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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Supremes Reunite For One Last Gig

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  • danxdanx Registered User regular
    Scottish Labour are having another meltdown because they're not considered to be worth any consideration by the Labour Party and they never learn. This time it's because John McDonnell said Labour won't block an Indy 2.0 referendum, in contradiction to ScotLab policy. Only after the shit hit the fan and after doubling down did he bother speaking to ScotLab leader Richard Leonard. I'm not sure if MCDonnell's walked it back yet.

    This is the same shit that happened with Kezia Dugdale and the idiots in ScotLab don't ever learn Corbyns' Labour give no fucks about them.

  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    To be frank no one has any legitimate right to block a second referendum given the change in circumstance since 2014. I say the same thing to Scot Lab as I say to Brexiteers. The only reason to fear a referendum is that you think a democratic vote wouldn't produce the result you want.

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    klemming wrote: »
    So one thing I am wondering: Article 50 requires a nation leave within procedures following its own constitution.

    Should Johnson pull shenanigans like “oh, parliament approved a second referendum/general election, lets schedule it for Nov 1, oops thats after the deadline no deal.” could the EU not just declare that unconstitutional(either though the ECJ or a unanimous vote) and unilaterally move the date?

    Boris'd just refuse to recognise it, and instruct everyone to behave as if they'd left.
    Then ramp up the rhetoric even more.

    You mean with rhetoric, or actually tell the people on the ground to enforce a hard border and customs? Cause doing the later would be pretty foolish even for him, unless he wants to find out just how many would just give him the finger when following through means intentionally harming their own country for his ego.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    His thing seems to be ignoring reality and treating the world like it's working how he wants it to, I just assume that'd be the ultimate expression of it; we said we were going to leave on the 31st and we did. The EU says otherwise, but we left them, so why would their opinion matter?

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  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited August 8
    japan wrote: »
    Paddy Power are giving odds on the first commodity to be rationed by the UK government in 2019

    Fuel is at 4/1, bread is 16/1

    Edit: also offering 11/4 on KFC closing outlets in the UK during 2019 due to a chicken shortage, which seems oddly specific

    It's happened before in the UK, just last year. They switched suppliers...and the supplier was completely unable to meet demand, so they had to shut down stores for a few days until they could switch back.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Good news! There will be adequate beef:
    No-deal Brexit risks cattle cull in NI, industry insiders warn
    Some 45,000 dairy cows could be culled in Northern Ireland, in the event of a no-deal Brexit if new higher tariffs are applied to British milk, senior industry figures have warned.

    Northern Ireland is particularly vulnerable because about a third of its dairy output is processed in the Republic of Ireland, which would continue to be part of the EU.

    The UK is due to leave the EU on 31 October and one source said the culling of cattle could start within weeks of that date if that happened without the UK and EU agreeing a deal.

    In a statement Defra said: "A widespread cull of livestock is absolutely not something that the government anticipates nor is planning for in the event of no-deal.

    "We will always back Britain and Northern Ireland's great farmers and make sure that Brexit works for them.

    "The government is boosting its preparations to ensure we are fully prepared to leave the EU on 31 October, whatever the circumstances."

    But another industry insider told Newsnight that despite their warnings there had been a "metaphorical shrug of the shoulders from ministers".

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    More likely the meat goes in dog food or just gets wasted. There's usually rules saying unless an animal has been raised specifically from birth for meat it can't be used for human consumption.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    More likely the meat goes in dog food or just gets wasted. There's usually rules saying unless an animal has been raised specifically from birth for meat it can't be used for human consumption.

    Ah, but are they EU rules? #lifehacks

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  • AntinumericAntinumeric Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    More likely the meat goes in dog food or just gets wasted. There's usually rules saying unless an animal has been raised specifically from birth for meat it can't be used for human consumption.

    IIRC the horse meat scandal was due to horse culling in Romania and trying to find a way to make it more profitable. Just because there are rules....

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  • SharpyVIISharpyVII Registered User regular
    Also remember the Tories will most likely slash food safety standards in order to appease America so they can get a trade deal after Brexit.

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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    Kind of a tangent from the Brexit concerns, but the Institute of Fiscal Studies released a paper a couple of days ago talking about the characteristics of the top 1% and 0.1% of earners in the UK. Nestled away in the discussion of six figure salaries is the note that 43% of UK adults don't pay income tax because their income isn't high enough.

    That's fucking astonishing to me. Nearly half of everyone in the UK earns less than £12,500 a year. No wonder people are feeling desperate and searching for someone to blame.

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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    Kind of a tangent from the Brexit concerns, but the Institute of Fiscal Studies released a paper a couple of days ago talking about the characteristics of the top 1% and 0.1% of earners in the UK. Nestled away in the discussion of six figure salaries is the note that 43% of UK adults don't pay income tax because their income isn't high enough.

