As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options

[DnD 5E Discussion] This is the way 5E ends. Not with a bang but a gnome mindflayer.

1757678808199

Posts

  • Options
    DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    I've always felt like the D&D concept of faith and religion was kind of silly when you had actual Gods that actually (and frequently) made their presence and power known and could straight up just talk to you. Almost all "traditional" views of worship and faith would be nonsensical in a world where magic exists and your priest can honestly say "Oh yes once a day I commune with Melora. I know what she looks like, she speaks to me, this is what she wants me to do, and here is one of the ways I can display the power she has given me. Watch as I create food and water out of literally nothing."

    Like imagine what church in our world would look like if Jesus actually just showed up at services once in a while and was like "Okay here's the deal, this is what I'm about, this is what I want you to do, oh and these people over here can now walk on water and create things out of nothing."

    Now I could see a system in D&D where deities derive power not from faith but from religion, where they have an incentive to be active in the lives of mortals because it inspires religious practice. If they're aloof and silent no one knows about them or cares about their influence and thus wouldn't worship them. But if they're around all the time and their clerics and paladins are out there flinging around ghost hammers and shooting divine laser beams? That'll get some attention.

    That's not the case in D&D though

    there are very few gods that directly talk to people, even fewer people they directly talk to, and when they show up in avatars they are basically fragments of the true being

    Even after communing telepathically with Mielikki, in the afterlife, Drizzt's wife only had a pretty solid gist of her designs

    Even the priestesses of Lolth don't really know whats up with Lolth most of the time, the only time they talked to her directly was the Time of Troubles when she was cast down and walked as a mortal

    Clerics get broad strokes from their gods: "help those people", "hold a sick ass set of olympic games", "raze the village and eat their hearts", etc, but they aren't getting 1 on 1s with them

    K. I guess when I read something like "When gods walk the world, clerics channel divine power, evil cults perform dark sacrifices in subterranean lairs, and shining paladins stand like beacons against the darkness, it’s hard to be ambivalent about the deities and deny their existence." in the Player's Handbook I just have a different interpretation of that.

  • Options
    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    I think looking at Mycenaean Greek culture is probably about the best example we have. Not, like, the historical culture, but rather the myths we have from that era, like the Illiad/Odyssey and the works of Hesiod.

    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • Options
    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Denada wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    I've always felt like the D&D concept of faith and religion was kind of silly when you had actual Gods that actually (and frequently) made their presence and power known and could straight up just talk to you. Almost all "traditional" views of worship and faith would be nonsensical in a world where magic exists and your priest can honestly say "Oh yes once a day I commune with Melora. I know what she looks like, she speaks to me, this is what she wants me to do, and here is one of the ways I can display the power she has given me. Watch as I create food and water out of literally nothing."

    Like imagine what church in our world would look like if Jesus actually just showed up at services once in a while and was like "Okay here's the deal, this is what I'm about, this is what I want you to do, oh and these people over here can now walk on water and create things out of nothing."

    Now I could see a system in D&D where deities derive power not from faith but from religion, where they have an incentive to be active in the lives of mortals because it inspires religious practice. If they're aloof and silent no one knows about them or cares about their influence and thus wouldn't worship them. But if they're around all the time and their clerics and paladins are out there flinging around ghost hammers and shooting divine laser beams? That'll get some attention.

    That's not the case in D&D though

    there are very few gods that directly talk to people, even fewer people they directly talk to, and when they show up in avatars they are basically fragments of the true being

    Even after communing telepathically with Mielikki, in the afterlife, Drizzt's wife only had a pretty solid gist of her designs

    Even the priestesses of Lolth don't really know whats up with Lolth most of the time, the only time they talked to her directly was the Time of Troubles when she was cast down and walked as a mortal

    Clerics get broad strokes from their gods: "help those people", "hold a sick ass set of olympic games", "raze the village and eat their hearts", etc, but they aren't getting 1 on 1s with them

    K. I guess when I read something like "When gods walk the world, clerics channel divine power, evil cults perform dark sacrifices in subterranean lairs, and shining paladins stand like beacons against the darkness, it’s hard to be ambivalent about the deities and deny their existence." in the Player's Handbook I just have a different interpretation of that.

    What I mean by that is that the followers still can and do misinterpret their deities and ascribe their own personal motivations with divine purpose (like in Tomb of Annihilation, I doubt the goodly gods meant for their paladins to charge into a suicide mission in a zombie jungle while acererak eats their souls, despite the paladins insisting thats what they want)

    which is further muddled by the gods themselves being petulant cliquey highschoolers with omnipotence

    override367 on
  • Options
    RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    I've always felt like the D&D concept of faith and religion was kind of silly when you had actual Gods that actually (and frequently) made their presence and power known and could straight up just talk to you. Almost all "traditional" views of worship and faith would be nonsensical in a world where magic exists and your priest can honestly say "Oh yes once a day I commune with Melora. I know what she looks like, she speaks to me, this is what she wants me to do, and here is one of the ways I can display the power she has given me. Watch as I create food and water out of literally nothing."

    Like imagine what church in our world would look like if Jesus actually just showed up at services once in a while and was like "Okay here's the deal, this is what I'm about, this is what I want you to do, oh and these people over here can now walk on water and create things out of nothing."

