Cyberpunk 2077 devs are LARPing as wageslaves for evil cyberpunk corp (delayed til Dec)

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  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    I’m sure there’s going to be PC mods that’ll let you go full cyber.

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  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    Ideally I won't have any neurons left because i'll have been uploaded as software into a robot construct.

    Is that a thing, in the Cyberpunk universe? I've not heard of full-on conciousness transfers, but I've heard of people's brains being scanned and digitised into AIs (Johnny Silverhand's girlfriend is now one of these, I believe), so I see no reason why those wouldn't be a thing.

    Space.
  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    I don't know anything about Cyberpunk, I'm just talking real life.

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  • jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    Official cosplay contest grand finals:


    (Contestant videos start at 3 minutes.)

    Pretty sweet looking stuff.

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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    Oh my. The Chromaticore ad is in there (with light up enhancements and all). That isn't going to please some folks.

    . . .and yeah the winner was quite well deserved there.

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  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    On top of that chromanticore cosplay being in poor taste it's also a bad costume that I don't understand how it made it to their finals.

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  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    On the plus side (I haven't watched it all yet), Pondsmith looking like an absolute baller with that guitar.

  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON IndiaRegistered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    Oh my. The Chromaticore ad is in there (with light up enhancements and all). That isn't going to please some folks.

    . . .and yeah the winner was quite well deserved there.
    Aistan wrote: »
    On top of that chromanticore cosplay being in poor taste it's also a bad costume that I don't understand how it made it to their finals.
    For anyone curious about this, this thread has a pretty good summary[/url].

    AistanCruor
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    I'm getting nervous. I can't preload Cyberpunk 2077 yet. It comes out in like 31 days, which is not a lot of time. Why can't I preload yet?!?!?!?!?!?

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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    Drez wrote: »
    I'm getting nervous. I can't preload Cyberpunk 2077 yet. It comes out in like 31 days, which is not a lot of time. Why can't I preload yet?!?!?!?!?!?

    I'll be damned. It is 31 days. It literally comes out in a month. I legit think I might make myself sick with anticipation the week before launch, especially if this thing reviews like gangbusters (though for some reason I'm getting Fallout 4 vibes the closer we get to release).
    ED! wrote: »
    Oh my. The Chromaticore ad is in there (with light up enhancements and all). That isn't going to please some folks.

    . . .and yeah the winner was quite well deserved there.
    Aistan wrote: »
    On top of that chromanticore cosplay being in poor taste it's also a bad costume that I don't understand how it made it to their finals.
    For anyone curious about this, this thread has a pretty good summary[/url].

    That thread has gone about exactly as I expected it to. The only part of that OP that I gave any real credence was the discussion of the CHROMATICORE ad from last year (the examples of the two community heads being indictive of a culture, not an instance, but a CULTURE of transphobia is ludicrous). And even that falls way short of making the point they think they are making. You can make an argument that the CHROMATICORE ad is ignorant and lacks sensitivity (which I would buy if trans issues were the only bit of modern culture that was treated this way in the game; it clearly isn't) - it's a pretty big leap to suggest this is indicative of transphobia (especially when it's girded on the two well worn and - in my opinion - worn out - Twitter examples) which means a very specific thing and is not a catch all for insensitivity.

    . . .especially when these are the ONLY examples from a company that has been in business for so long and (to the best of my knowledge) has trans employees.

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  • jammujammu 2020 is now. Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    You would have been banned for trolling if you'd posted that in resetera. It is really weird place.

    The contest winner was the right choice IMHO, although I really liked the Chromelady too.

    Chromaticore was ok, but tried too hard to be carried by the shock value.

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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON IndiaRegistered User regular
    I am not sure what it would take to suggest that there is a culture of transphobia if multiple instances of transphobia do not indicate a culture of transphobia. Do you expect the company to announce in a press release "hey, we have a culture of transphobia" or something (since if it merely tweeted it you'd blame the community head)? Or would you just blame whoever wrote the press release, and to really get evidence we'd have to have some sort of third party come in and run an investigation? I mean, given that 95% of the entire world is in a culture of transphobia, I basically need evidence that CDPR is an exception if I want to think they're not transphobic, and I hardly have seen any evidence like that!

