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US Immigration Policy - Travel advisory: don't go to the South if you're Hispanic/Latino

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Posts

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Not to be a downer, but if Trump decides "fuck you, were' doing it anyway" and tells his admin to ignore the ruling, what can actually be done at that point? The Senate ain't going to impeach him and the DOJ has outright stated he can't be indicted.

    Contempt of court.

    Right. Whether the president is subject to contempt of court is arguable, but the secretary of commerce and attorney general are sure as fuck subject to it, and most likely don’t want to get thrown into a jail cell until they order the proper census forms printed.

    Elvenshae
  • SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    Not to be a downer, but if Trump decides "fuck you, were' doing it anyway" and tells his admin to ignore the ruling, what can actually be done at that point? The Senate ain't going to impeach him and the DOJ has outright stated he can't be indicted.

    Things are already kind of scary, but if the President completely ignores a court order and gets away with it... he'll do it again.

    It's one thing to ignore subpoenas and claim phantom exec privilege, but to have a judge tell you "don't do that" and you go ahead and do it any way... that goes to bad places really quick.

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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Ladai wrote: »
    It may or may not surprise everyone to learn that Trump tweeted about an hour ago that his administration is in fact "moving forward" on including the citizenship question in the census, contradicting comments from his own commerce secretary and the department of justice. And also in violation of the Supreme Court, I guess?

    I know we're discouraged from posting every single dumb tweet the guy manages to shake out of his pant leg, and it could just be more blather for the base, but it seems like something that's worth keeping an eye on.

    The census is already getting printed without it. It's too late unless they pull a rabbit out of their ass.

    Edit: beat'd

    Or put a flyer in the envelope...

    SCOTUS already ruled "nope" on this. So.....
    Viskod wrote: »
    They can't add the question to the original form but they can put it on its own form and send it with the census.

    They can also add the question to the online census.

    So, which is it?

    Both. The SCOTUS ruled they could not add it to the census form. They did not rule that they couldn't include it separately, and the ruling didn't apply to the online census.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Ladai wrote: »
    It may or may not surprise everyone to learn that Trump tweeted about an hour ago that his administration is in fact "moving forward" on including the citizenship question in the census, contradicting comments from his own commerce secretary and the department of justice. And also in violation of the Supreme Court, I guess?

    I know we're discouraged from posting every single dumb tweet the guy manages to shake out of his pant leg, and it could just be more blather for the base, but it seems like something that's worth keeping an eye on.

    The census is already getting printed without it. It's too late unless they pull a rabbit out of their ass.

    Edit: beat'd

    Or put a flyer in the envelope...

    SCOTUS already ruled "nope" on this. So.....
    Viskod wrote: »
    They can't add the question to the original form but they can put it on its own form and send it with the census.

    They can also add the question to the online census.

    So, which is it?

    Both. The SCOTUS ruled they could not add it to the census form. They did not rule that they couldn't include it separately, and the ruling didn't apply to the online census.

    Lower court is free to interpret it as also covering those cases though. Especially when they're obvious attempts to get around the ruling.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular

    God I know I should look at this, but I just can't, my heart can't take it, these fucking monsters I swear to god.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I looked.

    It is as heartbreaking as you imagine.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    Have any State Actors, in the US or otherwise, publicly declared that they are considering, or have already, filed a request with the International Criminal Court's Prosecutor to commence a Preliminary Examination of CBP and ICE's conduct for their apparent violations of the Rome Statute?

    If not, maybe it is time to start campaigning that this happen? Heck, I believe any member state of the UN can get the ball rolling on that... maybe I need to write my MP again.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Have any State Actors, in the US or otherwise, publicly declared that they are considering, or have already, filed a request with the International Criminal Court's Prosecutor to commence a Preliminary Examination of CBP and ICE's conduct for their apparent violations of the Rome Statute?

    If not, maybe it is time to start campaigning that this happen? Heck, I believe any member state of the UN can get the ball rolling on that... maybe I need to write my MP again.

    US is not part of the ICC.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    Have any State Actors, in the US or otherwise, publicly declared that they are considering, or have already, filed a request with the International Criminal Court's Prosecutor to commence a Preliminary Examination of CBP and ICE's conduct for their apparent violations of the Rome Statute?

