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Shaking hands, or: A question of tolerance

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    Is shaking hands with someone an integral part of the job? Almost certainly not, its a social nicety. Respecting people's personal beliefs and boundaries is appropriate.

    Now if you refuse to work with a woman (or a man), or refuses to do so except under certain circumstances, and the job requires or may require two coworkers to work together then its a valid reason regardless of religious view.

    That's not a particularly difficult case. There are much more difficult cases, such as people who won't work on Saturday and/or Sunday in a job whether that is a substantial requirement, but that's where society comes together and draws the limitations of protected individual belief vs reasonable expectations in the workplace

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Tamed was most likely just a jokingly used term which in the context of white Nordic christians is not exactly kicking downward.

    Let’s be honest and say that we like a lot the rights we now have and that most of them are not here thanks to any religion. Personally I often have to remind myself that “you do you” is the stance on religion most compatible with my values, my backbone reaction is one of dislike. That’s my own problem.

    WRT to that though I do believe in legislating against discrimination but refusing a handshake is individual and it’s not like anyone can be demanded to give up a reason for it. I don’t want to shake a hand you can’t make me. But I would personally not hang out with anyone who treats genders differently due to religious reasons as I find that dumb.

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  • TasteticleTasteticle Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Yeah this is a non-issue. Whenever I look at something like this, the question "who is this hurting" is what I ask myself. They aren't refusing to extend a greeting to someone - they're just doing it in a different way.

    Tasteticle on

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    /S any cultural touchstone which requires treating genders in a very different way is rooted in sexism and shouldn't automatically be assumed as worth allowing in multiculturalism.

    Now, if your pr ference is that you don't shake hands with a yone, and it isn't rooted in gender discrimination, then we SHOULD reflect your social politeness in business dealings.

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  • TasteticleTasteticle Registered User regular
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.


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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • TuminTumin Registered User regular
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.

    Some of us do? My coworker refused to be greeted with an air kiss when we went to our French office and some people stopped greeting her at all because they didn't like that dynamic. I wonder if our hiring and promotion practices in France are gender neutral? Hmm.

  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Seems like a non-issue. Here and in SA there are already gendered greetings where men shake hands with other men and women do hugs to both men and women in social settings, and in professional settings everything gets coded masculine and it's just hand shakes.

    The hand shakes bother me more than the hughs oddley enough, as you'd think it would be the opposite, but with a quick one armed hug it's a lot easier to avoid direct skin contact and no chance of some random macho bullshit where the dude squeezes your hand.

    I like what that lady in the picture is doing though, we should all just do that.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    I'm not ready to concede that not shaking someone's hand counts as "discrimination"

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  • -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    I'm having trouble imagining the workplace where handshakes are a high priority sex discrimination issue

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  • TasteticleTasteticle Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.

    Some of us do? My coworker refused to be greeted with an air kiss when we went to our French office and some people stopped greeting her at all because they didn't like that dynamic. I wonder if our hiring and promotion practices in France are gender neutral? Hmm.

    And those people getting mad about her wanting to greet them in a way she was more comfortable with are getting upset over a big ol' nothing.

    My point was more about how Muslim people greeting others differently makes news while other people greeting people differently does not - it's rather telling.


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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?
    I'm just skimming this dumb thread, but I don't believe anyone said that discrimination against gender is okay. Picking at a nothing-burger edge case doesn't mean that you can pull an "a-HA! Gotcha! So you DO believe in discriminating against men! Break out the shears and castrate all men!"

    The context of the situation matters greatly. And this situation is just a social faux pas. Wake me up when, I don't know, a Muslim woman is denying someone a job because of their gender or religion. Or, you know, someone gets their holy place attacked because some nut doesn't like their religion.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

    I think this is like one step short of asking me if Ive stopped beating my wife yet.

    Everyone, including you, carry basic cultural expectations about what is appropriate physical interaction between sexes. No one's is objectively correct in this regard.

    So if a muslim feels its inappropriate to shake hands with a man society will be perfectly capable of carrying on just as it is when you think twice about how closely you sit to a woman on a bus.

    Multiculturalism requires understanding that society can work just fine when people have varying moral standards for decent behavior. Multiculturalism isnt a society where everyone just agrees on white liberalism.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    -Tal wrote: »
    I'm having trouble imagining the workplace where handshakes are a high priority sex discrimination issue
    I can even imagine it in the opposite direction, where a man or woman is inappropriately touching other people in a familiar way (including handshakes) without their consent. NOT handshaking seems like the more polite and proper workplace interaction.

