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[WoW Classic] More full servers than Live.

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Posts

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    don't forget about the suppression room!

    Also rogues can disable the explosives the dark iron dudes leave behind in gnomeregan.

    I thought the reference was vs those or hunter traps not the suppression room

    Ladies.
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    In fairness

    requiring groups to also have a rogue and probably a warrior is not a great design.

    What's weird to me is like a streamer I watch playing classic touts that he likes you need to bring classes and not players and that is pretty much the opposite of what I like about MMOs. Then again I have liked when MMO's have gotten rid of traditional classes in general for group play.

    Like Star Trek Online's ship combat doesn't have the holy trinity at all, despite in theory having the 3 roles for it.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    In fairness

    requiring groups to also have a rogue and probably a warrior is not a great design.

    What's weird to me is like a streamer I watch playing classic touts that he likes you need to bring classes and not players and that is pretty much the opposite of what I like about MMOs. Then again I have liked when MMO's have gotten rid of traditional classes in general for group play.

    Like Star Trek Online's ship combat doesn't have the holy trinity at all, despite in theory having the 3 roles for it.

    That has not been my experience in classic. Prot paladin 5ever.

    Ladies.
    Reynolds
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    In fairness

    requiring groups to also have a rogue and probably a warrior is not a great design.

    What's weird to me is like a streamer I watch playing classic touts that he likes you need to bring classes and not players and that is pretty much the opposite of what I like about MMOs. Then again I have liked when MMO's have gotten rid of traditional classes in general for group play.

    Like Star Trek Online's ship combat doesn't have the holy trinity at all, despite in theory having the 3 roles for it.

    Needing to bring certain classes helps make people feel needed and important/powerful. Thats one of the main reasons people play games, to feel powerful. If everyone can do everything then no one is special, and the fantasy of playing the character kind of dies. Part of the problem with such specialized roles is that they dont often make a balanced amount of content for that role. Like mages are functionally better than warlocks in almost every way, but they cant banish garr adds and cant really tank the twin emp fight, and to lesser extent cant mana drain moam. Those are very very narrow specialties where a warlock is better. Kind of the same with trap things with rogues, there just arent enough of them. Luckily rogues are beast in pvp. I think where stuff like prot paladin and other hybrid specs fall off is that there generally arent enough places they can shine, or their advantage isnt good enough. Like paladin aoe against undead, just isnt crazy enough damage to take another pally over any other dps for stratholme.

    I think class differences is extremely important. Especially since i like pvp. In retail every class has a spell interrupt, some form of 5s+ single target cc, and an aoe form of cc. Along with various movement abilities and everyone has tons of self healing/shields.Its completely terrible dealing with that for wvery class. It makes it so pvp is wntirely dependent on which classes are tuned to be strong in a given patch. At least in classic each class has limitations to its movement/cc and people need to leverage what their class is good at.

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  • exisexis Registered User regular
    Jasconius wrote: »
    Kevin is a really cool and chill guy, and he's definitely from the hippy old school Ultimate/D&D crowd.... which I'm sure drives retail players insane.

    When you hear him talk about the game, and the thought processes that went into why things are the way they are, you realize pretty quickly that their goal was never "balance"... it was hardly even on the radar. Kevin almost rejects the notion that there even needs to be balance. His view on the game is very very different, and you can see that evident in vanilla.

    BC and wotlk are when Jeff & crew started to have a bigger voice, and the differences are clear. That's ok. They're all good games.

    but if you're looking at frikken 1.x paladins and trying to figure out why they don't do _______ as well as _______ then you're looking at it with an entirely different set of glasses than the people who made it

    just wait for BC!

    He also made the point during those interviews that he was not happy with the state of prot and (particularly) ret paladins, but that they were prioritised lower than other classes for rework, because holy paladins were getting raid spots. They didn't have unlimited time so the focus needed to be on at least giving people a reason to play one of the specs of a class, before trying to make every spec of every class viable.

    My paladin is coming up on 40 at the moment and I am definitely starting to feel the limits of ret in terms of there just not being anything interesting in the moment-to-moment gameplay. In context of interviews with the class designer it totally makes sense that they just didn't get this right but it wasn't quite bad enough to deserve being fixed at the time.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 10
    Eh. Every class was 'getting spots in raids,' it's just that Melee DPS scales way the fuck better with the vanilla game design than casters ever could. I have no sympathy for a hell of their own design, as a lot of those paladins who healed in raids hated the shit out of it.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Edge cases gonna edge case

    Those are not edge cases.

  • exisexis Registered User regular
    Eh. Every class was 'getting spots in raids,' it's just that Melee DPS scales way the fuck better with the vanilla game design than casters ever could. I have no sympathy for a hell of their own design, as a lot of those paladins who healed in raids hated the shit out of it.