    That's fucking astonishing to me. Nearly half of everyone in the UK earns less than £12,500 a year. No wonder people are feeling desperate and searching for someone to blame.

    the number is roughly the same here. it's crazy

    and they also get to pay all the most regressive taxes like sales tax and FICA/SSI

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  • SparvySparvy Registered User regular
    edited August 8
    Burnage wrote: »
    Kind of a tangent from the Brexit concerns, but the Institute of Fiscal Studies released a paper a couple of days ago talking about the characteristics of the top 1% and 0.1% of earners in the UK. Nestled away in the discussion of six figure salaries is the note that 43% of UK adults don't pay income tax because their income isn't high enough.

    That's fucking astonishing to me. Nearly half of everyone in the UK earns less than £12,500 a year. No wonder people are feeling desperate and searching for someone to blame.

    That is shocking, I tried to find similar data for sweden and the lowest median income of any county for ages 20-64 is a southern place called Perstorp where it was 268000 SEK (~£23k) for 2017. And the theory is that they are close enough to denmark that some people work over there so their income don’t show up in the statistics.

    Sparvy on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    I would like to know how those figures break down. I know wages have been stagnating for a while but how much of that 43% are home-makers, students, etc? The figure says "adults", not "earners" or the employed.

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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    Sparvy wrote: »
    Burnage wrote: »
    Kind of a tangent from the Brexit concerns, but the Institute of Fiscal Studies released a paper a couple of days ago talking about the characteristics of the top 1% and 0.1% of earners in the UK. Nestled away in the discussion of six figure salaries is the note that 43% of UK adults don't pay income tax because their income isn't high enough.

    That's fucking astonishing to me. Nearly half of everyone in the UK earns less than £12,500 a year. No wonder people are feeling desperate and searching for someone to blame.

    That is shocking, I tried to find similar data for sweden and the lowest median income of any county is a southern place called Perstorp where it was 268000 SEK (~£23k) for 2017. And the theory is that they are close enough to denmark that some people work over there so their income don’t show up in the statistics.

    it could be the scandinavian economic model is generally far more successful than the anglo-saxon model

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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Daily Record journalist.



    Scottish Labour are very, very annoyed with John McDonnell and the recent OK sure shrug about another Scottish Independence vote. I wonder if McDonnell even bothered telling them ahead of time what he was going to do. If McDonnell wanted to make his own party in Scotland look irrelevant and powerless (and you could very well argue that they are), he's done a spectacular job.

  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Daily Record journalist.



    Scottish Labour are very, very annoyed with John McDonnell and the recent OK sure shrug about another Scottish Independence vote. I wonder if McDonnell even bothered telling them ahead of time what he was going to do. If McDonnell wanted to make his own party in Scotland look irrelevant and powerless (and you could very well argue that they are), he's done a spectacular job.

    The rank hypocrisy of Scottish Labour supporting a second EU Referendum but opposing a second Indy Ref would stagger me if not for my constant exposure to SLab over the last 39 years of my life.

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  • SanderJKSanderJK Crocodylus Pontifex Sinterklasicus Madrid, 3000 ADRegistered User regular
    In NL at least, such figures are skewed because they are 18-75y

    This means that a lot of people are not really in the work pool:

    University Students
    A decade of Pensioners
    Partners in single income families
    People on some sort of disability income
    Unemployed
    People who don't work officially, but also don't rely on the state (a lot of unreported work, but also people who 'avoid' the system, from homeless to criminals to people with enough wealth not to work)

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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular


    reuters is an international news organization
    British opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn would dash across London in a cab to Buckingham Palace and tell Queen Elizabeth “We’re taking over” should Prime Minister Boris Johnson refuse to quit if he lost a no-confidence vote, Corbyn’s deputy says.

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    I would like to know how those figures break down. I know wages have been stagnating for a while but how much of that 43% are home-makers, students, etc? The figure says "adults", not "earners" or the employed.

    I don’t see why that matters

    Upkeep costs on these crazy meat-husks are similar regardless of employment status

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »


    reuters is an international news organization
    British opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn would dash across London in a cab to Buckingham Palace and tell Queen Elizabeth “We’re taking over” should Prime Minister Boris Johnson refuse to quit if he lost a no-confidence vote, Corbyn’s deputy says.

    Were it anyone but Corbyn, I would take this as a not-so-subtle hint that he has a working majority to form a new government during the 14 day period.

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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    Elldren wrote: »
    Bogart wrote: »
    I would like to know how those figures break down. I know wages have been stagnating for a while but how much of that 43% are home-makers, students, etc? The figure says "adults", not "earners" or the employed.

