Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[#MeToo] Comes To Gaming

2456736

Posts

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    NotYou wrote: »
    Wasn't there already a gaming meToo moment a year ago where bunch of people were accused like this? Maybe I'm misremembering. I wonder if it'll become less like waves, and more constant.

    Maybe thinking of the #OneReasonWhy era of things?

    I think it was more spread out with some streamers, e-sports people, and developers. Even now it isn't exactly a rush, but sort of a continuation.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I don't buy that any developer group or publisher would be 'just finding out' about this shit.

    I worked with a guy who used to literally beat his girlfriend and say racist shit all the time. The employer 'didn't know' because they didn't want to know. Because knowing meant acknowledgement of the behavior and would require action. Wouldn't want silly ethics to get in the way of business or have to act morally and intervene.

    He was eventually fired. He kicked his dog, which bit him on the foot, which got infected and he died. Fuck that guy, but everyone knew.

    I'm not saying employers need to thoroughly intrude or investigate the lives of employees, but maybe look into a thing if your entire female talent pool has an issue rather than feign ignorance until you can tweet about it and score points for being woke.

    I worked with plenty of people I didn't and don't know shit about. The idea that "they had to know" is silly.

    ErlkönigAridholSmrtnikshoeboxjeddyRhesus PositiveEtiowsaHappylilElfDiannaoChongJohnny ChopsockyDark Raven XGONG-00mrondeauShadowfireCojo Mojodurandal4532urahonkyJazzBloodsheedKoopahTroopahXaquinStabbity StyleGnizmoDaenrisGnome-InterruptusVishNubIlpalaMartini_PhilosopherEmerlmaster999Greenrhylithcaligynefobnever dieMegaMekYamiB.MagellDelzhandElvenshaeTofystedethChiselphaneJeep-EepZilla360NeveronNobeardRear Admiral ChocoGennenalyse RuebenHacksawFlying CouchCaedwyrSkeithDisruptedCapitalistbalerbowerElldrenMr RayDizzy DLegacySanguinius666264KetarKnuckle DraggerNo-QuarterHefflingBrovid HasselsmofLord_AsmodeusDescendant XpainfulPleasanceNightDragon
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I don't buy that any developer group or publisher would be 'just finding out' about this shit.

    I worked with a guy who used to literally beat his girlfriend and say racist shit all the time. The employer 'didn't know' because they didn't want to know. Because knowing meant acknowledgement of the behavior and would require action. Wouldn't want silly ethics to get in the way of business or have to act morally and intervene.

    He was eventually fired. He kicked his dog, which bit him on the foot, which got infected and he died. Fuck that guy, but everyone knew.

    I'm not saying employers need to thoroughly intrude or investigate the lives of employees, but maybe look into a thing if your entire female talent pool has an issue rather than feign ignorance until you can tweet about it and score points for being woke.

    I worked with plenty of people I didn't and don't know shit about. The idea that "they had to know" is silly.

    I've been working with a guy for 9 years every day, i know he has a wife (whose name i know, because she calls out office number regularly), 2 kids (whose names i forgot 10 minutes after he told me), and... That's about it.

    steam_sig.png
    HappylilElfGnome-InterruptusTofystedethLegacyCelestialBadgerDescendant X
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Alec Holowka coded and also composed the music for NITW, which bums me it immensely because I listened to that soundtrack all the time while working and now I need to cut it out of my life.
    Can I ask why you *need* to cut it out of your life? Is it just that it makes you feel skeevy or that it will always remind you of someone skeevy? With you writing "I need to...", it sounds to me like you're considering this a moral imperative, but I may be misunderstanding you.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
    Phoenix-D
  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    edited August 29
    Thirith wrote: »
    Alec Holowka coded and also composed the music for NITW, which bums me it immensely because I listened to that soundtrack all the time while working and now I need to cut it out of my life.
    Can I ask why you *need* to cut it out of your life? Is it just that it makes you feel skeevy or that it will always remind you of someone skeevy? With you writing "I need to...", it sounds to me like you're considering this a moral imperative, but I may be misunderstanding you.

    Basically, yeah, it's kinda been ruined for me mentally. I can't associate it with positive things now, so it's gotta go. This is a part of that soundtrack listening experience now, whether I like it or not.

    It's cursed knowledge. I learn something and it makes things less good. It's good that I know it, but it doesn't feel good to know it.

    Johnny Chopsocky on
    ygPIJ.gif
    Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
    DiplominatorCaptain Ironsides EtiowsaEncdurandal4532SleepStabbity StyleMan in the MistsTetraNitroCubaneLovelyJeep-EepKristmas KthulhuCalicaJaysonFourRear Admiral ChocoQuidCambiataBrovid HasselsmofNightDragonmarajiButler
  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Thanks, I definitely understand that. There are a few Kevin Spacey films that I used to enjoy that at least for the next few years I'm not going to watch, but I think I find it easier to listen to music while ignoring the person who made it than I do with films and actors, where you're looking at the actual people. Though, having said that, I've not listened to the NitW soundtrack in the last few days, and I don't think I'd actively go out and listen to it right now.

    webp-net-resizeimage.jpg
    "Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
    Captain Ironsides
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited August 29
    There is something especially creepy about knowing someones music was written by forcing sexual intercourse or similar out of women. Whenever I listen to the music of Skyrim or Dawn of War I'm hearing... women being coerced into sex?

