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US Immigration Policy - Travel advisory: don't go to the South if you're Hispanic/Latino

1679111259

Posts

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    It's not fucking border security though. Like letting the GOP claim it is, is one reason the dems are in the position they are in.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    the message "the house will not support extra concentration camp funding" is the exact message every decent person in the country should want

    Commander ZoomYamiB.ElvenshaeMegaMekFencingsaxDuke 2.0jdarksunElldrenCaedwyrJaysonFourjoshofalltradesBloodsheedmrondeauKamarDarkPrimusBullheadautono-wally, erotibot300Happy Little MachineMan in the MistsBhowKayne Red RobeKoopahTroopah
  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    ACsTqqK.jpg
    XaquinCommander ZoomYamiB.iTunesIsEvilShortyPreacherElvenshaeNobeardBlackDragon480Mild ConfusionMegaMekFencingsaxjdarksunElldrennever dieCaedwyrJaysonFourjoshofalltradesBloodsheedmrondeauKraintZonugalBullheadEmerlmaster999Happy Little MachineMan in the MistsMagellNitsuaKristmas Kthulhu
  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    camo_sig2.png
    PSN: AuthorFrost
    mageofstorm.png
    XaquinPreacherElvenshaeCaedwyrjoshofalltradesBloodsheedmrondeauAegisMan in the Mists
  • TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    It reminds me of the framing against the Wayfair walkout.

    Wayfair Employees: “We don’t want our company profiting off concentration camps!”
    Fox & the GOP: “Oh, so you don’t want those children to have beds? Who are the real monsters here?”

    The bill dies: Nancy Pelosi wants immigrant children to suffer worse, without funding!
    The bill passes: Nancy Pelosi supports concentration camps!

    ElvenshaeBlackDragon480Gnome-InterruptusCelestialBadger
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote: »
    It reminds me of the framing against the Wayfair walkout.

    Wayfair Employees: “We don’t want our company profiting off concentration camps!”
    Fox & the GOP: “Oh, so you don’t want those children to have beds? Who are the real monsters here?”

    The bill dies: Nancy Pelosi wants immigrant children to suffer worse, without funding!
    The bill passes: Nancy Pelosi supports concentration camps!

    At least the Wayfair employee's actually fucking walked out though.

    IncenjucarXaquinDocUndead ScottsmanGONG-00MorganVElvenshaeBlackDragon480NobeardMild ConfusionMegaMekFencingsaxjdarksunElldrennever dieDrovekSpeed RacerCaedwyrJaysonFourjoshofalltradesBloodsheedmrondeauMr FuzzbuttNobodyCalicaKraintZonugalKamarShadowfireBullheadEmerlmaster999AegisViktor WaltersTofystedethrndmheroautono-wally, erotibot300Happy Little MachineMan in the MistsBeef AvengerKayne Red RobeMaijinamuroBandableMagellNitsuaDevlin_DragonusKristmas Kthulhu
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Son of a fucking bastard, I knew Barr was going to be more trouble than just the Mueller investigation shit he pulled. God our country is so compromised right now.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
    XaquinshrykeIncenjucarBullheadMan in the Mists
  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    “Go drink from the toilet” is not a funding issue

    People crammed into cells while other areas stand empty is not a funding issue

    Hate speech on a CBP Facebook group is not a funding issue

    Democratic leadership failed here because once again they decided against making an argument

    They could have said, “Recent reports of conditions in these camps are shocking and horrible. The American people will not stand for mistreating human beings on our soil, and until the camps are closed we will not vote to give CBP a single cent in funding.”

    But they didn’t.

    No one's saying that wasn't an option... it's just hard to put the blame on Pelosi when the entire Senate turned their back on her during the showdown. Be mad at Democrats, be especially mad at Senate Democrats... Pelosi choosing to fight the camps in a different way after her Senate brethren caved isn't good optics, but at that point there were no good optics. She lost... stretching it out would only further smear the message of Democrats losing support.