    Now I could see a system in D&D where deities derive power not from faith but from religion, where they have an incentive to be active in the lives of mortals because it inspires religious practice. If they're aloof and silent no one knows about them or cares about their influence and thus wouldn't worship them. But if they're around all the time and their clerics and paladins are out there flinging around ghost hammers and shooting divine laser beams? That'll get some attention.

    That's not the case in D&D though

    there are very few gods that directly talk to people, even fewer people they directly talk to, and when they show up in avatars they are basically fragments of the true being

    Even after communing telepathically with Mielikki, in the afterlife, Drizzt's wife only had a pretty solid gist of her designs

    Even the priestesses of Lolth don't really know whats up with Lolth most of the time, the only time they talked to her directly was the Time of Troubles when she was cast down and walked as a mortal

    Clerics get broad strokes from their gods: "help those people", "hold a sick ass set of olympic games", "raze the village and eat their hearts", etc, but they aren't getting 1 on 1s with them

    K. I guess when I read something like "When gods walk the world, clerics channel divine power, evil cults perform dark sacrifices in subterranean lairs, and shining paladins stand like beacons against the darkness, it’s hard to be ambivalent about the deities and deny their existence." in the Player's Handbook I just have a different interpretation of that.

    What I mean by that is that the followers still can and do misinterpret their deities and ascribe their own personal motivations with divine purpose (like in Tomb of Annihilation, I doubt the goodly gods meant for their paladins to charge into a suicide mission in a zombie jungle while acererak eats their souls, despite the paladins insisting thats what they want)

    which is further muddled by the gods themselves being petulant cliquey highschoolers with omnipotence

    this is a good point. and bringing it back around to what I was trying to get at about good vs evil gods I don't think that distinction is what matters. the gods are personalities. they are human but blown up larger than life. rather than approaching it as "is this god evil" I would approach it like any NPC: "what do they want to achieve" -> "how to they achieve that goal" then infer good vs. evil based on how they go about reaching that goal. that also clears up the issue of who would worship an "evil" god. answer: someone who either shares the same goals or someone whose goals are being helped by that god (ie: wealth, power etc...).

    why does someone worship the god that's trying to wipe out all life and replace it with the undead? either they also want to or they gain something by their worship that furthers their own goals.

    Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
  • Options
    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    I tend to make gods more or less focused on their domain with only a few of them being truly good or truly evil (depending on if they have any real negatives for the world vs having not having any redeeming qualities)- Chauntea? Unequivocally good. Zehir? Unequivocally bad. Bahamut? Asmodeus? Okay now we're complicating things

    As I understand it, you pretty much worship a god whos afterlife you want, or if you know you're a fucking awful person, find one who will get you a sweet deal in the afterlife regardless, or one who will get you immediate material rewards (like immortality).

    Once had a player who played a human redemption paladin who used to be a cleric of Therzidun, because after losing his whole family and going on a killing spree, was pretty sure hell awaited him, or some other afterlife, and therzidun promised *oblivion* which is what he wanted (having no idea which afterlife his family ended up in, if any). Eventually getting over his pain and realizing that nihilism wasn't the answer

    he got eaten by a mimic at level 3, very sad, cool character, the soul monger ate him, got his wish in the end :)

    override367 on
  • Options
    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    This is why I like the idea of a campaign setting where the pantheon is really just a bunch of angels and archangels that each have 1-2 domains they specialize in, and no true gods, or at least none we're aware of (like Diablo). You still get the divinity (and indeed, at least as much meddling) from the divine, but it takes much, much less effort to square the circle on these sorts of things.

    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • Options
    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Penguin's silly dnd creatures:

    Boulder Toads.

    These small toad like critters are notable mostly for their method of attack and/or defense: Launch themselves at you, and in mid air spontaneously generate a giant rocky shell around themselves.

    Often found on their backs, incredibly dizzy. (Boulder toads are not smart, nor roll resistant)

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • Options
    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    You reminded me of a childhood memory.

    I made three creatures when I was a child, after playing the first Super Mario Bros and wanting to add baddies to the game:

    - Gorilla Ball. A gorilla that can roll into a ball and launch itself at you. I don't know why it's not called a Ball Gorilla.
    - Fake Mushroom Cyclofrog. The name I came up for this has been lost to time, but basically, it's a giant, two legged, flat-bodied, one eyed frog. It can camoflauge as a mushroom platform (as in the ones in select Mario stages) by closing its eye and raising a leg high into its body. Hapless fools walking on its head/body would be surprised by a mouth opening and devouring it.
    - Evil Tornado. A stormy looking tornado with mean looking eyes, two arms, and - get this - booted feet. Why would I think a tornado needed feet and boots?

    (The Gorilla Ball can be a CR3 beast/aberration creature. The Cyclofrog, depending on size can go from CR1/2 to CR 4, but it's more afraid of adventurers than they are of it. The evil tornado is... basically an air elemental.)

    Wearingglasses on
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    I just came up with a couple of concepts for my yuan-ti focused campaign that I'm kinda proud of:

    - The secretive gnome chronurgist Fortenk the Time Collector is being manipulated by an agent of Zehir. The yuan-ti is interested in traveling to the floating city of Draconia months before it was destroyed by the Chroma Conclave, establishing a sect of Zehir worshiping dragonborn, and getting the converts help to ensure at least a piece of Draconia remains aloft in the present to serve as a floating fortress and wyvern aerie. The time-traveling slaad lord Norsar the Many, who had previously become fond of Fortenk and granted him unique time-related abilities (of dubious usefulness), takes notice and is displeased with the exploitation of his friend. He wants to find allies to take back in time and aid Fortenk, and as a reward Norsar will honor one future request for travel to and from the past.

