit. Over half a million people in America are homeless and the American prison system is... *gestures wildly* - we're not good at taking care of people.
No I’m aware of that
I perhaps should have noted that curious it’s was directed more... locally than the wide, garbage gestalt of our settler colony nation
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
I mean, are you referring to people in this thread, or in general, because, the people in this thread absolutely do acknowledge ALL of that.
Given the fact folks here kind of drove henroid (who has noted, repeatedly, in this thread and its previous iterations, that he’s Latin American and what this program signifies to him as to how this country, and even the Democrats, value him and the rest of our Latin American community) out of the thread for the time being, gonna have to ask for a bit more of expressing that acknowledgement and a little less water carrying for politicians who don’t even know we exist
Also there's expressing skepticism on harsh conditions, past or present, while presenting evidence to the contrary, and then there's expressing skepticism because, "pfft, no way, this is the BIDEN ADMINISTRATION."
This thread has given me a ton of heartache today so I'ma take a break.
And I feel like this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened, either. The memories are fuzzy, but they keep gnawing at the back of my mind that we’ve gone through this shit before where folks keep forgetting that there’s real people getting hurt by this shit.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Not enough social workers to provide supervision in an open hotel environment, almost guaranteed security issues the moment an individual hotel is found to be sheltering immigrants leading for a need for enhanced security which, speaking as a former hotelier would be a nightmare, just off the top of my head.
If we had the ability to materialize the staff required for such an operation, 110% let's fuckin go, but that's not going to be happening any time soon.
In the meantime, moving from cages to dorms is a step in the right direction, even if it isn't NEARLY as large a step as I'd prefer. After consistent backsliding I'll take movement in the other direction 35 days into a new administration. Let's see if the momentum holds.
I’d like to know your calculus on your social worker calculation, I don’t know how it is inherently worse than in the camp. Unless you are suggesting that in the camps the kids need to be forcibly separated in a panopticon style set up? If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying), then we shouldn’t be using it because we need to be holding ourselves to a higher standard of care
With the hotel thing, we have some precedent in countries that covid under control. Australia & NZ use the hotels to house people flying into the countries. This is HUGELY unpopular, as people see these arrivals as a threat to our covid-free status. The only thing that has stopped it being riots in the streets is people seem to grasp that we are bound by international law to accept the people coming in and majority are returning citizens. They have security cordons and all the rest of it set up; it’s a non-issue though there have been a few demonstrations and such going on
But yeah hey I agree with you let’s keep it moving, let’s keep demanding more! The Overton window needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to the left
I have literally no idea where you got the idea I was suggesting a panopticon, forcibly separating anyone etc. Please point out exactly in my post I said that. If you cannot, don't try to set it up as what I'm suggesting and begin arguing against it, and respond to the points in my post.
With regards to the calculations, from enlightenedbum earlier in the thread:
A pretty common theme of the last year has been people pretending there are easy solutions to problems with massively difficult solutions.
More detailed thoughts:
Making it a social work focused response would be great! However, obviously you need Spanish speaking social workers. You probably want them to also at least have some familiarity with the immigrant experience. Additionally, it's a pretty safe guess that unaccompanied minors who are fleeing their homes for the US have some fairly significant trauma to work through. At my school, which is lower middle class middle America, the social workers are overworked with case loads of ~25 kids. More trauma means more intense needs. So your ratio has to be much lower. We are finding a fairly large number of these kids every day.
You would need a damn army of social workers to make this work. Where do you find them? Can you pay to uproot them and send them to the border communities where these kids are? And that's just the first five minutes of thinking about this.
Pretending you can snap a finger and make things better is ridiculous.
Not to mention you're going to need adult supervision, caregivers etc. The hotel solution is a super great end-state to be in once the infrastructure to sustain that solution is in place. But we're still in "It has been just over a month since we were literally locking children in cages, and while we've stopped locking up more kids, there are still an awful lot of kids in cages right now" crisis mode.
Hence my comment about momentum. Comprehensive reform is absolutely needed; to analogize a bit we've got some nasty cancer that needs long term treatment, but we have a whole bunch of sucking chest wounds that need treating right now.
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
When the entire nation is built around white supremacy the foundation for progress is a mixture of lava and cow shit. Over half a million people in America are homeless and the American prison system is... *gestures wildly* - we're not good at taking care of people.
No I’m aware of that
I perhaps should have noted that curious it’s was directed more... locally than the wide, garbage gestalt of our settler colony nation
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
I mean, are you referring to people in this thread, or in general, because, the people in this thread absolutely do acknowledge ALL of that.
Given the fact folks here kind of drove henroid (who has noted, repeatedly, in this thread and its previous iterations, that he’s Latin American and what this program signifies to him as to how this country, and even the Democrats, value him and the rest of our Latin American community) out of the thread for the time being, gonna have to ask for a bit more of expressing that acknowledgement and a little less water carrying for politicians who don’t even know we exist
Also there's expressing skepticism on harsh conditions, past or present, while presenting evidence to the contrary, and then there's expressing skepticism because, "pfft, no way, this is the BIDEN ADMINISTRATION."
This thread has given me a ton of heartache today so I'ma take a break.
And I feel like this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened, either. The memories are fuzzy, but they keep gnawing at the back of my mind that we’ve gone through this shit before where folks keep forgetting that there’s real people getting hurt by this shit.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
We already know. You don't have to tell us. Talking about the reality of things isn't denying that things are bad.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
1) They're reopening it under new management, which in your case appears to mean nothing as you've already assumed both sides are the same
2) The only reason it's being reopened is because they actually give a shit about giving people space due to Covid. Their permanent centers, which are following Covid guidelines, are at capacity. Per the article, the other solution that there's an already established process for would be to send them to Border Patrol jails.
3) They're using an existing facility because the processes for using it are already established. If they were to attempt to use hotels instead, they'd have to invent hundreds of new processes to safely and humanely deal with the kids. Maybe they should be working on setting up those processes right now so months down the road they can go ahead and do that, but right now, a month into the administration, they don't have that set up and kids need to be put somewhere right now.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Not enough social workers to provide supervision in an open hotel environment, almost guaranteed security issues the moment an individual hotel is found to be sheltering immigrants leading for a need for enhanced security which, speaking as a former hotelier would be a nightmare, just off the top of my head.