    Well, they acknowledged there were problems but had to be pragmatic about which problem they fixed first. I don't blame them for trying to prioritise. I guess it's easy to say "they should have just gotten it perfect the first time", but since that's not how the world works I'm not sure I see the point of that stance.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    exis wrote: »
    Eh. Every class was 'getting spots in raids,' it's just that Melee DPS scales way the fuck better with the vanilla game design than casters ever could. I have no sympathy for a hell of their own design, as a lot of those paladins who healed in raids hated the shit out of it.

    Well, they acknowledged there were problems but had to be pragmatic about which problem they fixed first. I don't blame them for trying to prioritise. I guess it's easy to say "they should have just gotten it perfect the first time", but since that's not how the world works I'm not sure I see the point of that stance.

    I'm saying they were just using whatever excuse to prioritize the shit they wanted to prioritize.

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  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    It is also way, WAY easier to make other specs work with the expansion reset. Most people wouldn't want to have spent like 2 raids gearing up a playstyle then suddenly another comes about and they feel the need to go back and catch up with another set. At least back in Vanilla. But, TBC comes and its basically a gear reset? Perfect time to have a bunch of new specs be viable.

    Not to mention most of those specs NEEDED new skills to work, which was also something they had decided by that point would be happening in a new expansion and not just with a patch.

    It made way more sense to do it when they did it. This also had the benefit of them doing a very good job of it. Like or hate the TBC gameplay, but they fixed a lot of the issues making many classes one dimension in great ways.

    Fiatilexis
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    Vanilla dev just did not share the modern philosophies that 1) every spec ought to do something useful and 2) it ought to do its things about as well as comparable roles. Once you let go of those constraints a lot of things about it make more sense (or at least, are more understandable)

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    they also didn't necessarily think that the group comp of 1 tank 1 heal 3 DPS for dungeons was non-negotiable at the time

    if you think about the paladin toolkit as a 5th man in dungeons, able to offtank a couple mobs, throw extra heals if the healer is strained, and contribute DPS in between, they make a lot more sense as a class. Paladin is probably the class most likely to turn a dangerous situation from a wipe into survival, but if the dungeons are going smoothly and under control they don't bring anything that great.

    InfidelTurambarInfamyDeferreddrunkenpandarenSorcha Ravenlock
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Nah, seal system was just fucking stupid on so many levels and speaks volumes to some really lazy ass and shitty design.

    -Let's say, they really did have an issue with the crusader buff taking up valuable debuff slots (ignoring that they gave the class a shitty seal that still had the fucking debuff). They could have simply cut it.
    -Didn't want holy paladins doing strike (we'll ignore how every other healer had dps abilities). Move crusader strike deep enough in ret to make it a non-option. Give prot it's own strike out of reach. Let holy strike be because even paladins needed to level solo. Also since other healers had dps options and didn't seem to have issues getting that when they heal, they heal, don't dps if there is healing that needs to be done. The ones that claimed they were there to heal and then started not healing because they wanted to dps, usually got kicked.
    -Paladins going oom. Just put a cooldown on holy strike if it was that bad. Maybe add in seal of wisdom, honestly, only seem like an issue for prot and ret, since holy didn't want to waste global on dps if healing needed to be done.
    -Didn't want crusader to do full damage and always used after 5 holy strikes. Either have holy strike add a buff that stacks to five or Christ, just dust off the code used for feral and rogue finishers. Holy strike generates combo point and only ret and prot have finishers to spend those. Look at that, now there's an excuse to have crusader strike and whatever prot as a finisher, to not use mana and maybe let it refund it.

    Or honestly, they probably could have left the strike system as it was before release because players that wanted to heal ad paladins would have figured out real quick that dps ooms them and ret and prot would have figured out how to manage well enough. At least the two specs would have been far more interesting than what they ended up being. Probably the best refutation of the vanilla design for ret is that it ended up with a fucking strike system anyways.

    I can only hope that the idiots who were like "you know what would be some compelling gameplay? tabbing through raid frames to apply 5 minute buffs," had or are still having a hard time getting a role of influence on any major game because it's absolutely fucking stupid design. It's kind of amazing someone thought that was good design period. I don't care for healing, but I can see how that can be interesting because it's more than "well, buff is about to expire, time to tab through everyone that is still alive and give them a blessing."

  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    Mill wrote: »
    Maybe add in seal of wisdom

    there is a seal of wisdom... its..... its in the game

    bowen
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    i'm still surprised they never went the eq2 route where the buffs are "on" while you are grouped with someone who has them. you do have to recast them after death but they don't (mostly) have timers. Keep timers on things that should be short term but fort, mark, kings, etc...that should never had timers.