    - A special red steel called orium is produced in Vudra, the Abyssal layer of Shaktari, the queen of the mariliths. Weapons made from orium eapons can generate the poison called serpent's venom and can enhance other injury poisons, but they are also capable of transforming into awakened giant poisonous snakes to unexpectedly attack undesired wielders.

    - A yuan-ti follower of Zuggtmoy has been found out by the worshipers of Zehir. Rather than be executed, the Zuggtmoy worshiper is forced to devise a strain of deadly fungi that specifically targets drow for use in clearing out Lolth's followers in the Underdark. Zuggtmoy is actually pleased with this development as she considers Lolth a rival of hers.

    - Baelzra, a minor archdevil and daughter of Mammon, was exiled to Avernus after it was discovered she possessed a way to negate the Nine Hells' claims to the souls of mortals who had entered into Infernal contracts (for a fee, of course). It was believed Baelzra would quickly be destroyed on the battlefield, either by invading demons or devils who viewed her as an abominable traitor to the Hells. The yuan-ti who had taught Baelzra her traitorous talent, Seghulerak, saved Baelzra from certain doom by summoning and binding her. Baelzra now dwells in the den of vice known as the Avenue of Chains, located in the Shadowfell city of Gloomwrought. She is protected by hired mercenaries, chain devils, and yuan-ti, all of which allow her to continue to ply her trade of freeing mortals from their obligations in Infernal contracts. Baelzra splits her profits between herself, Seghulerak, and even her father Mammon, the latter of which she hopes will use his influence to cut down on the number of devils looking to hunt her down and enforce the Hells' brand of justice. Seghulerak knows that Baelzra resents being forced to pay the yuan-ti priestess for her continued aid and takes multiple precautions to prevent the devil princess' disloyalty.

    Hexmage-PA on
  • Options
    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    You reminded me of a childhood memory.

    I made three creatures when I was a child, after playing the first Super Mario Bros and wanting to add baddies to the game:

    - Gorilla Ball. A gorilla that can roll into a ball and launch itself at you. I don't know why it's not called a Ball Gorilla.
    - Fake Mushroom Cyclofrog. The name I came up for this has been lost to time, but basically, it's a giant, two legged, flat-bodied, one eyed frog. It can camoflauge as a mushroom platform (as in the ones in select Mario stages) by closing its eye and raising a leg high into its body. Hapless fools walking on its head/body would be surprised by a mouth opening and devouring it.
    - Evil Tornado. A stormy looking tornado with mean looking eyes, two arms, and - get this - booted feet. Why would I think a tornado needed feet and boots?

    (The Gorilla Ball can be a CR3 beast/aberration creature. The Cyclofrog, depending on size can go from CR1/2 to CR 4, but it's more afraid of adventurers than they are of it. The evil tornado is... basically an air elemental.)

    The tornado needs boots because its never a nice day when it goes outside and it has an overprotective mother.

    The cyclofrog is a really good monster for fungus forrests and/or magical swamps. Monster Manual good even

    wbBv3fj.png
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Another bit of brainstorming for my yuan-ti focused Exandria campaign:
    A secret alliance has been struck between the Zehir-worshiping yuan-ti of the Vanguard of Zannad and certain Cerberus Assembly members of the Dwendalian Empire. The Vanguard stages a major attack on the city of Gloomwrought in the Shadowfell, one so seemingly overwhelming that the Cerberus Academy is contacted to lend aid. The Academy mages defeat the invaders, whose leaders are surprisingly quick to retreat (and whose forces are largely filled by unwitting conscripts that were captured and forcibly transformed into yuan-ti). The Fane of Shadows, a previously existing temple in Gloomwrought devoted to Zehir, is spontaneously destroyed by the living city itself as its adherents relocate via secret portals to the Mausoleum of Ssra-Tauroch in a more remote region of the plane.

    This accomplishment gives the Academy a foothold in Gloomwrought. Tensions rise in the city as the local Tenebrous Cabal mage school supported by Gloomwrought's nobility is overwhelmed by the Cerberus Academy, which finds support from the Erathis worshipers at the Aposkos temple who had long been unhappy with the state of the city.

    The Academy's primary goals are to use Gloomwrought as a new staging ground in the war against the Kryn Dynasty of Xhorhas (which is especially easy in Gloomwrought, a living city that changes itself to suit its most influential occupants and to oppress unfortunate) and to utilize the city's mysterious chronurgical clocktower in researching dunamancy.

    The Vanguard of Zannad themselves view a Gloomwrought controlled by Dwendalian interests as one that will help take care of the Kryn Dynasty for them and be easier to conquer later. The major yuan-ti city of Sariss off the coast of Wildemount's Blightshore is close to multiple Shadowfell planar bleeds, and it could be possible to summon demonic allies from the mariliths' home Abyssal layer of Vudra through the nearby Cauldron Sea of Blightshore and bring them to Gloomwrought as well. Dwendalian influence in Gloomwrought would also likely increase the city's human population, creating more potential yuan-ti converts, as well as drive out the undead and non-Zehir worshiping cultists that the city's government has traditionally permitted or turned a blind eye to.

