The EU should show "common sense" and agree to make changes to the Brexit withdrawal deal, Boris Johnson has told the BBC.
The prime minister said there was "bags of time" for the EU to compromise on the Irish border backstop plan before the Brexit deadline of 31 October.
He also warned MPs not to oppose Brexit, and to respect the 2016 referendum result.
The EU has said repeatedly the backstop arrangements cannot be changed.
Mr Johnson said the policy - designed to guarantee there will not be a hard Irish border after Brexit - would turn the UK into a "satellite state" of the EU if it came into effect.
Speaking during a visit to Oxfordshire, he said the arrangements would "keep us locked in EU regulatory orbit, locked in the EU trading system, unable to control our own laws".
"We need change on that, once we get change on that I think we're at the races, and I think there's a good deal to be done."
...
I wrote an angry response to this that would almost certainly have gotten me kicked from the thread and/or added to a watchlist somewhere.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
+6
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scherbchenAsgard (it is dead)Registered Userregular
The solution basically sounds like "Let us get every benefit from being in the EU through our NI backdoor but don't expect us to do anything for you. Oh also, we gotta be able to keep out the Muslims."
I don't even know how you completely cave in a way that gives Tories the ability to restrict immigration. To restrict immigration you need a hard border somewhere!
I'm consistently astonished by the apparently widespread brexiteer belief that a free trade agreement could be quickly signed with the EU following a no deal exit
Some no-dealers appear to be gunning for it as an outcome for this reason
I honestly cannot imagine any stance from the EU other than "trade talks cannot take place with a country in violation of a peace treaty signed with a member state, a precondition of any talks is the normalisation of relations"
The threats and constitutional shenanigans around a likely attempt to try and force no-deal against the will of parliament again exposes the constitutional hole I mentioned a while back. The way I see it is that the PM (and cabinet) have perogative powers, the only authoutirty holding them accountable is nominally the monarch - who won't act - and a degree of control over the government by parliament. Recent experience with May and now Johnson shows that they're more than willing to trample over constitutional conventions acting as checks on their power. To prevent abuses of power, there needs to be clear and impartial guidelines for the monarch to limit the power of the PM + cabinet. What form that would take I'm not entirely sure on, but certainly there should be some way to prevent an appointed PM with no real guarantee of parliamentary support from shutting parliament out of the debate.
Also the fixed term parliament act needs to go die somewhere and be replaced by something that isn't a naked attempt to cling to power by the tories.
I notice Boris didn't actually say what the "common sense" compromise on the Irish border issue actually is. You'd think that'd be easy, it being "common sense" and all.
I notice Boris didn't actually say what the "common sense" compromise on the Irish border issue actually is. You'd think that'd be easy, it being "common sense" and all.
He didn't say there was one, he said they should show "common sense" and just drop the backstop. He's "very positive" that there's an alternative that could be reached if they did drop it, but obviously it's not his job to know what that technical workaround is. Afterall, it's the EU's problem, they should suggest something.
McDonnell has apparently also said that they will block a yes/no ref question
Supposedly, they want the option of a Federal UK on there, and this is totally consistent with the fact that Dugdale pushed that internally for her entire tenure and the Labour leadership pushed her out over it (among other things)
What difference will that make now? We're almost certainly leaving the EU and 3 other parliaments will have to agree to a plan for Federalisation. If they put it on the ballot we could say aye and England can go naw then it's back to the same shit we have now.
Plus we've had this carrot dangled in front of us in 2014 with no follow through. It was just proposed to split the vote then. It'd be daft to fall for it again.
This. Federalism in the UK is an idea that has had its time and that time was 2014. It's something that was faithfully promised to us in exchange for staying in the union and it was so completely forgotten the day after the vote you'd be forgiven for thinking it was never mentioned. Even if the Scottish electorate was to believe that a second time, which I doubt they are, differences have cropped up that even federalism can't paper over. Scotland wants to be in the EU and England doesn't, there's simply no way to square that with the United Kingdom. The political cultures have radically diverged and the polarising of mutually exclusive viewpoints is getting more and more entrenched. It's happening at breakneck pace now.
Independence is coming now, hard to say when but the Tories swing to right wing populism and the political impossibility of removing them from government means it's inevitable.
So if Scotland goes independent and NI ends up as some sort of weird international customs neutral ground will they have to stop calling it the United Kingdom? Maybe change the flag back to the red cross on white?
