his answer to the deportation question flew a little under the radar
ramos: account for all the deportations under obama
biden: i will be dodging this question, thanks
ramos: no you won't. answer it
biden: "i am the vice-president of the united states"
that's an actual quote, like i think those were his exact words
People here seem to think it’s ok to take a risk this election because there’s a shitty president in office.
But don’t forget, for some people opting out of voting and enduring Trump for another 4 years is a perfectly valid option if it means they can vote for a better Democrat in 4 years, as opposed to helping someone they don’t like much get elected into office and then having to wait 8 years for them to get out before a new Democrat is available. Personally I feel that is the route I would take if the candidate ended up being someone I couldn’t stand, like Yang for instance.
I disagree, I think most want a "risky" candidate who excites them because they believe (correctly IMO) that this election will be decided by the GOTV effort. Everyone already has an opinion on whether they love or hate Trump, with very few who are ambivalent, and you aren't going to get the people who are already thinking of voting for him again by presenting a nonthreatening alternative (in fact, one could make an argument that is the last sort of candidate who would make such a voter switch parties)
So it's about exciting the base to come out and vote. And a Biden run isn't going to excite people who want to see the progressive party in America commit to actually doing something, well, progressive, and not what sounds like as just return to what it was like before Trump.
More than that, I'd argue do you want to get Americans exited? You want to get them out there? You want to make them stand up and vote?
Don't play it safe. Sell em on the big dream, the big goal, the big adventure.
"We promise to go the Moon in this decade" is famous for a reason.
As an American, I want to do something big, something monumental. Don't bore me with petty ass plans for an incremental improvement to highway repair funds. Tell me we are going to repair all the highways, bridges and infrastructure in America by 2025. Tell me we are building a solar station in Death Valley big enough to power five states during the day.
Tell we are getting a fricking moon base.
Don't bore me with normality. Tell me where you want to go, and if I hear the words "back to" I am so outta here.
This is the crux of it, in my opinion. This is why the Wall is so important -- even though it was a terrible idea, it was an enormous dream. It inspired a sense of ambition and grandeur in the people who didn't immediately hate it. The only time I've seen a glimmer of something relatable in a Trump supporter's rhetoric was when I talked to my old boss in my hometown in mid-2016. We talked about the Wall. He said he wasn't sure whether the Wall was, itself, a good idea. But he was drawn to the kind of candidate who would propose something so huge. He was tired of inside baseball, incremental changes, and reactive policy. He wanted a candidate who would build something unprecedented.
I think that's an absolutely shit reason for supporting Trump, of course, and I basically told him as much. But I understand the feeling. It's why, as far as I'm concerned, Joe Biden can go piss into the wind. I'm more interested in Yang than I am in Biden, and I think Yang is trash. As a species, as a society, as a country, we can be breathtaking. I'm tired of candidates who won't seize on that potential and harness it to monumental ends.
People here seem to think it’s ok to take a risk this election because there’s a shitty president in office.
But don’t forget, for some people opting out of voting and enduring Trump for another 4 years is a perfectly valid option if it means they can vote for a better Democrat in 4 years, as opposed to helping someone they don’t like much get elected into office and then having to wait 8 years for them to get out before a new Democrat is available. Personally I feel that is the route I would take if the candidate ended up being someone I couldn’t stand, like Yang for instance.
I disagree, I think most want a "risky" candidate who excites them because they believe (correctly IMO) that this election will be decided by the GOTV effort. Everyone already has an opinion on whether they love or hate Trump, with very few who are ambivalent, and you aren't going to get the people who are already thinking of voting for him again by presenting a nonthreatening alternative (in fact, one could make an argument that is the last sort of candidate who would make such a voter switch parties)
So it's about exciting the base to come out and vote. And a Biden run isn't going to excite people who want to see the progressive party in America commit to actually doing something, well, progressive, and not what sounds like as just return to what it was like before Trump.
More than that, I'd argue do you want to get Americans exited? You want to get them out there? You want to make them stand up and vote?
Don't play it safe. Sell em on the big dream, the big goal, the big adventure.
"We promise to go the Moon in this decade" is famous for a reason.
As an American, I want to do something big, something monumental. Don't bore me with petty ass plans for an incremental improvement to highway repair funds. Tell me we are going to repair all the highways, bridges and infrastructure in America by 2025. Tell me we are building a solar station in Death Valley big enough to power five states during the day.