    That's some kind of weird horror movie style shit right there.

    Edit: I was reminded of this Alien novel, where a composure used tortured human screams and the howls of an Alien Queen to compose music.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
    knitdanFencingsaxJohnny ChopsockymRahmaniBlackDragon480ShadowfireCantideGnome-InterruptusMartini_PhilosopherThe SauceTynnanJeep-EepKristmas KthulhuMvrckCalicaJaysonFourSkeithCambiata
  • chosenofsotekchosenofsotek Registered User regular
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/588619-starbound-dev-allegedly-worked-hundreds-hours-no-pay

    Looks like others have been inspired to come forward about exploitation at Chucklefish. These reddit thread comments quote Twitter posts claiming there might have been sexual harassment at Chucklefish as well:

    http://reddit.com/r/starbound/comments/cwzoi5/reports_of_unpaid_workers_and_possible_sexual/

    This... is pretty upsetting. Starbound helped me get through some very dark times in my life and to see it was built upon exploiting 16 year old kids fills me with rage and sadness. And I also loved Soule's music! But the fact it was inspired by him raping someone? Jesus Christ, it's disgusting. I'm not sure if I can separate the art from the artist.

    EncCantideKristmas KthulhuCalicaJaysonFourAegeriCambiata
  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited August 29
    Noooooooooo, not Chucklefish... Come on, dude.... :sad:

    KoopahTroopah on
    ?username=KoopahTroopah&theme=light

    Steam - Battle.net - Koopah089 - PSN/Xbox - 1639-6388-9968/KoopahTroopah - Switch
    XaquinShadowfireCantideurahonkyLovelyElvenshaeCojo MojoZibblsnrtJaysonFourRear Admiral ChocoAegeriMr RayKnuckle DraggerMagic Pink
  • Yes, and...Yes, and... Registered User regular
    edited August 29
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/588619-starbound-dev-allegedly-worked-hundreds-hours-no-pay

    Looks like others have been inspired to come forward about exploitation at Chucklefish. These reddit thread comments quote Twitter posts claiming there might have been sexual harassment at Chucklefish as well:

    http://reddit.com/r/starbound/comments/cwzoi5/reports_of_unpaid_workers_and_possible_sexual/

    This... is pretty upsetting. Starbound helped me get through some very dark times in my life and to see it was built upon exploiting 16 year old kids fills me with rage and sadness. And I also loved Soule's music! But the fact it was inspired by him raping someone? Jesus Christ, it's disgusting. I'm not sure if I can separate the art from the artist.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Soule was lying about his sexual needs and inspirations. I absolutely believe Lawhead when she claims that he told her all kinds of things about his appetites, "needs", creative process or whatever. But I also know that there are guys out there who will come up with the most overwrought guilt-trips and other manipulations, including lying, exaggerating and dissembling as part of their campaign of manipulation and coercion of women they want to abuse. I haven't done a lot of digging, but I've taken a few minutes to go back and review public comments by Soule about his creative process, and there just isn't anything in the articles and interviews that I've seen that suggests a prominent sexual component to his creative process.

    Yes, and... on
    Phoenix-DEchoSmrtnikMr Ray
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    I've reconciled the
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/588619-starbound-dev-allegedly-worked-hundreds-hours-no-pay

    Looks like others have been inspired to come forward about exploitation at Chucklefish. These reddit thread comments quote Twitter posts claiming there might have been sexual harassment at Chucklefish as well:

    http://reddit.com/r/starbound/comments/cwzoi5/reports_of_unpaid_workers_and_possible_sexual/

    This... is pretty upsetting. Starbound helped me get through some very dark times in my life and to see it was built upon exploiting 16 year old kids fills me with rage and sadness. And I also loved Soule's music! But the fact it was inspired by him raping someone? Jesus Christ, it's disgusting. I'm not sure if I can separate the art from the artist.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Soule was lying about his sexual needs and inspirations. I absolutely believe Lawhead when she claims that he told her all kinds of things about his appetites, "needs", creative process or whatever. But I also know that there are guys out there who will come up with the most overwrought guilt-trips and other manipulations, including lying, exaggerating and dissembling as part of their campaign of manipulation and coercion of women they want to abuse. I haven't done a lot of digging, but I've taken a few minutes to go back and review public comments by Soule about his creative process, and there just isn't anything in the articles and interviews that I've seen that suggests a prominent sexual component to his creative process.