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I do find the the jokes about genitals dated as hell, but I do wonder if people would be raising as big of a stink if it was say, Rockstar Games doing this type of thing. In the end I wish they had removed the joke from the game, but I doubt they even went that far. There's so much there to lampoon it feels a little mean spirited towards certain people. It feels like they're trying to be satirical but went too far and then kinda refused to admit it. I'll say this, their twitter presence is trash (not that I go on there) and I think most game companies just suck at hiring mature people to manage those social media accounts. It feels like they hired a friend who they can't admit has toxic tendencies, maybe because not enough people at CDPR are disagreeing or atleast trying to curb those problematic attitudes.

    Idk as someone with little to no attachment to the company all this bad PR is really something

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    I think it's walking the line enough to be read either way, which is likely just as problematic. Their response has been pretty ass, no denying that.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    I think it's walking the line enough to be read either way, which is likely just as problematic. Their response has been pretty ass, no denying that.

    In our current cultural context it can only really be read as transphobic. If you put that on a wall in the real world right now, it's a bad and offensive add.

    If in cyberpunk the place is filled with gender fluid bodies, and we already know you can do that to your own avatar with no restriction, it's just a sign of crass corporation targeting of popular culture in the future, much like we have here right now every day. (And which are pretty offensive right now, we've all just habituated to that shit by now)

    So really if we play cyberpunk and there aren't gender fluid normal conversations, people and body types literally filling the place brim to brim, then there's a problem.

    Given that I do not have the game right now tho, I'm gonna wait before I judge it. If the necessary context is not there, I'll dislike that ad too.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I guess I'm less worried about it making sense in context of the world or lore, and more how people playing the game will receive that joke. And if people are saying "this is harmful, please stop" the forum post linked above does a good job outlining their terrible response to those complaints about the joke.

    The irony is the game is supposed to be so progressive and about freedom of how you want to play and look. And yet they can't help but have their cake and eat it too, mocking that freedom as something bizarre and exotic.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    I have a huge disconnect with the complete dismissal of that artists intent in that post so I guess I'll just bow out here. If it's widely considered bad, I guess it's bad. I don't get it, but I don't have to.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I have a huge disconnect with the complete dismissal of that artists intent in that post so I guess I'll just bow out here. If it's widely considered bad, I guess it's bad. I don't get it, but I don't have to.

    This is less about intent and more about impact. And the proper way to respond.
    https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/07/intentions-dont-really-matter/
    In essence, the “intent” conversation is one about “what they are.”

    Because if someone intended their action to be hurtful and racist/sexist/transphobic/pickyourpoison, then they must inherently be racist/sexist/transphobic/pickyourpoison.

    On the other hand, the “impact” conversation is one about “what they did.”

    For you, it takes the person who said or did the hurtful thing out of the center and places the person who was hurt in the center. It ensures that the conversation is about how “what they did” hurts other people and further marginalizes or oppresses people.

    And it’s important for people to understand the difference.

    Just because you did something sexist doesn’t mean that you are sexist. Just because you said something racist doesn’t mean that you are racist.

    When your actions are called into question, it’s important to recognize that that’s all that is being called into question – your actions, not your overall character.

    Listen. Reflect. Apologize. Do Better.
    It doesn’t matter whether we, deep down, believe ourselves to be __________-ist or whether we intended our actions to be hurtful or _________-ist.

    It.Doesn’t.Matter.

    If the impact of our actions is the furthering of oppression, then that’s all that matters.

    So we need to listen, reflect, apologize, and work to do better in the future.

    What does that look like?

    Well, to start, we can actually apologize.

    I don’t know about you, but I am sick of hearing the ““I am sorry your face got in the way of my Frisbee! I never intended to hit you” apologies.

    Whether it’s Paula Deen weeping on TV or Alec Baldwin asking us to simply trust that he’s not a “homophobe,” those are not apologies.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    I think that theme is inherently offensive in and of itself and it is impossible to portray that theme in a way that does not offend.