If we had the ability to materialize the staff required for such an operation, 110% let's fuckin go, but that's not going to be happening any time soon.
In the meantime, moving from cages to dorms is a step in the right direction, even if it isn't NEARLY as large a step as I'd prefer. After consistent backsliding I'll take movement in the other direction 35 days into a new administration. Let's see if the momentum holds.
I’d like to know your calculus on your social worker calculation, I don’t know how it is inherently worse than in the camp. Unless you are suggesting that in the camps the kids need to be forcibly separated in a panopticon style set up? If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying), then we shouldn’t be using it because we need to be holding ourselves to a higher standard of care
With the hotel thing, we have some precedent in countries that covid under control. Australia & NZ use the hotels to house people flying into the countries. This is HUGELY unpopular, as people see these arrivals as a threat to our covid-free status. The only thing that has stopped it being riots in the streets is people seem to grasp that we are bound by international law to accept the people coming in and majority are returning citizens. They have security cordons and all the rest of it set up; it’s a non-issue though there have been a few demonstrations and such going on
But yeah hey I agree with you let’s keep it moving, let’s keep demanding more! The Overton window needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to the left
I have literally no idea where you got the idea I was suggesting a panopticon, forcibly separating anyone etc. Please point out exactly in my post I said that. If you cannot, don't try to set it up as what I'm suggesting and begin arguing against it, and respond to the points in my post.
With regards to the calculations, from enlightenedbum earlier in the thread:
A pretty common theme of the last year has been people pretending there are easy solutions to problems with massively difficult solutions.
More detailed thoughts:
Making it a social work focused response would be great! However, obviously you need Spanish speaking social workers. You probably want them to also at least have some familiarity with the immigrant experience. Additionally, it's a pretty safe guess that unaccompanied minors who are fleeing their homes for the US have some fairly significant trauma to work through. At my school, which is lower middle class middle America, the social workers are overworked with case loads of ~25 kids. More trauma means more intense needs. So your ratio has to be much lower. We are finding a fairly large number of these kids every day.
You would need a damn army of social workers to make this work. Where do you find them? Can you pay to uproot them and send them to the border communities where these kids are? And that's just the first five minutes of thinking about this.
Pretending you can snap a finger and make things better is ridiculous.
Not to mention you're going to need adult supervision, caregivers etc. The hotel solution is a super great end-state to be in once the infrastructure to sustain that solution is in place. But we're still in "It has been just over a month since we were literally locking children in cages, and while we've stopped locking up more kids, there are still an awful lot of kids in cages right now" crisis mode.
Hence my comment about momentum. Comprehensive reform is absolutely needed; to analogize a bit we've got some nasty cancer that needs long term treatment, but we have a whole bunch of sucking chest wounds that need treating right now.
You need to relax, the very next sentence was “If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying)”. My point, in direct response to what you were saying, if we cannot do hotels because we don’t have the people power now, what is different about the detention centres that makes them work correctly? If the answer is it’s just as fucked in the detention centre, at least do it somewhere more homely like a hotel!
If we have some resources available, the admin could show people they are serious by setting up pilot programs and getting the ball rolling.
The burden is on the establishment to demonstrate they are not simply co-opting the words of a movement whilst still going about their business as an oppressive imperialist state. They have not done a very good job disproving this, given their history
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
Just because people disagree with you, doesn’t mean that they aren’t listening.
People have repeatedly agreed that this current approach is essentially the least bad option. I’m not refusing to listen, I see what you’re saying and have considered the points being raised and it’s pretty insulting that the conclusion seems to be that I’m “not listening” because I don’t simply adopt your position the moment I read it.
Would it be fair if this accusation was reversed? No, because just like everyone else here you are responding to comments and offering your opinion.
Things going one direction, especially after they've been accelerated to a higher speed by a government whose only goal was cruelty, cannot snap to go the exact opposite way in an instant. The fact that things aren't fixed and perfect after a month isn't a promise not being kept, it's an unrealistic expectation of the type that causes Democrats to routinely lose and reset the counter.
Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
Not enough social workers to provide supervision in an open hotel environment, almost guaranteed security issues the moment an individual hotel is found to be sheltering immigrants leading for a need for enhanced security which, speaking as a former hotelier would be a nightmare, just off the top of my head.
If we had the ability to materialize the staff required for such an operation, 110% let's fuckin go, but that's not going to be happening any time soon.
In the meantime, moving from cages to dorms is a step in the right direction, even if it isn't NEARLY as large a step as I'd prefer. After consistent backsliding I'll take movement in the other direction 35 days into a new administration. Let's see if the momentum holds.
I’d like to know your calculus on your social worker calculation, I don’t know how it is inherently worse than in the camp. Unless you are suggesting that in the camps the kids need to be forcibly separated in a panopticon style set up? If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying), then we shouldn’t be using it because we need to be holding ourselves to a higher standard of care
With the hotel thing, we have some precedent in countries that covid under control. Australia & NZ use the hotels to house people flying into the countries. This is HUGELY unpopular, as people see these arrivals as a threat to our covid-free status. The only thing that has stopped it being riots in the streets is people seem to grasp that we are bound by international law to accept the people coming in and majority are returning citizens. They have security cordons and all the rest of it set up; it’s a non-issue though there have been a few demonstrations and such going on
But yeah hey I agree with you let’s keep it moving, let’s keep demanding more! The Overton window needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to the left
I have literally no idea where you got the idea I was suggesting a panopticon, forcibly separating anyone etc. Please point out exactly in my post I said that. If you cannot, don't try to set it up as what I'm suggesting and begin arguing against it, and respond to the points in my post.
With regards to the calculations, from enlightenedbum earlier in the thread:
A pretty common theme of the last year has been people pretending there are easy solutions to problems with massively difficult solutions.
More detailed thoughts:
Making it a social work focused response would be great! However, obviously you need Spanish speaking social workers. You probably want them to also at least have some familiarity with the immigrant experience. Additionally, it's a pretty safe guess that unaccompanied minors who are fleeing their homes for the US have some fairly significant trauma to work through. At my school, which is lower middle class middle America, the social workers are overworked with case loads of ~25 kids. More trauma means more intense needs. So your ratio has to be much lower. We are finding a fairly large number of these kids every day.