  • MillMill Registered User regular
    No, I meant, if they were trying to actually fix the mana issues, while keeping the strike system. Add in seal of wisdom instead of the whole shit seal system (this is being generous and assuming they gave a shit about the issues of not enough buff slots). So ret would have holy strike, crusader strike and a mana regen buff called seal of wisdom. Honestly, just going to call bullshit on mana being the reason they dropped the shitty seal system on everyone two weeks out because let's be honest, holy didn't really have issues with it if they did the right setup and holy wouldn't be in melee range anyways because of the risk involved.
    Pailryder wrote: »
    i'm still surprised they never went the eq2 route where the buffs are "on" while you are grouped with someone who has them. you do have to recast them after death but they don't (mostly) have timers. Keep timers on things that should be short term but fort, mark, kings, etc...that should never had timers.

    Yeah, I never really got the point of finite duration buffs. Throwing up buffs on people is probably the most tedious aspect of gameplay, when it's literally select person, cast buff. Again, I don't think people would have been nearly as pissed off about rets state if it kept the strike system because from what I got the damage was decent (pure dps was still better), even if that system had horrible mana problems. At the very least it was interesting, probably more interesting than mages spamming just one spell. Heck, people wouldn't have minded support class, if they had a setup that made it interesting. I think a large chunk of devs probably failed to get why healing is fun for someone because it's more than just clicking raid frames. The player has to monitor health of multiple players, remove debuffs when they can and they aren't just cycling through people in the same order. Blessing pretty much came down to cycling through people, unless they were dead, up until they added the greater blessing.

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    Shamans are so much fun. I love running dungeons with a tank that can hold aggro while I'm using rockbitter. I'm not sure which to use when I can't use rockbitter though, frost seems best because of runners.

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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    they also didn't necessarily think that the group comp of 1 tank 1 heal 3 DPS for dungeons was non-negotiable at the time

    if you think about the paladin toolkit as a 5th man in dungeons, able to offtank a couple mobs, throw extra heals if the healer is strained, and contribute DPS in between, they make a lot more sense as a class. Paladin is probably the class most likely to turn a dangerous situation from a wipe into survival, but if the dungeons are going smoothly and under control they don't bring anything that great.

    Or

    We can make dungeons more awesome with aoe tanking woo!

    Ladies.
  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Flametongue or Windfury are usually the go to weapon buffs for Enhance Shaman. Rockbiters extra aggro wasn't loved back in the day.

    crimsoncoyoteBullhead
  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    edited September 10
    It might be a bit of an edge case, but in 5mans, I liked having a shaman as a single target offtank.

    Everyone focused the shaman's target, and rockbiter kept most people from ripping aggro. Meanwhile I held the 5 or 6 other mobs to the side while the team single dps'd things down.

    It just depends on what you have for a roster when you go dungeon diving. Hell, I had a rogue buddy that stacked so much dodge he could dodge offtank brd or scholo. Swingy hp, but he did it.

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  • Red RaevynRed Raevyn because I only take Bubble Baths Registered User regular
    I was getting into a bit of a power trough with my warrior while I pushed for 30. Didn't really wanna buy new greens since I'd be doing Gnomer at that level, but my smattering of level 12 (lol) to 20 greens were starting to feel their age. For a while fighting one thing my level at a time was fine, but two would probably be interesting. Mostly fought things 1-2 levels below when I could.

    Well after a long and eventful session getting my whirlwind axe (soooo much wPvP, it was great fun) I feel like the warrior fantasy. I was getting run down by 3 people my level and the hunter in the lead's pet cat caught up to me. I turned around and got a heroic strike crit, chunking about 60% of it's health (450+ was the biggest number I've seen since returning to classic by a lot), then quickly killed it. I can fight nearly whatever PvE mobs I want! When I upgrade my armor I'm going to have at least a few levels of feeling downright OP being carried by this early axe acquisition axequisition.

    KasynInfamyDeferred
  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    That was actually a setup I saw suggested for paladin tanks, but was the opposite. Have a paladin aoe tank most of the mobs, and have a warrior in defensive with a dps setup burn the priority target. It plays into the paladin strengths well, especially because they can just drop consecrate and use ret aura and pretty much that holds all aggro. So little mana use. Which honestly sounds super fun to me.

    There are a lot of things I would LOVE to do with a static dungeon running group in Vanilla. Like a set of 5 people that were willing to have set characters to only dungeon together with maybe 1 or 2 nights a week. I would LOVE that.

  • BeastehBeasteh THAT WOULD NOT KILL DRACULARegistered User regular
    Got to 40 and one of my guilds officers mailed me the gold for my mount which was really nice of him

    He is somehow the highest levelled and also Mr Moneybags AH Sniper

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User regular
    I got my mount by selling runecloth bags and then as soon as I stopped the market dropped like a rock and the price of bags plunged down practically an entire gold per bag.