    Stretch it out, eat the bad narrative. This is one of the rare times I think the fight itself is worthwhile, no matter the consequences. Even if the 'pubs stonewall it, even if the messaging of it fails, even if it does not move the needle on public opinion, it is very, very important that concentration camps are flatly fought against in the legislature. If that means all you can do is "not be complicit", then do it.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
    XaquinYamiB.ElvenshaeMorganVFencingsaxElldrennever dieCaedwyrJaysonFourjoshofalltradesBullheadautono-wally, erotibot300Lord PalingtonMan in the MistsKristmas Kthulhu
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    They already voted for it. There's nothing to negotiate with. It's already a done deal when it comes back to Pelosi. Senate Dems put the Democratic Party on record as for the bill as the McConnell wanted it.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    They already voted for it. There's nothing to negotiate with. It's already a done deal when it comes back to Pelosi. Senate Dems put the Democratic Party on record as for the bill as the McConnell wanted it.

    it absolutely is not!

    Commander ZoomAridholYamiB.BlackDragon480ElvenshaeMild ConfusionMegaMekFencingsaxjdarksuniTunesIsEvilElldrennever dieCaedwyrJaysonFourjoshofalltradeskimeBloodsheedMillKraintZonugalKamarShadowfireBullheadEmerlmaster999autono-wally, erotibot300Man in the MistsKaputaLadaiKayne Red RobeMagellKristmas Kthulhu
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    TetraNitroCubaneGnome-InterruptusDoc
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.
    The opposite is not true.

    XaquinElvenshaeMorganViTunesIsEvilElldrenCaedwyrBloodsheedmrondeauBullheadMan in the MistsMagell
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    These funds are not going to improve the lives of these people.

    These funds will enable them to lock up more people. Subject more people to these conditions. Hire more ICE agents. Make more broad stroke arrests. Scan more drovers licenses. Be more cruel.

    Why are we still trying to argue that these funds will improve conditions for the people that are imprisoned? It won’t, the cruelty is the point! All it does is enable the racists to racist even harder.

    This is a 4.6 billion dollar check to imprison and kill more kids. We know this because the language to protect them was removed.

    steam_sig.png

    Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    Then they need to fucking do that, or hand "leadership" over to people who can.

    steam_sig.png
    Steam, Warframe: Megajoule
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  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    These funds are not going to improve the lives of these people.

    These funds will enable them to lock up more people. Subject more people to these conditions. Hire more ICE agents. Make more broad stroke arrests. Scan more drovers licenses. Be more cruel.

    Why are we still trying to argue that these funds will improve conditions for the people that are imprisoned? It won’t, the cruelty is the point! All it does is enable the racists to racist even harder.

    This is a 4.6 billion dollar check to imprison and kill more kids. We know this because the language to protect them was removed.

    At least most of that money will probably just dissapear into the grift machine without having much of a material affect.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    They already voted for it. There's nothing to negotiate with. It's already a done deal when it comes back to Pelosi. Senate Dems put the Democratic Party on record as for the bill as the McConnell wanted it.

    it absolutely is not!

    It is. Votes are on record. Bill is passed. McConnell has everything he needs and no reason in the world to ever back down. He's got a massively bipartisan bill to wave around whenever the issue comes up. And all it needs is the House to pass it.

    The House has no leg to stand on here with even their own party. They already made their choice and put it on record.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    Then they need to fucking do that, or hand "leadership" over to people who can.

    Yes. Shryke, it feels like you’re saying “Sure, they didn’t achieve any policy aims, but on the other hand, they didn’t get a good message out either.” On what level are you defending these decisions?

    ACsTqqK.jpg
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  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    They already voted for it. There's nothing to negotiate with. It's already a done deal when it comes back to Pelosi. Senate Dems put the Democratic Party on record as for the bill as the McConnell wanted it.

    it absolutely is not!

    It is. Votes are on record. Bill is passed. McConnell has everything he needs and no reason in the world to ever back down. He's got a massively bipartisan bill to wave around whenever the issue comes up. And all it needs is the House to pass it.

    The House has no leg to stand on here with even their own party. They already made their choice and put it on record.

    yeah, but so what? that's arguing in favor of the "yes, mom, my friends are all jumping off a cliff" bill.

    ElvenshaeElldrenCalica
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    Einzel
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    Then they need to fucking do that, or hand "leadership" over to people who can.

    Yes. Shryke, it feels like you’re saying “Sure, they didn’t achieve any policy aims, but on the other hand, they didn’t get a good message out either.” On what level are you defending these decisions?

    I'm saying the same thing I said when this first dropped. That way too much blame is shifting down to the people with the least agency over how this went down and that, specifically here, arguments that Pelosi should have just killed the bill and that this would have been easy and gotten good messaging are at best not at all certain to be true.

