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US Immigration Policy - Travel advisory: don't go to the South if you're Hispanic/Latino

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Posts

  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

    It all depends what you think they are "making them own" though. Because there's a bunch of stuff in the bill for funding various things it may not look good to vote against.

    Which is the core issue here it seems. The moderates did not want to be seen creating gridlock in Congress or refusing to fund aid money for the border or the like.

    So basically the republicans held funding hostage (remind anyone of something?) in order to keep the concentration camps running and the moderates caved.

    Maybe it's not directly Pelosi's fault, but "close the concentration camps" should be an easy sell. This is a genuine instance of stupid "political calculus" fucking people over.

    But "Close the concentration camps" isn't even close to being an option right now because republicans control the federal government and will actively oppose that option.

    At least one party understands what "actively oppose" means.

    JragghenElvenshaeJaysonFourBloodsheedStyrofoam SammichMagell
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

    It all depends what you think they are "making them own" though. Because there's a bunch of stuff in the bill for funding various things it may not look good to vote against.

    Which is the core issue here it seems. The moderates did not want to be seen creating gridlock in Congress or refusing to fund aid money for the border or the like.

    So basically the republicans held funding hostage (remind anyone of something?) in order to keep the concentration camps running and the moderates caved.

    Maybe it's not directly Pelosi's fault, but "close the concentration camps" should be an easy sell. This is a genuine instance of stupid "political calculus" fucking people over.

    But "Close the concentration camps" isn't even close to being an option right now because republicans control the federal government and will actively oppose that option.

    At least one party understands what "actively oppose" means.

    Yes it means: control the senate, presidency, and judicial branch

    Sleep on
  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    wbee62u815wj.png
    shrykeGnome-InterruptusSleepMarathonJebus314
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Democrats control the house. Republicans control the Senate. There is absolutely no reason for Democrats to not bounce back anything and everything vile to force the Senate into owning their garbage.

    All this talk about how Pelosi had no choice because Senate Democrats turned traitor is bullshit. She didn't even bother trying to fight and when people rightfully called her out on it she attacks them instead of the shitstains in the Senate

    She can't credibly bounce it back to the Senate when most of her party there is backing the bill. Senate Democrats are still Democrats. That's why House Dems then caved too. Because once the vote came in, they knew Pelosi had way less leverage on them.

    Yes she can. She just chose not to in an attempt to save political face. She put her own status and power over doing the right thing and that tells me everything about her

    She can't. It's not credible. It's not about "saving political face", it's just that the action is utterly useless. This isn't about her own status and power, it's about the fact that there is no way forward. You can't stick the GOP with the bill because your own party members are massively on board for it. And so all you are gonna do is kill the bill do to democratic infighting.

    The fact that you frame this in terms of her personal status and power vs doing the right thing is basically the entire problem here. It both ignores all the other people actually responsible for this (like, say, the Republican party), frames this as being about her personally for some inexplicable reason and is built on the presumption that killing the bill actually does much of anything. It's not gonna stop the concentration camps.

    shryke on
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular


    The Census bullshit was in here too, right?

    Fuck Bill Barr.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Oh do tell Mr Barr, do tell us what your horseshit plan is.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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    Commander ZoomElvenshaeDrovekFencingsaxElldrenJaysonFourZonugalDarkPrimusTofystedethMan in the MistsMr Ray
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    YamiB.BlackDragon480Commander ZoomDrovekkimeMorganVMild ConfusionElldrennever dieJaysonFourBloodsheedmrondeauZonugalautono-wally, erotibot300LovelyMan in the MistsKristmas Kthulhu
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

    It all depends what you think they are "making them own" though. Because there's a bunch of stuff in the bill for funding various things it may not look good to vote against.

    Which is the core issue here it seems. The moderates did not want to be seen creating gridlock in Congress or refusing to fund aid money for the border or the like.

    So basically the republicans held funding hostage (remind anyone of something?) in order to keep the concentration camps running and the moderates caved.

    Maybe it's not directly Pelosi's fault, but "close the concentration camps" should be an easy sell. This is a genuine instance of stupid "political calculus" fucking people over.

    But "Close the concentration camps" isn't even close to being an option right now because republicans control the federal government and will actively oppose that option.