    I'm particularly proud of this. It allows me to use various elements of the Wildemount campaign setting, including the central war between the Dwendalian Empire and the Kryn Dynasty, incorporates the 4E setting of Gloomwrought fairly seamlessly by examining how the Dwendalian Empire's values (such religious restrictions) would conflict with Gloomwrought's (which is very permissive), and uses the geography and features of Blightshore as presented in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount to justify a way to get both the yuan-ti and their demonic allies to Gloomwrought. Plus it brings in an obscure region of the Shadowfell mentioned only in 4E's Open Grave as well as referencing events in the 3E Ghostwalk setting, where a yuan-ti army attempted to attack a city where the living and ghosts mingle only to be driven off by powerful mages.

    My plan is to have the party encounter Gloomwrought earlier on and become accustomed to its original state (including learning about the open Zehir worshipers at the Fane of Night) before having the mock battle between the Cerberus Academy and the Vanguard (I'd like to set things up so that the party already has an established Cerberus Academy ally so that the players themselves might be the ones to suggest calling the Cerberus Academy for aid). Afterwards, the party will have to decide if the changes happening to the city are for the better and whether they believe rumors and accusations from members of Gloomwrought's nobility that the yuan-ti attack was staged so that the city could be effectively occupied by the Cerberus Academy and the Dwendalian Empire.

    Hexmage-PA on
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    BTW, I imagine some people here might be interested to know the Pathfinder people have released a public apology because their next adventure path assumes by default the PCs are detectives. They're promising to make slight adjustments before release to add support for gaming groups that don't want to play as law enforcement officials.

  • Options
    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Hexmage-PA wrote: »
    BTW, I imagine some people here might be interested to know the Pathfinder people have released a public apology because their next adventure path assumes by default the PCs are detectives. They're promising to make slight adjustments before release to add support for gaming groups that don't want to play as law enforcement officials.

    Literally had to sit and debate with myself whether or not playing a Paladin was in poor taste right now. I tend to play my Paladins more as noble warrior-knights, but at the end of the day I decided Paladins are just a little too cop and I didn't want to risk making anybody uncomfortable

    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • Options
    valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    I think many paladins would have issues with the town guard throwing their weight around.

    asxcjbppb2eo.jpg
  • Options
    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I think many paladins would have issues with the town guard throwing their weight around.

    Yeah, i mean, i can see the association of paladin = cop, but that's also what i'd think of as a failure state for a paladin (At least if you're running them as an avatar of good, you know?)

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • Options
    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    edited June 2020
    At the same time, "alignment: Lawful Bastard" is a trope for a reason.

    I've definitely had players with characters who "became a Paladin to slay the evil orcs." And that's the summation of their background

    Tox on
    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • Options
    WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Here's a tweet I encountered, in response to the question, "What is your most controversial TTRPG take?"



    And it reminded me of an observation I've had about disability-oriented content in D&D, but that probably applies across most if not all major RPG systems. That observation being, disability-oriented content exists, but instead of answering, "What do disability and accessibility look like in this world?" they choose to focus on the (IMO, less interesting) question, "But what if...the character WASN'T actually disabled because MAGIC or PROSTHETICS or BLINDSIGHT or some shit?"

    But then, I'm not sure what the former content would look like in practice. A folio of disabled NPCs? An "accessibility" domain for Clerics? Campaign setups for disabled PCs?

  • Options
    DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    But in a world where magic healing exists and a person can go from literally dying to right as rain just by sleeping for 8 hours, how much disability would there actually be? Thinking of D&D here of course. Other systems that have lasting injuries and such would certainly be a very different story.

  • Options
    evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    also, given the, errr, size and lethality of most monsters in d&d I don't agree with the premise.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • Options
    SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Denada wrote: »
    But in a world where magic healing exists and a person can go from literally dying to right as rain just by sleeping for 8 hours, how much disability would there actually be? Thinking of D&D here of course. Other systems that have lasting injuries and such would certainly be a very different story.

    The 5e game in in right now the DM is using "life is hard" rules (not the real name, i can't remember it).
    Long rest let's you use as many hit dude as you want, and you recover half of any expended at the end. Short rest let's you use up to half your hit dice. At end of combat you can use one hit dice and this is called "take a breather". The only time a long rest gets you full HP back and all expended hit dice is 24 hours of rest and low level activity with any sleep being done in a real bed (not in a sleepsack out in the wilderness).

    It has really turned up the value of HP and most of it's are not at full most of the time. I'm playing a shirtless barbarian and am the only "tank" in the party, so I'm pretty much a spell slot sponge.

    As a fellow DM i appreciate what she is going for. As a player, it's pretty harrowing.

    Smrtnik on
    steam_sig.png
  • Options
    WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    But in a world where magic healing exists and a person can go from literally dying to right as rain just by sleeping for 8 hours, how much disability would there actually be? Thinking of D&D here of course. Other systems that have lasting injuries and such would certainly be a very different story.

    I mean I dunno, society in the real world doesn't seem to prioritize providing equipment/treatment for a pretty wide variety of conditions that could easily be assisted/treated, due to either a lack of resources or a lack of give-a-damn. I imagine any D&D setting would have a similar social affliction.

  • Options
    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    At the same time, "alignment: Lawful Bastard" is a trope for a reason.

    I've definitely had players with characters who "became a Paladin to slay the evil orcs." And that's the summation of their background

    oh for sure, but that's the sort of player i would grump at and go "no, try harder". It's sortoff what i meant by a failure state - quite how "Slay the evil orcs" (Which uh, i'm pretty sure we've touched on how problematic evil races are) maps to actually being a Paladin (or what i envisage as being a paladin - which is generally someone who lives up to and actually embodies their ideals) is uh... issueful.