    In general Democrats have failed at winning the messaging war on this (as evidenced, if nothing else, by how everyone in the press or twitter or here or anywhere is complaining about Pelosi or talking about Democratic infighting instead of blamming McConnell and the GOP) but it does not seem to me that there are any good moves to be made once the Senate Democrats cave completely and throw their support behind McConnell's bill anyway. And these are separate issues in that they can fail on messaging regardless of what the Senate Dems do and that even good messaging leaves you with no real options once the Senate Dems cave.

    shryke on
    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    shryke wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    Then they need to fucking do that, or hand "leadership" over to people who can.

    Yes. Shryke, it feels like you’re saying “Sure, they didn’t achieve any policy aims, but on the other hand, they didn’t get a good message out either.” On what level are you defending these decisions?

    I'm saying the same thing I said when this first dropped. That way too much blame is shifting down to the people with the least agency over how this went down and that, specifically here, arguments that Pelosi should have just killed the bill and that this would have been easy and gotten good messaging are at best not at all certain to be true.

    In general Democrats have failed at winning the messaging war on this (as evidenced, if nothing else, by how everyone in the press or twitter or here or anywhere is complaining about Pelosi or talking about Democratic infighting instead of blamming McConnell and the GOP) but it does not seem to me that there are any good moves to be made once the Senate Democrats cave completely and throw their support behind McConnell's bill anyway.

    DON'T VOTE FOR THE BILL, AND TELL THE COUNTRY WHY NOT.

    there. done.
    why is (was) this apparently so fucking impossible?

    Commander Zoom on
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  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    I mean, yeah, you won't ever catch me saying Chuck Schumer isn't part of the problem

    Tube wrote: »
    I was legit hoping that Shorty was somehow mistaken and the world wasn't that fucked
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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    They already voted for it. There's nothing to negotiate with. It's already a done deal when it comes back to Pelosi. Senate Dems put the Democratic Party on record as for the bill as the McConnell wanted it.
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    Senate Dems wanted to vote for the bill to protect their right flank on border security. Pelosi could have sent back the bill saying “I’m not passing this without oversight.” Republicans can’t be negotiated with, but Democrats should be a different story. If Pelosi holds up a vote Senate Dems want, then Senate Dems can tell McConnell they’re not voting for it without oversight.

    Pelosi didn’t have to cave on this, she chose to cave on it.

    They already voted for it. There's nothing to negotiate with. It's already a done deal when it comes back to Pelosi. Senate Dems put the Democratic Party on record as for the bill as the McConnell wanted it.

    it absolutely is not!

    It is. Votes are on record. Bill is passed. McConnell has everything he needs and no reason in the world to ever back down. He's got a massively bipartisan bill to wave around whenever the issue comes up. And all it needs is the House to pass it.

    The House has no leg to stand on here with even their own party. They already made their choice and put it on record.

    All true. Keep fighting it anyway. The legal and lawful levers of power are being used to put children in concentration camps. It is vitally important that we not concede that those same legal and lawful levers of power cannot be used to close these concentration camps. It is vitally important that we not concede that the wielders (and those who elected them) of those levers of power cannot be convinced or coerced into closing these concentration camps.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
    Elvenshaenever dieCalicaMan in the Mists
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I mean we've seen in the past Boehener and Ryan would just not hold votes on things they didn't want to pass. But Pelosi didn't do that because she's beholden to the idiotic Joe Biden "we have to work with them to get them to listen to us" brand of politics.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

    I mean, yeah, it's about concentration camps. But it's only about how well funded you want those concentration camps to be. You are either symbolically against the camps but leaving them underfunded or are you for trying to improve conditions in them by funding those camps better. And it's also still about border security or whatever because that's what the GOP is saying every time they get in front of a camera.

    I think the framing of this issue is not as simple or as straightforward as you are thinking.

    SleepGnome-InterruptusJebus314
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Interviewer: Speaker Pelosi, why didn’t you allow the Senate bill to be voted on?
    Speaker Pelosi: Because language to protect children from inhumane conditions was removed. We believe that children should be protected regardless of circumstances, why would McConnell purposely remove this language?

    Parry and redirect. Seems pretty easy to me.

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  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited July 8
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

    I mean, yeah, it's about concentration camps. But it's only about how well funded you want those concentration camps to be. You are either symbolically against the camps but leaving them underfunded or are you for trying to improve conditions in them by funding those camps better. And it's also still about border security or whatever because that's what the GOP is saying every time they get in front of a camera.