    At least one party understands what "actively oppose" means.

    Yes it means: control the senate

    You need both chambers to pass something.
    Republicans understand and can actually achieve fucking up democratic legislation. Democrats can't seem to figure this out.
    Refusing to even have the PR fight over who's "fault" it is is just tacitly admitting that they can't win any messaging battles.

    If the roles were reversed Ryan would have said go fuck yourself and nothing would have passed.
    House dems abandoned their responsibility and deserve all the shit they're getting for it.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Congress does not exist in a sealed vacuum. If the problem cannot be solved within the chamber, take it out of the chamber and put it in the public eye.

    Note that Pelosi is having to do this now anyway, but from the much weaker position of trying to cover her own ass after the fact rather than taking a firm moral stand.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

    It all depends what you think they are "making them own" though. Because there's a bunch of stuff in the bill for funding various things it may not look good to vote against.

    Which is the core issue here it seems. The moderates did not want to be seen creating gridlock in Congress or refusing to fund aid money for the border or the like.

    So basically the republicans held funding hostage (remind anyone of something?) in order to keep the concentration camps running and the moderates caved.

    Maybe it's not directly Pelosi's fault, but "close the concentration camps" should be an easy sell. This is a genuine instance of stupid "political calculus" fucking people over.

    No. This is the entire problem with these argument. The camps running or not was not up for a vote. They were going to keep running regardless.

    McConnell laughed at the idea that they could force him to add any sort of oversight or specific provisions for where funding went in conference. And he was right. Because the Senate Democrats folded like a house of cards.

    SleepTicaldfjamFencingsax
  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Democrats control the house. Republicans control the Senate. There is absolutely no reason for Democrats to not bounce back anything and everything vile to force the Senate into owning their garbage.

    All this talk about how Pelosi had no choice because Senate Democrats turned traitor is bullshit. She didn't even bother trying to fight and when people rightfully called her out on it she attacks them instead of the shitstains in the Senate

    She can't credibly bounce it back to the Senate when most of her party there is backing the bill. Senate Democrats are still Democrats. That's why House Dems then caved too. Because once the vote came in, they knew Pelosi had way less leverage on them.

    Yes she can. She just chose not to in an attempt to save political face. She put her own status and power over doing the right thing and that tells me everything about her

    She can't. It's not credible. It's not about "saving political face", it's just that the action is utterly useless. This isn't about her own status and power, it's about the fact that there is no way forward. You can't stick the GOP with the bill because your own party members are massively on board for it. And so all you are gonna do is kill the bill do to democratic infighting.

    The fact that you frame this in terms of her personal status and power vs doing the right thing is basically the entire problem here. It both ignores all the other people actually responsible for this (like, say, the Republican party), frames this as being about her personally for some inexplicable reason and is built on the presumption that killing the bill actually does much of anything. It's not gonna stop the concentration camps.

    Much like McConnell she decides what comes to the floor of the House. She could have let it languish, just like he does. Instead she keeps trying to play a game that hasn't been relevant since 2016. She should have never been given back the gavel

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  • TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Oh do tell Mr Barr, do tell us what your horseshit plan is.

    Pretty sure his plan is a fancy pants, legalese-dressed-up statement that just says "The President Said So".

    VuIBhrs.png
    FencingsaxTofystedeth
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    More funding for the camps is just going to entrench it as an economic pillar, and give greater power to the monsters. We do not need for these to become too big to fail, and we don't need to create child enslavement billionaires.

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    “Go drink from the toilet” is not a funding issue

    People crammed into cells while other areas stand empty is not a funding issue

    Hate speech on a CBP Facebook group is not a funding issue

    Democratic leadership failed here because once again they decided against making an argument

    They could have said, “Recent reports of conditions in these camps are shocking and horrible. The American people will not stand for mistreating human beings on our soil, and until the camps are closed we will not vote to give CBP a single cent in funding.”

    But they didn’t.

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  • DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    Again we are acting as though conditions at the camps are a result of insufficient funding and not the actual intent.

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  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    See my previous posts on this thread for all the things they could have done other than going on record as supporting this, by voting for it.

    I mean, isn't that what we're constantly saying we need to do to the Republicans? Get them on record, "make them own it"? Well, now there are a whole bunch of D names on that record, in the wrong column.