    Why shouldn't we believe what he said to Lawhead is true? Arguing that it's never come up in his interviews is inconclusive, because predators routinely code shift and often know exactly what they can - and can't - say to a particular audience.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    DaenrisEntriechCantideJohnny ChopsockyCouscousTetraNitroCubaneMayabirdBlackDragon480TynnanFencingsaxJeep-EepKristmas KthulhuCalicaJaysonFourMan in the MistsHacksawAegeriElldrenCambiatapainfulPleasanceNightDragonmaraji
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    edited August 29
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I don't buy that any developer group or publisher would be 'just finding out' about this shit.

    I worked with a guy who used to literally beat his girlfriend and say racist shit all the time. The employer 'didn't know' because they didn't want to know. Because knowing meant acknowledgement of the behavior and would require action. Wouldn't want silly ethics to get in the way of business or have to act morally and intervene.

    He was eventually fired. He kicked his dog, which bit him on the foot, which got infected and he died. Fuck that guy, but everyone knew.

    I'm not saying employers need to thoroughly intrude or investigate the lives of employees, but maybe look into a thing if your entire female talent pool has an issue rather than feign ignorance until you can tweet about it and score points for being woke.

    I worked with plenty of people I didn't and don't know shit about. The idea that "they had to know" is silly.

    I've been working with a guy for 9 years every day, i know he has a wife (whose name i know, because she calls out office number regularly), 2 kids (whose names i forgot 10 minutes after he told me), and... That's about it.

    Abusers are often exceptionally good at having extremely bipolar personalities (as in, two opposite affects). It's part of how a ton of them operate. It's part of why people don't believe women. Becky says Todd is an abusive racist, but he's always so.. kind to me, and jovial with her when we're out together, so she must be misreading something or something. There are definitely abusive people who are just assholes to everyone. But there are also smoother sociopathic types, who are fully capable of wearing a friendly person-suit when anyone except their present target is around. It's so much easier to gaslight someone when everyone else thinks they're crazy, too.

    (this is also a thing men, in general, might not be aware of, because even when these secrets are known, or suspected, women often keep them guarded. I knew this happened, but it's a lot more than expected. Post-transition, most women I deal with regularly have either requested I do things like guard their drinks when we're out with men of a certain type, or talk with me, when no one else is around, to ask my opinion on whether or not someone is creepy. Always in rooms with only women, because they know that men generally don't pick up on those things, are likely to dismiss any warning signs that aren't themselves completely outlandish, and might even relay them back to the person in question. Women totally do all these things, too, but there is definitely, in my experience, a nearly universal secret network that only women are aware of).

    Just last night someone asked me about a person that we both knew, who makes her uncomfortable.

    Shivahn on
    tynicIncenjucarOneAngryPossumMayabirdLord PalingtonMagellCelloAistanAtomikaTynnanLinespider5shrykeFencingsaxKristmas KthulhuZilla360LabelCalicaJaysonFourGennenalyse RuebenHacksawKetBraNobeardSkeithElldrenMrVyngaardjoshofalltradesLegacyCambiataMortal SkyNightDragon
  • Havelock2.0Havelock2.0 Registered User regular
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    HAVELOCK2.0! NEW LOOK, SAME TASTE!
  • Yes, and...Yes, and... Registered User regular
    I've reconciled the
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/588619-starbound-dev-allegedly-worked-hundreds-hours-no-pay

    Looks like others have been inspired to come forward about exploitation at Chucklefish. These reddit thread comments quote Twitter posts claiming there might have been sexual harassment at Chucklefish as well:

    http://reddit.com/r/starbound/comments/cwzoi5/reports_of_unpaid_workers_and_possible_sexual/

    This... is pretty upsetting. Starbound helped me get through some very dark times in my life and to see it was built upon exploiting 16 year old kids fills me with rage and sadness. And I also loved Soule's music! But the fact it was inspired by him raping someone? Jesus Christ, it's disgusting. I'm not sure if I can separate the art from the artist.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Soule was lying about his sexual needs and inspirations. I absolutely believe Lawhead when she claims that he told her all kinds of things about his appetites, "needs", creative process or whatever. But I also know that there are guys out there who will come up with the most overwrought guilt-trips and other manipulations, including lying, exaggerating and dissembling as part of their campaign of manipulation and coercion of women they want to abuse. I haven't done a lot of digging, but I've taken a few minutes to go back and review public comments by Soule about his creative process, and there just isn't anything in the articles and interviews that I've seen that suggests a prominent sexual component to his creative process.

    Why shouldn't we believe what he said to Lawhead is true? Arguing that it's never come up in his interviews is inconclusive, because predators routinely code shift and often know exactly what they can - and can't - say to a particular audience.

    "there are guys out there who will come up with the most overwrought guilt-trips and other manipulations, including lying, exaggerating and dissembling as part of their campaign of manipulation and coercion of women they want to abuse"

    shrykeJeep-Eep
  • chosenofsotekchosenofsotek Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I don't buy that any developer group or publisher would be 'just finding out' about this shit.