    I think the framing of this issue is not as simple or as straightforward as you are thinking.

    I don't see much daylight between "concentration camp" and "well funded concentration camp".

    And that's even ignoring that the "well funded" part of the latter one doesn't mean improved conditions.

    Mortious on
    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Interviewer: Speaker Pelosi, why didn’t you allow the Senate bill to be voted on?
    Speaker Pelosi: Because language to protect children from inhumane conditions was removed. We believe that children should be protected regardless of circumstances, why would McConnell purposely remove this language?

    Parry and redirect. Seems pretty easy to me.

    Interviewer: But your own party supports this language. Why are you letting children starve in camps because of lack of funding?

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    The thing that's really infuriating is the House already passed a border funding bill; they have a record to fall back on and can make the the question be "why is mcconnel so against protections for children."

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Interviewer: Speaker Pelosi, why didn’t you allow the Senate bill to be voted on?
    Speaker Pelosi: Because language to protect children from inhumane conditions was removed. We believe that children should be protected regardless of circumstances, why would McConnell purposely remove this language?

    Parry and redirect. Seems pretty easy to me.

    Interviewer: But your own party supports this language. Why are you letting children starve in camps because of lack of funding?

    Pelosi: These children can be fed with current funding. It is the Trump admin that chose not to feed them as cover in order to illicit more funds. We will not fund horrific acts with over 4 billion dollars of tax payer money, especially with language guaranteeing their protections ensured. Again I must ask, why was that language removed?

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

    I mean, yeah, it's about concentration camps. But it's only about how well funded you want those concentration camps to be. You are either symbolically against the camps but leaving them underfunded or are you for trying to improve conditions in them by funding those camps better. And it's also still about border security or whatever because that's what the GOP is saying every time they get in front of a camera.

    I think the framing of this issue is not as simple or as straightforward as you are thinking.

    Get out in front of the cameras too, and make your case to the people. If the framing is bad, change it. If you don't know how, find someone who does.

    Otherwise, you're stuck with choosing between the two chalices your opponent offers you (both of which are poisoned) while he jabs you with Morton's Fork. No, fuck that. If you cannot win on the ground your foe has prepared for you, don't go there; change the site and form of the engagement.

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  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Interviewer: Speaker Pelosi, why didn’t you allow the Senate bill to be voted on?
    Speaker Pelosi: Because language to protect children from inhumane conditions was removed. We believe that children should be protected regardless of circumstances, why would McConnell purposely remove this language?

    Parry and redirect. Seems pretty easy to me.

    Interviewer: But your own party supports this language. Why are you letting children starve in camps because of lack of funding?

    "Nancy Pelosi can't handle basic spin" isn't really the winning argument that you might think it is

    Tube wrote: »
    I was legit hoping that Shorty was somehow mistaken and the world wasn't that fucked
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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Again, when the most charitable reading is "they're bad at their jobs"...

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  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    Again, when the most charitable reading is "they're bad at their jobs"...

    Right?

    One side funds the torturing of children because they are evil.
    The other funds because they are incompetent, but I guess that makes it okay.

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    edited July 8
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

    I mean, yeah, it's about concentration camps. But it's only about how well funded you want those concentration camps to be. You are either symbolically against the camps but leaving them underfunded or are you for trying to improve conditions in them by funding those camps better. And it's also still about border security or whatever because that's what the GOP is saying every time they get in front of a camera.

    I think the framing of this issue is not as simple or as straightforward as you are thinking.

    Get out in front of the cameras too, and make your case to the people. If the framing is bad, change it. If you don't know how, find someone who does.

    Otherwise, you're stuck with choosing between the two chalices your opponent offers you (both of which are poisoned) while he jabs you with Morton's Fork. No, fuck that. If you cannot win on the ground your foe has prepared for you, don't go there; change the site and form of the engagement.

    Can't do that when the ground is the federal legislature.

    Nobeard on
    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

    I mean, yeah, it's about concentration camps. But it's only about how well funded you want those concentration camps to be. You are either symbolically against the camps but leaving them underfunded or are you for trying to improve conditions in them by funding those camps better. And it's also still about border security or whatever because that's what the GOP is saying every time they get in front of a camera.

    I think the framing of this issue is not as simple or as straightforward as you are thinking.

    Get out in front of the cameras too, and make your case to the people. If the framing is bad, change it. If you don't know how, find someone who does.

