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Question about PS3 Backward Compatibility, SotC
Ledneh
shinesquawkRegistered User regular
shinesquawkRegistered User regular
I was playing Shadow of the Colossus a bit ago on my PS2, and running into the usual framerate issues (especially when I went after #16, as most of you know that one is especially bad). I don't know whether these slowdowns are because
- it was artistic looking, so the devs artifically limited it
- the devs knew the PS2 would choke and artifically limited it
- it's not artifically limited, and is just running into the PS2's wall
but it occurred to me to think, if it is indeed the last one that is the cause of the chugging, then maybe the PS3 could actually run it at full steam?
I guess what I wanna ask is, has anyone played SotC on a PS3 and noticed if the framerate issues were resolved compared to the PS2, or if ANY games would exhibit this sort of behavior?
- it was artistic looking, so the devs artifically limited it
- the devs knew the PS2 would choke and artifically limited it
- it's not artifically limited, and is just running into the PS2's wall
but it occurred to me to think, if it is indeed the last one that is the cause of the chugging, then maybe the PS3 could actually run it at full steam?
I guess what I wanna ask is, has anyone played SotC on a PS3 and noticed if the framerate issues were resolved compared to the PS2, or if ANY games would exhibit this sort of behavior?
Ledneh on
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Actually, US and Japanese PS3's contain the PS2 hardware inside the system. That is, they contain the Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer chips. So the backwards compatibility is largely a hardware solution, and thus runs games identically to how they run on PS2.
The European PS3's had these parts removed, and the emulation is done via software. However, it has been tooled to run the games just like they ran on the PS2.
So no, the game runs no better on PS3. It certainly could, but it's not designed to. The game would have to be re-programed for the PS3 in order for it to run better. I think the framerate problems in the original game stem from all the prettiness being pushed by the hardware, though maybe more development time could have optimized it further. In spite of its framerate niggles, SoTC is still a fantastically beautiful game.
EDIT: I have played SoTC on my PS3 and it runs identically to how it does on a PS2. Same for every PS2 game I've played on the PS3.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
So yeah, since the PS3 relies on hardware to run PS2 games there's no upscaling, no shorter load times and no improved framerates. If they eventually get the backwards compatibility running completely by software then yeah, it's possible.
In either case, at least Sony's BC support is still leagues ahead of Microsoft's, in terms of sheer numbers. I'd love it if everything was fully BC these days without problems, but that may be wishful thinking.
Also, I wonder what will happen with the next generation in regards to BC...those systems would have to be beasts to run this gen's stuff correctly, right? Well, except maybe the Wii.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
So this didn't really help my "on-the-fence-about-buying-a-PS3"-ness at all like I thought it would
Wish I had friends with a PS3 nearby, could just try it for myself. Too bad Gamestop would never let me try it at their demo kiosk or something
Aren't most games that are both 1. Good and 2. Exclusive compatible on 360 now?
Plus original xbox games upscale don't they?
That is for the most part true. I should have rephrased that to read "When you're using hardware vs. software emulation, the one big advantage is number of compatible titles."
Some of the Xbox games still have some major game-stopping bugs in them, like PDO and Mercenaries. There were many fits of rage in the recent Xbox 360 BC thread when these bugs were discovered. So it's not perfect yet. The PS3 BC is able to recreate original bugs in their full glory, instead of having new ones.
All kidding aside, yes the Xbox games do scale up, though this works best if the game originally supported widescreen mode. In the case of certain games, such as the first Halo, the game plays in a windowboxed format on a widescreen TV.
Some games also look kind of funny upscaled, and I end up just playing in their original resolution, like Breakdown. (Which I've found to be an awesome game).
So, I wasn't trying to knock the Microsoft BC at all, in fact I really enjoy it. Rather, Sony's one big advantage in that arena is sheer numbers.
Back OT: Since the PS3 uses the original graphics technology from the PS2 no matter what territory you buy one in, my guess is that you're not going to see any improvement in SoTC in terms of performance, at least not in the near term. If they do manage to get games working at 720p, that will be an exciting day indeed! But right now, if you're looking to upgrade to a PS3 solely for improvements to SoTC, then don't. You'll likely be met with disappointment.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
I haven't experienced any bugs in PDO that I would call game-stopping. In fact, I've only experienced one bug in the entire game. When the boss fight for episode 7 started the game would artifact like hell and I couldn't fight the boss so I died, but when I got the game over message, I selected the option to restart at the boss fight and everything was as it should be. Annoying, yes, but I wouldn't call it game-stopping.
New PS3's don't have the PS2 hardware. Only the older PS3's have it.
I never asked for this!
In the EU, PDO crashes at the end of level 3, and JSRF still doesn't work at all.
Worldwide, there are still only a couple of hundred Xbox games the work. And the scaling is very hit and miss. Some games scale, but then only run with borders at the side so it's not in widescreen, so that can be hit and miss too.
So as pertains to the topic, does this mean "newer" PS3s would have a better shot at improved SotC performance (along with better chance of bugs without the original hardware, I guess)?
