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Shaking hands, or: A question of tolerance

[Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctorNorwayRegistered User regular
10 August a right-wing extremist attacked a mosque in Oslo, Norway. Thankfully, he botched the attack, no one was seriously injured, and he is now awaiting trial.

This is not about that.

22 August Crown Prince Haakon visited the mosque to show his support. There was a minor amount of embarrassment when one of the muslim women the Crown Prince was there to meet didn't want to shake his hand, but instead wanted to greet him by placing her hand over her heart.

71519732.jpg?imageId=71519732&width=1024&height=615
Pictured: A faux pas – but by whom?

Given the circumstances, everyone handled it fine after a moment's of confusion. The woman later explained to the press that, in her interpretation of Islam, women and men should not shake hands or touch each other (unless very close family or they're married).

This isn't the first time the issue has been in Norwegian media. In 2018 a muslim substitute teacher's contract was not renewed because he refused to shake hands with women. Another muslim man applied for a job at the Postal Service and was called in for a job interview, but when he made clear that he for religious reasons could not shake hands with a woman, the interview was cancelled and he did not get the job.

I won't bore you with the regressives' take on the issue. But the progressives av been split about the issue:
  1. We should tolerate their religious beliefs.
  2. This is an equal rights issue, and it is both disrespectful and anti-feminist to refuse to shake hands with a member of the opposite sex.

Personally, I lean towards the second viewpoint. But, despite my disdain for religions in general, I understand the first argument.

So, what do you guys think? And how should the issue be dealt with as a society?

Sic transit gloria mundi.
«13456

Posts

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    I generally reserve condemnation for beliefs that hurt others. This particular expression of that belief doesn't, so whatever.

    (The core understanding behind it is very fucked, but if she's not pushing that on others eh)

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  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    I doubt either of them want thinkpieces on how one or the other is wrong.

    Nobody was offended, they apparently resolved a greeting amicably

    There's no way of knowing what kind of greeting someone would like in advance so you calibrate to do something non-offensive, and then adjust as needed

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    I generally reserve condemnation for beliefs that hurt others. This particular expression of that belief doesn't, so whatever.

    (The core understanding behind it is very fucked, but if she's not pushing that on others eh)

    If you refuse to shake hands with only female coworkers or customers is that not inherently creating a hostile work environment?

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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  • TehSpectreTehSpectre Registered User regular
    If a person's religious views do not hurt others, I do not fault them for said views. Not shaking hands hurts no one.

    Shaking hands is a type of expected physical contact that not everyone wants to do anyway.

    Abolish handshakes.

    9u72nmv0y64e.jpg
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Like this is what multiculturalism is.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    If it crosses into discrimination in a professional setting it should be vigorously attacked in that setting.

    Otherwise do what you want.

    Edit: Professional is just an example. I'm sure there are other situations that it is harmful, but they need to be addressed individually.

    dispatch.o on
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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I think basically every society has standards about how men and women should behave physically around each other that dont apply to people of the same sex and that a lot of what passes for multiculturalism is just wanting everyone of all skin tones and religions to behave like white western liberals.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
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  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

    I think it is fucking absurd to thing you ever have the right to touch someone.

    This machine kills threads.
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    This practice is quite common in orthodox Jewish communities

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Wrong thread

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    The Crown Prince should have been prepared by his entourage with the customs of the community he was visiting. It's the responsibility of the visitor, especially a royal delegate, to learn and adapt to such customs.

    This ultimately isn't a big deal, everybody worked it out. Very minor faux pas and everybody is cool about it.

    Of course, this doesn't stop people who have an political bone to pick with either Muslims or the Norwegian from making hay over it, but we also don't necessarily have to give exaggerated outrage more attention than what little it deserves.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    In my opinion it is worse to shake someone's hand when you don't want to than to not shake someone's hand when you want to

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Greeting someone with a gesture other than a handshake seems like the easiest and least burdensome accommodation that anyone could conceivably request.

    While I can see the concern towards the underlying belief due to its rigidity solely along gender lines, that does not necessarily suggest an inherent belief in inferiority/superiority along those lines, and if it does that would manifest in other ways that would be more justifiable in choosing not to hire someone. For instance, refusing to be alone with someone from the opposite sex. Which is not a reasonable accommodation. If it extends to refusing to touch someone even when there is a need for health and safety (injury, choking, heart attack) then that crosses over to a legitimate concern. Otherwise it is appears to simply be placing what seems like an unusually high degree of implicit value on touch with regard to bodily autonomy, but that isn't really a problem. Just don't shake their hand.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

    This is one side of the coin.
    Like this is what multiculturalism is.

