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American Carnage - 31 Killed Between Mass Shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio

1464749515264

Posts

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Variable wrote: »
    I don't want to post this without comment but it seems to completely undermine his own proposal. I basically never accept the notion that he's doing something strategic but if you wanted to create a scenario where a republican proposes gun control and democrats had to oppose it this would be a pretty good approach. say you want background checks just like them but make it blatantly obvious that you'd use it to punish political rivals.


    If filthy language and losing control were the legal standard for not having access to weapons, Trump wouldn’t have the nuclear codes and I’d feel a lot safer

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  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    edited August 14
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Editing this to be sure I'm not jamming my foot down my mouth as hard as possible, and just recommending future readers check this article out instead to clarify the victim's identity.

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    Cello on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    Trump will do what the people on TV tell him to do. I will 100% guarantee that around 9:37 Fox aired a thing about Cuomo's encounter with an asshole last night.

    Specifically, someone called Cuomo Freido. (Yes, this is a thing that happened, and I can get why it angered him the way it did.)

    AngelHedgie on
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  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Variable wrote: »
    I don't want to post this without comment but it seems to completely undermine his own proposal. I basically never accept the notion that he's doing something strategic but if you wanted to create a scenario where a republican proposes gun control and democrats had to oppose it this would be a pretty good approach. say you want background checks just like them but make it blatantly obvious that you'd use it to punish political rivals.


    The first half a dozen replies to that tweet is McAfee giving away bitcoins and "people" claiming to have received them.

    You guys are is some weird hell dimension.

    Move to New Zealand
    It’s not a very important country most of the time
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  • TNTrooperTNTrooper Registered User regular
    Did Cuomo say he could walk down a street shooting people and not lose any supporters or something?

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    TNTrooper wrote: »
    Did Cuomo say he could walk down a street shooting people and not lose any supporters or something?

    Nah, somebody came up to him and called him Fredo because he's Andrew Cuomo's less successful brother (Fredo was Michael Corleone's idiot brother). Chris took that as a slur against Italians and got very mad. It went viral on the right because MEDIA MAN GOT ANGRY HUR HUR

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I mean if Trump wants to open the "says idiotic things while mad" as a red flag for preventing people to owning guns pretty much his whole twitter fan base would lose their guns.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    RickRudeXaquinMegaMekJaysonFourkimeFencingsaxHarry DresdenBlackDragon480AbsoluteZeroTofystedeththatassemblyguyJazzmarajiVeagleButters
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Donnicton wrote: »
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shooting-texas-idUSKCN1V3013

    Reuters reporting that El Paso has seen an upsurge in hispanics purchasing handguns and taking firearms classes now that they feel they're targets for mass shootings.

    As well, the governor seems to agree that the solution to guns is more guns.
    Gun control is definitely not on the horizon for Texas, where Governor Greg Abbot recently signed into law nine bills, backed by the National Rifle Association, that will loosen up gun regulations starting on Sept. 1.

    One of the new laws lifts a ban on carrying firearms in places of worship. That ban came after a gunman fatally shot 26 people at a church in Sutherland Springs. Another stops landlords from prohibiting firearms on their rental properties.

    So much for property rights.

    It's got a right to be shot at. Just like everyone else.

    For the record, since everybody has commented on removing the ban on firearms in places of worship, the law cleaned up previous language.

    30.06/30.07 signage prohibiting legal concealed/open carry still apply to legal carriers. So if a church did not allow firearms to be carried, they could still have legal recourse to prevent that. The old law was written in such a way that even though it wasn’t expressly forbidden for legal carriers, it was also not clear that it was permitted to carry. There was a lot of confusion on that. This allows for the carry of firearms in a place of worship if the required signage isn’t posted.

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  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    edited August 13
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    This is why stricter, stronger control measures are needed. Because people will buy for those who can't buy for themselves. All the regulation in the world won't matter if you get people willing to buy and give guns and mods to others.

    JaysonFour on
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    MegaMekBlackDragon480Jazz
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Donnicton wrote: »
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shooting-texas-idUSKCN1V3013

    Reuters reporting that El Paso has seen an upsurge in hispanics purchasing handguns and taking firearms classes now that they feel they're targets for mass shootings.

    As well, the governor seems to agree that the solution to guns is more guns.
    Gun control is definitely not on the horizon for Texas, where Governor Greg Abbot recently signed into law nine bills, backed by the National Rifle Association, that will loosen up gun regulations starting on Sept. 1.