    I worked with a guy who used to literally beat his girlfriend and say racist shit all the time. The employer 'didn't know' because they didn't want to know. Because knowing meant acknowledgement of the behavior and would require action. Wouldn't want silly ethics to get in the way of business or have to act morally and intervene.

    He was eventually fired. He kicked his dog, which bit him on the foot, which got infected and he died. Fuck that guy, but everyone knew.

    I'm not saying employers need to thoroughly intrude or investigate the lives of employees, but maybe look into a thing if your entire female talent pool has an issue rather than feign ignorance until you can tweet about it and score points for being woke.

    I worked with plenty of people I didn't and don't know shit about. The idea that "they had to know" is silly.

    I've been working with a guy for 9 years every day, i know he has a wife (whose name i know, because she calls out office number regularly), 2 kids (whose names i forgot 10 minutes after he told me), and... That's about it.

    Abusers are often exceptionally good at having extremely bipolar personalities (as in, two opposite affects). It's part of how a ton of them operate. It's part of why people don't believe women. Becky says Todd is an abusive racist, but he's always so.. kind to me, and jovial with her when we're out together, so she must be misreading something or something. There are definitely abusive people who are just assholes to everyone. But there are also smoother sociopathic types, who are fully capable of wearing a friendly person-suit when anyone except their present target is around. It's so much easier to gaslight someone when everyone else thinks they're crazy, too.

    (this is also a thing men, in general, might not be aware of, because even when these secrets are known, or suspected, women often keep them guarded. I knew this happened, but it's a lot more than expected. Post-transition, most women I deal with regularly have either requested I do things like guard their drinks when we're out with men of a certain type, or talk with me, when no one else is around, to ask my opinion on whether or not someone is creepy. Always in rooms with only women, because they know that men generally don't pick up on those things, are likely to dismiss any warning signs that aren't themselves completely outlandish, and might even relay them back to the person in question. Women totally do all these things, too, but there is definitely, in my experience, a nearly universal secret network that only women are aware of).

    Just last night someone asked me about a person that we both knew, who makes her uncomfortable.

    In my last unit in the Army there was a guy that everyone got along with fairly well, despite some weird vibes. We then one day found out, the entire time we knew him, he was under investigation for two rapes. The only reason we found out before the trial was because he tried to rape a female soldier in my unit and the lid came off that can of worms.

    ShivahnBlackDragon480Jeep-Eep
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited August 29
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    I’m not sure there are answers. Orson Scott Card is a piece of shit, but he wrote a couple of the most empathetic, loving books I’ve ever read. One of my favorite musicians has an at best questionable past with women, but works mental illness and political awareness into their work in a way I genuinely relate to. Bjork put out an album about gentrification in DC that didn’t include any input from the members of that community, but some of the songs are still pretty good!

    Some of these I revisit, some I don’t, but it’s something that’s always present. I don’t buy anything of Card’s, but I share the books I have with others. In some ways I think there’s value in experiencing their art, as it’s potentially a means of understanding why these people are who they are, even if they’re flawed.

    The closest thing I have to a hard line is not providing financial support for people I feel are actively making the world worse, regardless of their talent. Apologies, acknowledgment, consequences, and seeking redemption are the road back, but not a lot of men accused are interested in walking that path.

    Edit: Just to clarify, I’m not trying to say the above are as dangerous and predatory as the allegations of rape, assault, and harassment being discussed. Just that it’s a tricky thing to navigate engaging with art from people who have done terrible things to others, with a lot of shades of grey and personal comfort coming down to the individual.

    I feel that those still active and employed need to face the consequences of their actions if they ever want to deserve being welcomed back into the fold, but I’m still pessimistic about the likelihood of that. I’m glad to see these companies acting now, at least.

    OneAngryPossum on
    urahonkyMrVyngaardCambiata
  • chosenofsotekchosenofsotek Registered User regular
    edited August 29
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Same here. I talked to my gf about this, and her thinking is to separate going forward. She refuses to watch any movie involving Johnny Depp in the future, but that doesn't stop her from enjoying things from the past before she had any knowledge of how shitty he is, such as Pirates. To a certain extent I agree, and I would probably take that stance with Jeremy Soule if it wasn't for the fact his work was built upon the suffering of others. I don't want to listen to any of his music anymore because of that. But I guess there's also the fact he's only one part of Skyrim, GW2, etc, and the rest of the people that worked on those games are likely decent people. Do I seperate from those games because of one shitty person? However, if he gets any work after this, I won't have anything to do with that game or the company that hired him.

    chosenofsotek on
    Julius
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    This is an excellent thread on the issues with coming forward and whisper networks from a mobile game dev:

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    CantideIncenjucarMillDarkPrimusKristmas Kthulhunever dieJaysonFourJohnny ChopsockyElvenshaeGennenalyse RuebenSkeithAegeriTicaldfjamRhesus PositiveElldrenSyphonBlueLegacyCambiataLord_AsmodeusNightDragonmarajiBandable
  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Richland, WARegistered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Idk. Like, John Lennon beat his wife and I still enjoy the Beatles. Roman Polanski was a sexual abuser and yet I still enjoy Chinatown and a few of his other movies. It's complicated.