You would need a damn army of social workers to make this work. Where do you find them? Can you pay to uproot them and send them to the border communities where these kids are? And that's just the first five minutes of thinking about this.
Pretending you can snap a finger and make things better is ridiculous.
Not to mention you're going to need adult supervision, caregivers etc. The hotel solution is a super great end-state to be in once the infrastructure to sustain that solution is in place. But we're still in "It has been just over a month since we were literally locking children in cages, and while we've stopped locking up more kids, there are still an awful lot of kids in cages right now" crisis mode.
Hence my comment about momentum. Comprehensive reform is absolutely needed; to analogize a bit we've got some nasty cancer that needs long term treatment, but we have a whole bunch of sucking chest wounds that need treating right now.
You need to relax, the very next sentence was “If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying)”. My point, in direct response to what you were saying, if we cannot do hotels because we don’t have the people power now, what is different about the detention centres that makes them work correctly? If the answer is it’s just as fucked in the detention centre, at least do it somewhere more homely like a hotel!
If we have some resources available, the admin could show people they are serious by setting up pilot programs and getting the ball rolling.
The burden is on the establishment to demonstrate they are not simply co-opting the words of a movement whilst still going about their business as an oppressive imperialist state. They have not done a very good job disproving this, given their history
Considering how the last N pages of this thread have gone, where someone says something and the next post a strawman is constructed and argued against, I disagree that I was overreacting. I'm gonna pretty forcefully shut that down, because even asking the question of "Are you suggesting X heinous thing" or "It's obviously only Y wow why can't you see that" is kinda rude in my opinion.
And yes, I agree on the "if resources are available they should be used immediately" point which is why I'm personally not very alarmed by them spooling up a closed center that has been used in the past immediately so things are not overcrowded. Is it ideal? No, but neither is an improvised tourniquet when you've lost a hand, but it's better than the alternative of "wait for someone with a proper set of hemostats and sutures" and it is close to hand right now.
As far as the conditions inside go, that's one of those "Verify verify verify" things for me. I hope the Biden Administration doesn't score a massive own goal on said conditions but... We'll see. I will happily excoriate the Administration if they fuck up that badly.
The floated ideal solution of "If you are an unaccompanied minor, you get a room to yourself in a hotel with access to a variety of social services" will require a lot more than just pilot programs and definitely involve Congress to get it set up, but I am totally down for that as an end goal.
My apologies, I understand why you reacted that way.
I still don’t understand why they have the resources to have the children in detention centres but not in hotels. Let’s assume the resourcing stays the same between the two how is the hotel situation uniquely unable to provide for these children?
This will get locked by the morning and I can’t be bothered to type it up now, but I work with at risk black kids who have been through similar sorts of trauma that these refugees have gone through in many cases.
My personal opinion is that there has been a lot of hand waving to dismiss making improvements, without a lot of real world evidence to back it up
knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
From a security standpoint alone it’s untenable.
We have a responsibility to reunite these kids with their families, and keep them safe and cared for until we can do so.
It’s an ugly reality but a facility that is best suited for that purpose is a detention center, not a hotel where anyone with a credit card can come and go.
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
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We have a responsibility to reunite these kids with their families, and keep them safe and cared for until we can do so.
It’s an ugly reality but a facility that is best suited for that purpose is a detention center, not a hotel where anyone with a credit card can come and go.
It is tenable, many countries are using hotels as secure facilities to contain new arrivals to the country for a covid quarantines. This would be been less restrictive than that
The hotels are used exclusively for housing asylum seekers. Lord knows they’re not getting much business
My apologies, I understand why you reacted that way.
I still don’t understand why they have the resources to have the children in detention centres but not in hotels. Let’s assume the resourcing stays the same between the two how is the hotel situation uniquely unable to provide for these children?
So from my personal experience as a hotel manager, they are NOT designed for the care and security of a large group, they're designed for an individual/small number of individuals.
Let's talk security first. Since any concentration of immigrants being housed at a hotel is going to get a certain amount of the populous IRRATIONALLY ANGRY and any hotel is going to by definition be in an area easily accessible by the public, you're going to need to have a considerable security presence. While again, not necessarily ideal, considering we just had people invade the Capitol Building I'm going to assume we want armed officers in this case since y'know... said IRRATIONALY ANGRY populace tried to assassinate members of the government that they had elected.
This is a Very Hard Problem. I'll use the 130 room I used to manage as an example; it had a combination of interior and exterior access rooms with limited security camera coverage, primarily in the lobby, with a large number of entry points to the actual banks of rooms on various floors. Just to keep the three main entryways safe (assuming we're ignoring the fire exits that could be entered fairly easily) that's 3x officers times three for three shifts. Then you're going to want people at the entry points to the parking lot to stop vehicled and check credentials etc, which for mine would be 4x officers, two at each entry, again x3 for 3 shifts. You're also going to want to set up some kind of actual perimeter fencing, which takes time and resources to assemble before getting people on site.
So that's 21 officers each day, and that's bare MINIMUM, assuming literally no one goes on breaks or has redundant coverage etc, just to keep the kids safe from outside threats.
As far as care goes, my hotel did NOT have an on site kitchen, so meal prep for the kids would involve either shipping food from off site, or building a makeshift one somewhere on premisis, which would involve additional materiel being dedicated to it, personnel to man it, logistical lines set up to accomodate it etc.
And that's for 130 kids, 260 assuming two per room. That is a SHITTON of logistics work and manpower to come up with at a moment's notice for that small number of kids. Like, as an immediate "oh shit" solution, not doable, loathe though I am to admit it.
Getting that other center up and running with better than Trump-level care is, regretfully, the best immediate short term option I can think of.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
Just because people disagree with you, doesn’t mean that they aren’t listening.
People have repeatedly agreed that this current approach is essentially the least bad option. I’m not refusing to listen, I see what you’re saying and have considered the points being raised and it’s pretty insulting that the conclusion seems to be that I’m “not listening” because I don’t simply adopt your position the moment I read it.
Would it be fair if this accusation was reversed? No, because just like everyone else here you are responding to comments and offering your opinion.
The fact that you cleared out most of my post, including Henroid talking about ducking out of the thread due to it being heartbreaking to read, tells me no, you aren’t actually listening.