    One of the new laws lifts a ban on carrying firearms in places of worship. That ban came after a gunman fatally shot 26 people at a church in Sutherland Springs. Another stops landlords from prohibiting firearms on their rental properties.

    So much for property rights.

    It's got a right to be shot at. Just like everyone else.

    For the record, since everybody has commented on removing the ban on firearms in places of worship, the law cleaned up previous language.

    30.06/30.07 signage prohibiting legal concealed/open carry still apply to legal carriers. So if a church did not allow firearms to be carried, they could still have legal recourse to prevent that. The old law was written in such a way that even though it wasn’t expressly forbidden for legal carriers, it was also not clear that it was permitted to carry. There was a lot of confusion on that. This allows for the carry of firearms in a place of worship if the required signage isn’t posted.

    I was thinking more along the lines of apartments.

  • Lord PalingtonLord Palington he.him.his Registered User regular
    Viskod wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    Donnicton wrote: »
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shooting-texas-idUSKCN1V3013

    Reuters reporting that El Paso has seen an upsurge in hispanics purchasing handguns and taking firearms classes now that they feel they're targets for mass shootings.

    As well, the governor seems to agree that the solution to guns is more guns.
    Gun control is definitely not on the horizon for Texas, where Governor Greg Abbot recently signed into law nine bills, backed by the National Rifle Association, that will loosen up gun regulations starting on Sept. 1.

    One of the new laws lifts a ban on carrying firearms in places of worship. That ban came after a gunman fatally shot 26 people at a church in Sutherland Springs. Another stops landlords from prohibiting firearms on their rental properties.

    So much for property rights.

    It's got a right to be shot at. Just like everyone else.

    For the record, since everybody has commented on removing the ban on firearms in places of worship, the law cleaned up previous language.

    30.06/30.07 signage prohibiting legal concealed/open carry still apply to legal carriers. So if a church did not allow firearms to be carried, they could still have legal recourse to prevent that. The old law was written in such a way that even though it wasn’t expressly forbidden for legal carriers, it was also not clear that it was permitted to carry. There was a lot of confusion on that. This allows for the carry of firearms in a place of worship if the required signage isn’t posted.

    Good to know my church won't need to update our (super large and conspicuous) signs.

    SrUxdlb.jpg
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    2vue7ao.png
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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    I said brother at the end. I wanted to make sure I had it straight. That it wasn't something else I was confusing it with. It was the person who was identified as the sister , who actually had transitions ,and was dating a male. Maybe he did kill his brother .

    How is any of that innapropriate phrasing when I'm just trying to make sure I have my facts straight ? Feels like I'm being jumped on when I was just asking a simple question. Maybe this is a touchy subject for you.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    I just literally found out about this in the thread. I had never heard this mentioned at all.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    How is any of that innapropriate phrasing when I'm just trying to make sure I have my facts straight ? Feels like I'm being jumped on when I was just asking a simple question. Maybe this is a touchy subject for you.

    Well, it's a touchy subject for a lot of people. But I also thought you were being jumped on rather quickly for trying to get your pronouns straight. The media was not reporting this, so how were we to know?

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    As far as we know, brother had not come out to Dayton shooter, so was not targeted because of that.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    My church is explicitly anti-gun and has gotten David Hogg to come out in November for a special event

    My wife’s response was we can’t go because she’s afraid such an event with David Hogg especially is unsafe

  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    I said brother at the end. I wanted to make sure I had it straight. That it wasn't something else I was confusing it with. It was the person who was identified as the sister , who actually had transitions ,and was dating a male. Maybe he did kill his brother .

    How is any of that innapropriate phrasing when I'm just trying to make sure I have my facts straight ? Feels like I'm being jumped on when I was just asking a simple question. Maybe this is a touchy subject for you.

    In my experience the typical preference is not to refer to sex assigned at birth at all. Media reporting on this has made it pretty difficult to figure out since the news didn't break so much as trickle out when no one was looking.

    It is basically impossible to tell the part it played in the shooting though. The shooter's brother wasn't out to his family from what we know. That doesn't preclude the shooter learning about it by accident the day of or suspecting something. Secrets have a way of coming out on their own at times. Someone close to the brother would need to come forward with what they thought to settle it to any real extent, and from what I can tell they are all happier not being identified as part of the story.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    I said brother at the end. I wanted to make sure I had it straight. That it wasn't something else I was confusing it with. It was the person who was identified as the sister , who actually had transitions ,and was dating a male. Maybe he did kill his brother .