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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Cultures with heavy religious influence, notably in the west as Christian, Jewish and Muslim influences, have regressive attitudes on gender. It's absolutely true that Islam is called out more, and that's wrong. Totally fine with saying America or (insert your nation choice) should tend to its own mess first, but if the question is just, "should the perfect multicultural society allow for gender discrimination in polite greetings" then I'd say no.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.



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  • TuminTumin Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.

    Some of us do? My coworker refused to be greeted with an air kiss when we went to our French office and some people stopped greeting her at all because they didn't like that dynamic. I wonder if our hiring and promotion practices in France are gender neutral? Hmm.

    And those people getting mad about her wanting to greet them in a way she was more comfortable with are getting upset over a big ol' nothing.

    My point was more about how Muslim people greeting others differently makes news while other people greeting people differently does not - it's rather telling.

    I mean, sure, Muslims are called out unfairly here, but at the end of the day having discriminatory handshake beliefs hints at you having other discriminatory beliefs on less trivial things and you shouldn't be surprised at that tiny leap of logic.

    Is that woman a monster? No, of course not. Would I want her to be a judge over my divorce case? No.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.

    Some of us do? My coworker refused to be greeted with an air kiss when we went to our French office and some people stopped greeting her at all because they didn't like that dynamic. I wonder if our hiring and promotion practices in France are gender neutral? Hmm.

    And those people getting mad about her wanting to greet them in a way she was more comfortable with are getting upset over a big ol' nothing.

    My point was more about how Muslim people greeting others differently makes news while other people greeting people differently does not - it's rather telling.

    I mean, sure, Muslims are called out unfairly here, but at the end of the day having discriminatory handshake beliefs hints at you having other discriminatory beliefs on less trivial things and you shouldn't be surprised at that tiny leap of logic.

    Am I suspect for being uncomfortable using a public bathroom stall next to a woman?

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

    I think this is like one step short of asking me if Ive stopped beating my wife yet.

    Everyone, including you, carry basic cultural expectations about what is appropriate physical interaction between sexes. No one's is objectively correct in this regard.

    So if a muslim feels its inappropriate to shake hands with a man society will be perfectly capable of carrying on just as it is when you think twice about how closely you sit to a woman on a bus.

    Multiculturalism requires understanding that society can work just fine when people have varying moral standards for decent behavior. Multiculturalism isnt a society where everyone just agrees on white liberalism.

    We all do have a good old laugh at Pence though.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.


    It's a good thing that the individuals involved weren't coworkers then. Or, you know, knew each other at all prior to their interaction.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.

    Do you still feel this way if they still fully acknowledge female coworkers/ subordinates, but with a different gesture?

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    I'm having trouble imagining the workplace where handshakes are a high priority sex discrimination issue
    I can even imagine it in the opposite direction, where a man or woman is inappropriately touching other people in a familiar way (including handshakes) without their consent. NOT handshaking seems like the more polite and proper workplace interaction.

    I'm trying to imagine a nonconsensual handshake. It's not going well so far...

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

    I think this is like one step short of asking me if Ive stopped beating my wife yet.

    Everyone, including you, carry basic cultural expectations about what is appropriate physical interaction between sexes. No one's is objectively correct in this regard.

    So if a muslim feels its inappropriate to shake hands with a man society will be perfectly capable of carrying on just as it is when you think twice about how closely you sit to a woman on a bus.

    Multiculturalism requires understanding that society can work just fine when people have varying moral standards for decent behavior. Multiculturalism isnt a society where everyone just agrees on white liberalism.

    We all do have a good old laugh at Pence though.

    If he was just a guy then whatever but when its a public official saying he wont meet with women under normal circumstances I think thats qualitatively different.

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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.


    It's a good thing that the individuals involved weren't coworkers then. Or, you know, knew each other at all prior to their interaction.

    Cool, so it's not sexism in the workplace, it's just normal sexism.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.


    It's a good thing that the individuals involved weren't coworkers then. Or, you know, knew each other at all prior to their interaction.

    My statement stands on it's own and was not in reference to the original situation. The conversation has moved on.

    Kristmas Kthulhu
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    I'm having trouble imagining the workplace where handshakes are a high priority sex discrimination issue
    I can even imagine it in the opposite direction, where a man or woman is inappropriately touching other people in a familiar way (including handshakes) without their consent. NOT handshaking seems like the more polite and proper workplace interaction.

    I'm trying to imagine a nonconsensual handshake. It's not going well so far...

    Lucky you

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    Smrtnik
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.



    In a professional setting there should probably be an evenly applied standard since interactions have consequences for your career.

    That standard probably shouldn't be western white male greeting though.

    Social settings are crapshoot already. I hope I never get a surprise hongi again.