Tell we are getting a fricking moon base.
Don't bore me with normality. Tell me where you want to go, and if I hear the words "back to" I am so outta here.
This is the crux of it, in my opinion. This is why the Wall is so important -- even though it was a terrible idea, it was an enormous dream. It inspired a sense of ambition and grandeur in the people who didn't immediately hate it. The only time I've seen a glimmer of something relatable in a Trump supporter's rhetoric was when I talked to my old boss in my hometown in mid-2016. We talked about the Wall. He said he wasn't sure whether the Wall was, itself, a good idea. But he was drawn to the kind of candidate who would propose something so huge. He was tired of inside baseball, incremental changes, and reactive policy. He wanted a candidate who would build something unprecedented.
I think that's an absolutely shit reason for supporting Trump, of course, and I basically told him as much. But I understand the feeling. It's why, as far as I'm concerned, Joe Biden can go piss into the wind. I'm more interested in Yang than I am in Biden, and I think Yang is trash. As a species, as a society, as a country, we can be breathtaking. I'm tired of candidates who won't seize on that potential and harness it to monumental ends.
Our trust in that potential is kind of low right now. What can you say to a voter who follows up these promises with "...but congress refused to change."?
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
People here seem to think it’s ok to take a risk this election because there’s a shitty president in office.
But don’t forget, for some people opting out of voting and enduring Trump for another 4 years is a perfectly valid option if it means they can vote for a better Democrat in 4 years, as opposed to helping someone they don’t like much get elected into office and then having to wait 8 years for them to get out before a new Democrat is available. Personally I feel that is the route I would take if the candidate ended up being someone I couldn’t stand, like Yang for instance.
I disagree, I think most want a "risky" candidate who excites them because they believe (correctly IMO) that this election will be decided by the GOTV effort. Everyone already has an opinion on whether they love or hate Trump, with very few who are ambivalent, and you aren't going to get the people who are already thinking of voting for him again by presenting a nonthreatening alternative (in fact, one could make an argument that is the last sort of candidate who would make such a voter switch parties)
So it's about exciting the base to come out and vote. And a Biden run isn't going to excite people who want to see the progressive party in America commit to actually doing something, well, progressive, and not what sounds like as just return to what it was like before Trump.
More than that, I'd argue do you want to get Americans exited? You want to get them out there? You want to make them stand up and vote?
Don't play it safe. Sell em on the big dream, the big goal, the big adventure.
"We promise to go the Moon in this decade" is famous for a reason.
As an American, I want to do something big, something monumental. Don't bore me with petty ass plans for an incremental improvement to highway repair funds. Tell me we are going to repair all the highways, bridges and infrastructure in America by 2025. Tell me we are building a solar station in Death Valley big enough to power five states during the day.
Tell we are getting a fricking moon base.
Don't bore me with normality. Tell me where you want to go, and if I hear the words "back to" I am so outta here.
This is the crux of it, in my opinion. This is why the Wall is so important -- even though it was a terrible idea, it was an enormous dream. It inspired a sense of ambition and grandeur in the people who didn't immediately hate it. The only time I've seen a glimmer of something relatable in a Trump supporter's rhetoric was when I talked to my old boss in my hometown in mid-2016. We talked about the Wall. He said he wasn't sure whether the Wall was, itself, a good idea. But he was drawn to the kind of candidate who would propose something so huge. He was tired of inside baseball, incremental changes, and reactive policy. He wanted a candidate who would build something unprecedented.
I think that's an absolutely shit reason for supporting Trump, of course, and I basically told him as much. But I understand the feeling. It's why, as far as I'm concerned, Joe Biden can go piss into the wind. I'm more interested in Yang than I am in Biden, and I think Yang is trash. As a species, as a society, as a country, we can be breathtaking. I'm tired of candidates who won't seize on that potential and harness it to monumental ends.
Our trust in that potential is kind of low right now. What can you say to a voter who follows up these promises with "...but congress refused to change."?