So if Scotland goes independent and NI ends up as some sort of weird international customs neutral ground will they have to stop calling it the United Kingdom? Maybe change the flag back to the red cross on white?
Wales is still a thing, so UK would probably stick around for a bit. If nothing else, it would hardly be the first country to have a misleading name.
So if Scotland goes independent and NI ends up as some sort of weird international customs neutral ground will they have to stop calling it the United Kingdom? Maybe change the flag back to the red cross on white?
Wales is still a thing, so UK would probably stick around for a bit. If nothing else, it would hardly be the first country to have a misleading name.
Wales is technically not a kingdom though. But they did keep France in the coat of arms for like 300 years after the end of the HYW so there is precedence.
I mean there was a leftist plan for the UK to essentially become multiple independent nations within the context of the EU doing the rounds a while back. Scottish Independence, Irish reunification and heavy devolution for Wales, and we all look towards the European Union as the international stage for promoting interests.
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
that's what the whole backstop business is about
they get to claim that the EU is unwilling to compromise and so their hand is forced toward a No Deal Brexit
of course, the truth of the matter is compromise on the backstop will literally end up killing people, so of course the EU is unwilling to compromise
it's an intractable position, so as long as you can spin the narrative it's not your fault, you don't have to take the blame for the fallout of no deal
Allegedly a voice of reason.
+6
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
it's transparently cynical and utter bullshit but it has just enough truth in it that anyone whose primary concern is getting Brexit done can use it to do the mental gymnastics to convince themselves the havoc caused by no deal isn't what they asked for and isn't their fault
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
Wait, they are doing a snap election immediately AFTER no deal brexit? Are they completely mad?
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
Wait, they are doing a snap election immediately AFTER no deal brexit? Are they completely mad?
They're malevolently stupid cunts, yes
+14
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
Wait, they are doing a snap election immediately AFTER no deal brexit? Are they completely mad?
they're probably betting they gain seats as their rabble is roused by a successful brexit but the consequences aren't clear yet
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
Wait, they are doing a snap election immediately AFTER no deal brexit? Are they completely mad?
The plan is to time it so it's too late for anyone to undo the deed and hopefully pick up jubilant Brexiteer votes, but also too soon for it to settle in how these 'teething problems' are actually the new permanent state of fucked we live in and their popularity to tank with everyone on all sides. Then ride that fixed term parliament act as long they can.
Yea, the election that soon won't have any of the super huge consequences being readily apparent. The issues that crop up can be plausibly claimed to be temporary and will soon vanish.
Certainly a better option than elections six months afterwards.
Boris Johnson’s chief of staff cancelled all leave for government advisers until 31 October in a missive on Thursday night, raising further speculation the government is planning for a forced snap election in the aftermath of the UK leaving the EU with no deal.
It remains unclear if anti-Brexit MPs in parliament would be able to swerve a general election, as senior Labour and Liberal Democrat figures clashed on Friday over their parties’ apparent willingness to place conditions on any unity government or coalition prepared to stop a no-deal Brexit.
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
Wait, they are doing a snap election immediately AFTER no deal brexit? Are they completely mad?
The plan is to time it so it's too late for anyone to undo the deed and hopefully pick up jubilant Brexiteer votes, but also too soon for it to settle in how these 'teething problems' are actually the new permanent state of fucked we live in and their popularity to tank with everyone on all sides. Then ride that fixed term parliament act as long they can.
That last period is where the racist demagoguery starts really settling in. Conservatives worldwide are realizing that they don’t need to govern well if they turn their constituents into a white supremacist cult.
+11
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
To be fair the only other viable plan for Boris I've seen was to basically try and lead an opposition government to his own party's policies. Dude does not have a lot of plays here.
To be fair the only other viable plan for Boris I've seen was to basically try and lead an opposition government to his own party's policies. Dude does not have a lot of plays here.
Don't worry though, BoJo et al will be perfectly fine even if they ruin the country. They'll just leave politics and go in to lucrative careers making speeches and grifting for everyone they made richer whilst in government.
Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn has called on the United Kingdom's most senior civil servant to intervene to prevent Boris Johnson from forcing a no-deal Brexit in the middle of a general election campaign.
Corbyn wrote to Mark Sedwill, the cabinet secretary, on Thursday, accusing the prime minister of planning an "unprecedented, unconstitutional and anti-democratic abuse of power," after it was reported that Johnson could hold a general election the day after Brexit. The UK is set to leave the European Union on October 31.
I think it’s more that he’s objecting to an election after forcing no deal through, rather than an election in which no deal is something the parties can campaign on before the deadline.