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

    I think this is like one step short of asking me if Ive stopped beating my wife yet.

    Everyone, including you, carry basic cultural expectations about what is appropriate physical interaction between sexes. No one's is objectively correct in this regard.

    So if a muslim feels its inappropriate to shake hands with a man society will be perfectly capable of carrying on just as it is when you think twice about how closely you sit to a woman on a bus.

    Multiculturalism requires understanding that society can work just fine when people have varying moral standards for decent behavior. Multiculturalism isnt a society where everyone just agrees on white liberalism.

    We all do have a good old laugh at Pence though.

    I mean, that's just it isn't it, it's degrees. Not shaking someone's hand isn't "refusing to be alone with someone of a different gender in a professional setting" (which I honestly can't remember if that was him or someone else but I know that specific one came up recently)

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  • TuminTumin Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.

    Some of us do? My coworker refused to be greeted with an air kiss when we went to our French office and some people stopped greeting her at all because they didn't like that dynamic. I wonder if our hiring and promotion practices in France are gender neutral? Hmm.

    And those people getting mad about her wanting to greet them in a way she was more comfortable with are getting upset over a big ol' nothing.

    My point was more about how Muslim people greeting others differently makes news while other people greeting people differently does not - it's rather telling.

    I mean, sure, Muslims are called out unfairly here, but at the end of the day having discriminatory handshake beliefs hints at you having other discriminatory beliefs on less trivial things and you shouldn't be surprised at that tiny leap of logic.

    Am I suspect for being uncomfortable using a public bathroom stall next to a woman?

    Obviously you're more suspect for feeling that way than if you didn't. How could it be any other way? I'm free to use that information as I see fit for interactions and decisions I make involving you. It is less important to me than it might be to someone else in some contrived situation where they reject you based on that.

    Just as you're free to think I'm an idiot for being so suspicious of people's underlying beliefs based on what are probably barely conscious behaviors.

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  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    There is not a binary answer to this question. It is both bad that this person's beliefs are based in a sexist system and important that we respect their beliefs as something that is important to them. The question of "how do you react to this situation?" is entirely based on the context in which you're interacting with them. Simply applying sensitivity and respect to the situation is key but if you have the opportunity to influence their beliefs on the subject you should take it.

    I'll be honest just, like, do whatever Picard would do.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.

    Do you still feel this way if they still fully acknowledge female coworkers/ subordinates, but with a different gesture?

    I would still be uncomfortable with it because I view handshakes and other physical gestures differently in a workplace environment (which I can go into if needed).
    It's more than a cliche' that a good strong handshake helps people like you. Now imagine all your other co-workers getting that interaction and now you're the weird one out because you got ovaries.

    Elvenshae
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Tumin wrote: »
    Tasteticle wrote: »
    Like if people want to get riled up about something of this flavour then they should have also been getting riled up about how it's also not unusual to greet men with a handshake and women with the kind of side air kiss thing.

    Some of us do? My coworker refused to be greeted with an air kiss when we went to our French office and some people stopped greeting her at all because they didn't like that dynamic. I wonder if our hiring and promotion practices in France are gender neutral? Hmm.

    And those people getting mad about her wanting to greet them in a way she was more comfortable with are getting upset over a big ol' nothing.

    My point was more about how Muslim people greeting others differently makes news while other people greeting people differently does not - it's rather telling.

    I mean, sure, Muslims are called out unfairly here, but at the end of the day having discriminatory handshake beliefs hints at you having other discriminatory beliefs on less trivial things and you shouldn't be surprised at that tiny leap of logic.

    Am I suspect for being uncomfortable using a public bathroom stall next to a woman?

    Obviously you're more suspect for feeling that way than if you didn't. How could it be any other way? I'm free to use that information as I see fit for interactions and decisions I make involving you. It is less important to me than it might be to someone else in some contrived situation where they reject you based on that.

    Just as you're free to think I'm an idiot for being so suspicious of people's underlying beliefs based on what are probably barely conscious behaviors.

    The point being Im probably more in the normal range on that hang up than you are. Every society has these social expectations and norms and it feels like 95% of the arguments here are one side saying their completely random norms are the Correct ones.

    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
    Tumin
  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Mortious wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.



    In a professional setting there should probably be an evenly applied standard since interactions have consequences for your career.

    That standard probably shouldn't be western white male greeting though.

    Social settings are crapshoot already. I hope I never get a surprise hongi again.

    I agree with this.


  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

    I think this is like one step short of asking me if Ive stopped beating my wife yet.

    Everyone, including you, carry basic cultural expectations about what is appropriate physical interaction between sexes. No one's is objectively correct in this regard.