I'm not sure I understand the question/its relevance. Are you asking me whether I approve of congress?
his answer to the deportation question flew a little under the radar
ramos: account for all the deportations under obama
biden: i will be dodging this question, thanks
ramos: no you won't. answer it
biden: "i am the vice-president of the united states"
that's an actual quote, like i think those were his exact words
Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said at the end there. As if saying he was the Vice-President was the only answer he needed to give.
his answer to the deportation question flew a little under the radar
ramos: account for all the deportations under obama
biden: i will be dodging this question, thanks
ramos: no you won't. answer it
biden: "i am the vice-president of the united states"
that's an actual quote, like i think those were his exact words
Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said at the end there. As if saying he was the Vice-President was the only answer he needed to give.
I mean, it kinda is. It's wasn't his show. And he can't have it both ways on the good parts of that but neither can we have it both ways on the bad.
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
his answer to the deportation question flew a little under the radar
ramos: account for all the deportations under obama
biden: i will be dodging this question, thanks
ramos: no you won't. answer it
biden: "i am the vice-president of the united states"
that's an actual quote, like i think those were his exact words
Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said at the end there. As if saying he was the Vice-President was the only answer he needed to give.
I mean, it kinda is. It's wasn't his show. And he can't have it both ways on the good parts of that but neither can we have it both ways on the bad.
The burden is on him to engage with those questions in good faith if he wants to claim the good parts. If he won't even engage, then IMO it's fair to put the bad parts on him and not give him credit for the good parts. Life as a candidate sucks that way.
his answer to the deportation question flew a little under the radar
ramos: account for all the deportations under obama
biden: i will be dodging this question, thanks
ramos: no you won't. answer it
biden: "i am the vice-president of the united states"
that's an actual quote, like i think those were his exact words
Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said at the end there. As if saying he was the Vice-President was the only answer he needed to give.
I mean, it kinda is. It's wasn't his show. And he can't have it both ways on the good parts of that but neither can we have it both ways on the bad.
The burden is on him to engage with those questions in good faith if he wants to claim the good parts. If he won't even engage, then IMO it's fair to put the bad parts on him and not give him credit for the good parts. Life as a candidate sucks that way.
Or, to be even more fair, how about you just put the good parts on him that he was responsible for and not the bad parts he wasn’t actually responsible for instead of coming up with arbitrary ultimatums to trap him into a corner???
Biden is in no way responsible for ALL the bullshit of the Obama administration, you can blame Obama for that.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
But if Biden wants to claim that he had such great influence with the President over healthcare and cancer and other things and he was so very influential and he was a big help with Obama and helping make decisions and he was so close with Obama and he knows what goes on in that office and he's the best man for the job due to his experience in the Oval Office making those decisions...
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
Also, this is the time period where we're putting our candidates through the wringer to figure out which one can take the heat. "Only ask fair questions" is not higher on my list of priorities than "force the candidates to grapple with difficult challenges".
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Or Joe could say, “We prioritized deporting violent criminals and people caught right after crossing the border, and even then I regret that so many were carried out. Our immigration system has been broken for decades and here’s what we’re going to do to fix it.”
But he won’t remotely criticize Obama and he doesn’t actually seem to care about deportations, so he can’t just say this is a tough issue and I want to help us do better with it, he has to dance around the issue and pretend he had zero influence on it despite the apparently incredible influence he says he had on all the other areas of the administration.
But if Biden wants to claim that he had such great influence with the President over healthcare and cancer and other things and he was so very influential and he was a big help with Obama and helping make decisions and he was so close with Obama and he knows what goes on in that office and he's the best man for the job due to his experience in the Oval Office making those decisions...
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
Because maybe he FAILED. Is that what you want to hear? That he tried his hardest, but in the end Obama said “Shut the fuck up Joe” right before taking a long drag on his cigarette and flicking it aside onto the White House lawn?
The Vice President is influential and I have no doubt Biden did a lot, but the President is President.
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
But if Biden wants to claim that he had such great influence with the President over healthcare and cancer and other things and he was so very influential and he was a big help with Obama and helping make decisions and he was so close with Obama and he knows what goes on in that office and he's the best man for the job due to his experience in the Oval Office making those decisions...
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
Because maybe he FAILED. Is that what you want to hear? That he tried his hardest, but in the end Obama said “Shut the fuck up Joe” right before taking a long drag on his cigarette and flicking it aside onto the White House lawn?
The Vice President is influential and I have no doubt Biden did a lot, but the President is President.
"Joe Biden tried and failed to save us from Obama" sure is a take.