    It all depends what you think they are "making them own" though. Because there's a bunch of stuff in the bill for funding various things it may not look good to vote against.

    Which is the core issue here it seems. The moderates did not want to be seen creating gridlock in Congress or refusing to fund aid money for the border or the like.

    So basically the republicans held funding hostage (remind anyone of something?) in order to keep the concentration camps running and the moderates caved.

    Maybe it's not directly Pelosi's fault, but "close the concentration camps" should be an easy sell. This is a genuine instance of stupid "political calculus" fucking people over.

    No. This is the entire problem with these argument. The camps running or not was not up for a vote. They were going to keep running regardless.

    McConnell laughed at the idea that they could force him to add any sort of oversight or specific provisions for where funding went in conference. And he was right. Because the Senate Democrats folded like a house of cards.

    so send them back a letter saying 'tough shit, we require oversight' and keep doing so forever.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Congress does not exist in a sealed vacuum. If the problem cannot be solved within the chamber, take it out of the chamber and put it in the public eye.

    Note that Pelosi is having to do this now anyway, but from the much weaker position of trying to cover her own ass after the fact rather than taking a firm moral stand.


    This is a good point.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    Their survival is not what was up for a vote, and any provision or promise of that was explicitly taken out. I continue to reject this framing as inaccurate if not outright counterfactual.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Democrats control the house. Republicans control the Senate. There is absolutely no reason for Democrats to not bounce back anything and everything vile to force the Senate into owning their garbage.

    All this talk about how Pelosi had no choice because Senate Democrats turned traitor is bullshit. She didn't even bother trying to fight and when people rightfully called her out on it she attacks them instead of the shitstains in the Senate

    She can't credibly bounce it back to the Senate when most of her party there is backing the bill. Senate Democrats are still Democrats. That's why House Dems then caved too. Because once the vote came in, they knew Pelosi had way less leverage on them.

    Yes she can. She just chose not to in an attempt to save political face. She put her own status and power over doing the right thing and that tells me everything about her

    She can't. It's not credible. It's not about "saving political face", it's just that the action is utterly useless. This isn't about her own status and power, it's about the fact that there is no way forward. You can't stick the GOP with the bill because your own party members are massively on board for it. And so all you are gonna do is kill the bill do to democratic infighting.

    The fact that you frame this in terms of her personal status and power vs doing the right thing is basically the entire problem here. It both ignores all the other people actually responsible for this (like, say, the Republican party), frames this as being about her personally for some inexplicable reason and is built on the presumption that killing the bill actually does much of anything. It's not gonna stop the concentration camps.

    Much like McConnell she decides what comes to the floor of the House. She could have let it languish, just like he does. Instead she keeps trying to play a game that hasn't been relevant since 2016. She should have never been given back the gavel

    Right, so the bill dies do to Democratic infighting. That's the exact scenario I'm talking about. So you get the exact same story we have now. That's the whole point.

    Once Senate Democrats caved en masse, it was over. That gives the Republicans the cover they need to pass off the blame.


    Aridhol wrote: »
    You need both chambers to pass something.
    Republicans understand and can actually achieve fucking up democratic legislation. Democrats can't seem to figure this out.
    Refusing to even have the PR fight over who's "fault" it is is just tacitly admitting that they can't win any messaging battles.

    If the roles were reversed Ryan would have said go fuck yourself and nothing would have passed.
    House dems abandoned their responsibility and deserve all the shit they're getting for it.

    If positions are reversed, you don't see a bill with massive bipartisan support because the Senate GOP wouldn't cave because they have no incentive to. And thus, no pressure on Ryan. Who of course, wouldn't be able to whip his caucus anyway to get anything done one way or the other.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    Fencingsax
  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    The democratic reps and senators must fight concentration camps in the legislature, no matter how futile or irrational. Do the symbolic vote, get yourself primaried out of your seat if that is what it comes to. Pretend, lie to yourself if needs be, that voting against concentration camps matters.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I want someone to ask Pelosi if she would bail out a struggling concentration camp.