    But then again, i'm also not a fan of DnD's aliment system in the first place (there's a reason i aint said shit about it in my setting yet <.<)

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • Options
    AmarylAmaryl Registered User regular
    Religion in DnD still makes all the sense in the world, in the end gods grant boons to their followers and not anybody. Religion is simply structured devotion. So the church of Thyr, is specifically set up, to cater to Thyr, do the stuff he likes, prepare the food as he approves off, find the correct words to give prayer to. Figure out what makes Thyr act, and what he's apathetic to. The clergy and priests are out there not only fulfilling Thyr's wants as acts of devotion, they're also using the system of the church to teach new devotees. It's not so much about having faith in the god; though faith is part of it. if you follow this structure you have faith that in time of need Thyr will help his devotees, but that's not guaranteed as the system is built up to gratify the God, in the hope of getting boons, and getting his grace bestowed upon you, its not necessarily a contractual obligation between you and god, that god is bound by.

    Some gods will be vain towards the anthill in their name. Others will look at their anthills and exploit them for their own pleasure. Other's just won't care and will choose to do whatever to whomever strikes their fancy.

    Then there are the religions of gods that just go willy nilly aiding and fucking up people for the hell of it, where the religion is based around figuring out which people get the attention of the gods and then promote them to the clergy so that they can benefit society. but the majority of the populace will still have to have faith that the gods will do "the right thing" and not send a plague of locus.

    In the end religions and clergies and its people have a parasitic relationship on the attention of gods, for good or ill.

  • Options
    GlalGlal AiredaleRegistered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    But in a world where magic healing exists and a person can go from literally dying to right as rain just by sleeping for 8 hours, how much disability would there actually be? Thinking of D&D here of course. Other systems that have lasting injuries and such would certainly be a very different story.
    I'm pretty sure losing limbs and such requires some very high level spells to heal. Like, "good luck affording this" high. So, I guess in that respect D&D is just like real life. Suck it up peasants, no resurrection for you.

  • Options
    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    Regenerate is a 7th level spell available to clerics when they hit 13th level - it can regrow lost limbs and such. 13th level people are like national-level famous, I estimate, so it tracks.

  • Options
    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    WACriminal wrote: »
    Here's a tweet I encountered, in response to the question, "What is your most controversial TTRPG take?"



    And it reminded me of an observation I've had about disability-oriented content in D&D, but that probably applies across most if not all major RPG systems. That observation being, disability-oriented content exists, but instead of answering, "What do disability and accessibility look like in this world?" they choose to focus on the (IMO, less interesting) question, "But what if...the character WASN'T actually disabled because MAGIC or PROSTHETICS or BLINDSIGHT or some shit?"

    But then, I'm not sure what the former content would look like in practice. A folio of disabled NPCs? An "accessibility" domain for Clerics? Campaign setups for disabled PCs?

    Basically a stereotypical pirate crew, though really something like WFRP is your setting there.

    That said it is kind of the same thing as assuming everyone has a hero profile in D&D, rather than having to do the original 3D6. In a world with a lot of disability and a quasi medieval setting - you get a lot of beggars and retired one armed soldiers. It's not like the real world was particularly peaceful due to the lack of orcs.

    Though perhaps there's a bit more to work with if it's a post BBEG apocalypse and the PC's are from a people who are almost extinct to the point that every last life is vital (Tahn the weaver can't weave anymore after losing his hands to boiling oil in the seige, but he's the only one left who knows the secrets of his craft - same as Jacq the blind smith). Something almost Battlestar Galactica esque with a wagon train of refugees escorted by the last of the pretorian guard fleeing the persuing horde.

    Feels more like something that would be it's own thing rather than D&D (if each PC is one of the surviving soldiers, but also bears the scars of that last, failed, final battle - and overcoming those are as much part of the plot as keeping your people safe from the horde.)

    Tastyfish on
  • Options
    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    One of the worlds I thought about was a few years after 75+ or so the war between the Teiflings and Dragonborn where the Dragonborn disappeared after winning but that was one of the many mysteries I was putting into it
    Magic fell out of favor because of how devastating the war was {it was easy to see the scars upon the land from it} The Teiflings were still around but without an empire they once had so they are shunned by those that were left . Things like there are some monsters and not because of how the war went
    The reason I did magic fell out of favor was both the rise of a cult with the humans and as I said how devastating some of the spells used were. This is where I also got the idea for rival adventures as there are groups on the frontier that will go into the dragonborn and teifling cites to see what magical goodies are left {as there are few magic users on the frontier but cantrips and spell books are really hard to get. I also wiped out certain races because of the war or the fallout like he rise of the human cult/religion
    Alchemy was more of the prevalent thing

    I just really did nothing with it other than make a notebook at work of ideas I had for it as people really did not want to play a world with limited to rare magic

  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Strange coincidence the disability topic should come up, because I'm in the midst of putting together a set of tables for determining what sorts of mundane and magical afflictions NPCs I generate might have.