    If not, maybe it is time to start campaigning that this happen? Heck, I believe any member state of the UN can get the ball rolling on that... maybe I need to write my MP again.

    US is not part of the ICC.

    No, but Canada is, and Obama did commit, in the past, that while the US may not be members, they would cooperate with any investigations the ICC may conduct. I know that may sound laughable now, but an announcement that the ICC is considering a Preliminary Examination in US conduct would still make international headlines and could be another pillar in treating this conduct with the seriousness it deserves.

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    i dunno if you noticed but obama's not there anymore and things he said that aren't laws don't really apply anymore

    hell, even a bunch of the stuff he said that is laws doesn't apply anymore!

    Dehumanized on
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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    Ladai wrote: »
    It may or may not surprise everyone to learn that Trump tweeted about an hour ago that his administration is in fact "moving forward" on including the citizenship question in the census, contradicting comments from his own commerce secretary and the department of justice. And also in violation of the Supreme Court, I guess?

    I know we're discouraged from posting every single dumb tweet the guy manages to shake out of his pant leg, and it could just be more blather for the base, but it seems like something that's worth keeping an eye on.

    The census is already getting printed without it. It's too late unless they pull a rabbit out of their ass.

    Edit: beat'd

    Or put a flyer in the envelope...

    SCOTUS already ruled "nope" on this. So.....
    Viskod wrote: »
    They can't add the question to the original form but they can put it on its own form and send it with the census.

    They can also add the question to the online census.

    So, which is it?

    Both. The SCOTUS ruled they could not add it to the census form. They did not rule that they couldn't include it separately, and the ruling didn't apply to the online census.

    Lower court is free to interpret it as also covering those cases though. Especially when they're obvious attempts to get around the ruling.

    Absolutely, and either case would be instant lawsuit. But that’s the only two things they can try.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
  • mrondeaumrondeau Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Have any State Actors, in the US or otherwise, publicly declared that they are considering, or have already, filed a request with the International Criminal Court's Prosecutor to commence a Preliminary Examination of CBP and ICE's conduct for their apparent violations of the Rome Statute?

    If not, maybe it is time to start campaigning that this happen? Heck, I believe any member state of the UN can get the ball rolling on that... maybe I need to write my MP again.

    US is not part of the ICC.

    No, but Canada is, and Obama did commit, in the past, that while the US may not be members, they would cooperate with any investigations the ICC may conduct. I know that may sound laughable now, but an announcement that the ICC is considering a Preliminary Examination in US conduct would still make international headlines and could be another pillar in treating this conduct with the seriousness it deserves.

    Sadly, the ICC doesn't work that way. It has no jurisdiction over non-members. And even for members, all internal recourses have to be exhausted first.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    Henroid wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    Not to be a downer, but if Trump decides "fuck you, were' doing it anyway" and tells his admin to ignore the ruling, what can actually be done at that point? The Senate ain't going to impeach him and the DOJ has outright stated he can't be indicted.

    Probably nothing directly to POTUS, but anyone involved with the census that contributes to creating/disseminating copies of the census questionnaire with that question included could face prosecution.
    It's one of the easier positions he's had RE: pushing to do an illegal thing but other people are technically the ones taking the fall for him. Though it seems like, in this instance, they aren't willing to try.

    Unless Barr gets involved on the DOJ end of things.

    Well scratch that, they've been ordered to try. They are desperately pleading to the current judge that they plan on running new language past SCOTUS first.

    Which isn't really how that works but none of this is how any of it is supposed to work.

    It'll be interesting to find out how many forms have been printed that will need to be scrapped.

    Edit: Sourcing is from the Twitters but via reporters on twitters rather than randoms. I'll just point you towards NPR's Census guy:


    Interesting tweets surround this one.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Fencingsax
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    Their determination is... I don't want to say "impressive", so let's go with "telling". They really want to do this thing.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    So they are still going forward with the citizenship question except they aren't? I'm so fucking confused.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    So they are still going forward with the citizenship question except they aren't? I'm so fucking confused.

    They are trying to figure out how to without all being thrown in prison for contempt.

