Overwatch: Overwatch 2 Announced!

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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I've never found Mei's CC that frustrating TBH. It just forces you to keep your distance and think more carefully about diving which is her job. It's more frustrating that it's impossible to kill her, but I think she's balanced as she is and would need a rework to significantly change anything about that.

    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    I've never found Mei's CC that frustrating TBH. It just forces you to keep your distance and think more carefully about diving which is her job. It's more frustrating that it's impossible to kill her, but I think she's balanced as she is and would need a rework to significantly change anything about that.

    Agreed. Most any other DPS is far, far more dangerous than Mei - balanced by her survivability and all her utility. Take away any degree of her utility and you'd either need to give her yet more survivability or bring her damage output in line with other utility DPS like Torb and Sym.

    That is to say, increase her DPS. Which she definitely doesn't need.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    DevoutlyApathetic
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    There's also another solution to Mei...THE PYRO. She gently roasts her own team alive (both figuratively and literally) to keep them from being frozen.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    There's also another solution to Mei...THE PYRO. She gently roasts her own team alive (both figuratively and literally) to keep them from being frozen.

    It's kind of bonkers that with how few support there are, we only have one soft cleanse in Zarya.

    PailryderFencingsax
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited February 12
    I have never considered Zarya to be a Mei counter, but Brutal basically asserted that she was, and when I started paying attention to it... yeh. It's super hard to freeze a zarya or anyone near her unless you are actively trying to pay attention to when she's used her bubbles and only attack at her moments of weakness.

    This is the kind of stuff I never even thought about before...

    This being said I'm unlikely to play any OW for a while because the new Satisfactory patch is in their PTR and I'm way too busy building a giant petroleum pipeline network that will likely cease to exist in a few weeks anyway...

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Zarya & Orisa: Fuck You, Mei.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Pailryder
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I have trouble with punishing Mei with Orisa but Zarya treats her as a teeny tiny mouse is treated by big burly cat.

  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    pbuxhgwrlr62.jpg
    dgdbchwrwuxh.jpg

    Fuckin' awesome.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Pailryder
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    ArcTangent on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Saunders #1 Registered User regular
    I appreciate the console only changes for us non scumbag KBAM people.

    Symmetra really needed it (so does Torb, or at least make the turret turning to attack be slower because the animation doesn't even catch up with it if it goes 180 behind it), but I don't think Ana needed the buff. She essentially now always has two fatties to shoot at and try and heal and build ult, it you can't those sides of a barn you shouldn't be playing her.

    Chance
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I just played 2 games where the enemy Tracer didn't die at all, while I was tank.

    torchlight-sig-80.jpg
    Chance
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I appreciate the console only changes for us non scumbag KBAM people.

    Symmetra really needed it (so does Torb, or at least make the turret turning to attack be slower because the animation doesn't even catch up with it if it goes 180 behind it), but I don't think Ana needed the buff. She essentially now always has two fatties to shoot at and try and heal and build ult, it you can't those sides of a barn you shouldn't be playing her.

    I disagree, the buff helps a lot.

    And it isn't for tanks. It's more for hitting skinny and incredibly mobile targets like Tracer, Genji and Pharah.

    The improvement is actually very noticeable.

    Dragkonias on
    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Does it only affect her when noscoped? It says "projectile," and Ana's shot becomes hitscan when scoped in, yeah?

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    edited February 13
    Chance wrote: »
    Does it only affect her when noscoped? It says "projectile," and Ana's shot becomes hitscan when scoped in, yeah?

    I would assume it means both. They do say projectile but it's not uncommon for the dev team to also just use that to mean bullet/munition (as opposed to like, beam weapon or explosion)

    Houk the Namebringer on
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    its also entirely possible in order not to have to deal with defining 2 attack types for her the "hitscan" attack is just the same projectile being shot at a jillion mph so they dont have to fuck about

    obF2Wuw.png
    BloodySlothFencingsax
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    I honestly love playin' Ana on PS4, so I like this.

    I just wish I was as survivable as all the Anas I try to gank on Tracer. Stupid tiny hitbox.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    Does it only affect her when noscoped? It says "projectile," and Ana's shot becomes hitscan when scoped in, yeah?