    AridholShortyPreacherElvenshaeTicaldfjamElldrenZonugalMan in the Mists
  • One Thousand CablesOne Thousand Cables An absence of thought Registered User regular
    The bill dying due to Democratic infighting is better than the bill passing (also with Democratic infighting)

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    The bill dying due to Democratic infighting is better than the bill passing (also with Democratic infighting)

    Eh. It depends what you think hurts you more. The bad press you see now or the bad press you get for "not funding border security" or whatever. Depending on your district, I can see it going either way.

  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    “Go drink from the toilet” is not a funding issue

    People crammed into cells while other areas stand empty is not a funding issue

    Hate speech on a CBP Facebook group is not a funding issue

    Democratic leadership failed here because once again they decided against making an argument

    They could have said, “Recent reports of conditions in these camps are shocking and horrible. The American people will not stand for mistreating human beings on our soil, and until the camps are closed we will not vote to give CBP a single cent in funding.”

    But they didn’t.

    No one's saying that wasn't an option... it's just hard to put the blame on Pelosi when the entire Senate turned their back on her during the showdown. Be mad at Democrats, be especially mad at Senate Democrats... Pelosi choosing to fight the camps in a different way after her Senate brethren caved isn't good optics, but at that point there were no good optics. She lost... stretching it out would only further smear the message of Democrats losing support.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    “Go drink from the toilet” is not a funding issue

    People crammed into cells while other areas stand empty is not a funding issue

    Hate speech on a CBP Facebook group is not a funding issue

    Democratic leadership failed here because once again they decided against making an argument

    They could have said, “Recent reports of conditions in these camps are shocking and horrible. The American people will not stand for mistreating human beings on our soil, and until the camps are closed we will not vote to give CBP a single cent in funding.”

    But they didn’t.

    No one's saying that wasn't an option... it's just hard to put the blame on Pelosi when the entire Senate turned their back on her during the showdown. Be mad at Democrats, be especially mad at Senate Democrats... Pelosi choosing to fight the camps in a different way after her Senate brethren caved isn't good optics, but at that point there were no good optics. She lost... stretching it out would only further smear the message of Democrats losing support.

    She didn't fight them. She voted to fund them, to be complicit.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    At some point the Democratic Party has to decide if they actually stand for anything.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    Democrats control the house. Republicans control the Senate. There is absolutely no reason for Democrats to not bounce back anything and everything vile to force the Senate into owning their garbage.

    All this talk about how Pelosi had no choice because Senate Democrats turned traitor is bullshit. She didn't even bother trying to fight and when people rightfully called her out on it she attacks them instead of the shitstains in the Senate

    She can't credibly bounce it back to the Senate when most of her party there is backing the bill. Senate Democrats are still Democrats. That's why House Dems then caved too. Because once the vote came in, they knew Pelosi had way less leverage on them.

    Yes she can. She just chose not to in an attempt to save political face. She put her own status and power over doing the right thing and that tells me everything about her

    She can't. It's not credible. It's not about "saving political face", it's just that the action is utterly useless. This isn't about her own status and power, it's about the fact that there is no way forward. You can't stick the GOP with the bill because your own party members are massively on board for it. And so all you are gonna do is kill the bill do to democratic infighting.

    The fact that you frame this in terms of her personal status and power vs doing the right thing is basically the entire problem here. It both ignores all the other people actually responsible for this (like, say, the Republican party), frames this as being about her personally for some inexplicable reason and is built on the presumption that killing the bill actually does much of anything. It's not gonna stop the concentration camps.

    Much like McConnell she decides what comes to the floor of the House. She could have let it languish, just like he does. Instead she keeps trying to play a game that hasn't been relevant since 2016. She should have never been given back the gavel

    Right, so the bill dies do to Democratic infighting. That's the exact scenario I'm talking about. So you get the exact same story we have now. That's the whole point.

    Once Senate Democrats caved en masse, it was over. That gives the Republicans the cover they need to pass off the blame.


    Aridhol wrote: »
    You need both chambers to pass something.
    Republicans understand and can actually achieve fucking up democratic legislation. Democrats can't seem to figure this out.
    Refusing to even have the PR fight over who's "fault" it is is just tacitly admitting that they can't win any messaging battles.

    If the roles were reversed Ryan would have said go fuck yourself and nothing would have passed.
    House dems abandoned their responsibility and deserve all the shit they're getting for it.