    Given that corporation exploitation is the settings main theme, it's essentially asking them to not portray the main theme. Only non exploitative representation of gender fluidity allowed, in a setting that is about exploitation. Sorry but given that everything else in that setting is also being exploited, not exploiting that too is, in and of itself, segregation.

    I bet if they had done that, someone would have argued that was transphobic too.

    Do you get what I'm saying? It's really meta, circular and messy.


    edit: To be clear I think CDProjekt did not explain themselves well enough. I have no problem with the artists comment, but it is not enough of a response, and they should respond more. I agree with that post that there should be a video explaining the culture of Cyberpunk and how gender fluidity is handled in it. They also better bloody well criticise this shit in a non handwavey way in the game itself or I'm going to have real problems with it.

    But I also have a problem with how dismissive that post is of anything that could explain it, and how deeply they reach at several points to construct a negative narrative.

    For example, you just told me that intent is not good enough.

    Yet in that post some very deep reading was made of authorial intents to construct a negative argument, based on very little information.

    So reading deeply into someone's intent is okay when you are unhappy, but isn't ok to use when you are trying to defend yourself? That doesn't parse with me.

    That....look I understand this is a hugely emotional issue, and that I don't have the emotional engagement here so I'm looking at it from an outside perspective (I'm not interested in defending CDProjet, they didn't respond as deeply as they should have here. I don't deal with these issues every day like trans people do, so it doesn't hurt me like they do).

    But if someone pulled that on me if were were arguing about something more neutral, I'd tell them they were arguing in bad faith.

    Basically I think both sides of this have problems.

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  • AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    They have said several times that that ad is an example of how shitty the setting is that imagery like that that fetishizes/others a group of people is used to sell products. Which kind of negates the idea that in that setting people like that are so ubiquitous that no one not even them feels any harm from that imagery. But let's ignore that.

    In using that ad and a person cosplaying that ad in promotional materials they are selling their game using that imagery and it becomes part of our world. In our world that imagery and specifically the message that imagery sends is harmful, and there are many people saying directly that. It's not just an image of a transgender or genderfluid person. It's an image of a person with their genitals specifically highlighted. Combined with words implying that this state is abnormal and/or to be chosen on a whim. Combined with words that imply people like that are monstrous. And on. And on.

    CDPR becomes the corporation exploiting that imagery for profit.

    Aistan on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    Aistan wrote: »
    They have said several times that that ad is an example of how shitty the setting is that imagery like that that fetishizes/others a group of people is used to sell products. Which kind of negates the idea that in that setting people like that are so ubiquitous that no one not even them feels any harm from that imagery. But let's ignore that.

    In using that ad and a person cosplaying that ad in promotional materials they are selling their game using that imagery and it becomes part of our world. In our world that imagery and specifically the message that imagery sends is harmful, and there are many people saying directly that. It's not just an image of a transgender or genderfluid person. It's an image of a person with their genitals specifically highlighted. Combined with words implying that this state is abnormal and/or to be chosen on a whim. Combined with words that imply people like that are monstrous. And on. And on.

    CDPR becomes the corporation exploiting that imagery for profit.

    I get it now after reading this.
    Thankyou for taking the time to explain to my dense self.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I'm kinda interested in seeing what it's like with minimum augs. You walk into a dive and people at the bar nudge each, whispering about "that's Bootknife McGee, you gotta watch out for him". And when these rookies with boron-reinforced fingernails and hydraulic ears ask what kind of augs he's running to get that name, people just answer "he keeps a knife in his boot".

    Because that's it. Knife. Boot. The trick is to be creative.

    And because you aren't all tricked out, it throws people for a loop. Get checked out by some gang and all they find is a knife. Corpo scans you inside and out? Bootknife. And so they aren't sure if the whole thing is a joke or not, because you gotta have augs, right?

    But no. It's all in the bootknife.

    From the Johnny Mnemonic short story:
    I put the shotgun in an Adidas bag and padded it out with four pairs of tennis socks, not my style at all, but that was what I was aiming for: If they think you’re crude, go technical; if they think you’re technical, go crude. I’m a very technical boy. So I decided to get as crude as possible. These days, thought, you have to be pretty technical before you can even aspire to crudeness. I’d had to turn both those twelve-gauge shells from brass stock, on the lathe, and then load then myself; I’d had to dig up an old microfiche with instructions for hand- loading cartridges; I’d had to build a lever-action press to seat the primers -all very tricky. But I knew they’d work.