    SijLqhH.png
    Steam: stabbitystyle | uPlay: stabbitystyle | b.net: Stabbity#1528 | XBL: Stabbity Style | PSN: Stabbity_Style | Twitch: stabbitystyle
    FANTOMASMrVyngaardLegacy
  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    I don't buy that any developer group or publisher would be 'just finding out' about this shit.

    I worked with a guy who used to literally beat his girlfriend and say racist shit all the time. The employer 'didn't know' because they didn't want to know. Because knowing meant acknowledgement of the behavior and would require action. Wouldn't want silly ethics to get in the way of business or have to act morally and intervene.

    He was eventually fired. He kicked his dog, which bit him on the foot, which got infected and he died. Fuck that guy, but everyone knew.

    I'm not saying employers need to thoroughly intrude or investigate the lives of employees, but maybe look into a thing if your entire female talent pool has an issue rather than feign ignorance until you can tweet about it and score points for being woke.

    I worked with plenty of people I didn't and don't know shit about. The idea that "they had to know" is silly.

    I've been working with a guy for 9 years every day, i know he has a wife (whose name i know, because she calls out office number regularly), 2 kids (whose names i forgot 10 minutes after he told me), and... That's about it.

    Abusers are often exceptionally good at having extremely bipolar personalities (as in, two opposite affects). It's part of how a ton of them operate. It's part of why people don't believe women. Becky says Todd is an abusive racist, but he's always so.. kind to me, and jovial with her when we're out together, so she must be misreading something or something. There are definitely abusive people who are just assholes to everyone. But there are also smoother sociopathic types, who are fully capable of wearing a friendly person-suit when anyone except their present target is around. It's so much easier to gaslight someone when everyone else thinks they're crazy, too.

    (this is also a thing men, in general, might not be aware of, because even when these secrets are known, or suspected, women often keep them guarded. I knew this happened, but it's a lot more than expected. Post-transition, most women I deal with regularly have either requested I do things like guard their drinks when we're out with men of a certain type, or talk with me, when no one else is around, to ask my opinion on whether or not someone is creepy. Always in rooms with only women, because they know that men generally don't pick up on those things, are likely to dismiss any warning signs that aren't themselves completely outlandish, and might even relay them back to the person in question. Women totally do all these things, too, but there is definitely, in my experience, a nearly universal secret network that only women are aware of).

    Just last night someone asked me about a person that we both knew, who makes her uncomfortable.

    Also there's a huge difference between not knowing your coworkers well, and a coworker or boss abusing his power in a space to date or harass groups of women e.g. Alexis Kennedy

    It's certainly arguable that his behaviour may have been more visible than your standard guy-who-abuses-his-wife, there were reportedly rumours for years and he used his workplace as his prime creeping location, and also was apparently gross (e.g. constantly using different food terms to describe Meg's skin even when she asked him not to), which you'd hope some colleagues could have called him out on

    It should definitely be called into question how aware the company was and what was done, if anything, to curb those behaviours, as well as what they'll do to protect employees going forward (though to be realistic, the only way employees of any tech company will be protected are diverse hiring practices and unionization)

    Steam
    3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
    Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
    tynicCantidedispatch.oLord PalingtonLabelJaysonFourHacksawMan in the MistsDisruptedCapitalistMulysaSemproniusLord_Asmodeus
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I guess maybe the difference is that John Lennon admitted he was shitty and did better

    Doesn't excuse the behaviour, but it's better than always being a pos

  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    I've reconciled the
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/588619-starbound-dev-allegedly-worked-hundreds-hours-no-pay

    Looks like others have been inspired to come forward about exploitation at Chucklefish. These reddit thread comments quote Twitter posts claiming there might have been sexual harassment at Chucklefish as well:

    http://reddit.com/r/starbound/comments/cwzoi5/reports_of_unpaid_workers_and_possible_sexual/

    This... is pretty upsetting. Starbound helped me get through some very dark times in my life and to see it was built upon exploiting 16 year old kids fills me with rage and sadness. And I also loved Soule's music! But the fact it was inspired by him raping someone? Jesus Christ, it's disgusting. I'm not sure if I can separate the art from the artist.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Soule was lying about his sexual needs and inspirations. I absolutely believe Lawhead when she claims that he told her all kinds of things about his appetites, "needs", creative process or whatever. But I also know that there are guys out there who will come up with the most overwrought guilt-trips and other manipulations, including lying, exaggerating and dissembling as part of their campaign of manipulation and coercion of women they want to abuse. I haven't done a lot of digging, but I've taken a few minutes to go back and review public comments by Soule about his creative process, and there just isn't anything in the articles and interviews that I've seen that suggests a prominent sexual component to his creative process.