+31
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
But if Biden wants to claim that he had such great influence with the President over healthcare and cancer and other things and he was so very influential and he was a big help with Obama and helping make decisions and he was so close with Obama and he knows what goes on in that office and he's the best man for the job due to his experience in the Oval Office making those decisions...
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
Because maybe he FAILED. Is that what you want to hear? That he tried his hardest, but in the end Obama said “Shut the fuck up Joe” right before taking a long drag on his cigarette and flicking it aside onto the White House lawn?
The Vice President is influential and I have no doubt Biden did a lot, but the President is President.
Yup.
I want to hear that he tried. That he thought it was important to speak up and say something, but in the end he was overruled.
So yes, that is what I want to hear. What's wrong with admitting that he's a human and capable of not being perfect
But if Biden wants to claim that he had such great influence with the President over healthcare and cancer and other things and he was so very influential and he was a big help with Obama and helping make decisions and he was so close with Obama and he knows what goes on in that office and he's the best man for the job due to his experience in the Oval Office making those decisions...
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
Because maybe he FAILED. Is that what you want to hear? That he tried his hardest, but in the end Obama said “Shut the fuck up Joe” right before taking a long drag on his cigarette and flicking it aside onto the White House lawn?
The Vice President is influential and I have no doubt Biden did a lot, but the President is President.
Then you know he could just point out that he and Obama didn't agree on everything. Not hard.
Yeah, here's the thing: Either he tried and failed, or he supported it whole-heartedly, or he just didn't give a shit enough to pay attention either way.
None of those are a great look, and he's going to have to own one of them eventually.
But if Biden wants to claim that he had such great influence with the President over healthcare and cancer and other things and he was so very influential and he was a big help with Obama and helping make decisions and he was so close with Obama and he knows what goes on in that office and he's the best man for the job due to his experience in the Oval Office making those decisions...
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
Because maybe he FAILED. Is that what you want to hear? That he tried his hardest, but in the end Obama said “Shut the fuck up Joe” right before taking a long drag on his cigarette and flicking it aside onto the White House lawn?
The Vice President is influential and I have no doubt Biden did a lot, but the President is President.
Yup.
I want to hear that he tried. That he thought it was important to speak up and say something, but in the end he was overruled.
So yes, that is what I want to hear. What's wrong with admitting that he's a human and capable of not being perfect
It may be what you want to hear, but I hope you could appreciate how difficult it would be to navigate a statement like that publicly and in a limited format. Candidates do not admit to failures.
Biden's options on that question are limited; he can say that he supported the obama policy (a bad look in the current environment), or that he wasn't involved and/or didn't really care (makes him look impotent at best.) So he avoids the question.
He could also be honest and say that they found an outright open border unacceptable and focused on controlling who was allowed in rather than on just deporting undocumented people wholesale; that however requires a bunch of messy explanation and any politican who's reached his level knows better than to engage in that, especially on the debate stage.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Biden's options on that question are limited; he can say that he supported the obama policy (a bad look in the current environment), or that he wasn't involved and/or didn't really care (makes him look impotent at best.) So he avoids the question.
He could also be honest and say that they found an outright open border unacceptable and focused on controlling who was allowed in rather than on just deporting undocumented people wholesale; that however requires a bunch of messy explanation and any politican who's reached his level knows better than to engage in that, especially on the debate stage.
"We enforced the laws as written. Tried to fix it but the GOP just wants to make it worse, as Trump's actions show." Done.
Biden's options on that question are limited; he can say that he supported the obama policy (a bad look in the current environment), or that he wasn't involved and/or didn't really care (makes him look impotent at best.) So he avoids the question.
He could also be honest and say that they found an outright open border unacceptable and focused on controlling who was allowed in rather than on just deporting undocumented people wholesale; that however requires a bunch of messy explanation and any politican who's reached his level knows better than to engage in that, especially on the debate stage.
Having to avoid speaking to an issue because of how bad you were on it is disqualifying to me
Joe, like any other person running for office, could and should just say, “I was wrong and I’m sorry”
But I don’t believe he thinks he was wrong, so he can’t be the guy
I'd like to see a politician say "I was wrong" about a time they screwed up. It's an indictment of our society that admitting fault is some kind of black sin.