    This is the other.


    Given the hard-fought (and far from won) battle for equal rights, I cannot deny that accepting unequal treatment of men and women on religious grounds feels very wrong.

    Norway has a state church. A long (ultimately successful) battle was fought to allow female priests, gay weddings, etc. Apparently the struggle continues.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    Kristmas Kthulhu
  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2019
    redx wrote: »
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

    I think it is fucking absurd to thing you ever have the right to touch someone.

    I'm not saying I have a right to touch someone. I'm saying discriminating who you shake hands with based on sex, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc is an inherently bigoted stance.

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  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    This social mishap in which no one was harmed does seem like custom made bait for the outrage engine from lots of internet tribes.

    It seems like the sort of thing that only exists because it was signal amplified by bad actors.

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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Islamophobia, masquerading as concern about feminism?

    Shocking. This has never happened before, ever.

    I have serious problems with fundamentalist religions with regressive values (and to a lesser extent, religion in general) but the fact that it's always brown people being singled out 'for their own good' says it all.

    Kamar on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

    I think it is fucking absurd to thing you ever have the right to touch someone.

    I'm not saying I have a right to touch someone. I'm saying discriminating who you shake hands with based on sex, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc is an inherently bigoted stance.

    This seems right up there with "its sexist to only hold doors for women"

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    Lovely
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    redx wrote: »
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

    I think it is fucking absurd to thing you ever have the right to touch someone.

    I'm not saying I have a right to touch someone. I'm saying discriminating who you shake hands with based on sex, religion, or race is an inherently bigoted stance.

    That, for me, is the crux of the issue.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    I think basically every society has standards about how men and women should behave physically around each other that dont apply to people of the same sex and that a lot of what passes for multiculturalism is just wanting everyone of all skin tones and religions to behave like white western liberals.

    For example, it's pretty weird and sexist that we have men's and women's bathrooms

    PNk1Ml4.png
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  • TehSpectreTehSpectre Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    I think basically every society has standards about how men and women should behave physically around each other that dont apply to people of the same sex and that a lot of what passes for multiculturalism is just wanting everyone of all skin tones and religions to behave like white western liberals.

    For example, it's pretty weird and sexist that we have men's and women's bathrooms
    Abolish urinals.

    9u72nmv0y64e.jpg
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    Islamophobia, masquerading as concern about feminism?

    Shocking. This has never happened before, ever.

    I have serious problems with fundamentalist religions with regressive values (and to a lesser extent, religion in general) but the fact that it's always brown people being singled out 'for their own good' says it all.

    Exactly. As I said before this is also standard practice in many Jewish communities. As is women covering their heads. But the outrage seems reserved for Muslims.

    Kamar
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    I think basically every society has standards about how men and women should behave physically around each other that dont apply to people of the same sex and that a lot of what passes for multiculturalism is just wanting everyone of all skin tones and religions to behave like white western liberals.

    For example, it's pretty weird and sexist that we have men's and women's bathrooms

    But see, the bathrooms are separate, but equal.
    I'm being facetious.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    Most men's rooms have 3 urinals for every stall. More if it's an airport or big venue. I'm down with getting more stalls and privacy, but the nice part about urinals is you can stand back a bit and not have to touch anything.

    Perhaps we should invent a non-touch from of greeting.

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    Islamophobia, masquerading as concern about feminism?

    Shocking. This has never happened before, ever.

    I have serious problems with fundamentalist religions with regressive values (and to a lesser extent, religion in general) but the fact that it's always brown people being singled out 'for their own good' says it all.

    Exactly. As I said before this is also standard practice in many Jewish communities. As is women covering their heads. But the outrage seems reserved for Muslims.

    In fairness, here in Norway, the Christians are largely tamed. There are literally no observant Jews in Norway*, and other than muslims, the other religious minorities are miniscule.

    * Minor anecdote:
    The local university hosted a conference where one of the attendees was an American orthodox Jew. The conference organizers called the local synagogue (the world's northernmost one, in fact) and asked if there was anything special that should be done and if there was anywhere to get kosher food. The reply was that there were no one keeping kosher in Norway, and the closest kosher store was in Germany.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    “Tamed?”

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  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    Islamophobia, masquerading as concern about feminism?

    Shocking. This has never happened before, ever.

    I have serious problems with fundamentalist religions with regressive values (and to a lesser extent, religion in general) but the fact that it's always brown people being singled out 'for their own good' says it all.