    Otherwise, you're stuck with choosing between the two chalices your opponent offers you (both of which are poisoned) while he jabs you with Morton's Fork. No, fuck that. If you cannot win on the ground your foe has prepared for you, don't go there; change the site and form of the engagement.

    Can't do that when the ground is the federal legislature.

    That isn't where the PR game is playedfor the most part.

    Commander ZoomElvenshaeFencingsax
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 8
    Nobeard wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Madican wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    Quiotu wrote: »
    apparently some of us are getting mad that the Democrats didn't kill immigrant prisoners in order to try and make the GOP look worse.

    How goddamn petty.

    I submit that this framing is bullshit and I refuse to accept it, which is also IMO what Pelosi should have done.

    The camps are there, and will continue to be there. Do you think lack of funding will make them stop using the camps?

    Because have adults and children dying in their care made them stop giving a shit up until now? I don't get the end result you want here... a moral victory? It's going to be a lot harder to proclaim moral superiority when the immigrants start to die faster than before, because you won't fund their survival.

    it'd be a lot easier to believe this if the "fund their survival" part had been added in there somewhere

    It was. The Senate stripped it out.

    exactly, that's why you send it back with "put oversight back in" again and again and again

    Senate Democrats overwhelmingly voted for it already so that doesn't happen. McConnell laughs at you and the press reports on Democratic infighting between the Senate and the House killing the bill and in this case that would actually be accurate.

    so what? fuck senate dems. hang them out to dry. I'd rather that than give $texas to nazis who specifically say they will not bother to provide oversight into their concentration camps.

    Because it doesn't get you the message you want. That's why it matters.

    So this whole thing about them being complicit in funding concentration camps is the message they want?

    These old Democrats absolutely suck at actually getting the messaging they want and then turn around to yell at the younger ones when they prove they know how to actually succeed

    The message in the press is more "AOC vs Pelosi FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT" from what I've seen. They've been pushing it since she ran in the primary and they are finally really getting it for real.

    The point though was that you are thinking Pelosi kills the bill and then goes "We won't fund concentration camps!". But what imo actually happens there is Pelosi kills the bill and you get "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" as the headlines and no mention of the other shit.

    None of which is to say they don't suck at controlling the messaging.

    This is still the right way to go.
    The people who will believe "Democratic party infighting kills border funding bill" already think the democrats are for open borders.
    There is zero harm in that headline in terms of votes.

    The opposite is not true.

    Nah, this is not true at all imo. Plenty of democratic voters view "border security" as an important issue. It's a mistake to think that anyone who cares about this stuff must be an immovable GOP base voter.

    So you make it clear this is not about "border security", it's about concentration camps. Take control of the damn narrative!

    I feel like we're talking in circles here.

    I mean, yeah, it's about concentration camps. But it's only about how well funded you want those concentration camps to be. You are either symbolically against the camps but leaving them underfunded or are you for trying to improve conditions in them by funding those camps better. And it's also still about border security or whatever because that's what the GOP is saying every time they get in front of a camera.

    I think the framing of this issue is not as simple or as straightforward as you are thinking.

    Get out in front of the cameras too, and make your case to the people. If the framing is bad, change it. If you don't know how, find someone who does.

    Otherwise, you're stuck with choosing between the two chalices your opponent offers you (both of which are poisoned) while he jabs you with Morton's Fork. No, fuck that. If you cannot win on the ground your foe has prepared for you, don't go there; change the site and form of the engagement.

    Can't do that when the ground is the federal legislature.

    That's when you go to the media and the public. And if they say "yes, that is what we elected you for, quit stalling and represent us", make sure they understand exactly what they are telling you to vote for

    Commander Zoom on
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    MegaMekElvenshae
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Interviewer: Speaker Pelosi, why didn’t you allow the Senate bill to be voted on?
    Speaker Pelosi: Because language to protect children from inhumane conditions was removed. We believe that children should be protected regardless of circumstances, why would McConnell purposely remove this language?

    Parry and redirect. Seems pretty easy to me.

    Interviewer: But your own party supports this language. Why are you letting children starve in camps because of lack of funding?

    "Nancy Pelosi can't handle basic spin" isn't really the winning argument that you might think it is

    Winning in what sense? Like, has anyone claimed they were good at media spin?

    I just think y'all are just missing how this ends up playing out in the media. It's a classic Democrats In Disarray story and at best you get a he-said/she-said between the two chambers.

    NobeardGnome-Interruptus
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