    So that timing was pretty good. Also I got the feralas wand on my priest yesterday despite only being level 43. 10+ DPS increase for my wand so that'll be nice. That quest is super easy to do, just a lot of travel time and then some mob evasion since they're all 49~ up by the staff of equinex part.

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  • crimsoncoyotecrimsoncoyote Registered User regular
    I'm up to 40g and I've got 5 levels to go. I've been having some decent luck selling some greens I've been getting, so that's helped. Hoping the auctions I put up last night sold.

    Luckily I don't need to buy any more skills until 38 (sin strike, but I can likely put it off for a couple levels) or 40 (stealth, evis, safe fall). Hopefully I'm able to manage getting the next 60g or so by 40.

  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    im way short with 6 levels to go. i don't feel like i've got anything close to good luck on greens, even conserving massively on skill trains... idk

    i think even if I played perfectly and got every AH sale where I wanted it, i would still be a good 40-50 gold short

  • StragintStragint Do Not Gift Always DeclinesRegistered User regular
    I'm leveling 26 with 7g. I don't think I'm gonna get my mount at 40 but at least I'm a shaman.

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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    8-) got that free mount so it's all good for me

    Ladies.
    ReynoldsThawmusBullheadDhalphirInfidelAridhol
  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Since I am leveling entirely through grinding I have had a ton of money and green drops already at 14. The skill costs shot up but I bought them all with money to spare. Also that greater enchanting wand at 13 was just an absurd upgrade. Does more damage than mind blast but for free.

  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    I don't remember noticing how badly Wands out-class EVERY STINKING DPS SPELL back when I played Vanilla, but it sure is obvious now.

    crimsoncoyoteKai_San
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I borrowed a bunch of money from @Bizazedo to get my mount immediately at 40.

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  • Unicron80Unicron80 Registered User regular
    edited September 10
    Haven't had any luck finding guild officers for The Ded Boyz on Fairbanks Horde. I'm Hawkbeard. Just started this week. Howdy.

    Edit: Probably need to add some thoughts - the nostalgia is real. I haven't played WoW consistently since Cataclysm. Beta tested WoW, played release and into TBC before a long break. Man it's crazy how fun Classic has been even just doing solo intro stuff. I guess you can go home.

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  • StericaSterica Rad Registered User, Moderator mod
    Fairchild wrote: »
    I don't remember noticing how badly Wands out-class EVERY STINKING DPS SPELL back when I played Vanilla, but it sure is obvious now.
    I recall every leveling guide suggesting improved wands if the class had it.

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Fairchild wrote: »
    I don't remember noticing how badly Wands out-class EVERY STINKING DPS SPELL back when I played Vanilla, but it sure is obvious now.

    It's because of how poorly implemented casting classes were with regards to gear, especially during leveling.

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  • YoungFreyYoungFrey Registered User regular
    I sure remember level a shadow priest and finishing off the last 1/3 of every mob with a wand so my mana would recharge. Plus it was worth getting a shadow wand since it dealt more damage with Shadow Weaving.

  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Fairchild wrote: »
    I don't remember noticing how badly Wands out-class EVERY STINKING DPS SPELL back when I played Vanilla, but it sure is obvious now.

    It's because of how poorly implemented casting classes were with regards to gear, especially during leveling.

    Everyone wants int, but all it does is give you maybe 0.5% more chance to crit.

    If you burn through enough of a mana bar that more mana would save you, you were doing it wrong. I went stam just because of PVP and it was like godmode. So many people with no health could be easily destroyed in a single CC.

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Ya priests kind of live or die by their wands. Their spells are all pretty expensive so spamming them destroys your mana. I basically shield, mind blast, swp and wand until whatever is dead. Ive been basically disc spec so far as well for an easier time in dungeons. And wand spec is in the tree too.

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  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    Fairchild wrote: »
    I don't remember noticing how badly Wands out-class EVERY STINKING DPS SPELL back when I played Vanilla, but it sure is obvious now.

    It's because of how poorly implemented casting classes were with regards to gear, especially during leveling.

    That, and the maddening amount of spell resistance by everything, even that little Murloc three levels below you.

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Fairchild wrote: »
    Fairchild wrote: »
    I don't remember noticing how badly Wands out-class EVERY STINKING DPS SPELL back when I played Vanilla, but it sure is obvious now.

    It's because of how poorly implemented casting classes were with regards to gear, especially during leveling.

    That, and the maddening amount of spell resistance by everything, even that little Murloc three levels below you.

    Wand attacks can be resisted as well.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    Ya priests kind of live or die by their wands. Their spells are all pretty expensive so spamming them destroys your mana. I basically shield, mind blast, swp and wand until whatever is dead. Ive been basically disc spec so far as well for an easier time in dungeons. And wand spec is in the tree too.

    I toss in a mind flay. But now that I have most of the SM gear (Whitemane refuses to drop her hat) and have shadowform I just hit stupid hard.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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