Yeah sorry if you're running to be president based on your association with the former popular president you have to own up his shitty policies too. You don't get to scream obama at everything and then go "I was just the veep" on the bad stuff.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
any time a politician avoids a question like that it's a clue that they think their actual position is a political liability; the challenge is to figure out what their actual position is
like, Biden probably believes (with a certain amount of justice) that the obama policy was good; we probably should be deporting criminals, and we probably should be securing the border to at least some extent (i.e. remove people who have been here a very short time.) It's awkward to say because of Trump's rhetoric but we should be concerned about contraband/drugs and violent people coming over the border, considering the state of law enforcement in mexico.
but he also clearly thinks (again, probably correctly) that he can't say those things on the debate stage, because 1) somebody would have a side by side of him and Trump ready to go in 20 minutes and 2) he seems to legitimately lack the conversational agility necessary to split those hairs
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Biden's built his whole campaign on being a third Obama term. He can't openly criticize Obama's policies—especially where people see them as similar to Trump's—without hurting his core argument.
And he probably doesn't know enough details about Obama vs. Trump's immigration policies to get granular about it in any case.
I'd like to see a politician say "I was wrong" about a time they screwed up. It's an indictment of our society that admitting fault is some kind of black sin.
A willingness to admit fault is something I'm rapidly prioritizing over anything else in both my candidates and people I include in my daily life.
People here seem to think it’s ok to take a risk this election because there’s a shitty president in office.
But don’t forget, for some people opting out of voting and enduring Trump for another 4 years is a perfectly valid option if it means they can vote for a better Democrat in 4 years, as opposed to helping someone they don’t like much get elected into office and then having to wait 8 years for them to get out before a new Democrat is available. Personally I feel that is the route I would take if the candidate ended up being someone I couldn’t stand, like Yang for instance.
I disagree, I think most want a "risky" candidate who excites them because they believe (correctly IMO) that this election will be decided by the GOTV effort. Everyone already has an opinion on whether they love or hate Trump, with very few who are ambivalent, and you aren't going to get the people who are already thinking of voting for him again by presenting a nonthreatening alternative (in fact, one could make an argument that is the last sort of candidate who would make such a voter switch parties)
So it's about exciting the base to come out and vote. And a Biden run isn't going to excite people who want to see the progressive party in America commit to actually doing something, well, progressive, and not what sounds like as just return to what it was like before Trump.
More than that, I'd argue do you want to get Americans exited? You want to get them out there? You want to make them stand up and vote?
Don't play it safe. Sell em on the big dream, the big goal, the big adventure.
"We promise to go the Moon in this decade" is famous for a reason.
As an American, I want to do something big, something monumental. Don't bore me with petty ass plans for an incremental improvement to highway repair funds. Tell me we are going to repair all the highways, bridges and infrastructure in America by 2025. Tell me we are building a solar station in Death Valley big enough to power five states during the day.
Tell we are getting a fricking moon base.
Don't bore me with normality. Tell me where you want to go, and if I hear the words "back to" I am so outta here.
This is the crux of it, in my opinion. This is why the Wall is so important -- even though it was a terrible idea, it was an enormous dream. It inspired a sense of ambition and grandeur in the people who didn't immediately hate it. The only time I've seen a glimmer of something relatable in a Trump supporter's rhetoric was when I talked to my old boss in my hometown in mid-2016. We talked about the Wall. He said he wasn't sure whether the Wall was, itself, a good idea. But he was drawn to the kind of candidate who would propose something so huge. He was tired of inside baseball, incremental changes, and reactive policy. He wanted a candidate who would build something unprecedented.
I think that's an absolutely shit reason for supporting Trump, of course, and I basically told him as much. But I understand the feeling. It's why, as far as I'm concerned, Joe Biden can go piss into the wind. I'm more interested in Yang than I am in Biden, and I think Yang is trash. As a species, as a society, as a country, we can be breathtaking. I'm tired of candidates who won't seize on that potential and harness it to monumental ends.
Our trust in that potential is kind of low right now. What can you say to a voter who follows up these promises with "...but congress refused to change."?
I'm not sure I understand the question/its relevance. Are you asking me whether I approve of congress?
Nope, just trying to get in the headspace of the plurality of unreliable voters
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Biden's options on that question are limited; he can say that he supported the obama policy (a bad look in the current environment), or that he wasn't involved and/or didn't really care (makes him look impotent at best.) So he avoids the question.