    Exactly. As I said before this is also standard practice in many Jewish communities. As is women covering their heads. But the outrage seems reserved for Muslims.

    This seems like whataboutism. People are critical of evangelicals, ultra-orthodox Jews, and other fundamentalists all the time.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Most men's rooms have 3 urinals for every stall. More if it's an airport or big venue. I'm down with getting more stalls and privacy, but the nice part about urinals is you can stand back a bit and not have to touch anything.

    Perhaps we should invent a non-touch from of greeting.

    We have a few.

    There's the 'sup' chin raise.

    Or, more formally, the nod of 'Hello, stranger who also failed to avoid eye contact'.

    Kamar on
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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    VishNub wrote: »
    “Tamed?”

    They allow women priests, gay priests, and officiate gay weddings. They are officially for legalized abortion.

    They have been brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • Yes, and...Yes, and... Registered User regular
    I think it's sexist not to shake someone's hand because of their gender.

    This is one side of the coin.
    Like this is what multiculturalism is.

    This is the other.


    Given the hard-fought (and far from won) battle for equal rights, I cannot deny that accepting unequal treatment of men and women on religious grounds feels very wrong.

    Norway has a state church. A long (ultimately successful) battle was fought to allow female priests, gay weddings, etc. Apparently the struggle continues.

    Surely the answer is that if you're at work, or looking for work in the public service or with a significant public-facing component, and have restrictions on how you can interact with one class of people, you just treat everyone according to that special standard. Can't shake hands with women at work? Don't shake hands with men at work either. In private, do you. Problem solved.

  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    I would be ecstatic if people stopped shaking hands, I don't ever like doing it but feel pressured to do so because it's a standard greeting.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    I think if youre trying to concoct some system by which everything people of a different culture does aligns with your tastes, beliefs, and values, youre going about things kind of wrong.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    I think basically every society has standards about how men and women should behave physically around each other that dont apply to people of the same sex and that a lot of what passes for multiculturalism is just wanting everyone of all skin tones and religions to behave like white western liberals.

    For example, it's pretty weird and sexist that we have men's and women's bathrooms
    Abolish urinals.

    A bunch of places in NC responded to the bathroom bill by just going unisex. It’s a little weird at first to be in a club bathroom where it’s just everybody waiting for a stall, but you get used to it.

    -TalTehSpectreKristmas KthulhuSmrtnikKayne Red Robewebguy20
  • TehSpectreTehSpectre Registered User regular
    VishNub wrote: »
    “Tamed?”

    They allow women priests, gay priests, and officiate gay weddings. They are officially for legalized abortion.

    They have been brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
    Use of the word "tamed" makes me feel uncomfortable when speaking about people/religion.

    In fact, it's really gross.

    9u72nmv0y64e.jpg
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    “Tamed?”

    They allow women priests, gay priests, and officiate gay weddings. They are officially for legalized abortion.

    They have been brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
    Use of the word "tamed" makes me feel uncomfortable when speaking about people/religion.

    In fact, it's really gross.

    It kind of gives away the game re multiculturalism

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    VishNubBloodsheedLanlaorn
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    You shouldn't have to touch anyone if you don't want to, full stop.

    This can exist simultaneously with the statement that someone who refuses to shake hands ONLY with women is sexist and hey, maybe you shouldn't be employed here.
    It's an expression of harmful behaviour / views that probably don't conform to organizational guidelines.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    VishNub wrote: »
    “Tamed?”

    They allow women priests, gay priests, and officiate gay weddings. They are officially for legalized abortion.

    They have been brought kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
    Use of the word "tamed" makes me feel uncomfortable when speaking about people/religion.

    In fact, it's really gross.

    It kind of gives away the game re multiculturalism

    I should point out that this is the state church we're talking about. They were forced to make these changes by politicians, the public opinion, and the fact that all members (which was all citizens until 20 years ago) voted it that way by direct vote (we elect the church council in elections).

    So when I say we tamed them, I mean we, the people, tamed our church. Got rid of the fire and brimstone priests, got rid of the "gays are an abomination" bishops, got rid of the "women should not speak at assembly" theologians. Brought them and the church in line with the will of the people in a long, hard battle.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    Nobeardchromdom
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    dispatch.o wrote: »
    Most men's rooms have 3 urinals for every stall. More if it's an airport or big venue. I'm down with getting more stalls and privacy, but the nice part about urinals is you can stand back a bit and not have to touch anything.

    Perhaps we should invent a non-touch from of greeting.

    g04bn42iwlij.jpg

    I'm down with that.

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