    Why shouldn't we believe what he said to Lawhead is true? Arguing that it's never come up in his interviews is inconclusive, because predators routinely code shift and often know exactly what they can - and can't - say to a particular audience.

    Also honestly, trying to argue that his inspiration for his music wasn't abuse sort of feels like just trying to find a way to still appreciate the music and ignore that revelation

    He said it, and either it means he really does use that violence to make music (and no one should hire him again), or he said it to hurt her (and no one should hire him again), but either way his product is tainted by association

    Steam
    3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
    Switch Friend Code: SW-7437-1538-7786
    CalicaGnizmo
  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    Much like serial killers, if you camouflage your abuse with an aura of friendly personality, you can get away with so much more.

    If you’re an asshole to everyone, word gets around.

    KaputaMrVyngaard
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited August 29
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Idk. Like, John Lennon beat his wife and I still enjoy the Beatles. Roman Polanski was a sexual abuser and yet I still enjoy Chinatown and a few of his other movies. It's complicated.

    In John Lennon's case any current royalties still going to band members and their families are probably also going to Yoko Ono, so in a way you're helping to make it better.

    For me it's usually a blackout period until I can watch or listen whatever it was without the relation getting in the way of enjoying it. With Soule, embarrassingly it might be relatively quickly, because I don't really think about the composer of what I listen to; if it wasn't mentioned in the thread I would be completely oblivious about him doing Skyrim's OST (Also in regards of GW2, I think he only did the orignal soundtrack, everything new afterwards was with a different in-house composer). Probably going to be a long while before I can play Starbound again, though ConcernedApe going separate ways from them will let me bear seeing their logo every time I start up Stardew Valley.

    Foefaller on
    steam_sig.png
    SleepJragghen
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Idk. Like, John Lennon beat his wife and I still enjoy the Beatles. Roman Polanski was a sexual abuser and yet I still enjoy Chinatown and a few of his other movies. It's complicated.

    To be honest, to me, the entire output of the 60s/70s peace, love, and revolution generation is tainted by tales of gross abuses behind the scenes and what happened when that generation took power. I can appreciate the movies and music, but it doesn't inspire much passion.

    I get the feeling a lot of gaming is going to feel that way once the dirty linen gets aired.

    AngelHedgieCouscousBlackDragon480AistanTryCatcherStabbity StyleSleepCantideDoodmannLovelyFencingsaxKristmas KthulhuJaysonFourHacksawMan in the MistsAegeriSkeithDisruptedCapitalistMulysaSemproniusjmcdonaldCambiataCptKemzikMortal SkyBloodySloth
  • Yes, and...Yes, and... Registered User regular
    Cello wrote: »
    I've reconciled the
    https://www.gamerevolution.com/news/588619-starbound-dev-allegedly-worked-hundreds-hours-no-pay

    Looks like others have been inspired to come forward about exploitation at Chucklefish. These reddit thread comments quote Twitter posts claiming there might have been sexual harassment at Chucklefish as well:

    http://reddit.com/r/starbound/comments/cwzoi5/reports_of_unpaid_workers_and_possible_sexual/

    This... is pretty upsetting. Starbound helped me get through some very dark times in my life and to see it was built upon exploiting 16 year old kids fills me with rage and sadness. And I also loved Soule's music! But the fact it was inspired by him raping someone? Jesus Christ, it's disgusting. I'm not sure if I can separate the art from the artist.

    Here's a thought. Maybe Soule was lying about his sexual needs and inspirations. I absolutely believe Lawhead when she claims that he told her all kinds of things about his appetites, "needs", creative process or whatever. But I also know that there are guys out there who will come up with the most overwrought guilt-trips and other manipulations, including lying, exaggerating and dissembling as part of their campaign of manipulation and coercion of women they want to abuse. I haven't done a lot of digging, but I've taken a few minutes to go back and review public comments by Soule about his creative process, and there just isn't anything in the articles and interviews that I've seen that suggests a prominent sexual component to his creative process.

    Why shouldn't we believe what he said to Lawhead is true? Arguing that it's never come up in his interviews is inconclusive, because predators routinely code shift and often know exactly what they can - and can't - say to a particular audience.

    Also honestly, trying to argue that his inspiration for his music wasn't abuse sort of feels like just trying to find a way to still appreciate the music and ignore that revelation

    He said it, and either it means he really does use that violence to make music (and no one should hire him again), or he said it to hurt her (and no one should hire him again), but either way his product is tainted by association

    That's exactly what it was. I think people can choose to draw the line at different places when it comes to their engagement with art and consumer products. Some people seemed to be saying that they draw the line at direct products of abuse, and that they now see certain compositions in that light. I think there are reasons to question how truthful Soule was being when he told Lawhead the things she says he told her about his "needs" and creative process. Soule's music is clearly the product of an abuser, and if that's a bridge too far for people I'm not about to challenge that at all.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Idk. Like, John Lennon beat his wife and I still enjoy the Beatles. Roman Polanski was a sexual abuser and yet I still enjoy Chinatown and a few of his other movies. It's complicated.