    I don’t see why that matters

    Upkeep costs on these crazy meat-husks are similar regardless of employment status

    well if 43% of adults make less than £12,500 but only half of them are employed, it sort of makes the 43% figure sensationally inflated. a certain subset of adults can be expected to not be employed, so for purposes of a discussion of what people earn, they are essentially tipping the scales.

    or, alternately, it's entirely possible it's only talking about people who are employed, in which case that's an unacceptably high number in my opinion

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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Daily Record journalist.



    Scottish Labour are very, very annoyed with John McDonnell and the recent OK sure shrug about another Scottish Independence vote. I wonder if McDonnell even bothered telling them ahead of time what he was going to do. If McDonnell wanted to make his own party in Scotland look irrelevant and powerless (and you could very well argue that they are), he's done a spectacular job.

    The rank hypocrisy of Scottish Labour supporting a second EU Referendum but opposing a second Indy Ref would stagger me if not for my constant exposure to SLab over the last 39 years of my life.

    McDonnell has apparently also said that they will block a yes/no ref question

    Supposedly, they want the option of a Federal UK on there, and this is totally consistent with the fact that Dugdale pushed that internally for her entire tenure and the Labour leadership pushed her out over it (among other things)

  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    Paddy Power are giving odds on the first commodity to be rationed by the UK government in 2019

    Fuel is at 4/1, bread is 16/1

    Edit: also offering 11/4 on KFC closing outlets in the UK during 2019 due to a chicken shortage, which seems oddly specific

    How would a shortage of actual chickens impact KFC?

    KFC generally uses fresh chicken so hiccups in the supply chain can close locations pretty rapidly.

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  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    Relatedly, nationalist twitter is having tremendous fun with the fact that Scottish Labour is arguing that UK Labour should be required to respect the expressed will of Scottish Labour, in matters pertaining to Scotland.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »


    reuters is an international news organization
    British opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn would dash across London in a cab to Buckingham Palace and tell Queen Elizabeth “We’re taking over” should Prime Minister Boris Johnson refuse to quit if he lost a no-confidence vote, Corbyn’s deputy says.

    Were it anyone but Corbyn, I would take this as a not-so-subtle hint that he has a working majority to form a new government during the 14 day period.

    But since it is, it's just one more thing showing what really matters to him.

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  • danxdanx Registered User regular
    japan wrote: »
    McDonnell has apparently also said that they will block a yes/no ref question

    Supposedly, they want the option of a Federal UK on there, and this is totally consistent with the fact that Dugdale pushed that internally for her entire tenure and the Labour leadership pushed her out over it (among other things)

    What difference will that make now? We're almost certainly leaving the EU and 3 other parliaments will have to agree to a plan for Federalisation. If they put it on the ballot we could say aye and England can go naw then it's back to the same shit we have now.

    Plus we've had this carrot dangled in front of us in 2014 with no follow through. It was just proposed to split the vote then. It'd be daft to fall for it again.

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  • eEK!eEK! Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »


    reuters is an international news organization
    British opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn would dash across London in a cab to Buckingham Palace and tell Queen Elizabeth “We’re taking over” should Prime Minister Boris Johnson refuse to quit if he lost a no-confidence vote, Corbyn’s deputy says.

    Were it anyone but Corbyn, I would take this as a not-so-subtle hint that he has a working majority to form a new government during the 14 day period.
    Yes, according to below FT writer the Liberals would prefer a no deal Brexit to Corbyn as PM.

    Yellow Tories, continue to yellow Tory...

  • japanjapan Registered User regular
    danx wrote: »
    japan wrote: »
    McDonnell has apparently also said that they will block a yes/no ref question

    Supposedly, they want the option of a Federal UK on there, and this is totally consistent with the fact that Dugdale pushed that internally for her entire tenure and the Labour leadership pushed her out over it (among other things)

    What difference will that make now? We're almost certainly leaving the EU and 3 other parliaments will have to agree to a plan for Federalisation. If they put it on the ballot we could say aye and England can go naw then it's back to the same shit we have now.

    Plus we've had this carrot dangled in front of us in 2014 with no follow through. It was just proposed to split the vote then. It'd be daft to fall for it again.

    I'm honestly not sure

    The obvious intention is to split the yes vote but I can see it pulling in wavering no voters and splitting that vote instead/as well

    Given the way brexit has gone down I can also see people being extremely suspicious of an open ended option that depends on the goodwill of the UK government

    Also it seems like a vote to federalise the home nations should be a uk-wide vote

  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    That's just the same as last time though with Clegg, you don't say "We expect to lose". They are right though, Corbyn is a threat to a lot of things through sheer ineptitude alone, and that's why it's so easy for Tories to rally against him. If someone else had been in charge of Labour last time I imagine May wouldn't have bothered calling that election. And she wouldn't have "won" it either.