    Here's a little bit of what I have together.
    D20
    1 - 15 Roll Once
    16 - 19 Roll Two Times
    20 Roll Three Times

    D100
    1 - 40 None
    41 - 60 Lingering Injury
    61 - 70 Disease
    71 - 80 Madness
    81 - 85 Poison
    86 - 90 Curse
    91 - 93 Monster Effect
    94 - 96 Spell Effect
    97 Fleshwarped
    99 Damned
    100 Possessed

    Lingering Injuries (d8 +d12)
    2 Lost eye
    3 Lost leg or foot
    4 - 7 Limp
    8 - 11 Minor Scar
    12 - 13 Broken Ribs
    14 - 15 Internal Injury
    16 - 17 Horrible Scar
    18 - 19 Festering Wound
    20 Missing Arm or Hand

    Madness (2d10)
    1 - 8 Indefinite
    9 - 18 Long-Term
    19 - 20 Short-Term

    I'm still trying to figure out the result values for the tables, though, so that afflictions or disabilities that I imagine would be rarer don't come up as often on table rolls.

    I'm also planning to include spell and monster caused effects:
    Blue Slaad Chaos Phage
    Bulezau Disease
    Dryad Fey Charm
    Gas Spore Spores
    Hydroloth Steal Memory
    Rakshasa Curse
    Red Slaad Slaad Egg
    Succubus Charm
    Revenant Vengeful Tracker
    Vampire Charm

    My thinking in doing all this is that 1) it makes NPCs more unique, 2) it subtly reinforces these NPCs have their own lives the players aren't always around for (a recurring NPC might show up next time with a new scar or something), 3) it allows players the opportunity to do good deeds like offering to cast restorative magic or investigate how someone came under a rakshasa curse, and 4) it gives me more tools for inspiration.

    For example, here's me rolling on my tables right now:
    - I rolled a 15 on the first table, so the NPC has the chance of having a single affliction. However, I rolled a 17 on the second table, so they suffer no affliction.
    - For the second PC I got a 7 on the first table, and a 48 on the second, meaning they have a lingering injury. I get a result of a 15 on that table, so the NPC has an internal injury when the party encounters them.

    As always when I undertake something like this I worry that someone else has already done it better and I'm wasting my time! :biggrin:

    BTW, one of the magic items in Xanathar's Guide to Everything and Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, the Ersatz Eye, is a magical false eye that the user can see through as a normal eye.

    Hexmage-PA on
  • Options
    Jam WarriorJam Warrior Registered User regular
    Any religious system with multiple provably real gods is nothing to do with faith and all to do with favour.

    You do the thing your chosen god likes in the hopes they will reward you and aid your endeavours.

    MhCw7nZ.gif
  • Options
    ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    An LG Paladin would likely be a protestor / activist in our current environment. People focus too much on the Lawful aspect of Lawful Good, assuming that an LG Paladin would just follow any law without questioning it. I'd think an LG Paladin would fight against laws that are unjust or unfair, as unjust laws / systems should be replaced. I get that people dislike D&D alignment, I know I do if it's used mechanically (like Paladins losing powers on alignment shift), but I do like it as a quick rundown of a character's moral compass. Backstory and roleplay are the true arbiters of a character's morality, but I like having a rough idea of what a character aspires to be.

    I had an idea a long time ago to have an NPC Paladin be the leader of a rebellion group trying to overthrow an evil kingdom, and still would be LG. They'd just decided that in the conflict between Lawful and Good, Good was more important. They'd want to rebuild the kingdom to be more fair and equitable to the people, establishing Law in a just way.

  • Options
    SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    I have always had a house rule in my games that a Paladin does not have to be lawful good. Rather, a Paladin does have to be within one step of the alignment of his chosen diety.

    And disabilities in a RPG are a slippery slope. In a world with magical healing, the only reason to have a disability is as a choice to suit the story. Either a player choice or a DM choice for an NPC. Its absolutely a valid choice if one want to RP that aspect of a character. But I do not think the entire damage system needs to be changed to factor in disabilities. And even then, the only disabilities that would be reflected are physical trauma ones. Things like the myriad degenerative diseases or genetic deficiencies from birth or whatever the full range of disability would encompass is not something that WOTC could possibly codify in the game system. And if they tried, they would inevitably leave something/someone out.

    Steelhawk on
  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Zomro wrote: »
    An LG Paladin would likely be a protestor / activist in our current environment. People focus too much on the Lawful aspect of Lawful Good, assuming that an LG Paladin would just follow any law without questioning it. I'd think an LG Paladin would fight against laws that are unjust or unfair, as unjust laws / systems should be replaced. I get that people dislike D&D alignment, I know I do if it's used mechanically (like Paladins losing powers on alignment shift), but I do like it as a quick rundown of a character's moral compass. Backstory and roleplay are the true arbiters of a character's morality, but I like having a rough idea of what a character aspires to be.

    I had an idea a long time ago to have an NPC Paladin be the leader of a rebellion group trying to overthrow an evil kingdom, and still would be LG. They'd just decided that in the conflict between Lawful and Good, Good was more important. They'd want to rebuild the kingdom to be more fair and equitable to the people, establishing Law in a just way.

    So I just posted this in the SE++ TTRPG thread, but I thought I'd repost it here since it concerns a setting location that would definitely benefit from protests and fairer laws.
    I've been rereading the D&D 4E setting book The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond recently. The city guard and government of Gloomwrought is so evil and corrupt that there's actually a rival "villain" organization trying to stir up enough chaos in Gloomwrought that benevolent adventurers will hopefully be drawn to the city by their antics. The idea is once the party is actually in Gloomwrought the "villains" will approach the party, explain they were just trying to draw the attention of heroes, and explain how fucked up the status quo in Gloomwrought is.