He could also be honest and say that they found an outright open border unacceptable and focused on controlling who was allowed in rather than on just deporting undocumented people wholesale; that however requires a bunch of messy explanation and any politican who's reached his level knows better than to engage in that, especially on the debate stage.
I mean, the honest answer I think is actually more that they tried to aggressively position themselves as not being against border control in order to try and win over Republican votes in Congress for actual immigration reform legislation. Which is probably just not gonna play well.
On automation, I do believe Warren has touched on that issue. Pretty sure one or two of the others have also acknowledges that there is a very legitimate concern with it and that it is currently causing harm. Problem is the GOP's obstinance and complete contempt towards anything to gets in the way of rich assholes making money, has allowed bigger issues to fester. I'm not going to pretend automation is something we can tackle quickly, but it's not like automation will create a scenario where it's game over. Climate change is one of things, where even if I doubt it'll end our species, it'll certainly create plenty of scenarios where we won't be able to solve the issue anytime soon. Also automation tends to be one of those things that needs to be addressed with other economic issues because truthfully, there are some really shitty jobs that I'm A-OK with being automated out of existence, just as long as the people currently working it can maintain their livelihood without those jobs.
As for Biden. Not only does he have to pick side in regards to Obama. Either he was all in on every major decision Obama made or he wasn't. So either he has to take flak for the failing of Obama's administration or he has to take flak for not doing enough to push back against those and admit that he wasn't a huge factor in every decision made. Plus, he really needs to sell what he intends to do. I loath people that campaign on "I'll be another term or more of X," no they won't, they can't because they are a different individual and thus will have a different take on how they make decisions. I feel Biden's "I'll be a third term of Obama," stance is highly disingenuous.
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ramos: account for all the deportations under obama
biden: i will be dodging this question, thanks
ramos: no you won't. answer it
biden: "i am the vice-president of the united states"
that's an actual quote, like i think those were his exact words
This is the crux of it, in my opinion. This is why the Wall is so important -- even though it was a terrible idea, it was an enormous dream. It inspired a sense of ambition and grandeur in the people who didn't immediately hate it. The only time I've seen a glimmer of something relatable in a Trump supporter's rhetoric was when I talked to my old boss in my hometown in mid-2016. We talked about the Wall. He said he wasn't sure whether the Wall was, itself, a good idea. But he was drawn to the kind of candidate who would propose something so huge. He was tired of inside baseball, incremental changes, and reactive policy. He wanted a candidate who would build something unprecedented.
I think that's an absolutely shit reason for supporting Trump, of course, and I basically told him as much. But I understand the feeling. It's why, as far as I'm concerned, Joe Biden can go piss into the wind. I'm more interested in Yang than I am in Biden, and I think Yang is trash. As a species, as a society, as a country, we can be breathtaking. I'm tired of candidates who won't seize on that potential and harness it to monumental ends.
Not mine
Our trust in that potential is kind of low right now. What can you say to a voter who follows up these promises with "...but congress refused to change."?
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'm not sure I understand the question/its relevance. Are you asking me whether I approve of congress?
Yup, that's EXACTLY what he said at the end there. As if saying he was the Vice-President was the only answer he needed to give.
I mean, it kinda is. It's wasn't his show. And he can't have it both ways on the good parts of that but neither can we have it both ways on the bad.
The burden is on him to engage with those questions in good faith if he wants to claim the good parts. If he won't even engage, then IMO it's fair to put the bad parts on him and not give him credit for the good parts. Life as a candidate sucks that way.
Or, to be even more fair, how about you just put the good parts on him that he was responsible for and not the bad parts he wasn’t actually responsible for instead of coming up with arbitrary ultimatums to trap him into a corner???
Biden is in no way responsible for ALL the bullshit of the Obama administration, you can blame Obama for that.
Then why didn't he use that same influence to stop deportations? If he had that much power and that much influence and was deeply involved in every decision than why was he not involved in that one? Or was he and he didn't speak up for reasons? Or was he involved but he didn't care about deportations? Or was he actually ok with deporting all those other people.
Either he had the influence and has the experience in the oval and he helped craft decisions, or he was 'Just the *Vice* President' and really wasn't much more than a beating heart.
He's trying to hug Obama for the good stuff and be distant for the bad stuff.