    I tested it in the training room, its both.

    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Does it only affect her when noscoped? It says "projectile," and Ana's shot becomes hitscan when scoped in, yeah?

    I tested it in the training room, its both.

    Wewt!

    Oh that reminds me - I tested that ice-wall-breaks-trap thing. It totally works 100% of the time.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I decided to make a point of changing up the characters I play for a while, and Symmetra is one that I just never ever played for some reason so I'm spending some time on her. The fully charged mega death beam is crazy, and I hadn't realized her alt fire did so much damage even before the buff. I'm still trying to figure out specifically when she's a good pick though. I guess when the enemy has a lot of shields, but not so much range that they can shut her down.

  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    I decided to make a point of changing up the characters I play for a while, and Symmetra is one that I just never ever played for some reason so I'm spending some time on her. The fully charged mega death beam is crazy, and I hadn't realized her alt fire did so much damage even before the buff. I'm still trying to figure out specifically when she's a good pick though. I guess when the enemy has a lot of shields, but not so much range that they can shut her down.

    She's a little anti-dive, I'd say, even if Winston is still a good overall answer to her. Pharah's her best counter, I'd say, and she's excellent Vs. Genji, Tracer, D.Va and Sigma at the very least.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    .
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

    That's vacuously true for every DPS. Rein doesn't win a 1v1 with any of them. He loses most badly and can at best stalemate by holding up his shield in their general direction. He is meant to be a threat to get close to. If you're in hammer range as a DPS, you should be in trouble. But for Mei (and Reaper), they can just walk straight through not just your barrier, but your entire body, effectively dancing in and out of your attacks by phasing through your physical form, all the while killing and/or disabling you. So yes, it's super duper unfun to put it at the absolute mildest.

  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    I decided to make a point of changing up the characters I play for a while, and Symmetra is one that I just never ever played for some reason so I'm spending some time on her. The fully charged mega death beam is crazy, and I hadn't realized her alt fire did so much damage even before the buff. I'm still trying to figure out specifically when she's a good pick though. I guess when the enemy has a lot of shields, but not so much range that they can shut her down.

    She's a little anti-dive, I'd say, even if Winston is still a good overall answer to her. Pharah's her best counter, I'd say, and she's excellent Vs. Genji, Tracer, D.Va and Sigma at the very least.

    She's also very map-dependent. She's especially good on koth maps with close-quarters or enclosed areas, where the enemy team has to get close to cap the point, or generally any map/section with a lot of angles and corners to hide behind. Open areas and long sightlines are not her friend.

    Chance
  • SirToastySirToasty Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Zek wrote: »
    I decided to make a point of changing up the characters I play for a while, and Symmetra is one that I just never ever played for some reason so I'm spending some time on her. The fully charged mega death beam is crazy, and I hadn't realized her alt fire did so much damage even before the buff. I'm still trying to figure out specifically when she's a good pick though. I guess when the enemy has a lot of shields, but not so much range that they can shut her down.

    Tight control maps such as Nepal Village/Temple, Oasis University/Gardens, any Rein shaped choke (King's Row and Eichenwalde arches for example). Anywhere you can thread a right click through a heavily trafficked area is good too. On Hanamura A there is a defensive angle that can fire balls through choke and out to the pillar under the bridge they pass from spawn. Stand at the corner of the building just in front of the rock. You only need a pixel too so you can stay relatively safe while launching them.

    Tele is great for defensive rotations on some maps. I like to put one on Hanamura B from top left high ground to top right. You can spam into the top doorway if they try to take cover in the hall before going up stairs and cover windows as well. And if they dive you, just dip out to your team on the other side. On offense sometimes you can get away with putting one on the awning above point and laser people from above.

