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Paying women to stay at home

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Posts

  • GilgaronGilgaron regular Registered User regular

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    This is obtuse. Parenting makes all of the things you're talking about more work in the same way that being a surgeon is more work than working the deli. You're doing the same sort of thing, but there is a great deal more care and risk. The emotional bond is likewise the same as what you would have with a pet, but incredibly stronger. Having a pet is also more work than not having a pet.

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Father only benefits are bold but may be too 7th-level-chess to survive public opinion

    They seem to work just fine already. AFAIK several places have them. Basically, you give out X amount of leave/cash and divide it between the parents. I don't think most places do half-and-half but I think it's totally viable.

    I think it doesn't really apply that way unless both parents are working at the same place, and even then, 50/50 is not a gender-dependent policy. In fact, a system that allows one parent to donate their leave to the other would probably be functionally superior, and now we're back where we started.

    If one parent can give their parental leave to the other, the father (almost) always donates his part to the mother.

    Currently, in Norway, it is 19 weeks mother, 19 weeks father, 11 weeks share. The earmarked portions cannot be given to the other parent, but doesn't have to be used. Typical arrangement is father 19, mother 30.

    8 years ago it was (I believe) 14/14/21 m/f/shared (typically 14 father, 35 mother). Then the government changed to 10 father, 14, mother, 25 shared. Typical arrangement was 10 father, 39 mother.

    Then they changed it to the current arrangement.

    Father always takes minimum, mother always takes maximum.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    shrykeKristmas Kthulhu
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    Worth mentioning from my own perspectives in helping with my nephews, children require an extensive amount of paperwork, research, and assessment that makes my work at the university seem straightforward by comparison. From tracking medical information to figuring out which option of school/pediatrics/and even clothing and toys are actually safe and developmental, to figuring out what is going wrong when your child starts developing psychological concerns like over-organization of toys and refusal to enter specific rooms and triaging that early-childhood development traumas.

    You are doing the work of a personal assistant, jailer, psychologist, academic researcher, nurse, media analysts, professional nutritionist, and paralegal weekly. And that's just as Uncle Enc helping out on the weekends. I still get to go home and rest in peace and quiet after I'm done. They don't.

    Enc on
    Quidspool32SleepDr. Phibbs McAtheyAridholiTunesIsEvillonelyahavaKristmas Kthulhu
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Father only benefits are bold but may be too 7th-level-chess to survive public opinion

    They seem to work just fine already. AFAIK several places have them. Basically, you give out X amount of leave/cash and divide it between the parents. I don't think most places do half-and-half but I think it's totally viable.

    I said this before, I don't see how the same principle is supposed to be applied to paying parents to stay at home. Can you elaborate?

    You mean like a cash-for-childcare system? I guess you could do something like the payments topping out at a certain point per parent. If you want all the money you need to evenly split it between both. There's probably more clever schemes out there then that.

    This is similar to how some parental leave schemes work. If you have paid maternity leave and then paid parental leave that can be split any way you want, generally the women ends up taking all or most of both pots. So instead you have paid maternity leave and then paid paternity leave and basically force the father to take the leave themselves or they lose it all. I believe .. I wanna say Sweden or Norway? actually went through this whole example.

    If you really wanna poke this problem in the eye and get deep into some policy-based reshaping of behaviour I believe what some policy experts on this stuff think is the best way is actually to force parents to take the cfc payments or leave or whatever non-simultaneously. Because if both the father and mother take the time off together the mother ends up doing most of the work and the bonding and all that anyway.


    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Father only benefits are bold but may be too 7th-level-chess to survive public opinion

    They seem to work just fine already. AFAIK several places have them. Basically, you give out X amount of leave/cash and divide it between the parents. I don't think most places do half-and-half but I think it's totally viable.

    I think it doesn't really apply that way unless both parents are working at the same place, and even then, 50/50 is not a gender-dependent policy. In fact, a system that allows one parent to donate their leave to the other would probably be functionally superior, and now we're back where we started.

    I am honestly unsure what you are talking about here.

    shryke on
    [Expletive deleted]
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, don't @ me
    [Expletive deleted]DarkewolfeAntinumeric
  • PaladinPaladin regular Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Father only benefits are bold but may be too 7th-level-chess to survive public opinion

    They seem to work just fine already. AFAIK several places have them. Basically, you give out X amount of leave/cash and divide it between the parents. I don't think most places do half-and-half but I think it's totally viable.

    I said this before, I don't see how the same principle is supposed to be applied to paying parents to stay at home. Can you elaborate?

    You mean like a cash-for-childcare system? I guess you could do something like the payments topping out at a certain point per parent. If you want all the money you need to evenly split it between both. There's probably more clever schemes out there then that.