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But he won’t remotely criticize Obama and he doesn’t actually seem to care about deportations, so he can’t just say this is a tough issue and I want to help us do better with it, he has to dance around the issue and pretend he had zero influence on it despite the apparently incredible influence he says he had on all the other areas of the administration.
Because maybe he FAILED. Is that what you want to hear? That he tried his hardest, but in the end Obama said “Shut the fuck up Joe” right before taking a long drag on his cigarette and flicking it aside onto the White House lawn?
The Vice President is influential and I have no doubt Biden did a lot, but the President is President.
"Joe Biden tried and failed to save us from Obama" sure is a take.
Yup.
I want to hear that he tried. That he thought it was important to speak up and say something, but in the end he was overruled.
So yes, that is what I want to hear. What's wrong with admitting that he's a human and capable of not being perfect
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Then you know he could just point out that he and Obama didn't agree on everything. Not hard.
None of those are a great look, and he's going to have to own one of them eventually.
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It may be what you want to hear, but I hope you could appreciate how difficult it would be to navigate a statement like that publicly and in a limited format. Candidates do not admit to failures.
But then you get to explain all the bad things that happened under that administration too
You do not get to take credit for all the good things that happened and simultaneously have all the bad be Not Your Fault
Leadership, real leadership, accepts responsibility for the failure of the team
He's had 3 years to think about this campaign. If he hasn't come up with a way to answer that most obvious question, then he's not paying attention.
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He was asked about the deportations at the debate prior to this one FFS
Not having an answer by now, even a bad one that will play well to people looking to give him an excuse, is pathetic
He could also be honest and say that they found an outright open border unacceptable and focused on controlling who was allowed in rather than on just deporting undocumented people wholesale; that however requires a bunch of messy explanation and any politican who's reached his level knows better than to engage in that, especially on the debate stage.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
"We enforced the laws as written. Tried to fix it but the GOP just wants to make it worse, as Trump's actions show." Done.
but he can't actually say that because julian castro would unhinge his weirdly shaped jaw and swallow him whole
Having to avoid speaking to an issue because of how bad you were on it is disqualifying to me
Joe, like any other person running for office, could and should just say, “I was wrong and I’m sorry”
But I don’t believe he thinks he was wrong, so he can’t be the guy
And he's one of the last to start his run this year.
If you can't even admit that in a public debate, then why are you there?
but replying with belligerence and the attitude of 'how dare you challenge me' is not useful at all.
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pleasepaypreacher.net
like, Biden probably believes (with a certain amount of justice) that the obama policy was good; we probably should be deporting criminals, and we probably should be securing the border to at least some extent (i.e. remove people who have been here a very short time.) It's awkward to say because of Trump's rhetoric but we should be concerned about contraband/drugs and violent people coming over the border, considering the state of law enforcement in mexico.
but he also clearly thinks (again, probably correctly) that he can't say those things on the debate stage, because 1) somebody would have a side by side of him and Trump ready to go in 20 minutes and 2) he seems to legitimately lack the conversational agility necessary to split those hairs
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
And he probably doesn't know enough details about Obama vs. Trump's immigration policies to get granular about it in any case.
I feel the money and power of the Democrats talked him into it seeing what they got and how the party was steering hard to the left bothers them
A willingness to admit fault is something I'm rapidly prioritizing over anything else in both my candidates and people I include in my daily life.
Nope, just trying to get in the headspace of the plurality of unreliable voters
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Rahm is a tool for the establishment before he's an asshole.
Trying to cover up a murder makes you both.
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I mean, the honest answer I think is actually more that they tried to aggressively position themselves as not being against border control in order to try and win over Republican votes in Congress for actual immigration reform legislation. Which is probably just not gonna play well.
As for Biden. Not only does he have to pick side in regards to Obama. Either he was all in on every major decision Obama made or he wasn't. So either he has to take flak for the failing of Obama's administration or he has to take flak for not doing enough to push back against those and admit that he wasn't a huge factor in every decision made. Plus, he really needs to sell what he intends to do. I loath people that campaign on "I'll be another term or more of X," no they won't, they can't because they are a different individual and thus will have a different take on how they make decisions. I feel Biden's "I'll be a third term of Obama," stance is highly disingenuous.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
Oh he's absolutely both, I'm just saying his priority is more the former.