    Even beyond the incredibly corrupt guards, most factions in Gloomwrought are outright bastards. Not even the nobility trust the guards that much, leading most of them to employ a mercenary company called the Crimson Sashes (said company will also secretly arrange for wealthy-looking newcomers to the city to be assaulted so that a Crimson Sash representative can offer their protection services). The Tenebrous Cabal teaches the children of the nobility evil magic and how to assassinate enemies. One of the wharfmasters, a half-elf named Kamourn, has a Vecna worshiping necromancer collect corpses to reanimate as free labor (individuals upset that their deceased loved ones are being forced to load and unload ships as zombies have to pay a fee to have the zombie put down). The local temple of the Raven Queen is run by extremists who want to ban worship of all other gods, and the brother of the Raven Queen's high priestess is the head of a shadar-kai racial supremacist gang called the Ghost Talons that wants to drive all other races out of Gloomwrought. There's a flourishing temple to Zehir, god of assassination, operating out in the open as the temple of Erathis, goddess of civilization, crumbles from supernaturally advanced disrepair. Food grown in the Shadowfell is bland and unfulfilling, but the rich are able to eat good food imported from the natural world thanks to a noble house that jealously controls a portal to their garden in the natural world. About the only faction that isn't despicable is the Legion of Risen Blades, an organization of intelligent undead led by a skull lord named Turaknal whose purpose is to self-police the city's undead population so that they'll be allowed to continue their existence in Gloomwrought.

    The ruler of Gloomwrought, Prince Rolan the Deathless, has a limited ability to control the structure of the city. Rolan once dealt with a peasant uprising by causing the poor part of the city to physically break off from the mainland into several islands in an event called the Sever. Then he installed bridges from these islands to the mainland part of the city equipped with multiple portcullis gates, traps, and gargoyles to prevent future uprisings.

    Gloomwrought is a living city, by the way, that actually rewards the privileged by magically generating estates for them to live in (so the rich don't even have to pay to build their mansions). Struggling merchants, in contrast, might be able to sense the building housing their business shrinking and crumbling with them in it whenenever they fail to make a sale.

    TL;DR, Gloomwrought is a living city that supernaturally rewards the rich and oppresses the poor (to the point that the city magically builds mansions for the wealthy and caused the poor part of town to break off from the mainland to keep them separate), is policed by an incredibly corrupt city guard that the nobility don't even trust (instead preferring a mercenary company's services) has a wharfmaster who claims the recently deceased to reanimate as free labor and charges next of kin who want their zombified loved one put down, and features both a fanatical sect of Raven Queen worshipers that wants to ban worship of all other gods and a shadar-kai racial supremacist organization.

    Hexmage-PA on
  • Options
    GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    .
    Denada wrote: »
    K. I guess when I read something like "When gods walk the world, clerics channel divine power, evil cults perform dark sacrifices in subterranean lairs, and shining paladins stand like beacons against the darkness, it’s hard to be ambivalent about the deities and deny their existence." in the Player's Handbook I just have a different interpretation of that.

    The Gods actually don't walk amongst the faithful at this point at least on Faerun; something about the sundering made it so that they don't make direct appearances anymore, though they can empower an individual with chosen status which gives them a shard of the god's actual being and thus incredible power... though if they meet an unfortunate end then that shard dies with them and thus weakens the god. Also of interesting note, chosen aren't neccesarily aligned with the god or part of their faithful; Farideh was a warlock who wound up being chosen by asmodeus despite her being a good and decent person.

  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    I will say that a funny thing about Paizo's statement is that it implies groups of vigilantes with no official accountability or oversight who very often resort to violence and ignore due process (ie many adventuring parties aka "murderhobos") are not the problematic part. It's not the actions themselves that are of concern, but whether the PCs are part of a law enforcement organization that is supposed to enforce a standard of behavior but instead turns a blind eye. So long as the PCs are vigilantes and answer to no one there's no problem.

    Of course, I understand we don't have a large scale societal problem with vigilantes in the real world, as far as I'm aware of.

    EDIT: Part of this is due to some players wanting to treat D&D like GTA or something, where NPCs are largely just ragdolls to shoot or run over for fun, while others want to pretend every NPC is a real person with real feelings.

    I remember a comic from an old print issue of Dragon magazine where one character wanted to tie-up an orc and take him to the nearest settlement for a trial. The other party members protested having to deal with escorting the orc all the way to civilization. Once they reach the gates of a settlement the character who wanted to turn the orc over to the authorities for a trial explained his intentions to a guard. The guard incredulously replies "A trial?! For an orc?!"

    I guess my point is should Good player characters be non-lethally subduing humanoids, escorting them to a settlement, and submitting them to the authorities for a trial? Do they need to prepare for such possibilities by bringing along transportation and supplies to keep the prisoners fed? What if the authorities would likely be biased? Does the party just leave the unconscious antagonists alone and go on their way? What if said antagonists wake up only to resume their evil ways and attack others who can't defend themselves?

    Hexmage-PA on
  • Options
    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited June 2020
    Glal wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    But in a world where magic healing exists and a person can go from literally dying to right as rain just by sleeping for 8 hours, how much disability would there actually be? Thinking of D&D here of course. Other systems that have lasting injuries and such would certainly be a very different story.
    I'm pretty sure losing limbs and such requires some very high level spells to heal. Like, "good luck affording this" high. So, I guess in that respect D&D is just like real life. Suck it up peasants, no resurrection for you.