    In John Lennon's case any current royalties still going to band members and their families are probably also going to Yoko Ono, so in a way you're helping to make it better.

    For me it's usually a blackout period until I can watch or listen whatever it was without the relation getting in the way of enjoying it. With Soule, embarrassingly it might be relatively quickly, because I don't really think about the composer of what I listen to; if it wasn't mentioned in the thread I would be completely oblivious about him doing Skyrim's OST (Also in regards of GW2, I think he only did the orignal soundtrack, everything new afterwards was with a different in-house composer). Probably going to be a long while before I can play Starbound again, though ConcernedApe going separate ways from them will let me bear seeing their logo every time I start up Stardew Valley.

    Inclusive spaces are also spaces where women gather. There has always been a breed of predator who is drawn to artistic and left political spaces because of the easy access to women, and the surface promotion of the group's values is just an example of a predator manipulating others to better blend in and find victims.

    Yes, and...tynicTryCatcherBethrynJeep-EepLoisLaneCalicaJaysonFourHacksawTynnanMr RayCptKemzik
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Idk. Like, John Lennon beat his wife and I still enjoy the Beatles. Roman Polanski was a sexual abuser and yet I still enjoy Chinatown and a few of his other movies. It's complicated.

    In John Lennon's case any current royalties still going to band members and their families are probably also going to Yoko Ono, so in a way you're helping to make it better.

    For me it's usually a blackout period until I can watch or listen whatever it was without the relation getting in the way of enjoying it. With Soule, embarrassingly it might be relatively quickly, because I don't really think about the composer of what I listen to; if it wasn't mentioned in the thread I would be completely oblivious about him doing Skyrim's OST (Also in regards of GW2, I think he only did the orignal soundtrack, everything new afterwards was with a different in-house composer). Probably going to be a long while before I can play Starbound again, though ConcernedApe going separate ways from them will let me bear seeing their logo every time I start up Stardew Valley.

    Inclusive spaces are also spaces where women gather. There has always been a breed of predator who is drawn to artistic and left political spaces because of the easy access to women, and the surface promotion of the group's values is just an example of a predator manipulating others to better blend in and find victims.

    I'm kinda confused why you're quoting my post for this, to be honest, because it doesn't seem like it has anything to do about what I said.

    steam_sig.png
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    So I canned my Skyrim and Northern Diaries albums. Literally the least I could do.

    I saw Dawn of War listed, did Soule do work on that? Or was that Doyle Donehoo

    It's complicated. I like these albums a lot, and they will remind me of this terrible thing when I hear them.

    Do I delete them and remove them from my life?
    Is that better than listening to them as a reminder as to what a shithead the author is?
    Is authorial control more important than the material?

    I don't have answers here. I'm going to have to wressle with it.

    Idk. Like, John Lennon beat his wife and I still enjoy the Beatles. Roman Polanski was a sexual abuser and yet I still enjoy Chinatown and a few of his other movies. It's complicated.

    In John Lennon's case any current royalties still going to band members and their families are probably also going to Yoko Ono, so in a way you're helping to make it better.

    For me it's usually a blackout period until I can watch or listen whatever it was without the relation getting in the way of enjoying it. With Soule, embarrassingly it might be relatively quickly, because I don't really think about the composer of what I listen to; if it wasn't mentioned in the thread I would be completely oblivious about him doing Skyrim's OST (Also in regards of GW2, I think he only did the orignal soundtrack, everything new afterwards was with a different in-house composer). Probably going to be a long while before I can play Starbound again, though ConcernedApe going separate ways from them will let me bear seeing their logo every time I start up Stardew Valley.

    Inclusive spaces are also spaces where women gather. There has always been a breed of predator who is drawn to artistic and left political spaces because of the easy access to women, and the surface promotion of the group's values is just an example of a predator manipulating others to better blend in and find victims.

    Mentioned on that twitter thread:



    "Guy with "Male Feminist" on his Twitter profile turns out to be a rapist" is a very repeated headline at this point.

  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Culturally, I think a baseline needs to be established that just because someone is good at their job, it doesn’t mean they’re a good person.

    Sure, Soule has composed music people like-as he was hired to do. We like to romanticize creativity and the people who get to use a creative skill as a big part of their daily life. We want to feel close to them because they can elicit emotional responses in us that affect our lives and our ways of looking at the world. It can be especially challenging trying to square this in the face of many creative industries where there are a lot of people struggling to get paid, get credited for their work, or just make a living at what they love. It creates a difficult undertone when someone who is successful in their field is also a terrible person.