    Probably not a thing in the 2077 setting, since the Nomads seem to be on the low-tech side, but having Mr. Bootknife struggle to buy a simple sharpened piece of metal that doesn't have fifteen different bells and whistles on it would be amusing.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    Its a diy bootknife.

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    Oh my. The Chromaticore ad is in there (with light up enhancements and all). That isn't going to please some folks.

    . . .and yeah the winner was quite well deserved there.
    Aistan wrote: »
    On top of that chromanticore cosplay being in poor taste it's also a bad costume that I don't understand how it made it to their finals.
    For anyone curious about this, this thread has a pretty good summary[/url].

    This doesn't really reflect on the transphobia argument as presented in Resetera, but it is amusing to see that the same "Six Stages of Grief" in Resetera's thread on Microsoft's acquisition of Bethesda as in Reddit's "Games" subreddit.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 19
    Its a diy bootknife.

    3d printed. Hand (well, stone) sharpened.

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

    that was the authorial intent, that people who don't conform to the gender binary are so accepted in the world of cyberpunk that they're commodified by corporations like everyone else

    Moridin889
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Aistan wrote: »
    They have said several times that that ad is an example of how shitty the setting is that imagery like that that fetishizes/others a group of people is used to sell products. Which kind of negates the idea that in that setting people like that are so ubiquitous that no one not even them feels any harm from that imagery. But let's ignore that.

    In using that ad and a person cosplaying that ad in promotional materials they are selling their game using that imagery and it becomes part of our world. In our world that imagery and specifically the message that imagery sends is harmful, and there are many people saying directly that. It's not just an image of a transgender or genderfluid person. It's an image of a person with their genitals specifically highlighted. Combined with words implying that this state is abnormal and/or to be chosen on a whim. Combined with words that imply people like that are monstrous. And on. And on.

    CDPR becomes the corporation exploiting that imagery for profit.

    I get it now after reading this.
    Thankyou for taking the time to explain to my dense self.

    This is, I think, the core of the point.

    "If it's designed to be a terrible and distasteful advert working at the expense of trans women – something CDPR themselves tells us we should be fighting against – you can't then decouple it from the criticism to use frivolously for laughs or promotional material. Promoting someone taking that imagery, further accenting and highlighting the parts we're supposed to take issue with, all while laughing about it, renders that original intent meaningless. Put bluntly; when you're flying people out to take part in a video shoot for your promo and they're walking around with a fake neon penis representing the thing you claim to hate, how can we take any notion of nuance around trans people, issues and bodies seriously within both CDPR and Cyberpunk 2077?"

    If the ad was an example of a "bad thing" but then is used as a real world ad and then parodied and the "joke" that the company and fans are making is a transphobic joke in the real world, it's no longer something you can say was a criticism in game. It's a real piece of transphobia that you've included both in the game AND in your real world events.

    What is this I don't even.
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  • M-VickersM-Vickers Registered User regular
    I’ve just watched the recent video about vehicles, in 4K hdr - wow, does this look amazing.

    One month to go.

    I can’t even be bothered starting a new game of something else - I just want my Xbox to arrive, play AC-Vikings and Destiny 2 for 10 days, then sink myself into Cyberpunk.

    DemonStacey
  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

    that was the authorial intent, that people who don't conform to the gender binary are so accepted in the world of cyberpunk that they're commodified by corporations like everyone else

    Maybe by itself it isn’t that bad (although I can understand why it’s not great) but in the context of CDPR’s actions and attitude toward trans people, maybe the authorial explanation should be viewed with a dollop of skepticism.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

    that was the authorial intent, that people who don't conform to the gender binary are so accepted in the world of cyberpunk that they're commodified by corporations like everyone else

    Maybe by itself it isn’t that bad (although I can understand why it’s not great) but in the context of CDPR’s actions and attitude toward trans people, maybe the authorial explanation should be viewed with a dollop of skepticism.

