Yeah the New coherency rule is really an Anti-Congo Line rule, and based on the chatter I've heard from the people I know who play AoS a lot more than I do, its a good thing. I heard it described as a fantasy onion peeling simulator recently due to all the layers people are wrapping stuff in.
It is a good thing, but all 32mm+ units lose half their attacks. It’s a hefty nerf for a lot of units that didn’t need it.
I don't understand where losing half their attacks comes from?
Two 32mm bases an inch apart leaves plenty of room for a third to snuggle in behind and be within an inch of the enemy they are lined up against.
Though cavalry bases may cause more issues I guess.
Try placing 10 32mm next to that unit so every model can attack with 1” reach and always has two models within 1”. Now lose one model by casualties.
Let me know when you see the problem.
The moment you lose one model you lose half the unit on top immediately. Because the loss of any one model means all the others can’t be within 1” of two, so you lose half the unit at some point on the outlying sides
???
Still not getting you. Just keep extending the formation as is. Everyone is within 1” of the enemy line and has plenty enough neighbours to stay alive if you remove guys from the ends because you’re within coherency of your neighbour on both ranks on the same side.
Yeah the New coherency rule is really an Anti-Congo Line rule, and based on the chatter I've heard from the people I know who play AoS a lot more than I do, its a good thing. I heard it described as a fantasy onion peeling simulator recently due to all the layers people are wrapping stuff in.
It is a good thing, but all 32mm+ units lose half their attacks. It’s a hefty nerf for a lot of units that didn’t need it.
I don't understand where losing half their attacks comes from?
Two 32mm bases an inch apart leaves plenty of room for a third to snuggle in behind and be within an inch of the enemy they are lined up against.
Though cavalry bases may cause more issues I guess.
Try placing 10 32mm next to that unit so every model can attack with 1” reach and always has two models within 1”. Now lose one model by casualties.
Let me know when you see the problem.
The moment you lose one model you lose half the unit on top immediately. Because the loss of any one model means all the others can’t be within 1” of two, so you lose half the unit at some point on the outlying sides
???
Still not getting you. Just keep extending the formation as is. Everyone is within 1” of the enemy line and has plenty enough neighbours to stay alive if you remove guys from the ends because you’re within coherency of your neighbour on both ranks on the same side.
Assuming the enemy is in a perfect line, which can happen with 25mm bases that can do that or potentially larger models like cavalry etc. I will acknowledge having put models on the table this could work if you can perfectly set it up. Losing attacks from models is basically required in real situations, such as this:
A slight curve means the Dryads on either side cannot attack. All the 25mm base models can easily attack and lose nothing. Additionally a single error from the 32mm player costs an additional model via coherency if they accidentally remove the dryad on the far right. This was the most I could get in, assuming an optimal charge and pile in without losing the majority of attacks. I am also not convinced some dryads can attack either.
So yes, like the torturous examples I have seen of cavalry all attacking, if for some reason you can make a perfectly straight line of enemies and charge it optimally, and form an incredibly specific formation, and make no mistakes at all, you won’t lose all your attacks.
Meanwhile 25mm mortek guard, among the best infantry in the game, do not care and have zero risk. It’s just not a required nerf to larger base models.
Yeah it gets messy when you overlap your opponent for sure. Just checking that I wasn't missing something and 'lose half their attacks' was hyperbole rather than strict maths forcing every other fighter out of range.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Yeah it gets messy when you overlap your opponent for sure. Just checking that I wasn't missing something and 'lose half their attacks' was hyperbole rather than strict maths forcing every other fighter out of range.
It depends on your base size tbh. 1” reach with 40mm is rough. And I did make that situation even with the curve at least realistic. If the unit is in a weird shape or 5 models they can easily pile in ways that will prevent you getting anywhere near the number of attacks you could currently.
I lost 3/10 or 30% of my total models to attack above. A smarter opponent could place those skeletons so they all attack by piling in etc but do not allow anywhere near an ideal line of models to attack them.
And in a tournament I can guarantee they would measure at least two others there (but they are just in).
because of various reasons I am still tempted to get at least two of the soul drain forest set but that terrain set
I don't have much AoS terrain so
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
Dryads have a 2" melee reach, so they're actually not so bad off in terms of attacks. It doesn't seem like they're doing much in terms of amending warscrolls for the edition launch, but it might be interesting to see 32mm 1" reach units becoming more of a strictly defensive piece while units with longer reach go on the offence, like Hedonite Twinsouls versus Myrmidesh.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
40K has units that have a sort of "skirmisher" rule, that allows them to have longer coherency ranges (4" instead of 2" as a random example)...does AoS have units like that? With the new restrictive 1" coherency, I wonder if GW plans to introduce that as a sub-rule for some units. When you read/listen/watch things about ancient warfare, which is kind of what fantasy warfare is based on, you hear about the tight formations...but you also hear about skirmishers and loose flanking formations a lot. I'd be curious to see if that becomes a more widely distributed rule with this new coherency stuff.