The only part you cared about is the part where you felt you were being impugned instead of stopping for one damn moment, taking a step back and looking at how the rhetoric of those defending the administration’s actions literally affected one of our fellow community members here on PA
The UK manages to house their asylum seekers not in camps but in hotels and other housing
According to the National Audit Office, 48,000 asylum seekers were under new accommodation contracts as of March 2020. Of these, around 1,000 are housed in hotels each night(see point 15). Most asylum seekers have been moved from initial accommodation into longer-term housing within a few weeks. (here) .
Hotels sometimes serve as initial accommodation until a person moves to longer-term housing, though hostel-type accommodation is more commonly used than hotels. ( here ) .
The UK Home Office confirmed to Reuters by phone that the 48,000 statistic does not refer to the number of asylum seekers in hotels at any one time, but to those housed across a range of accommodation.
The UK manages to house their asylum seekers not in camps but in hotels and other housing
According to the National Audit Office, 48,000 asylum seekers were under new accommodation contracts as of March 2020. Of these, around 1,000 are housed in hotels each night(see point 15). Most asylum seekers have been moved from initial accommodation into longer-term housing within a few weeks. (here) .
Hotels sometimes serve as initial accommodation until a person moves to longer-term housing, though hostel-type accommodation is more commonly used than hotels. ( here ) .
The UK Home Office confirmed to Reuters by phone that the 48,000 statistic does not refer to the number of asylum seekers in hotels at any one time, but to those housed across a range of accommodation.
Why can’t the US?
Because the UK doesn't have a whole bunch of dependent minors they spent the last two years or so judiciously separating from their parents because The Cruelty Is The Point and a hyper-militant right wing willing to murder government officials for not having a coup.
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
I mean, are you referring to people in this thread, or in general, because, the people in this thread absolutely do acknowledge ALL of that.
Given the fact folks here kind of drove henroid (who has noted, repeatedly, in this thread and its previous iterations, that he’s Latin American and what this program signifies to him as to how this country, and even the Democrats, value him and the rest of our Latin American community) out of the thread for the time being, gonna have to ask for a bit more of expressing that acknowledgement and a little less water carrying for politicians who don’t even know we exist
No, you don't get to just use Henriod as an excuse for argument by emotion. He's not only not the only Latino on the board, his experience is hardly representative. I feel for his experience, I truly do, and yes, our country is absolutely shit towards immigrants of any color but white. The problem is, and this goes back to what I've mentioned literally for pages, is that it's reacting on emotion, not on fact. I don't have that luxury. I have actual family/friends in this very process right now (adults, not minors). I have to work with the system as presented and work towards realistic improvements, which includes acknowledging improvements that have happened, rather than flat out ignoring them, as specifically you and a handful of others have to try and score points.
Also there's expressing skepticism on harsh conditions, past or present, while presenting evidence to the contrary, and then there's expressing skepticism because, "pfft, no way, this is the BIDEN ADMINISTRATION."
This thread has given me a ton of heartache today so I'ma take a break.
And I feel like this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened, either. The memories are fuzzy, but they keep gnawing at the back of my mind that we’ve gone through this shit before where folks keep forgetting that there’s real people getting hurt by this shit.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology[/quote]
Why? Because he takes it personally? Because he is a great mascot for your point when a similar challenge has been raised by the other side? Look, nothing against Henriod, I definitively am working towards the same goals he is. I just absolutely do not have the luxury of losing focus on the end goal. Maybe when I have family/friends/clients no longer involved in it, sure.
At the end of the day, there are several tiers of problems, and ironically, Lanz, you dig at the most fundamental, without actually acknowledging it in most real conversations. My son, who is not only half latino, but visually white enough he could pass as white, has been called things like an anchor baby by my own family, and I spend a LOT of time and effort just protecting him and my daughter from these kinds of things.
If you want to get into who has the most skin in this, I'll take the fight any day of the week. If you want to get into an actual discussion about how to go forward, I'm FAR more keen on that, as it actually has a chance of improving the situation of people stuck in our shitty situation. If not, otherwise, please feel free to stick to your "leftist rage machine" to stay woke. In the interim, there is lots of actual progressive things we could work on.
Oh look, ICE used to use hotels as temporary facilities before moving victims to the camps, until everyone balked at being part of ICE’s nightmare parade:
Advocacy groups and unions are pressuring Marriott, MGM and others not to house migrants who have been arrested by Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers.
For decades, the U.S. government has occasionally detained migrants in hotels, and Acting ICE Director Matthew Albence says it might have to split up families if hotels don’t help.
It’s the latest example of a private industry caught in the political fray of an overtaxed immigration system.
...
Hotels don’t like to wade into politics. They’re used to accepting business without questions and tuning their lobby televisions to nonpolitical channels. They’re also used to working with the government, whether to host displaced flood victims, defense contractors or conferences.
But when the Trump administration announced immigration arrests targeting families the weekend of July 13 and said it might use hotels, the big companies responded. Marriott, Hilton, Choice Hotels, Best Western, Wyndham, Hyatt, IHG and MGM Resorts all released statements saying they don’t want their hotels used to detain migrants.
Hotels felt pressure from their unions — which represent thousands of immigrants — as well as from customers angered by recent scenes of overcrowding and other squalid conditions at detention facilities.
“Hotels are meant to welcome people from all over the world, not jail them,” said D. Taylor, president of the hotel workers union Unite Here.
The companies also needed to reassure customers that their properties are safe and not overrun by armed guards watching migrants, said Daniel Mount, an associate professor of hospitality management at Pennsylvania State University.
So far, there’s been little evidence of widespread arrests.
But the hotels’ stance frustrates Albence. He said ICE uses hotels “strategically” to keep families together before transferring them to detention centers or deporting them. As of July 16, the agency had 53,459 individuals in custody, including 311 members of families.
“If hotels or other places do not want to allow us to utilize that, they’re almost forcing us into a situation where we’re going to have to take one of the parents and put them in custody and separate them from the rest of their families,” Albence told The Associated Press in a recent interview.
So America is able to house folks in hotels before moving them to camps, but somehow not the reverse. Strange
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
edited February 2021
Yeah that’s another reason hotels are largely untenable in the US.
And it says right in the quoted bit, they used them “to keep families together before transferring them to detention centers or deporting them.”
We are talking about unaccompanied minors or minors who were intentionally separated from their families as an additional cruelty.