    Nah it's probably true. It just doesn't really matter. It's not good enough.

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  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

    that was the authorial intent, that people who don't conform to the gender binary are so accepted in the world of cyberpunk that they're commodified by corporations like everyone else

    Everyone is fuel for the great machine of industry!

    Game looks pretty awesome, flicking through the various teaser videos of late. It's funny that during the day, it looks very GTAish, but at night it looks pretty cyberpunkish.

  • M-VickersM-Vickers Registered User regular
    I caved in, and preordered Cyberpunk via the Xbox store. I shall be monitoring it daily for predownload status.

    100mb so far, but I have high hopes.

  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    jammu wrote: »
    You would have been banned for trolling if you'd posted that in resetera. It is really weird place.

    The contest winner was the right choice IMHO, although I really liked the Chromelady too.

    Chromaticore was ok, but tried too hard to be carried by the shock value.

    Those thread rules don't give me any kind of confidence that a discussion is what they are interested in; I mean the thread title itself doesn't leave room for much else.
    I am not sure what it would take to suggest that there is a culture of transphobia if multiple instances of transphobia do not indicate a culture of transphobia. Do you expect the company to announce in a press release "hey, we have a culture of transphobia" or something (since if it merely tweeted it you'd blame the community head)? Or would you just blame whoever wrote the press release, and to really get evidence we'd have to have some sort of third party come in and run an investigation? I mean, given that 95% of the entire world is in a culture of transphobia, I basically need evidence that CDPR is an exception if I want to think they're not transphobic, and I hardly have seen any evidence like that!

    I think FOX NEWS has (had hopefully) a culture of sexual harassment. I think the US has a culture of violence. I think the legal profession has a culture of burnout. I do not think two posts from a social media account are enough to tar a company as having a culture of anything (maybe poor hiring practices). Is it possible that those tweets reflect a dark side of CDPR that they managed to keep incredibly well hidden; sure. It is just as likely (moreso I would say) that you had two Polish individuals trying to meme to a Western audience and failed spectacularly.

    The CHROMATICORE ad I think has more juice for criticism; not being trans I'm viewing it through the what I assume will be an equally critical lens on all facets of American/Western culture. I will admit that if this were something ethnic centered I might have less rope to give. My main complaint about the - so far - criticism is that it uses the two tweets above as a foundation with which to present this as further proof that CDPR as - as a matter of course - transphobic. Where I'm at, is that they are guilty of appropriation with a mix of ignorance - which isn't great - but falls short of the insidiousness inherent in the accusation from the thread on RE.

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  • Dr. ChaosDr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
    edited October 21
    Edit: too off topic.

    Dr. Chaos on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 20
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

    that was the authorial intent, that people who don't conform to the gender binary are so accepted in the world of cyberpunk that they're commodified by corporations like everyone else

    Maybe by itself it isn’t that bad (although I can understand why it’s not great) but in the context of CDPR’s actions and attitude toward trans people, maybe the authorial explanation should be viewed with a dollop of skepticism.

    Are there any transphobic statements or anything by Kasia Redesiuk out there? I remember looking earlier and couldn't find anything that wouldn't give me a reason to give her the benefit of the doubt

    override367 on
  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    I don't really see how this is an instance of transphobia.

    What I take away from that image is that gender fluid bodies are so completely normal in this universe that megacorporations feel completely comfortable targetting it with hypersexualised ads, in the same way as they target traditional gender norms with hypersexualised ads today.

    So what I took away from it (completely unconsciously, on first glance) wasn't "Haha look at the funny trans person" but instead "Oh hey, so in this world, gender fluid body types are normal"

    I do not see how that is a bad thing.

    that was the authorial intent, that people who don't conform to the gender binary are so accepted in the world of cyberpunk that they're commodified by corporations like everyone else

    Maybe by itself it isn’t that bad (although I can understand why it’s not great) but in the context of CDPR’s actions and attitude toward trans people, maybe the authorial explanation should be viewed with a dollop of skepticism.