    SirToasty on
  • miscellaneousinsanitymiscellaneousinsanity grass grows, birds fly, sun shines, and brother, i hurt peopleRegistered User regular
    her teleporter is also handy on koth maps cos it can pretty much be up the entire round as a shortcut back to the point

    SirToastyFencingsaxKanaChance
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    .
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

    That's vacuously true for every DPS. Rein doesn't win a 1v1 with any of them. He loses most badly and can at best stalemate by holding up his shield in their general direction. He is meant to be a threat to get close to. If you're in hammer range as a DPS, you should be in trouble. But for Mei (and Reaper), they can just walk straight through not just your barrier, but your entire body, effectively dancing in and out of your attacks by phasing through your physical form, all the while killing and/or disabling you. So yes, it's super duper unfun to put it at the absolute mildest.

    Rein really shouldn't be fighting anybody 1v1, there are hardly any good reasons for him to be in that situation unless he's the last survivor fighting over a point. It takes Mei a really long time to win a fight against Rein. If his team is with him, there's no way Mei can just walk through his shield and freeze him, let alone kill him.

    DevoutlyApatheticChance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    I know Sym's teleporter can be used for Big Brain Plays (Hanamura choke, D.Va bombs), but in my games I find we just win when she sets it up as a little time-saver just outside of spawn.

    That's it. Cut 7 seconds off your entire team's respawn timer, every time they respawn. It's massive.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    FencingsaxPailryder
  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Chance wrote: »
    I know Sym's teleporter can be used for Big Brain Plays (Hanamura choke, D.Va bombs), but in my games I find we just win when she sets it up as a little time-saver just outside of spawn.

    That's it. Cut 7 seconds off your entire team's respawn timer, every time they respawn. It's massive.

    Yeah that's definitely a safe bet if you aren't confident in your team's ability to do a coordinated tele push. Probably on defense that's the best thing you can do with it in pub games. In CP offense though, pushing past chokepoints is really hard for pub teams, so I think there's almost always something you can do with it to safely bypass the primary danger zone.

    Zek on
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    Zek wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    .
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

    That's vacuously true for every DPS. Rein doesn't win a 1v1 with any of them. He loses most badly and can at best stalemate by holding up his shield in their general direction. He is meant to be a threat to get close to. If you're in hammer range as a DPS, you should be in trouble. But for Mei (and Reaper), they can just walk straight through not just your barrier, but your entire body, effectively dancing in and out of your attacks by phasing through your physical form, all the while killing and/or disabling you. So yes, it's super duper unfun to put it at the absolute mildest.

    Rein really shouldn't be fighting anybody 1v1, there are hardly any good reasons for him to be in that situation unless he's the last survivor fighting over a point. It takes Mei a really long time to win a fight against Rein. If his team is with him, there's no way Mei can just walk through his shield and freeze him, let alone kill him.

    I said that he loses them badly. If you took that as me saying that he should be fighting people 1v1, you've significantly misunderstood me. I'm saying that his way of mitigating those characters is mechanically fucked up and doesn't work. He can't point his shield at them because they can just walk through it and his entire body with virtually no loss to their efficacy. He can't swing his hammer at them because they can just walk through his body, are doing quintuple his damage with easy (automatic in Reaper's case) recovery and/or disabling him in the process. It's not about being able to win a fight against them. It's about Rein's best approach to being jumped on by one of them being to turn tail and run, in Reaper's case because he's just a great big health and ult battery, and in Mei's case to give other people a clear shot instead of body blocking the sight lines.

  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I'm still pissed off about Sym's teleporter nerf. I miss Classic Sym soooo much.

    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    .
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

    That's vacuously true for every DPS. Rein doesn't win a 1v1 with any of them. He loses most badly and can at best stalemate by holding up his shield in their general direction. He is meant to be a threat to get close to. If you're in hammer range as a DPS, you should be in trouble. But for Mei (and Reaper), they can just walk straight through not just your barrier, but your entire body, effectively dancing in and out of your attacks by phasing through your physical form, all the while killing and/or disabling you. So yes, it's super duper unfun to put it at the absolute mildest.

    Rein really shouldn't be fighting anybody 1v1, there are hardly any good reasons for him to be in that situation unless he's the last survivor fighting over a point. It takes Mei a really long time to win a fight against Rein. If his team is with him, there's no way Mei can just walk through his shield and freeze him, let alone kill him.