Is there a way to identify older v. newer PS3s?
That would require extra work on the emulation of the game. That requires work. Work requires money. SOny likes money so they probably won't make any improvements on the framerate of the games.
my Wii plays all my gamecube games
Haven't you been paying attention?
It does seem a little underhanded that the PS2 has a list consisting of five or six crappy games and Tomba as the only PS1 games it refuses to play (thanks to included hardware), yet the first run PS3s have a EE+GS chip and their BC is still nowhere near as good as it should be.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
I don't think so. I haven't heard anything about it.
Yep, from what I've heard anyway. It'll probably be a few months before the US receives the later models.
Einhander: How is it underhanded? The PS1 was an insanely simple system, the PS2 isn't.
So you don't think they've removed the chip because you haven't heard they've removed the chip? O_o o_O
They're losing a lot of money on the PS3, so they take some of the components they don't absolutely need out. It's pretty understandable.
And since when has the US backwards compatibility been bad? I thought all the problems were fixed a while ago and it's fine now? It doesn't have any upscaling but that's to be expected.
What? Where did you hear it didn't work that well with hardware? There are little problems and the Playstation 2 library in almost it's entirety is backwards compatible with the Playstation 3. That's because, you know, it's running off hardware emulation, similar to the Playstation 2 running Playstation games.
They took out the hardware emulation for the European systems, but over 50% of the library is still backwards compatible. There's also an update around the corner, apparently, that improves compatibility.
The United States machines still have the hardware emulation inside the Playstation 3s. It's rumored that they're going to remove it for later revisions, but there's no word yet on when or even any confirmation. It'll probably happen, but right now it's not.
I just have no faith in software emulation as NONE of my Xbox games run correctly on my 360, it is frustrating.
Software emulation is harder but the rewards are far greater. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's possible to reduce load times and upscale games. Affecting the game itself (like keeping the framerate steady) is also possible but probably not going to happen.
Would it be better to pick up the 60gb with the engine or the 80 without?
WiiU: jooncole (Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate)
3DS: 2122-5983-8919
The emotion engine has a better overall level of compatibility than the non-EE models. So if you want to ensure maximum BC for PS2 games, you'll want the EE chip.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
Here is a list of the BC compatible games on the EU PS3, although slightly outdated, as the 1.9 firmware apparently increased it once more.
One compliant people have is that some games are marked as having "minor" or "noticeable" issues. I have to say, my expectation was that those would both be marketing speak for "nigh-unplayable". That is utterly false.
I played through God of War on the 1.8 firmware, which is marked as having noticeable issues, the only ones I ever saw were a very occasional flicker of garbage over the save points, and the animated gifs used to tell you to pull stuff would have an animation frame screwed up. These were both "noticeable" as in I saw them without having to look too hard, but in no way whatsoever did they impact the game.
Even better was Final Fantasy 12. When I played through it it was marked as having minor issues. What those issues were I could not tell you though, all I ever noticed was a slight line of garbage across the very left hand edge of the screen during the ending cut-scene. It did not intrude onto the cut-scene itself, and I suspect it may have been my monitor showing me stuff that was meant to be cut off by the screen itself.
Basically, if the game is on the list at all, it is perfectly playable. The emulation will not impact your enjoyment of the game at all. Although in fairness, I have heard horror stories about some games, last I heard Metal Gear Solid 2s cut-scenes went mental. but I haven't bothered trying it yet, so I can't comment first hand. I believe those are a very select minority though.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
is there any truth to this?
WiiU: jooncole (Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate)
3DS: 2122-5983-8919
I'm pretty sure that both versions of the hardware have the upscaling and smoothing capabilities, as that was added as part of the firmware updates and is independent of the hardware itself.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
First part: there was an upscaling issue with PS2 games that was the subject of much hyperbole on the internet echo chamber. It's been fixed in an online update.
Second part: In North America, the 60 GB models have the EE chip while the 80 GB models use software emulation. Also, the 60 GB models are no longer in production and once they've all been sold through there will be only 80 GB models with software emulation available.
brynstar: The North American 60 GB models can upscale the image, but because it's running actual PS2 hardware it can't render at a higher resolution. Meaning: the games still render at 640x480 (or 640x240 in some cases), but then that image is scaled up to fit your TV output settings. The 80 GB models with software emulation can theoretically render PS2 games at higher resolutions (like 1280x720 or 1920x1080).
Bruan: The "EE" is the "Emotion Engine," the actual CPU of the original PS2. Having the EE in the PS3 allows it to run PS2 code natively. The models that don't have it have to emulate the EE in software.
Second part: You replied to my post a little late. :P At the time, there was no definite information about the chip being removed. Now there is, of course, so what you said is true. What I said was also true at the time of posting.
PSN ID : Xander51 Steam ID : Xander51
Oh ... hah ... :P
I didn't realize this thread was a resurrected oldie. :P Egg on my face.
I mean, BC in software is pretty darned close to BC in the EE at this point, and if you can do MORE with software emulation (higher resolution rendering rather than upscaling)... then why not?