    Are there any transphobic statements or anything by Kasia Redesiuk out there? I remember looking earlier and couldn't find anything that wouldn't give me a reason to give her the benefit of the doubt

    You don't have to directly give any transphobic statements to directly participate in transphobic/exploitative depictions of trans people. It would be nice if she acknowledged concerns by trans people (if she hasn't already).

    See, this whole thing is frustrating because according to CDPR, they understand that the Chromaticore ads are inherently bad, exploitative, and othering (read: transphobic). Then they turn around the use those ads, or depictions of those ads, or cosplayers uncritically depicting those ads, to advertise their game. They're telling us to think that using the ads is bad and then using the ads.

    But the fact of the matter is that transphobia is pretty damn common AND more accepted than other forms of LGBTQIA+ discrimination. You can be baldly transphobic as part of your comedy act, or be a rabidly transphobic children's author, and it doesn't seem to negatively impact you as much as if you were, say, badly racist or homophobic. Continuing to give people/corporations the benefit of the doubt when it comes to transphobia just reinforces to them that they don't have to actually change how they approach trans issues.

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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 20
    Assuming they're completely phobic also has the opposite effect. If they aren't they feel attacked and defensive, and are even less likely to change. They dismiss the concerns as an overreaction.

    There actually is a middle way! I know I know it feels like you shouldn't go easy on people. But you can't change things overnight. If you push too hard, they snap back in the other direction.

    I am skeptical of companies. I want them to do better.

    But I don't go tinfoil hat about it. That doesn't help either.

    Morninglord on
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  • CruorCruor Registered User regular
    edited October 20
    Assuming they're completely phobic also has the opposite effect. If they aren't they feel attacked and defensive, and are even less likely to change. They dismiss the concerns as an overreaction.

    There actually is a middle way! I know I know it feels like you shouldn't go easy on people. But you can't change things overnight. If you push too hard, they snap back in the other direction.

    If saying to someone "Hey, what you said/did was transphobic, maybe don't?" elicits them becoming even more publicly transphobic, then they were already privately transphobic. I don't buy the "calling people out for bad behavior will just make them reflexively worse!"

    Like, you can say and do transphobic things without being a transphobic person. Hell, in the past, before I educated myself about trans issues, I had said some hurtful and transphobic things. I was called out for them (and rightfully so!) and decided to better myself. This is true of racist language/actions and such as well. What makes you transphobic or racist, however, is when you are told that what you did was harmful and then you say "So what I'll do it again!"

    Cruor on
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  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited October 20
    Cruor wrote: »
    Assuming they're completely phobic also has the opposite effect. If they aren't they feel attacked and defensive, and are even less likely to change. They dismiss the concerns as an overreaction.

    There actually is a middle way! I know I know it feels like you shouldn't go easy on people. But you can't change things overnight. If you push too hard, they snap back in the other direction.

    If saying to someone "Hey, what you said/did was transphobic, maybe don't?" elicits them becoming even more publicly transphobic, then they were already privately transphobic. I don't buy the "calling people out for bad behavior will just make them reflexively worse!"

    Like, you can say and do transphobic things without being a transphobic person. Hell, in the past, before I educated myself about trans issues, I had said some hurtful and transphobic things. I was called out for them (and rightfully so!) and decided to better myself. This is true of racist language/actions and such as well. What makes you transphobic or racist, however, is when you are told that what you did was harmful and then you say "So what I'll do it again!"

    I'm talking about assuming (since when has assumption been acceptable?) the artist is transphobic here, not the way cdproket have used her image.

    There's nothing wrong with pointing out that someones behavior is transphobic. It's another thing to say "You and all your friends are complete transphobes, its ingrained in your culture, and you are bad wrong evil people"

    And I didn't mean that they would become more transphobic. I meant that they would just stop listening to you.

    It's like the difference between saying "please stop being a dick" and "you are a dick". One might get them to change! The other is likely to cause them to stop listening to you.

    Like, if that image had just rocked up in the game, and wasn't plastered across their advertising, and they didn't feature it in their cosplay contest as a finalist, but it had just rocked up in the finished project without being overtly mentioned, it probably wouldn't have been so much of a problem. It's how they're using this image that is the core problem here.

    Morninglord on
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
    CruorCommander ZoomMoridin889
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