    If positions are reversed, you don't see a bill with massive bipartisan support because the Senate GOP wouldn't cave because they have no incentive to. And thus, no pressure on Ryan. Who of course, wouldn't be able to whip his caucus anyway to get anything done one way or the other.

    Democrats are already infighting, at least the other option results in not looking like they're supporting concentration camps

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  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    At some point the Democratic Party has to decide if they actually stand for anything.

    Honestly, I think they already have.

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  • One Thousand CablesOne Thousand Cables An absence of thought Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The bill dying due to Democratic infighting is better than the bill passing (also with Democratic infighting)

    Eh. It depends what you think hurts you more. The bad press you see now or the bad press you get for "not funding border security" or whatever. Depending on your district, I can see it going either way.

    Bad press is left in the dust by "materially supporting concentration camps" in terms of harm committed

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  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Voting to fund concentration camps is much worse than the hit from "border security" because you're not going to beat the guy locking up refugee's regardless.

    What voting to fund the camps also gets you is people on your side pissed off and, due to demographic shifts, future voters.
    "Remember when you voted to fund the camps holding my dad and mom?"

    This is one of those Iraq war votes where you get to be fucked for the future and rightly so. It was bad political calculus and just bad from a moral standpoint.

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  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    Their survival is not what was up for a vote, and any provision or promise of that was explicitly taken out. I continue to reject this framing as inaccurate if not outright counterfactual.

    Not having funding would change the narrative, even though a lot of us know it's patented bullshit. It would go from 'why are immigrants and kids dying under our care' to 'why are immigrants and kids dying due to lack of funding'. The humanitarian crisis doesn't disappear just because you decide to stop funding the crisis.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The bill dying due to Democratic infighting is better than the bill passing (also with Democratic infighting)

    Eh. It depends what you think hurts you more. The bad press you see now or the bad press you get for "not funding border security" or whatever. Depending on your district, I can see it going either way.

    Bad press is left in the dust by "materially supporting concentration camps" in terms of harm committed

    That's just another kind of bad press.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    Their survival is not what was up for a vote, and any provision or promise of that was explicitly taken out. I continue to reject this framing as inaccurate if not outright counterfactual.

    Not having funding would change the narrative, even though a lot of us know it's patented bullshit. It would go from 'why are immigrants and kids dying under our care' to 'why are immigrants and kids dying due to lack of funding'. The humanitarian crisis doesn't disappear just because you decide to stop funding the crisis.

    Yes, and that's why you continue to talk about the crisis and how it needs to stop, at every opportunity, which is a lot easier when you haven't just written those responsible for the crisis a blank check.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    At some point the Democratic Party has to decide if they actually stand for anything.

    I mean, this entire situation is because the Democratic Party is not united on this being a way to take a stand on this issue. Saying they have to "decide" on anything here presumes a level of centralisation that does not exist or even really make sense in context.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Voting to fund concentration camps is much worse than the hit from "border security" because you're not going to beat the guy locking up refugee's regardless.

    What voting to fund the camps also gets you is people on your side pissed off and, due to demographic shifts, future voters.
    "Remember when you voted to fund the camps holding my dad and mom?"

    This is one of those Iraq war votes where you get to be fucked for the future and rightly so. It was bad political calculus and just bad from a moral standpoint.

    We will all have an opportunity to try and put better people in Congress soon. It worked in 2018, and it can work much more in 2020. Put more Democrats in Congress, put a better Democrat in the primaries. Senate notwithstanding, you have every 2 years to try and shake up the House. You can also bet your ass that a question about the border funding bill will be asked in the next Democratic Primary debate. People want to hear what the potential next President thinks about the situation.

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    Aridhol
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Voting to fund concentration camps is much worse than the hit from "border security" because you're not going to beat the guy locking up refugee's regardless.

    What voting to fund the camps also gets you is people on your side pissed off and, due to demographic shifts, future voters.
    "Remember when you voted to fund the camps holding my dad and mom?"

    This is one of those Iraq war votes where you get to be fucked for the future and rightly so. It was bad political calculus and just bad from a moral standpoint.

    That presumes a bunch of these members are not put into power by people who think funding "border security" is important though.

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