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    Gnome-Interruptus
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Fucking unbelievable

    The Supreme Court said no

    It doesn’t get any clearer than that

    There isn’t a Supremer Court to appeal it to

    It’s done

    Fuck off

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    青!
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    It just feels like we were told "no we aren't pursuing this" and then Trump said "oh we're still doing that" and either he let slip their plan to do it anyway and dare the court to do something about it, or he was just trying to placate the maga set without realizing that his words have consequences.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Fucking unbelievable

    The Supreme Court said no

    It doesn’t get any clearer than that

    There isn’t a Supremer Court to appeal it to

    It’s done

    Fuck off

    But Trump says...

    King or President?

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    But their boss has ordered them to make it happen. Somehow.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Fucking unbelievable

    The Supreme Court said no

    It doesn’t get any clearer than that

    There isn’t a Supremer Court to appeal it to

    It’s done

    Fuck off

    Well the supreme court didn't specifically say no, so here we are.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    But their boss has ordered them to make it happen. Somehow.

    You know what the moral thing to do when you are ordered to do something illegal/unethical by your boss is?

    Try to figure out how to do it without getting in trouble!

    Fuck’s sake. Just tell him no. The court said we can’t, so I won’t. Maybe you’ll get fired but take a goddamn stand for something.

    I’m tired of winning, now.

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  • Emerlmaster999Emerlmaster999 Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    It just feels like we were told "no we aren't pursuing this" and then Trump said "oh we're still doing that" and either he let slip their plan to do it anyway and dare the court to do something about it, or he was just trying to placate the maga set without realizing that his words have consequences.

    He's avoided consequences for seven decades, he absolutely does not know that actions and words have meaning and consequences.

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  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    It just feels like we were told "no we aren't pursuing this" and then Trump said "oh we're still doing that" and either he let slip their plan to do it anyway and dare the court to do something about it, or he was just trying to placate the maga set without realizing that his words have consequences.

    Could be that someone simply told him “no” and he’s not capable of understanding/accepting it after a lifetime of bulldozing anything that tried to tell him he couldn’t do something.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    It just feels like we were told "no we aren't pursuing this" and then Trump said "oh we're still doing that" and either he let slip their plan to do it anyway and dare the court to do something about it, or he was just trying to placate the maga set without realizing that his words have consequences.

    Could be that someone simply told him “no” and he’s not capable of understanding/accepting it after a lifetime of bulldozing anything that tried to tell him he couldn’t do something.

    No I honestly think the admin had some other plan that Trump gave the game away on. I don't think anyone in his admin had any intention not to put a question on that census. They just were hoping for forgiveness over permission.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    Einzel
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular


    Sounds like they’re putting it on there anyway.

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    I feel like...I don't care if you're just some career lawyer or administrator doing your job at this point. You made your best effort, it failed, so it goes. But when the President directly says, ignore the laws and the courts, do it anyways...at that point you either refuse, resign, or you're just as complicit in the racist criminality as he is.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    Taramoor wrote: »


    Sounds like they’re putting it on there anyway.

    They're trying to (come up with a plausible fig leaf) and they want to. Desperately.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Scooter wrote: »
    I feel like...I don't care if you're just some career lawyer or administrator doing your job at this point. You made your best effort, it failed, so it goes. But when the President directly says, ignore the laws and the courts, do it anyways...at that point you either refuse, resign, or you're just as complicit in the racist criminality as he is.

    They support him though, and he's already pardoned people for crimes already, so you know if you get busted he'll pardon you, and the damage done with the census question will be with us long after Trump is gone.

    Like anyone working in the Trump admin/justice department are all aboard this racist train.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »


    Sounds like they’re putting it on there anyway.
    They're not putting it on, they have to come up with a legal argument to be able to put it on there. They were gonna give up but Trump's temper tantrum had the DOJ cave in and try again.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    Preacher wrote: »
    Scooter wrote: »
    I feel like...I don't care if you're just some career lawyer or administrator doing your job at this point. You made your best effort, it failed, so it goes. But when the President directly says, ignore the laws and the courts, do it anyways...at that point you either refuse, resign, or you're just as complicit in the racist criminality as he is.

    They support him though, and he's already pardoned people for crimes already, so you know if you get busted he'll pardon you, and the damage done with the census question will be with us long after Trump is gone.