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“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
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So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
Just because people disagree with you, doesn’t mean that they aren’t listening.
People have repeatedly agreed that this current approach is essentially the least bad option. I’m not refusing to listen, I see what you’re saying and have considered the points being raised and it’s pretty insulting that the conclusion seems to be that I’m “not listening” because I don’t simply adopt your position the moment I read it.
Would it be fair if this accusation was reversed? No, because just like everyone else here you are responding to comments and offering your opinion.
The fact that you cleared out most of my post, including Henroid talking about ducking out of the thread due to it being heartbreaking to read, tells me no, you aren’t actually listening.
The only part you cared about is the part where you felt you were being impugned instead of stopping for one damn moment, taking a step back and looking at how the rhetoric of those defending the administration’s actions literally affected one of our fellow community members here on PA
I cleared out the rest of the post because I wanted to make a specific point about what I left in, that’s all. It’s not just you, there seems to be a repeated assumption that anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with your framing, characterizations, and conclusions is simply “not listening” as if you are so completely right all people should have to do is read what you’re saying and a wave of realization will just wash over them, so anyone who doesn’t agree can only be not listening.
Henroid is an adult, and can choose to be a part of the discussion if and when they want to. I care about the well being of these immigrants as much as Henroid and you do. We differ in opinion on how to best care for them. If that is distressing, then I’m sorry for that, but it’s not going to make me change my mind.
Yeah that’s another reason hotels are largely u tenable in the US.
They were balking because ICE was arresting folks to send them to the camps.
Moving folks out of camps and into more hospitable housing like a hotel is not the same thing, because you’re moving them out of a detention camp. Unless you want to argue that no matter where they end up, these people are going to be treated like detainees instead of human beings.
Lanz, per your link on the UK, the hotels are specifically temporary until they can be moved into more suitable housing.
Again, there is literally no dispute that improvements need to be made. Not one.
But as an emergency "Oh shit" measure, moving people into housing suited for the care of a large group of people when you have a large group of people is far from the worst idea.
I am still at a loss as to why it seems to be seemingly impossible to demand of the government it house people with the modicum of humanity of, say, a dormitory.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
I mean, are you referring to people in this thread, or in general, because, the people in this thread absolutely do acknowledge ALL of that.
Given the fact folks here kind of drove henroid (who has noted, repeatedly, in this thread and its previous iterations, that he’s Latin American and what this program signifies to him as to how this country, and even the Democrats, value him and the rest of our Latin American community) out of the thread for the time being, gonna have to ask for a bit more of expressing that acknowledgement and a little less water carrying for politicians who don’t even know we exist
No, you don't get to just use Henriod as an excuse for argument by emotion. He's not only not the only Latino on the board, his experience is hardly representative. I feel for his experience, I truly do, and yes, our country is absolutely shit towards immigrants of any color but white. The problem is, and this goes back to what I've mentioned literally for pages, is that it's reacting on emotion, not on fact. I don't have that luxury. I have actual family/friends in this very process right now (adults, not minors). I have to work with the system as presented and work towards realistic improvements, which includes acknowledging improvements that have happened, rather than flat out ignoring them, as specifically you and a handful of others have to try and score points.
Also there's expressing skepticism on harsh conditions, past or present, while presenting evidence to the contrary, and then there's expressing skepticism because, "pfft, no way, this is the BIDEN ADMINISTRATION."
This thread has given me a ton of heartache today so I'ma take a break.
And I feel like this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened, either. The memories are fuzzy, but they keep gnawing at the back of my mind that we’ve gone through this shit before where folks keep forgetting that there’s real people getting hurt by this shit.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
Why? Because he takes it personally? Because he is a great mascot for your point when a similar challenge has been raised by the other side? Look, nothing against Henriod, I definitively am working towards the same goals he is. I just absolutely do not have the luxury of losing focus on the end goal. Maybe when I have family/friends/clients no longer involved in it, sure.
At the end of the day, there are several tiers of problems, and ironically, Lanz, you dig at the most fundamental, without actually acknowledging it in most real conversations. My son, who is not only half latino, but visually white enough he could pass as white, has been called things like an anchor baby by my own family, and I spend a LOT of time and effort just protecting him and my daughter from these kinds of things.
If you want to get into who has the most skin in this, I'll take the fight any day of the week. If you want to get into an actual discussion about how to go forward, I'm FAR more keen on that, as it actually has a chance of improving the situation of people stuck in our shitty situation. If not, otherwise, please feel free to stick to your "leftist rage machine" to stay woke. In the interim, there is lots of actual progressive things we could work on.
And you don’t get to make the argument that everyone is just being emotional because they disagree with you. There’s also the fact that, unless you’re secretly Joe Biden, or an upper level administrator within HHS, you have vastly limited resources to handle the meat grinder of our immigration system.
But people like Biden? People in his administration? they do. The last two decades of this country has demonstrated that the powers of the executive are shockingly vast, so long as the executive actually wishes to exercise them (thanks to congress ceding much of its own authority to the executive).
These things can be done, can be fixed, but those with the power choose not to. They’ll use it for a myriad of other purposes, but helping immigrants? Apparently a bridge too far. Remember, Biden told Latin American activists to vote for Trump when they told him his and Obama’s policies had been hurting the Latin American community in the US with their deportation regimens. The man whom we are being asked to have faith in had the cruelty and temerity to tell a vulnerable populace who questioned him to vote for their oppressor instead
As for your own personal story, I’m glad to know you’ve got skin in the game here, and that your intentions are well placed. But outside of your family, your friends? There’s so many more people out there that you cant personally protect, folks who are gonna be at the mercy of this system. And the only way we can protect them is to fight on their behalf, to agitate for change, to speak out against not even quarter-measures. That isn’t something to deride as a leftist rage machine, to deride as being “woke;” the only way to stop systemic violence against minorities by the state is to change the system that commits that violence. We cannot change those systems while at the same time making excuses for them.
EDIT: trying to find the broken tag
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The UK manages to house their asylum seekers not in camps but in hotels and other housing
According to the National Audit Office, 48,000 asylum seekers were under new accommodation contracts as of March 2020. Of these, around 1,000 are housed in hotels each night(see point 15). Most asylum seekers have been moved from initial accommodation into longer-term housing within a few weeks. (here) .