I'm pretty bummed about my Ogre Gluttons only being able to fight on the frontline while the rest of their unit stands around scratching themselves.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I hadn't considered this would be a stealth buff to some models, like Dryads, who definitely need it.
Mostly this change annoys me because I just invested in 30 dire wolves and 10 bloodknights. I can at least run the Bloodknights in groups of 5, but wolves are sadly a minimum 10 unit.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Battalions have leaked. You pick a bunch of units from a list and then they get a minor benefit, like being able to use a CA once for free. Interestingly, not all Battalions are one drops and only one is, which can accommodate 3 leaders, four battleline and an artillery/monster choice is dropped all at once (the others are not). They also might not cost points to use? I'm not 100% sure on that as Matched Play rules might be different.
Yeah, the MSU reinforcement points got me interested, as they totally change up the pace of combat. They also subsequently make the coherency rules a lot less destructive if you're mostly running MSU "large-base" units. And I think MSU is much much healthier for the game, as it makes the alternating activation a lot more interesting than just "who can activate their giant death bricks first"
McGibs on
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Wait, so for stuff like my plague monks I will need to spend reinforcement points to increase their unit size?
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Looks like it.
Also seems in line with the last few battletomes not giving points advantages for max size units anymore.
Hmmm, those battalions. You really won't take that many of them I guess. They use up so many leader units. Like at 2000 points you probably can't even fill out a warlord battalion because you won't have any leaders left for other battalions.
Wait, so for stuff like my plague monks I will need to spend reinforcement points to increase their unit size?
You still spend regular points to increase a unit size, but you can only do it 4 times in a 2000pt game, basically. It's like 40k's "rule of three" it looks like.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Wait, so for stuff like my plague monks I will need to spend reinforcement points to increase their unit size?
You still spend regular points to increase a unit size, but you can only do it 4 times in a 2000pt game, basically. It's like 40k's "rule of three" it looks like.
The way it sound it doesn't seem anything like rule of three. It sounds like if I want to run a unit of 40 plague monks I need to spend reinforcement points to do so.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Wait, so for stuff like my plague monks I will need to spend reinforcement points to increase their unit size?
You still spend regular points to increase a unit size, but you can only do it 4 times in a 2000pt game, basically. It's like 40k's "rule of three" it looks like.
The way it sound it doesn't seem anything like rule of three. It sounds like if I want to run a unit of 40 plague monks I need to spend reinforcement points to do so.
Yeah, and you get four reinforcement points at 2000pts.
I think they're quite different from what current reinforcement points are in 40k, for like summoning or whatever. They're separate from the points you build your army with.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Limited of 30 what? 30 plague monks total before reinforcements? Like like 3 units of 10 plague monks and then use 2 reinforcement points to get one to 40 so I'll have a total oy 60 plague monks between 3 units and 2 reinforcement points left?
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Limited of 30 what? 30 plague monks total before reinforcements? Like like 3 units of 10 plague monks and then use 2 reinforcement points to get one to 40 so I'll have a total oy 60 plague monks between 3 units and 2 reinforcement points left?
So here is how it works from my understanding. At 2k you have 4 reinforcement points. Assuming Plague Monks are taken in MSU of 10 you can do the following:
Any number of units of 10 plague monks
4 units of 20 plague monks at 1 reinforcement point each
2 units of 30 plague monks at 2 reinforcement points each
1 unit of 30 plague monks costing 2 reinforcement points and 2 units of 20 plague monks at 1 reinforcement point each
Basically it's a multiplier on the base MSU. It means some units will have their maximum reduced, like Mortek guard, as they are a base 10.
In some ways even if there isn't a change to coherency, this does impact a lot of the 25mm units much more than other things. A lot of attacks are lost from Mortek guard, plague monks, Sisters of Slaughter etc by having their maximum unit sizes dropped in this manner. Additionally you then can't increase other units above their normal MSU easily. So you're forced to take more smaller units, rather than death bricks backed up by other things.
Limited of 30 what? 30 plague monks total before reinforcements? Like like 3 units of 10 plague monks and then use 2 reinforcement points to get one to 40 so I'll have a total oy 60 plague monks between 3 units and 2 reinforcement points left?
Like aegeri said. Max unit size 30. For units that are minimum size 5, max size will be 15.