    I said that he loses them badly. If you took that as me saying that he should be fighting people 1v1, you've significantly misunderstood me. I'm saying that his way of mitigating those characters is mechanically fucked up and doesn't work. He can't point his shield at them because they can just walk through it and his entire body with virtually no loss to their efficacy. He can't swing his hammer at them because they can just walk through his body, are doing quintuple his damage with easy (automatic in Reaper's case) recovery and/or disabling him in the process. It's not about being able to win a fight against them. It's about Rein's best approach to being jumped on by one of them being to turn tail and run, in Reaper's case because he's just a great big health and ult battery, and in Mei's case to give other people a clear shot instead of body blocking the sight lines.

    i still don't know what you mean about them being able to walk through his body. enemy characters all have collision with each other, and i don't know that i've ever heard of anyone else mention phasing through characters (not counting actual phase abilities, obvs). i don't have like a super detailed resource for rein's swing hitbox and all that, but if mei is on screen and in range when you swing you will hit her, and if you don't the game isn't working as intended.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    Chance wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Does it only affect her when noscoped? It says "projectile," and Ana's shot becomes hitscan when scoped in, yeah?

    I tested it in the training room, its both.

    Wewt!

    Oh that reminds me - I tested that ice-wall-breaks-trap thing. It totally works 100% of the time.

    good man for testing, i was wrong

    obF2Wuw.png
    ChancePailryder
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited February 13
    Yeh I haven't been able to reproduce that issue for a few weeks now... I think either it was either latency or just a bug they silently fixed. Still curious if that break-out is intentional or not.

    One of my recent gameplay adjustments has been to value Wall higher and attempting to avoid wasting the cooldown needlessly. So I am cryoing in traps a lot more these days rather than breaking out with wall (or if I know where the junk is, I'll just wait it out).

    ...Unless it is some kind of emergency, like my healers are getting attacked or something, and I need out right away... I'll spend a wall for that.

    And I certainly don't do the jump-in-just-to-break-out move anymore, spending a wall AND a chunk of health was a bad trade when I can kill a trap with two or three icicles instead.

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    .
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

    That's vacuously true for every DPS. Rein doesn't win a 1v1 with any of them. He loses most badly and can at best stalemate by holding up his shield in their general direction. He is meant to be a threat to get close to. If you're in hammer range as a DPS, you should be in trouble. But for Mei (and Reaper), they can just walk straight through not just your barrier, but your entire body, effectively dancing in and out of your attacks by phasing through your physical form, all the while killing and/or disabling you. So yes, it's super duper unfun to put it at the absolute mildest.

    Rein really shouldn't be fighting anybody 1v1, there are hardly any good reasons for him to be in that situation unless he's the last survivor fighting over a point. It takes Mei a really long time to win a fight against Rein. If his team is with him, there's no way Mei can just walk through his shield and freeze him, let alone kill him.

    I said that he loses them badly. If you took that as me saying that he should be fighting people 1v1, you've significantly misunderstood me. I'm saying that his way of mitigating those characters is mechanically fucked up and doesn't work. He can't point his shield at them because they can just walk through it and his entire body with virtually no loss to their efficacy. He can't swing his hammer at them because they can just walk through his body, are doing quintuple his damage with easy (automatic in Reaper's case) recovery and/or disabling him in the process. It's not about being able to win a fight against them. It's about Rein's best approach to being jumped on by one of them being to turn tail and run, in Reaper's case because he's just a great big health and ult battery, and in Mei's case to give other people a clear shot instead of body blocking the sight lines.

    i still don't know what you mean about them being able to walk through his body. enemy characters all have collision with each other, and i don't know that i've ever heard of anyone else mention phasing through characters (not counting actual phase abilities, obvs). i don't have like a super detailed resource for rein's swing hitbox and all that, but if mei is on screen and in range when you swing you will hit her, and if you don't the game isn't working as intended.

    Here's a montage from 2016, before she got the big buff to make her freeze even stickier.



    Particularly at about 50 seconds in she prances straight up and through Rein's FOV to parts unknown, and the clip right before that has a bit too to confirm the kill. I'm sure I could record a couple clips the next time I play Rein, but I haven't played in like a week so you'll probably be waiting a while, especially if their vaunted more frequent and more aggressive updates are these tiny tweaks every couple weeks.