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  • eEK!eEK! Registered User regular
    That's just the same as last time though with Clegg, you don't say "We expect to lose". They are right though, Corbyn is a threat to a lot of things through sheer ineptitude alone, and that's why it's so easy for Tories to rally against him. If someone else had been in charge of Labour last time I imagine May wouldn't have bothered calling that election. And she wouldn't have "won" it either.

    Nah, the press would have murdered Andy Burnham or Yvette Cooper, only reason it didn't quite work on Corbyn is his core supporters don't trust the non-left media.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    That's just the same as last time though with Clegg, you don't say "We expect to lose". They are right though, Corbyn is a threat to a lot of things through sheer ineptitude alone, and that's why it's so easy for Tories to rally against him. If someone else had been in charge of Labour last time I imagine May wouldn't have bothered calling that election. And she wouldn't have "won" it either.

    Seeing as Corbyn is pro-leave, putting him in charge of a bollocks to brexit coalition would be daft

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  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    That's just the same as last time though with Clegg, you don't say "We expect to lose". They are right though, Corbyn is a threat to a lot of things through sheer ineptitude alone, and that's why it's so easy for Tories to rally against him. If someone else had been in charge of Labour last time I imagine May wouldn't have bothered calling that election. And she wouldn't have "won" it either.

    Seeing as Corbyn is pro-leave, putting him in charge of a bollocks to brexit coalition would be daft

    Seriously, I really struggle to see the Lib Dems acting like "yellow Tories" here. If you're against the idea of Brexit you should be against the idea of Corbyn as PM.

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    eEK! wrote: »
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »


    reuters is an international news organization
    British opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn would dash across London in a cab to Buckingham Palace and tell Queen Elizabeth “We’re taking over” should Prime Minister Boris Johnson refuse to quit if he lost a no-confidence vote, Corbyn’s deputy says.

    Were it anyone but Corbyn, I would take this as a not-so-subtle hint that he has a working majority to form a new government during the 14 day period.
    Yes, according to below FT writer the Liberals would prefer a no deal Brexit to Corbyn as PM.

    Yellow Tories, continue to yellow Tory...

    Seems to read that they don't believe Corbyn would avoid Brexit

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  • eEK!eEK! Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    That's just the same as last time though with Clegg, you don't say "We expect to lose". They are right though, Corbyn is a threat to a lot of things through sheer ineptitude alone, and that's why it's so easy for Tories to rally against him. If someone else had been in charge of Labour last time I imagine May wouldn't have bothered calling that election. And she wouldn't have "won" it either.

    Seeing as Corbyn is pro-leave, putting him in charge of a bollocks to brexit coalition would be daft

    Seriously, I really struggle to see the Lib Dems acting like "yellow Tories" here. If you're against the idea of Brexit you should be against the idea of Corbyn as PM.

    Not really a transitional Corbyn government would be reliant on SNP and Lib Dem votes and would have to deliver a GE or referendum very quickly before it fell apart.

    The Liberals really do have long standing ideological differences with Labour, that mean more to them than stopping Brexit.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    As far as I can figure out from that link, the Lib Dem statement is entirely about Brexit. Is there something showing that's not the case?

    Because a pro-Remain party should definitely not trust Corbyn and that's got nothing to do with being "tory".

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  • ChanusChanus Ribbit! Registered User regular
    edited August 8
    it is entirely possible the lib dems are both the tory-lite party and so would not want to put corbyn in the leadership and also don't believe corbyn is pro-remain and would not want to put him in the leadership

    because i mean

    both are certainly true

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    The caretaker government is presumably only about Brexit, though. Unless I am mistaken.

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  • pezgenpezgen Registered User regular
    The posturing from both Labour and Lib Dems about not working with each other is just stupid. The only thing such a coalition needs to do is be able to form a majority after a VONC in Johnson, allowing them to be in charge long enough to request an extension from the EU to avoid no deal. It’s not a long-term thing.

    Ideally they’d then immediately try to get a general election, but I’m not sure how that would work as they wouldn’t have a 2/3rds majority for it, but maybe they just no-confidence themselves?

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited August 8
    Any proposal involving Labour must account for the fact that, like Boris, the only thing Corbyn wants is to be in charge and he's quite willing to burn down the country to get it. He's just less honest about it.

    EDIT: to be fair, it's possible he genuinely believes he can manage a "better" Brexit, in the context of the 1970s world he apparently still lives in... but, again and of course, only if he's in charge. So that just makes him dishonest and delusional.

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