Reinforcement points do nothing with the number of units you can take, they're just used for the number of models in s unit.
So they don't limit the the amount of plaque monks units but only a few of those units, depending on army size can be larger than 10 models
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I really hope there are exceptions for horde armies or something. That rule seems really unfun. Not being able to run 40 model units of plague monks and such.
This also really hurts the Skaven and their rules for using larger size units.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I really hope there are exceptions for horde armies or something. That rule seems really unfun. Not being able to run 40 model units of plague monks and such.
This also really hurts the Skaven and their rules for using larger size units.
And yet, they've literally just nerfed every single 32mm model in the game with the new coherency rules. This is the closest thing I've seen to giving something back for that nerf, because now you can't get 40 man blobs of things like Mortek Guard.
But you can still run 40 marauders. That's still scary.
A stiff breeze of what? other small units of chaff?
You have 3 units of 10 rats instead of one block of 30. your opponent has equal amounts of small units. you're each activating MSU in alternation. You're speaking like this change only effects your army, and not the entire game.
You get two players, each with 3 units of 10 "horde" troops engaged in combat. Instead of player A activating their block of 30 guys and just wiping out player B's block of 30 guys, you now get player A activating one unit of 10, chipping a bit off unit B's unit of 10, then B activates one of his units of 10 and chips some off another of your small units, and so on and so on. Both players get a chance to get some licks in without one person just steamrolling the other.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited June 2021
Yeah this is a change that hits a lot of the bigger unit size smaller bases, but actually leaves the 32mm+ models alone for the most part.
It might be one of those cases where it looks like a stupid and bad change, but it is compensated for enough in another way that it kind of just works out.
Edit: Bigger models keep getting more and more given to them it looks like. Piling in rules may have changed to be that you only need to pile in closer to the UNIT you're closest to, instead of model. This means you cannot be pinned by being in base contact with multiple models from the same unit. So you can pile in around an enemy unit to bring other enemies into 3" (and therefore say, stop a shooting unit from being able to shoot anything other than your chaff next turn etc). This is a big advantage for things on larger bases that can occupy my space and means one of the advantages of smaller bases is removed.
A stiff breeze of what? other small units of chaff?
You have 3 units of 10 rats instead of one block of 30. your opponent has equal amounts of small units. you're each activating MSU in alternation. You're speaking like this change only effects your army, and not the entire game.
You get two players, each with 3 units of 10 "horde" troops engaged in combat. Instead of player A activating their block of 30 guys and just wiping out player B's block of 30 guys, you now get player A activating one unit of 10, chipping a bit off unit B's unit of 10, then B activates one of his units of 10 and chips some off another of your small units, and so on and so on. Both players get a chance to get some licks in without one person just steamrolling the other.
If plague monks and clanrats stay at a 10 min it doesn't give me any confidence that I'd still get to activate them against another 10 min unit.
Still hoping for exceptions for horde based armies.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Nah, hordes already got the biggest buff ever by making all units on large bases, like a lot of cavalry, lose a considerable number of attacks due to coherency. So them losing models and therefore attacks is a fair compensation.
Skaven alliegiance ability actually has bonuses for units at 20+ and 30+ models so while clan rats are okay (min size 20, so double is 40) plague monks and stormvermin are fucked (10 min sized).
Marauders are on 25mm bases. I actually just finished converting some Kairics acolytes to maruaders so I'd be making some big frowny faces if they changed the base size on me.
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???
Still not getting you. Just keep extending the formation as is. Everyone is within 1” of the enemy line and has plenty enough neighbours to stay alive if you remove guys from the ends because you’re within coherency of your neighbour on both ranks on the same side.
That's always been owner's choice, with specific rare exceptional spells and abilities that target a figure rather than a unit.
Assuming the enemy is in a perfect line, which can happen with 25mm bases that can do that or potentially larger models like cavalry etc. I will acknowledge having put models on the table this could work if you can perfectly set it up. Losing attacks from models is basically required in real situations, such as this:
A slight curve means the Dryads on either side cannot attack. All the 25mm base models can easily attack and lose nothing. Additionally a single error from the 32mm player costs an additional model via coherency if they accidentally remove the dryad on the far right. This was the most I could get in, assuming an optimal charge and pile in without losing the majority of attacks. I am also not convinced some dryads can attack either.
So yes, like the torturous examples I have seen of cavalry all attacking, if for some reason you can make a perfectly straight line of enemies and charge it optimally, and form an incredibly specific formation, and make no mistakes at all, you won’t lose all your attacks.
Meanwhile 25mm mortek guard, among the best infantry in the game, do not care and have zero risk. It’s just not a required nerf to larger base models.