    So if a muslim feels its inappropriate to shake hands with a man society will be perfectly capable of carrying on just as it is when you think twice about how closely you sit to a woman on a bus.

    Multiculturalism requires understanding that society can work just fine when people have varying moral standards for decent behavior. Multiculturalism isnt a society where everyone just agrees on white liberalism.

    We all do have a good old laugh at Pence though.

    His requirement that he cannot be alone with another woman unless his wife is present is not a reasonable accommodation in the way that replacing a handshake with another form of greeting is.

    I also think this is kinda weird, but certainly not sufficient grounds to refuse hiring someone. If the underlying reason behind it manifests in other ways (like Pence's refusing to have meetings alone, which is a common requirement in basically any job) then that does cross a line.

    Fencingsax
  • TasteticleTasteticle Registered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    I'm not ready to concede that not shaking someone's hand counts as "discrimination"

    I could see this argument being made if someone refuses to greet members of other genders. But that's not the case here.

    Using method A when greeting men and using greeting B when greeting women is silly, don't get me wrong. But harmful? Nah.


    Uh-oh I accidentally deleted my signature. Uh-oh!!
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Ilpala wrote: »
    spool32 wrote: »
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Leave people alone to do what they want.

    Right? A guy should not have to shake hands with women, or dine with them, as it is impure for unmarried men and women to interact much.

    Yeah, but no sarcasm

    Why is discrimination based on gender OK, but discrimination against religious beliefs not?

    I think this is like one step short of asking me if Ive stopped beating my wife yet.

    Everyone, including you, carry basic cultural expectations about what is appropriate physical interaction between sexes. No one's is objectively correct in this regard.

    So if a muslim feels its inappropriate to shake hands with a man society will be perfectly capable of carrying on just as it is when you think twice about how closely you sit to a woman on a bus.

    Multiculturalism requires understanding that society can work just fine when people have varying moral standards for decent behavior. Multiculturalism isnt a society where everyone just agrees on white liberalism.

    We all do have a good old laugh at Pence though.

    I mean, that's just it isn't it, it's degrees. Not shaking someone's hand isn't "refusing to be alone with someone of a different gender in a professional setting" (which I honestly can't remember if that was him or someone else but I know that specific one came up recently)

    He refuses to be alone with another woman in any setting, be it professional or social.

    Like with everything, it is a matter of degrees, everybody has small hangups, but at some point it becomes outside of the norm and is notable. And if it's so far out of the norm that it prevents expected societal functions it becomes a problem.

    Also he's a bad person so I like making fun of him about anything he does.

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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.


    It's a good thing that the individuals involved weren't coworkers then. Or, you know, knew each other at all prior to their interaction.

    Cool, so it's not sexism in the workplace, it's just normal sexism.
    Cool. I'm sure all men were hurt extremely badly by this behavior, and that all women should be punished to the fullest extent of the law for this atrocity.

    No one was harmed. She expressed respect in a different manner. But, you know, let's not drop the issue because it's so important to put those Muslims in their place.

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  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    If a co-worker exclusively shakes hands with other male co-workers but excludes you, a female co-worker, only because you're female that is a bad work environment and absolutely sexism.
    This gets even worse if the person doing it is in a position of power, like your boss.


    It's a good thing that the individuals involved weren't coworkers then. Or, you know, knew each other at all prior to their interaction.

    Cool, so it's not sexism in the workplace, it's just normal sexism.

    Sure. If the point you're trying to make here is that Islamic cultures are sometimes sexist, and that Islamic women can sometimes internalize that sexism in their own behavior, literally nobody here denies that.

    However:

    1) attacking women for internalized misogyny is the very definition of "punching down"

    2) it isn't the Crown Prince's job to criticize the sexist assumptions underpinning another culture's customs, except when those customs are actively causing harm, and in this case they aren't

    3) if we want to draw feminism into this, women also have a right in our Western progressive culture to refuse to be touched, for any goddamn reason they want, and regardless of our opinions of those reasons, we still must respect that lack of consent

    Feral on
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  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    -Tal wrote: »
    I'm having trouble imagining the workplace where handshakes are a high priority sex discrimination issue
    I can even imagine it in the opposite direction, where a man or woman is inappropriately touching other people in a familiar way (including handshakes) without their consent. NOT handshaking seems like the more polite and proper workplace interaction.

    I'm trying to imagine a nonconsensual handshake. It's not going well so far...
    I remember when it was taught that you absolutely need a firm, but not too firm, handshake at an interview (for promotions or hiring) in order to express confidence. *shrugs*

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