    Also, side note, christ, it hurts to see how bad and buggy charge used to be, especially as it still is buggy as fuck even after the supposed big fix.

  • Canis_AnubisCanis_Anubis Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    I don't think one can make a very cogent argument that any of Mei's tools are particularly overpowered or strong. She's among the lowest pick-rate Heroes at skill ranks where players aren't just morons or smurfs, and her win rates even when she is picked are decidedly middling. She's not a tank, she's pretty mediocre as DPS, and she's definitely not a healer.

    If I were doing her rework, I'd remove the delay on the launch of her secondary fire, which more or less removes any kind of skill component from landing shots outside short range, and maybe speed up the projectile speed a little bit. I don't think I'd change her primary fire, wall, or ultimate at all, except maybe to keep D.va from eating it, or Genji from deflecting it. It's not a projectile, it's a little robot, how does Genji reprogram it with a whack of his blade? Her Cryo-Freeze I might speed up the healing rate, and make the ice block destructible, so there's some counterplay when she's trying to stall the point. That will both get her back in fights faster, for when there's a teamfight, so she can do more than just die last, and also remove some of her stall shenanigans.

    That's less a rework and more just straight up providing massive buffs to almost every aspect of her kit.

    Well, it's what would make her a non-situational pick, as opposed to just cheesing her ability to make chokepoints into traps and stalling points. As for pros complaining about getting all frozen at once, I don't know, maybe SPREAD OUT.
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Mei doesn't do much raw damage because if she's being effective, then she completely turns off a tank's ability to mitigate damage, and a tank that can't mitigate damage is dead. And her poking icicles one-shot squishies with a headshot. So, yeah, she'll do less raw damage than 76, or McCree, or a spammy Junkrat, or whatever, but the damage she does is waaaaaaaaaay the fuck more dangerous and is massively harder to deal with/recover from.

    No she doesn't, and no they don't. She's got barely any range with her primary fire, and it doesn't penetrate shields, and she's got no mobility, so if she's able to waddle up to your tank and freeze him, it's because your teams DPS is shit. And her secondary fire does the same damage as McCree's hitscan, only it's a projectile with a delay, so outside close range you're basically spamming in the vague direction of the enemy ball and hoping some squishy will Mister President their face into your icicle. The stats don't lie. Mei is a mediocre, highly situational pick. She's far from meta, and her real strength is letting smurfs curbstomp their way through Bronze, where everyone runs in headlong into one on one footsie duels, in which Mei excels.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Zek wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    .
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    Well Orisa's less "I kinda' counter you" than "you aren't the end of the world for me."

    Mei is kind of the end of the world for Sigma, ball, Hog and D.Va. Less so Rein, I guess.

    She's pretty much the end of the world for Rein too, because you get you play that oh-so-fun game of spin helplessly, trying to delay the freeze as long as possible but it doesn't matter because she only needs a single tick every 1.5 seconds to fuck you over completely and can just walk through your shield and literally inside your body.

    Like Reaper, but takes three times as long, so you get to be six times as annoyed and frustrated by it.

    I mean, if you're having to 1v1 Mei as a Rein you and your team have bigger problems. A Reaper is scary because he can get in, deal big damage and heal up at the same time, then wraith away as soon as he's in danger. If a Mei is close enough to Rein to freeze him, she has zero escape options and the rest of Rein's team should be close enough to help him out before she has time to actually kill him. Obviously that doesn't always happen, but that's the fault of a disorganized team, not an all-powerful team killer.

    Of course, this is from the perspective of whether or not she's OP and not whether or not she's just super duper unfun and frustrating to play against. I realize I'm in the minority of not actually minding her that much, but I do see why it bugs people so much.

    That's vacuously true for every DPS. Rein doesn't win a 1v1 with any of them. He loses most badly and can at best stalemate by holding up his shield in their general direction. He is meant to be a threat to get close to. If you're in hammer range as a DPS, you should be in trouble. But for Mei (and Reaper), they can just walk straight through not just your barrier, but your entire body, effectively dancing in and out of your attacks by phasing through your physical form, all the while killing and/or disabling you. So yes, it's super duper unfun to put it at the absolute mildest.