It depends on your base size tbh. 1” reach with 40mm is rough. And I did make that situation even with the curve at least realistic. If the unit is in a weird shape or 5 models they can easily pile in ways that will prevent you getting anywhere near the number of attacks you could currently.
I lost 3/10 or 30% of my total models to attack above. A smarter opponent could place those skeletons so they all attack by piling in etc but do not allow anywhere near an ideal line of models to attack them.
And in a tournament I can guarantee they would measure at least two others there (but they are just in).
I don't have much AoS terrain so
Mostly this change annoys me because I just invested in 30 dire wolves and 10 bloodknights. I can at least run the Bloodknights in groups of 5, but wolves are sadly a minimum 10 unit.
At 2k points you apparently get 4 reinforcement points. Doubling a unit costs 1 point, tripling costs 2 points.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Also seems in line with the last few battletomes not giving points advantages for max size units anymore.
Hmmm, those battalions. You really won't take that many of them I guess. They use up so many leader units. Like at 2000 points you probably can't even fill out a warlord battalion because you won't have any leaders left for other battalions.
You still spend regular points to increase a unit size, but you can only do it 4 times in a 2000pt game, basically. It's like 40k's "rule of three" it looks like.
The way it sound it doesn't seem anything like rule of three. It sounds like if I want to run a unit of 40 plague monks I need to spend reinforcement points to do so.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Yeah, and you get four reinforcement points at 2000pts.
I think they're quite different from what current reinforcement points are in 40k, for like summoning or whatever. They're separate from the points you build your army with.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
So here is how it works from my understanding. At 2k you have 4 reinforcement points. Assuming Plague Monks are taken in MSU of 10 you can do the following:
Any number of units of 10 plague monks
4 units of 20 plague monks at 1 reinforcement point each
2 units of 30 plague monks at 2 reinforcement points each
1 unit of 30 plague monks costing 2 reinforcement points and 2 units of 20 plague monks at 1 reinforcement point each
Basically it's a multiplier on the base MSU. It means some units will have their maximum reduced, like Mortek guard, as they are a base 10.
In some ways even if there isn't a change to coherency, this does impact a lot of the 25mm units much more than other things. A lot of attacks are lost from Mortek guard, plague monks, Sisters of Slaughter etc by having their maximum unit sizes dropped in this manner. Additionally you then can't increase other units above their normal MSU easily. So you're forced to take more smaller units, rather than death bricks backed up by other things.
Like aegeri said. Max unit size 30. For units that are minimum size 5, max size will be 15.
Reinforcement points do nothing with the number of units you can take, they're just used for the number of models in s unit.
So they don't limit the the amount of plaque monks units but only a few of those units, depending on army size can be larger than 10 models
This also really hurts the Skaven and their rules for using larger size units.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
And yet, they've literally just nerfed every single 32mm model in the game with the new coherency rules. This is the closest thing I've seen to giving something back for that nerf, because now you can't get 40 man blobs of things like Mortek Guard.
But you can still run 40 marauders. That's still scary.
There would be no reason to run 10 man units of clanrats or plague monks though. A stiff breeze can wipe out 10+ models.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
You have 3 units of 10 rats instead of one block of 30. your opponent has equal amounts of small units. you're each activating MSU in alternation. You're speaking like this change only effects your army, and not the entire game.
You get two players, each with 3 units of 10 "horde" troops engaged in combat. Instead of player A activating their block of 30 guys and just wiping out player B's block of 30 guys, you now get player A activating one unit of 10, chipping a bit off unit B's unit of 10, then B activates one of his units of 10 and chips some off another of your small units, and so on and so on. Both players get a chance to get some licks in without one person just steamrolling the other.
It might be one of those cases where it looks like a stupid and bad change, but it is compensated for enough in another way that it kind of just works out.
Edit: Bigger models keep getting more and more given to them it looks like. Piling in rules may have changed to be that you only need to pile in closer to the UNIT you're closest to, instead of model. This means you cannot be pinned by being in base contact with multiple models from the same unit. So you can pile in around an enemy unit to bring other enemies into 3" (and therefore say, stop a shooting unit from being able to shoot anything other than your chaff next turn etc). This is a big advantage for things on larger bases that can occupy my space and means one of the advantages of smaller bases is removed.
Benefits monsters a lot as well.
If plague monks and clanrats stay at a 10 min it doesn't give me any confidence that I'd still get to activate them against another 10 min unit.
Still hoping for exceptions for horde based armies.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Marauders are on 25mm bases. I actually just finished converting some Kairics acolytes to maruaders so I'd be making some big frowny faces if they changed the base size on me.