    We want to feel like the people who succeed are the people who deserve to succeed. We’d like it if was possible that terrible people didn’t somehow earn their way in their field. But things are not so congruent. An asshole can also be hardworking, talented, and forced to make unfair sacrifices to get started in their career.

    rahkeesh2000Mr RayMrVyngaard
  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    Bjork put out an album about gentrification in DC that didn’t include any input from the members of that community, but some of the songs are still pretty good!

    Did you mean PJ Harvey? Or is there a Bjork album I don't know about?

    y59kydgzuja4.png
    Linespider5OneAngryPossumtynic
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    Bjork put out an album about gentrification in DC that didn’t include any input from the members of that community, but some of the songs are still pretty good!

    Did you mean PJ Harvey? Or is there a Bjork album I don't know about?

    Whoops, yeah, that was Harvey. Apologies to Bjork and all Bjork-related entities.

    Legacy
  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    Oh, phew. As long as Bjork is still cool.

    y59kydgzuja4.png
    dispatch.oDisruptedCapitalistEncLegacyCambiata
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Bjork put out an album about gentrification in DC that didn’t include any input from the members of that community, but some of the songs are still pretty good!

    Did you mean PJ Harvey? Or is there a Bjork album I don't know about?

    Whoops, yeah, that was Harvey. Apologies to Bjork and all Bjork-related entities.

    Also, if we are talking about Tales from the City, Tales from the Sea... Well, it's certainly a take.

  • flamebroiledchickenflamebroiledchicken Registered User regular
    Bjork put out an album about gentrification in DC that didn’t include any input from the members of that community, but some of the songs are still pretty good!

    Did you mean PJ Harvey? Or is there a Bjork album I don't know about?

    Whoops, yeah, that was Harvey. Apologies to Bjork and all Bjork-related entities.

    Also, if we are talking about Tales from the City, Tales from the Sea... Well, it's certainly a take.

    Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic but I believe OneAngryPossum is talking about the Hope Six Demolition Project. Personally I think PJ's heart was in the right place, the execution was just badly fumbled and ended up kinda tone-deaf.

    On topic, I hope all these bastards get run out of the industry the way they tried to do to women 5 years ago.

    y59kydgzuja4.png
    OneAngryPossumKayne Red RobeLinespider5BlackDragon480Cambiata
  • ErlkönigErlkönig Registered User regular
    Bjork put out an album about gentrification in DC that didn’t include any input from the members of that community, but some of the songs are still pretty good!

    Did you mean PJ Harvey? Or is there a Bjork album I don't know about?

    Whoops, yeah, that was Harvey. Apologies to Bjork and all Bjork-related entities.

    Also, if we are talking about Tales from the City, Tales from the Sea... Well, it's certainly a take.

    Sorry, this is getting a bit off topic but I believe OneAngryPossum is talking about the Hope Six Demolition Project. Personally I think PJ's heart was in the right place, the execution was just badly fumbled and ended up kinda tone-deaf.

    On topic, I hope all these bastards get run out of the industry the way they tried to do to women 5 years ago.

    I hope so too...

    But! Anybody here pay attention to/remember the Extra Credits thing with James Portnow last year? Yeah, not only did he not get run out after having multiple women call him out, he got put on the board of Global Game Jam (even after the electing committee was made aware of his shit behavior). It's all disheartening and even after these past 5 years since the whole GeeGee malarky, we still need to do better.

    | Origin/R*SC/Steam: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum |
    BlackDragon480dispatch.oHerrCronCalicadurandal4532Cambiata
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    edited August 29
    oops, sorry

    syndalis on
    SW-4158-3990-6116
    Let's play Mario Kart or something...
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    Much like serial killers, if you camouflage your abuse with an aura of friendly personality, you can get away with so much more.

    If you’re an asshole to everyone, word gets around.

    Also, and this point struck home to me, sexual predators groom allies and defenders much like they groom victims.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
    BlackDragon480Yes, and...Johnny ChopsockyFencingsaxSleepRear Admiral ChocoMan in the MiststhatassemblyguyIncenjucarKoopahTroopahLoisLaneKayne Red RobeJeep-EepDoodmannmiscellaneousinsanityHybridSolarElldrenLovelyMrVyngaardMartini_Philosophermjn6172CalicaMetzger MeisterKristmas KthulhuArdolMagellCantideMulysaSemproniusKnuckle DraggerTetraNitroCubaneCambiatalonelyahavaSorceHefflingDescendant XpainfulPleasance
  • Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    Much like serial killers, if you camouflage your abuse with an aura of friendly personality, you can get away with so much more.

    If you’re an asshole to everyone, word gets around.

    Also, and this point struck home to me, sexual predators groom allies and defenders much like they groom victims.

    fuck.

    LabelRear Admiral ChocoNobeardDisruptedCapitalistnever dieRhesus PositiveElldrenMr RayMrVyngaardMartini_Philosophermjn6172CalicaMolotovCockatooMetzger MeisterOrca
Sign In or Register to comment.