Hotels sometimes serve as initial accommodation until a person moves to longer-term housing, though hostel-type accommodation is more commonly used than hotels. ( here ) .
The UK Home Office confirmed to Reuters by phone that the 48,000 statistic does not refer to the number of asylum seekers in hotels at any one time, but to those housed across a range of accommodation.
Why can’t the US?
Because the UK doesn't have a whole bunch of dependent minors they spent the last two years or so judiciously separating from their parents because The Cruelty Is The Point and a hyper-militant right wing willing to murder government officials for not having a coup.
US exceptionalism at it's fucking finest, I know.
Also, the UK does everything to ensure that as few refugees as possible actually make it to the islands.
A better comparison is Australia. Except their refugees are basically in custody in horrific conditions for an extreme long term, and ours are now for an average of 40 days, per the original article.
There are very few countries that have welcoming immigration systems largely due to reactionary views on immigration and a lack of willingness for people to stick their neck out and defend immigration and such as a good thing.
The UK manages to house their asylum seekers not in camps but in hotels and other housing
According to the National Audit Office, 48,000 asylum seekers were under new accommodation contracts as of March 2020. Of these, around 1,000 are housed in hotels each night(see point 15). Most asylum seekers have been moved from initial accommodation into longer-term housing within a few weeks. (here) .
Hotels sometimes serve as initial accommodation until a person moves to longer-term housing, though hostel-type accommodation is more commonly used than hotels. ( here ) .
The UK Home Office confirmed to Reuters by phone that the 48,000 statistic does not refer to the number of asylum seekers in hotels at any one time, but to those housed across a range of accommodation.
Why can’t the US?
Are those thousand asylum seekers in the UK adults or unsupervised children? Because there is a pretty big difference. Most people wouldn’t have a problem leaving an adult alone in a hotel room. Many more would say leaving a child alone in a hotel room is a bad idea.
Lanz, per your link on the UK, the hotels are specifically temporary until they can be moved into more suitable housing.
Again, there is literally no dispute that improvements need to be made. Not one.
But as an emergency "Oh shit" measure, moving people into housing suited for the care of a large group of people when you have a large group of people is far from the worst idea.
The hotels are just a temporary measure until they can be moved into more suitable housing?
Yet, in this thread I have been told that these detention centers are okay because they're just there temporary until the children are processed and able to be released to a guardian. A temporary measure until they can be moved into more suitable housing, if you will.
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Hard disagree. We have had a multi page semantic debate on the usage of concentration camp. We haven’t even started debating how and why the Biden admin has failed in it’s election promises
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What would you have us do, when a facility that was closed last year is being reopened? Simply let it slide by without comment?
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Reopening old centres is not about fixed and perfect.
I still haven’t heard a compelling argument why hotels aren’t a better solution.
Right now there are thousands of hotels and motels going to the wall due to the pandemic. I’m sure they would love to cut a deal with the government and get some money in that way.
We also need to put in the front of our minds, these people have done nothing wrong. They have committed no crimes. Many of them are fleeing conditions created by the US’ imperialism.
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There have been multiple people who've put forth a variety of reasons why hotels may not be better. Obviously there's no objective "this number shows which is better" thing, but it's not like there are no trade-offs here.
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Not enough social workers to provide supervision in an open hotel environment, almost guaranteed security issues the moment an individual hotel is found to be sheltering immigrants leading for a need for enhanced security which, speaking as a former hotelier would be a nightmare, just off the top of my head.
If we had the ability to materialize the staff required for such an operation, 110% let's fuckin go, but that's not going to be happening any time soon.
In the meantime, moving from cages to dorms is a step in the right direction, even if it isn't NEARLY as large a step as I'd prefer. After consistent backsliding I'll take movement in the other direction 35 days into a new administration. Let's see if the momentum holds.
...well, kind of. They used hotel buildings and staffed them with what might have been ICE chuds. It's hard to tell since they won't say who they work(ed?) for.
If the timestamp doesn't work, skip to 16:22
Plus China has unsurprisingly been making inroads with many South American countries after decades of destabilisation, coups and and training of death squads by the United States, setting the region up to be one of the next hotspots to be targeted.
Several have already changed recognising Beijing as China’s capital, and Chinese manufacturing (Huawei, etc) are being used for infrastructure/governmental equipment.
IIRC much like Australia, China wanting to buy minerals was a salve for a lot of the economies there during the global financial crisis.
These refugees aren’t coming out of nowhere.
Or why it is so hard for many to recognize the white supremacy inherent to our detainment model. It is, a peculiar practice, that white immigrants do not seem to wind up in these places.
I’d like to know your calculus on your social worker calculation, I don’t know how it is inherently worse than in the camp. Unless you are suggesting that in the camps the kids need to be forcibly separated in a panopticon style set up? If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying), then we shouldn’t be using it because we need to be holding ourselves to a higher standard of care
With the hotel thing, we have some precedent in countries that covid under control. Australia & NZ use the hotels to house people flying into the countries. This is HUGELY unpopular, as people see these arrivals as a threat to our covid-free status. The only thing that has stopped it being riots in the streets is people seem to grasp that we are bound by international law to accept the people coming in and majority are returning citizens. They have security cordons and all the rest of it set up; it’s a non-issue though there have been a few demonstrations and such going on
But yeah hey I agree with you let’s keep it moving, let’s keep demanding more! The Overton window needs to be dragged kicking and screaming to the left
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When the entire nation is built around white supremacy the foundation for progress is a mixture of lava and cow shit. Over half a million people in America are homeless and the American prison system is... *gestures wildly* - we're not good at taking care of people.
At the risk of being slightly off topic but a really useful piece of info nonetheless; the most important factor in Australia avoiding the ‘08 GFC was a large cash payment made to each citizen. The treasurer, Wayne Swan, was rightly recognised as the best in the world for his work. Check him out! Lots of very Interesting reading to be down in this space
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I mean, are you referring to people in this thread, or in general, because, the people in this thread absolutely do acknowledge ALL of that.