    Bruenor, a dwarven king with essentially infinite wealth, walked around with one eye for a good number of years because clerics that cast regenerate don't grow on trees or often make house calls, eventually getting a cleric of moradin to mosey from another dwarven city to heal him

    Later they hired one to cast resurrection but he had to travel from Silverymoon and was not cheap

    I'd imagine most such people congregate to the halls of devotion in the great cities like waterdeep, silverymoon, baldur's gate, etc, and in such places with one or two regenerate spells available a day, with populations of over 100,000 (not to mention travelers coming to seek high temple services), unless you're Really Important, or Really Rich, you aren't getting a regeneration

    At least how we've handled it, because there is precious little guidance, people like Nat in dragon heist COULD have gotten her hearing healed (only a second level spell or a paladin bonk away), but she ran away from the temple orphanages preferring the freedom of being an urchin, and thus not granted such charity unless she's willing to use her new hearing to listen to the good word of INSERT_GOD

    ...we may be projecting bad experiences with church charity onto D&D but, why not

    override367 on
  • Options
    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular



    Well, looks like some progress is being made, but of course there's a lot more to go.

  • Options
    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular


    Well, looks like some progress is being made, but of course there's a lot more to go.

    God, why did he have to use yuan-ti as an example when I've been working my ass off planning a yuan-ti focused campaign?

    Googling it, I see that the name "yuan-ti" is supposedly derived from an older form of Romanization of Chinese characters meaning "pliable body". The same site also notes Chinese editions of D&D refer to yuan-ti as shé rén, which just means "snake people".

    Also, other than the name, yuan-ti don't really seem Asian-inspired to me. They're way more Aztec flavored, at least in material I've seen.

  • Options
    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    Posting this here and in the SE++ thread, but I'm once again asking y'all to do my homework for me and give me some ideas for a one-shot game to run this Friday! I was wanting to do something besides the usual "DM tries their damnedest to murder the fuck out of the party" thing we normally do for one-shots, and I was also thinking of switching from FR to Eberron for this game. Maybe like a murder mystery sort of thing set on a speeding lightning rail train car that is going a loooooooong distance? If they're too fast, I could instead set it on an airship. But either way, I want the players to be trapped and forced to investigate (maybe not forced, but otherwise they'll just have a nice journey ignoring the murder and then disembark once they arrive lol)

    JtgVX0H.png
  • Options
    The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    I cant actually find anything on Yuan-ti as yellow peril. Not saying it's not the case, just i would have expected a cursory search to throw up something. I dont actually know enoguh about them (Snake people, they're bad,. hey have multiple different body plans around the snake people concept) to try and draw any conclusions.

    ---

    @Darmak - if it's eberron, why not Mad Scientist's Lab Assisstants? Gives a good reason to be Trapped In the LAAAAAAAB, plenty of reason for traps, weird shit to investigate, and other fun!

    ---

    Shifting tracks, the disability stuff got me thinking about what sort of accessibility and industries there could be in Terror Incognita catering to such. Presumably, with a lot of shipwrecks happening, disabling injuries are pretty common. More common than even high level magic is going to be able to keep up with easily.

    Monferrina also clearly will have some tradition of looking after disabilities- a huge % of their population were freed slaves, and the Aeternum were the sort to maim slaves to make a point (Hell, there goto marker for slaves of their own people, which were the majority of their slaves, was cropped ears). Or just because they could (I really, really do not wanting people going Oh the Aeternum were cool like the romans weer. No, the romans fucking sucked, and so did the Aeternum)

    Missing tongues, missing ears, missing eye(s) seems like the sort of thing Aeternum slaves would have had inflicted most often. So monferrina probably has a tradition of Braille, as well as sign language. Sign language would doubly make sense as a culture built on ex-slaves - ways to pass messages when your masters were around without them knowing.

    Serenity - has to have a big tradition of prosthetic, right? Shipwrecks are not necessarily going to be fun things, and people loosing limbs in those seem likely. Not that every wreck would be traumatic, but it seems likely. What other stuff could i be missing here that would be cool? Wheelchairs seem like a gimme, and have a strong historical tradition. It'd also fit win with the steading and recovery aspect parts of Serenity are supposed to have.

    I like the idea that the Last Citadel has incorporated lifts, slings, pulley,s various ways to help out people who arent agile like most saturs move around, or satyrs with injuries

    Ideas hate it when you anthropomorphize them
    Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
    Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
    Switch: 0293 6817 9891
  • Options
    WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Darmak wrote: »
    Posting this here and in the SE++ thread, but I'm once again asking y'all to do my homework for me and give me some ideas for a one-shot game to run this Friday! I was wanting to do something besides the usual "DM tries their damnedest to murder the fuck out of the party" thing we normally do for one-shots, and I was also thinking of switching from FR to Eberron for this game. Maybe like a murder mystery sort of thing set on a speeding lightning rail train car that is going a loooooooong distance? If they're too fast, I could instead set it on an airship. But either way, I want the players to be trapped and forced to investigate (maybe not forced, but otherwise they'll just have a nice journey ignoring the murder and then disembark once they arrive lol)

    I don't have any more detail than this, but the first "solution" to the murder mystery that pops into my mind is, "The victim isn't the victim, he's the victim's identical twin who nobody knows about. The person you THINK is the victim is faking his own death because reasons."

This discussion has been closed.