    How is any of that innapropriate phrasing when I'm just trying to make sure I have my facts straight ? Feels like I'm being jumped on when I was just asking a simple question. Maybe this is a touchy subject for you.

    In my experience the typical preference is not to refer to sex assigned at birth at all. Media reporting on this has made it pretty difficult to figure out since the news didn't break so much as trickle out when no one was looking.

    It is basically impossible to tell the part it played in the shooting though. The shooter's brother wasn't out to his family from what we know. That doesn't preclude the shooter learning about it by accident the day of or suspecting something. Secrets have a way of coming out on their own at times. Someone close to the brother would need to come forward with what they thought to settle it to any real extent, and from what I can tell they are all happier not being identified as part of the story.

    Dayton PD sound like they believe it was planned and something he had fantasized about for a while. They remain conflicted on targeting and motive.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    I said brother at the end. I wanted to make sure I had it straight. That it wasn't something else I was confusing it with. It was the person who was identified as the sister , who actually had transitions ,and was dating a male. Maybe he did kill his brother .

    How is any of that innapropriate phrasing when I'm just trying to make sure I have my facts straight ? Feels like I'm being jumped on when I was just asking a simple question. Maybe this is a touchy subject for you.

    In my experience the typical preference is not to refer to sex assigned at birth at all. Media reporting on this has made it pretty difficult to figure out since the news didn't break so much as trickle out when no one was looking.

    It is basically impossible to tell the part it played in the shooting though. The shooter's brother wasn't out to his family from what we know. That doesn't preclude the shooter learning about it by accident the day of or suspecting something. Secrets have a way of coming out on their own at times. Someone close to the brother would need to come forward with what they thought to settle it to any real extent, and from what I can tell they are all happier not being identified as part of the story.

    Dayton PD sound like they believe it was planned and something he had fantasized about for a while. They remain conflicted on targeting and motive.

    Some mass shooters seem to do it largely for the hell of it, like the Vegas shooter.

  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Cello wrote: »
    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    If he was still not out to the general public, wouldn't it be an invasion of his privacy to use male pronouns when discussing him publicly? Sure, it's already public knowledge now, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't think before deciding to signal boost it. Have his family or close friends approved the release of this information, at least?

  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    You can just click that link there to find out

    2vue7ao.png
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    You can just click that link there to find out

    It does seem pretty solid in this case, yeah.

  • fedaykin666fedaykin666 Registered User regular
    In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).

    I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?

    To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.

    People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).

    I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?

    To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.

    People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.

    That's part of the complete intransigence. All of it is. NRA would go all out on that in seconds.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Illegal guns were all probably legal at some point

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Problem is not really that US considers gun ownership a right.
    But that it is not considered a responsibility.
    It's a toy, a nifty thing to have, possibly a security blanket that more often than not does the opposite of intended result.
    And there is next to no requirement, or enforcement, for safe handling and storage as far as i can tell.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).

    I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?

    To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.

    People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.

    Yes, what you are describing is what the USA calls "gun control."

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  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Cello wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    New details coming out about the Dayton shooter. Reading the article now

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/08/13/us/dayton-mass-shooting/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    Man his friend is a piece of shit, like you didn't kill people but you hid the shit he used dude, and why the fuck and knew he was mentally disturbed as fuck.

    Police seem divided on if he intentionally killed his sister. I thought she was a target for sure. This one seems like it could have been prevented somehow.

    Best information we have is that you are misgendering his brother, FYI

    EDIT: As is CNN

    ? I'm confused

    Reports came out that the victim was a not-fully-out trans person who identified as male, and had only come out to some of their close friends

    As such it's more appropriate to call them by their preferred pronouns of he/him

    A lot of the major media outlets haven't followed this unfortunately

    Teen Vogue is, as usual, one of the best reporting on the subject

    https://www.teenvogue.com/story/jordan-cofer-trans-victim-dayton-mass-shooting

    This is the first I've heard of it. So the suspects sister was transitioning to a male and was dating a male. I hadn't heard this, makes it seem like his brother could have been a target.

    Folks, please do better about this, he isn't the suspect's sister, and he isn't "a person who identified as male and prefered he/him"; he's a guy

    Sorry if my post was written poorly, I was trying to be careful in describing his identity since I hadn't seen a clear statement of his pronouns, and clearly failed in the process. Sincere apologies for the mistake and if you were hurt in the process of me doing bad at this.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).

    I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?

    To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.

    People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.