No I’m aware of that
I perhaps should have noted that curious it’s was directed more... locally than the wide, garbage gestalt of our settler colony nation
Given the fact folks here kind of drove henroid (who has noted, repeatedly, in this thread and its previous iterations, that he’s Latin American and what this program signifies to him as to how this country, and even the Democrats, value him and the rest of our Latin American community) out of the thread for the time being, gonna have to ask for a bit more of expressing that acknowledgement and a little less water carrying for politicians who don’t even know we exist
And I feel like this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened, either. The memories are fuzzy, but they keep gnawing at the back of my mind that we’ve gone through this shit before where folks keep forgetting that there’s real people getting hurt by this shit.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology
I have literally no idea where you got the idea I was suggesting a panopticon, forcibly separating anyone etc. Please point out exactly in my post I said that. If you cannot, don't try to set it up as what I'm suggesting and begin arguing against it, and respond to the points in my post.
With regards to the calculations, from enlightenedbum earlier in the thread:
Not to mention you're going to need adult supervision, caregivers etc. The hotel solution is a super great end-state to be in once the infrastructure to sustain that solution is in place. But we're still in "It has been just over a month since we were literally locking children in cages, and while we've stopped locking up more kids, there are still an awful lot of kids in cages right now" crisis mode.
Hence my comment about momentum. Comprehensive reform is absolutely needed; to analogize a bit we've got some nasty cancer that needs long term treatment, but we have a whole bunch of sucking chest wounds that need treating right now.
We already know. You don't have to tell us. Talking about the reality of things isn't denying that things are bad.
1) They're reopening it under new management, which in your case appears to mean nothing as you've already assumed both sides are the same
2) The only reason it's being reopened is because they actually give a shit about giving people space due to Covid. Their permanent centers, which are following Covid guidelines, are at capacity. Per the article, the other solution that there's an already established process for would be to send them to Border Patrol jails.
3) They're using an existing facility because the processes for using it are already established. If they were to attempt to use hotels instead, they'd have to invent hundreds of new processes to safely and humanely deal with the kids. Maybe they should be working on setting up those processes right now so months down the road they can go ahead and do that, but right now, a month into the administration, they don't have that set up and kids need to be put somewhere right now.
You need to relax, the very next sentence was “If it is the latter (not saying that IS what you’re saying)”. My point, in direct response to what you were saying, if we cannot do hotels because we don’t have the people power now, what is different about the detention centres that makes them work correctly? If the answer is it’s just as fucked in the detention centre, at least do it somewhere more homely like a hotel!
If we have some resources available, the admin could show people they are serious by setting up pilot programs and getting the ball rolling.
The burden is on the establishment to demonstrate they are not simply co-opting the words of a movement whilst still going about their business as an oppressive imperialist state. They have not done a very good job disproving this, given their history
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Just because people disagree with you, doesn’t mean that they aren’t listening.
People have repeatedly agreed that this current approach is essentially the least bad option. I’m not refusing to listen, I see what you’re saying and have considered the points being raised and it’s pretty insulting that the conclusion seems to be that I’m “not listening” because I don’t simply adopt your position the moment I read it.
Would it be fair if this accusation was reversed? No, because just like everyone else here you are responding to comments and offering your opinion.
Considering how the last N pages of this thread have gone, where someone says something and the next post a strawman is constructed and argued against, I disagree that I was overreacting. I'm gonna pretty forcefully shut that down, because even asking the question of "Are you suggesting X heinous thing" or "It's obviously only Y wow why can't you see that" is kinda rude in my opinion.
And yes, I agree on the "if resources are available they should be used immediately" point which is why I'm personally not very alarmed by them spooling up a closed center that has been used in the past immediately so things are not overcrowded. Is it ideal? No, but neither is an improvised tourniquet when you've lost a hand, but it's better than the alternative of "wait for someone with a proper set of hemostats and sutures" and it is close to hand right now.
As far as the conditions inside go, that's one of those "Verify verify verify" things for me. I hope the Biden Administration doesn't score a massive own goal on said conditions but... We'll see. I will happily excoriate the Administration if they fuck up that badly.
The floated ideal solution of "If you are an unaccompanied minor, you get a room to yourself in a hotel with access to a variety of social services" will require a lot more than just pilot programs and definitely involve Congress to get it set up, but I am totally down for that as an end goal.
I still don’t understand why they have the resources to have the children in detention centres but not in hotels. Let’s assume the resourcing stays the same between the two how is the hotel situation uniquely unable to provide for these children?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
My personal opinion is that there has been a lot of hand waving to dismiss making improvements, without a lot of real world evidence to back it up
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
We have a responsibility to reunite these kids with their families, and keep them safe and cared for until we can do so.
It’s an ugly reality but a facility that is best suited for that purpose is a detention center, not a hotel where anyone with a credit card can come and go.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
It is tenable, many countries are using hotels as secure facilities to contain new arrivals to the country for a covid quarantines. This would be been less restrictive than that
The hotels are used exclusively for housing asylum seekers. Lord knows they’re not getting much business
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
So from my personal experience as a hotel manager, they are NOT designed for the care and security of a large group, they're designed for an individual/small number of individuals.
Let's talk security first. Since any concentration of immigrants being housed at a hotel is going to get a certain amount of the populous IRRATIONALLY ANGRY and any hotel is going to by definition be in an area easily accessible by the public, you're going to need to have a considerable security presence. While again, not necessarily ideal, considering we just had people invade the Capitol Building I'm going to assume we want armed officers in this case since y'know... said IRRATIONALY ANGRY populace tried to assassinate members of the government that they had elected.
This is a Very Hard Problem. I'll use the 130 room I used to manage as an example; it had a combination of interior and exterior access rooms with limited security camera coverage, primarily in the lobby, with a large number of entry points to the actual banks of rooms on various floors. Just to keep the three main entryways safe (assuming we're ignoring the fire exits that could be entered fairly easily) that's 3x officers times three for three shifts. Then you're going to want people at the entry points to the parking lot to stop vehicled and check credentials etc, which for mine would be 4x officers, two at each entry, again x3 for 3 shifts. You're also going to want to set up some kind of actual perimeter fencing, which takes time and resources to assemble before getting people on site.
So that's 21 officers each day, and that's bare MINIMUM, assuming literally no one goes on breaks or has redundant coverage etc, just to keep the kids safe from outside threats.
As far as care goes, my hotel did NOT have an on site kitchen, so meal prep for the kids would involve either shipping food from off site, or building a makeshift one somewhere on premisis, which would involve additional materiel being dedicated to it, personnel to man it, logistical lines set up to accomodate it etc.