    Like anyone working in the Trump admin/justice department are all aboard this racist train.

    Contempt is not pardonable. Well, it sort of it, but its like clearing the check engine light on your car, if the underlying issue isn’t resolved it recurs.

    Like if the AG was held in contempt, Trump pardons it, the next day a judge can just hold a hearing, determine the court order is still not being followed, and hold the AG in contempt again as a new instance. Contempt isn’t like a charge in the traditional criminal sense (though at some point it can become that if the judge decides you have crossed a line into criminal contempt territory). Its more like being held in jail until you make bail. Provided the offender has a reasonable ability to comply with the court order they can be held until they comply. (There was a case where a man was ordered to pay a divorce settlement he was clearly capable of paying and just refused to allow a foreign bank to transfer the money in a case of “you’re not the boss of me court”, a court ordered him to disperse the money to his ex-wife, ultimately he was held in custody for 14 years until finally the court determined he was no longer financially capable of payment due to the kind of financial issues being in prison for 14 years leads to.)

    Jealous Deva on
    Fencingsax
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    As ElJeffe (I think) said earlier in this thread, their play, among other things, is to sow confusion as to if the question is on the census or not.

    Because believing it is on the census is essentially the equivalent of it being on the census. The goal is to have people not answer the census. If they think the question is there, they won't. And that's a victory for the Administration.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    Someone chose (well, probably not all at once - sunk cost can be a hell of a thing) to do 14 years rather than accept that a court and/or his ex could tell him what to do?

    Dang. Narcissists are truly a special breed.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »


    Sounds like they’re putting it on there anyway.
    They're not putting it on, they have to come up with a legal argument to be able to put it on there. They were gonna give up but Trump's temper tantrum had the DOJ cave in and try again.

    I imagine the play here is to print the forms with the question and on there, then say it’s too late to change it.

    Either that or Trump cancels the census.

  • OghulkOghulk biggest externality low-energy economistRegistered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »


    Sounds like they’re putting it on there anyway.
    They're not putting it on, they have to come up with a legal argument to be able to put it on there. They were gonna give up but Trump's temper tantrum had the DOJ cave in and try again.

    I imagine the play here is to print the forms with the question and on there, then say it’s too late to change it.

    Either that or Trump cancels the census.

    Which very explicitly violates the Constitution

    Guess we could see what happens with that

    (Please do not post nihilism in response to this rhetorical question)

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    Elldren
  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    I don't think he can cancel it. Like someone said earlier, the census has taken place reliably every ten years since like 1790. Even the civil war didn't stop it! But, then, if there's anything I've learned over the past few years of this particular presidency, it's that expectations and constitutionality are not, in any way, safe harbors.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Fucking unbelievable

    The Supreme Court said no

    It doesn’t get any clearer than that

    There isn’t a Supremer Court to appeal it to

    It’s done

    Fuck off

    That's not really what they said. They said that they need to follow the process established, part of which is a reason for the question that isn't transparent fucking bullshit.

    They laid the god damn play out in the decision about how to "technically" comply, up to and including saying it wasn't the Courts place to make sure the reason given was much more than plausible, and these fuck muppets still can't get it right a week later. Coached by the Chief Justice and they still fuck it up and get plastered all over twitter.

    Fencingsax
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    Well, part of the issue is that (IMO) there really isn't any reason that isn't transparently racist bullshit. But their racist bosses have told them to make it happen, so round and round we go.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Taramoor wrote: »


    Sounds like they’re putting it on there anyway.
    They're not putting it on, they have to come up with a legal argument to be able to put it on there. They were gonna give up but Trump's temper tantrum had the DOJ cave in and try again.

    I imagine the play here is to print the forms with the question and on there, then say it’s too late to change it.

    Either that or Trump cancels the census.
    A fuckload of people will lose their jobs and possibly face jail time if that happens, and it's the sort of tactic the opposition party and courts are already aware of being possible. Not to mention groups like the ACLU. In the event of "put it on there anyway," the Census will get canceled by court order via lawsuit.

    But, then we have a huge side-effect in that instance because Census data goes into a lot of budget calculation, and the data on the legislative end is pretty vital.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    Fencingsax
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