    Rein really shouldn't be fighting anybody 1v1, there are hardly any good reasons for him to be in that situation unless he's the last survivor fighting over a point. It takes Mei a really long time to win a fight against Rein. If his team is with him, there's no way Mei can just walk through his shield and freeze him, let alone kill him.

    I said that he loses them badly. If you took that as me saying that he should be fighting people 1v1, you've significantly misunderstood me. I'm saying that his way of mitigating those characters is mechanically fucked up and doesn't work. He can't point his shield at them because they can just walk through it and his entire body with virtually no loss to their efficacy. He can't swing his hammer at them because they can just walk through his body, are doing quintuple his damage with easy (automatic in Reaper's case) recovery and/or disabling him in the process. It's not about being able to win a fight against them. It's about Rein's best approach to being jumped on by one of them being to turn tail and run, in Reaper's case because he's just a great big health and ult battery, and in Mei's case to give other people a clear shot instead of body blocking the sight lines.

    i still don't know what you mean about them being able to walk through his body. enemy characters all have collision with each other, and i don't know that i've ever heard of anyone else mention phasing through characters (not counting actual phase abilities, obvs). i don't have like a super detailed resource for rein's swing hitbox and all that, but if mei is on screen and in range when you swing you will hit her, and if you don't the game isn't working as intended.

    Here's a montage from 2016, before she got the big buff to make her freeze even stickier.



    Particularly at about 50 seconds in she prances straight up and through Rein's FOV to parts unknown, and the clip right before that has a bit too to confirm the kill. I'm sure I could record a couple clips the next time I play Rein, but I haven't played in like a week so you'll probably be waiting a while, especially if their vaunted more frequent and more aggressive updates are these tiny tweaks every couple weeks.

    Also, side note, christ, it hurts to see how bad and buggy charge used to be, especially as it still is buggy as fuck even after the supposed big fix.

    The 50 second one she clearly comes from the point and Rein is at half health and abandoned by his only nearby teammate. Rein also has firestrike up for the whole time he lets her close uncountered which is kinda relevant given that she walked away with 50 hp. The one right before that is Rein walking into a Blizzard to Hammer Strike? Weirdly trading stun ults goes poorly one one person is backed up by their team and the other isn't.

    Alone Rein does get fucked but his kit is pretty heavily team enabling which fares poorly when you go it without your team.

  • Canis_AnubisCanis_Anubis Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Symmetra really needed it (so does Torb, or at least make the turret turning to attack be slower because the animation doesn't even catch up with it if it goes 180 behind it), but I don't think Ana needed the buff. She essentially now always has two fatties to shoot at and try and heal and build ult, it you can't those sides of a barn you shouldn't be playing her.

    If they're moving to 3/2/1, she will need some help, since she'll only have one tank to target, and less peel. I could be wrong, however.
    Alone Rein does get fucked but his kit is pretty heavily team enabling which fares poorly when you go it without your team.

    1000% this. Rectangle man has one job: Put barrier in front of team.

    Canis_Anubis on
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Alone Rein does get fucked but his kit is pretty heavily team enabling which fares poorly when you go it without your team.

    1000% this. Rectangle man has one job: Put barrier in front of team.

    That's how a bad Rein plays (a really bad Rein will just charge all the time). He puts out quite a bit of damage if you can get close enough, so you should either be trying to close the distance or stay somewhere the enemy needs to go. If all you do is stand there with your shield up, the enemy team will destroy it and then what?

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  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    A good Rein knows that his own health is another tanking resource he has at his disposal in addition to the shield. If his health is staying at full then he's not using that resource effectively. When he's not in melee range he should be pushing forward aggressively with the shield to get into melee range, with his team supporting him. That's more true now than ever with the recent tank changes. Once he's in melee range he needs to alternate between swinging and shielding - he wants to be doing as much damage as possible without getting killed, using the shield as a breather to give his healers time to save him. Enemies are very unlikely to be shooting at your teammates when they are actively getting hit by a hammer.

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