And that's for 130 kids, 260 assuming two per room. That is a SHITTON of logistics work and manpower to come up with at a moment's notice for that small number of kids. Like, as an immediate "oh shit" solution, not doable, loathe though I am to admit it.
Getting that other center up and running with better than Trump-level care is, regretfully, the best immediate short term option I can think of.
The fact that you cleared out most of my post, including Henroid talking about ducking out of the thread due to it being heartbreaking to read, tells me no, you aren’t actually listening.
The only part you cared about is the part where you felt you were being impugned instead of stopping for one damn moment, taking a step back and looking at how the rhetoric of those defending the administration’s actions literally affected one of our fellow community members here on PA
The UK manages to house their asylum seekers not in camps but in hotels and other housing
Why can’t the US?
Because the UK doesn't have a whole bunch of dependent minors they spent the last two years or so judiciously separating from their parents because The Cruelty Is The Point and a hyper-militant right wing willing to murder government officials for not having a coup.
US exceptionalism at it's fucking finest, I know.
No, you don't get to just use Henriod as an excuse for argument by emotion. He's not only not the only Latino on the board, his experience is hardly representative. I feel for his experience, I truly do, and yes, our country is absolutely shit towards immigrants of any color but white. The problem is, and this goes back to what I've mentioned literally for pages, is that it's reacting on emotion, not on fact. I don't have that luxury. I have actual family/friends in this very process right now (adults, not minors). I have to work with the system as presented and work towards realistic improvements, which includes acknowledging improvements that have happened, rather than flat out ignoring them, as specifically you and a handful of others have to try and score points.
And I feel like this isn’t the first time shit like this has happened, either. The memories are fuzzy, but they keep gnawing at the back of my mind that we’ve gone through this shit before where folks keep forgetting that there’s real people getting hurt by this shit.
So I don’t fucking know anymore. We raised and explained our points multiple times, folks didn’t want to listen, and at the very least it feels like some folks owe, at the very least, Henroid a goddamn apology[/quote]
Why? Because he takes it personally? Because he is a great mascot for your point when a similar challenge has been raised by the other side? Look, nothing against Henriod, I definitively am working towards the same goals he is. I just absolutely do not have the luxury of losing focus on the end goal. Maybe when I have family/friends/clients no longer involved in it, sure.
At the end of the day, there are several tiers of problems, and ironically, Lanz, you dig at the most fundamental, without actually acknowledging it in most real conversations. My son, who is not only half latino, but visually white enough he could pass as white, has been called things like an anchor baby by my own family, and I spend a LOT of time and effort just protecting him and my daughter from these kinds of things.
If you want to get into who has the most skin in this, I'll take the fight any day of the week. If you want to get into an actual discussion about how to go forward, I'm FAR more keen on that, as it actually has a chance of improving the situation of people stuck in our shitty situation. If not, otherwise, please feel free to stick to your "leftist rage machine" to stay woke. In the interim, there is lots of actual progressive things we could work on.
https://apnews.com/article/46e12a11287d49c1ba5a554fc222be81
So America is able to house folks in hotels before moving them to camps, but somehow not the reverse. Strange
And it says right in the quoted bit, they used them “to keep families together before transferring them to detention centers or deporting them.”
We are talking about unaccompanied minors or minors who were intentionally separated from their families as an additional cruelty.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I cleared out the rest of the post because I wanted to make a specific point about what I left in, that’s all. It’s not just you, there seems to be a repeated assumption that anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with your framing, characterizations, and conclusions is simply “not listening” as if you are so completely right all people should have to do is read what you’re saying and a wave of realization will just wash over them, so anyone who doesn’t agree can only be not listening.
Henroid is an adult, and can choose to be a part of the discussion if and when they want to. I care about the well being of these immigrants as much as Henroid and you do. We differ in opinion on how to best care for them. If that is distressing, then I’m sorry for that, but it’s not going to make me change my mind.
They were balking because ICE was arresting folks to send them to the camps.
Moving folks out of camps and into more hospitable housing like a hotel is not the same thing, because you’re moving them out of a detention camp. Unless you want to argue that no matter where they end up, these people are going to be treated like detainees instead of human beings.
Again, there is literally no dispute that improvements need to be made. Not one.
But as an emergency "Oh shit" measure, moving people into housing suited for the care of a large group of people when you have a large group of people is far from the worst idea.
And you don’t get to make the argument that everyone is just being emotional because they disagree with you. There’s also the fact that, unless you’re secretly Joe Biden, or an upper level administrator within HHS, you have vastly limited resources to handle the meat grinder of our immigration system.
But people like Biden? People in his administration? they do. The last two decades of this country has demonstrated that the powers of the executive are shockingly vast, so long as the executive actually wishes to exercise them (thanks to congress ceding much of its own authority to the executive).
These things can be done, can be fixed, but those with the power choose not to. They’ll use it for a myriad of other purposes, but helping immigrants? Apparently a bridge too far. Remember, Biden told Latin American activists to vote for Trump when they told him his and Obama’s policies had been hurting the Latin American community in the US with their deportation regimens. The man whom we are being asked to have faith in had the cruelty and temerity to tell a vulnerable populace who questioned him to vote for their oppressor instead
As for your own personal story, I’m glad to know you’ve got skin in the game here, and that your intentions are well placed. But outside of your family, your friends? There’s so many more people out there that you cant personally protect, folks who are gonna be at the mercy of this system. And the only way we can protect them is to fight on their behalf, to agitate for change, to speak out against not even quarter-measures. That isn’t something to deride as a leftist rage machine, to deride as being “woke;” the only way to stop systemic violence against minorities by the state is to change the system that commits that violence. We cannot change those systems while at the same time making excuses for them.
EDIT: trying to find the broken tag
Also, the UK does everything to ensure that as few refugees as possible actually make it to the islands.
A better comparison is Australia. Except their refugees are basically in custody in horrific conditions for an extreme long term, and ours are now for an average of 40 days, per the original article.
The hotels are just a temporary measure until they can be moved into more suitable housing?
Yet, in this thread I have been told that these detention centers are okay because they're just there temporary until the children are processed and able to be released to a guardian. A temporary measure until they can be moved into more suitable housing, if you will.
The more humane solution is better.
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