I think it’s more that he’s objecting to an election after forcing no deal through, rather than an election in which no deal is something the parties can campaign on before the deadline.
It's this
In principle Johnson could call a snap election, setting a date after 31st October, and dissolve parliament. Thus no-deal is a fait accompli with no opportunity for parliament to intervene
Whether or not this is legal is a current hot topic of debate among constitutional lawyers, the "purdah" convention is supposed to stop governments making significant policy decisions during election campaigns, precisely to restrain governments that don't expect to win an election from doing anything wacky
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One of those seems like it could be flexible, especially if such a government is only supposed to last for a month until a GE.
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I wrote an angry response to this that would almost certainly have gotten me kicked from the thread and/or added to a watchlist somewhere.
why would you? just use your common sense, sheesh.
I don't even know how you completely cave in a way that gives Tories the ability to restrict immigration. To restrict immigration you need a hard border somewhere!
Some no-dealers appear to be gunning for it as an outcome for this reason
I honestly cannot imagine any stance from the EU other than "trade talks cannot take place with a country in violation of a peace treaty signed with a member state, a precondition of any talks is the normalisation of relations"
Also the fixed term parliament act needs to go die somewhere and be replaced by something that isn't a naked attempt to cling to power by the tories.
He didn't say there was one, he said they should show "common sense" and just drop the backstop. He's "very positive" that there's an alternative that could be reached if they did drop it, but obviously it's not his job to know what that technical workaround is. Afterall, it's the EU's problem, they should suggest something.
there is no solution, that's the problem.
This. Federalism in the UK is an idea that has had its time and that time was 2014. It's something that was faithfully promised to us in exchange for staying in the union and it was so completely forgotten the day after the vote you'd be forgiven for thinking it was never mentioned. Even if the Scottish electorate was to believe that a second time, which I doubt they are, differences have cropped up that even federalism can't paper over. Scotland wants to be in the EU and England doesn't, there's simply no way to square that with the United Kingdom. The political cultures have radically diverged and the polarising of mutually exclusive viewpoints is getting more and more entrenched. It's happening at breakneck pace now.
Independence is coming now, hard to say when but the Tories swing to right wing populism and the political impossibility of removing them from government means it's inevitable.
Wales is still a thing, so UK would probably stick around for a bit. If nothing else, it would hardly be the first country to have a misleading name.
Wales is technically not a kingdom though. But they did keep France in the coat of arms for like 300 years after the end of the HYW so there is precedence.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/pn2
First time since 2012
mantappingtemplewisely.gif
We live in In interesting times....
I am a bit confused of the Tories willingness to rule over a no deal Brexit. I assume they'll spend a lot of time/convincing the general public that any problems arising from no deal are purely down the the EU.
that's what the whole backstop business is about
they get to claim that the EU is unwilling to compromise and so their hand is forced toward a No Deal Brexit
of course, the truth of the matter is compromise on the backstop will literally end up killing people, so of course the EU is unwilling to compromise
it's an intractable position, so as long as you can spin the narrative it's not your fault, you don't have to take the blame for the fallout of no deal
Wait, they are doing a snap election immediately AFTER no deal brexit? Are they completely mad?
They're malevolently stupid cunts, yes
they're probably betting they gain seats as their rabble is roused by a successful brexit but the consequences aren't clear yet
The plan is to time it so it's too late for anyone to undo the deed and hopefully pick up jubilant Brexiteer votes, but also too soon for it to settle in how these 'teething problems' are actually the new permanent state of fucked we live in and their popularity to tank with everyone on all sides. Then ride that fixed term parliament act as long they can.
Certainly a better option than elections six months afterwards.
That last period is where the racist demagoguery starts really settling in. Conservatives worldwide are realizing that they don’t need to govern well if they turn their constituents into a white supremacist cult.
long-term thinking isn't really in the wheelhouse of these kinds of people
to be fair
also due to a failure of long-term thinking
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It's this
In principle Johnson could call a snap election, setting a date after 31st October, and dissolve parliament. Thus no-deal is a fait accompli with no opportunity for parliament to intervene
Whether or not this is legal is a current hot topic of debate among constitutional lawyers, the "purdah" convention is supposed to stop governments making significant policy decisions during election campaigns, precisely to restrain governments that don't expect to win an election from doing anything wacky
Why aren’t you fucking cunts running for the microphone to scream about how this is terrible? Nngghhhrghhghh
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