    I'd also note that for whatever gun culture there is, it pales in comparison to the USA. Per the wiki, there are more guns than people in the States (120.5 per 100 people). The next closest country is the Falkland Islands at 62.1. The Czech Republic comes in at 12.5, which is the highest in Eastern Europe, but not exactly some crazy number when compared to the entire continent.

  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 14
    In terms of trying to make these tragedies rarer, without directly facing the massive gun corporate lobbies and right to bear arms, do you guys analyze other countries' methods and crime stats? Eg. The Czech Republic has extremely low gun crime rates, while also having a significant gun culture. There are some similarities in the gun culture as well in that the legal right to own them is considered an important freedom (because obviously the Nazis and then later the Soviets didn't allow people to have them).

    I don't know why the crime rates are so very different, but it seems US could use more red tape?

    To get a licence, you need to apply to the police and your name goes on the gun owner central database with your background check, and you have to do a theoretical and practical exam (safe handling, knowledge of relevant law, first aid, accuracy). And pay some fees of course.

    People who go through that process very rarely commit crimes with their guns and the small number of gun crimes in the country mainly come from illegally obtained weapons, which is probably pretty difficult for random aggrieved/ unstable guy without criminal contacts.

    A database of guns, gun owners, or gun sales is literally banned by law in the USA.

    https://www.thetrace.org/2016/08/atf-non-searchable-databases/
    To perform a search, ATF investigators must find the specific index number of a former dealer, then search records chronologically for records of the exact gun they seek. They may review thousands of images in a search before they find the weapon they are looking for. That’s because dealer records are required to be “non-searchable” under federal law. Keyword searches, or sorting by date or any other field, are strictly prohibited.
    The 1968 Gun Control Act gave the ATF authority to regulate federally licensed gun dealers. In 1978, the ATF tried to make dealers report most sales each quarter. The National Rifle Association and other groups denounced the plan, and lobbied to kill the reporting requirement. Congress did as the gun lobby requested, blocking the quarterly report proposal and reducing the ATF’s budget by $5 million: the amount the agency had sought to update its computer capacity.

    “From that point on, if you even said ‘computer’ at ATF headquarters, everybody ran and hid in a closet,” says William Vizzard, a former ATF special agent and emeritus professor of criminal justice at California State University, Sacramento.

    The war on searchable technology continued. In 1986, Congress enacted the Firearms Protection Act, which bans the ATF from creating a registry of guns, gun owners or gun sales.

    Congress also put a rider barring the agency from “consolidation or centralization” of gun dealers’ records in every spending bill affecting the agency from 1979 through 2011, then made the prohibition permanent, under law.

    Edit: The best comparison I can think of is how there is a difference between a place where cars are common and almost required and a place where cars are practically worshiped and criticism of anything about them is heresy. It is fairly easy to put various safety restrictions on getting a car in the former while it is almost unthinkable in the latter.

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  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    It does not sound like anyone on this forum is against computerizing ATF records or building a registry.

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  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    I dunno, a registry has received significant push-back in the past.

    I'm fairly sure we had a thread about it when a NY newspaper (I think it was NY) published the names out of a state (?) registry that, AFAIK, was public data. I think it happened maybe shortly after Sandy Hook. Gun rights folks flipped their ever-loving shit.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    It does not sound like anyone on this forum is against computerizing ATF records or building a registry.

    They don't have to be because again its literally against the law. It's like I don't have to be rabidly anti vampire since vampires don't exist.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
    Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
    Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...

    The argument that America is especially awful so can't physically do a thing many other countries do is always weird.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
    Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...

    The argument that America is especially awful so can't physically do a thing many other countries do is always weird.

    The argument against is that america is terrible with registries of things and the fear that such a registry would lead to confiscation. Because when I registered my car I was terrified Al Gore would come take it immediately.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
    Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...

    The argument that America is especially awful so can't physically do a thing many other countries do is always weird.

    It's the flipside of American Exceptionalism, weaponized by the status quo.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    i'm pretty sure i remember people arguing against a gun registry.
    Usually on the basis of it not working, being too expensive, can't be done, etc...

    The argument that America is especially awful so can't physically do a thing many other countries do is always weird.

    The argument against is that america is terrible with registries of things and the fear that such a registry would lead to confiscation. Because when I registered my car I was terrified Al Gore would come take it immediately.

    Or how voter registration lists, which includes residential addresses of voters and if they voted in an election, are frequently public in the USA.

    PreachershrykeNobeard
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