    This is similar to how some parental leave schemes work. If you have paid maternity leave and then paid parental leave that can be split any way you want, generally the women ends up taking all or most of both pots. So instead you have paid maternity leave and then paid paternity leave and basically force the father to take the leave themselves or they lose it all. I believe .. I wanna say Sweden or Norway? actually went through this whole example.

    If you really wanna poke this problem in the eye and get deep into some policy-based reshaping of behaviour I believe what some policy experts on this stuff think is the best way is actually to force parents to take the cfc payments or leave or whatever non-simultaneously. Because if both the father and mother take the time off together the mother ends up doing most of the work and the bonding and all that anyway.


    Paladin wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Father only benefits are bold but may be too 7th-level-chess to survive public opinion

    They seem to work just fine already. AFAIK several places have them. Basically, you give out X amount of leave/cash and divide it between the parents. I don't think most places do half-and-half but I think it's totally viable.

    I think it doesn't really apply that way unless both parents are working at the same place, and even then, 50/50 is not a gender-dependent policy. In fact, a system that allows one parent to donate their leave to the other would probably be functionally superior, and now we're back where we started.

    I am honestly unsure what you are talking about here.

    You were proposing an additional father only benefit system, right? If not, then my stuff doesn't apply

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers regular Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    My friends get up with their kids at about 7am. Make breakfast. Do some house cleaning while the kids eat. Do an activity. Feed the kids morning tea. Go outside trip a park or other organized event. Make lunch. Go food shopping. Do another activity. If the kids nap, then they do some house work. Kids wake up, make afternoon tea. Do another activity or let them free play. Make dinner. More playing. Have a bath. Start bedtime. Keep doing bedtime. Finally they're asleep. Do more housework. If your kid's sleeping through the night, lucky you! And all of that while also talking to the kids constantly, answering a million questions about why the cow has four feet.

    Get to sleep by ten. If your kid's sleeps through, you sleep through. If not, then you don't.

    Then you do it all again the next day.

    This is exactly the shit that makes me reject the whole "kids are work" construction. Most of this is stuff every adult has to do. You have to go food shopping and then after that you need to take the food and cook it? It is so unfair that once you have kids you can no longer use Amazon IV nutrient bags all non-parents use. Do no parents receive government provided maids, landscapers, and handymen until they have a kid.

    You go to bed at 10 and are up at the crack of 7. Sounds awful, they should pick a more laid back career like farming.

    And I mean really, "go to a park", "free play"? 12 hours in the fucking coal mines that.

    Um, wow. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone makes it sound like you are from r/childfree.

    With kids, especially in the first few years, you gotta keep your attention on them always. Imagine you got a new puppy. The moment you turn away, it's ripping up your carpet, peeing on your couch, ripping up your toilet paper, and trying to eat your fiscus. You've got a few weeks to spend to train it to go for walks, eat only from the bowl, potty train it, and puppy proof your house.

    Now imagine that instead of a few weeks of constant viligance, it's several years. Oh, and if you do a bad job, or pick the wrong childcare provider, or even get distracted for a few minutes by a book, your kid could get hurt, and CPS is on your case.

    I understand, looking after kids seems like a walk in the park (and sometimes it literally is), and that parents should be paid in the loving memories that it creates. A good chunk of the time you're stressed, sleep deprived, and a few potty accidents from breaking down.

    Let me try and put it this way.

    If I decide to go spend an hour tonight throwing a frisbee in the park. I don't think that if its a friend, a friends dog, or a friends kid catching it makes it work in one case and pleasure in the others.

    You fundamentally do not understand what being a parent is like or the work that goes into it. Please stop.

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    Try, for just a second, and I know this will be hard for you, but really give it a try, to imagine that you don't actually know everything and that it's possible that the multiple parents in this thread telling you what parenting is like might actually, very likely, have lived experience to back up their knowledge and opinion.

    Your attitude is part of the problem we are discussing. Childcare and homemaking and being a primary caregiver is work, that has, historically, been done by women, and historically and apparently in this very thread, gone unnoticed or been devalued as not that hard or something no one deserves to be paid for.

    Maybe take a second to listen, instead of concluding, based on a summary post by a someone you don't know and whose struggles and personal circumstances you have no idea about, that parenting is easy and not work. Maybe just try that.

    Maybe, rather than just policing my posts, someone could make a positive argument beyond just "Task List, Its work"

    In particular why mundane tasks like "grocery shopping" are not work for a single person or a couple without children, but become work once a child is born. My dad cleans the house every Sunday; was it only work for the 20 years he had children in his house for? Was it work when we were there as adults during college breaks? Is it not work now that me and my siblings don't live there? If we were visiting my grandparents with my mom for a week, was it not work that Sunday? But was the Sundays before and after?

    tinwhiskers on
    How do you spell Justice?B D S Non-Violent Resistance to Israel Apartheid & Occupation.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    Enc wrote: »
    Worth mentioning from my own perspectives in helping with my nephews, children require an extensive amount of paperwork, research, and assessment that makes my work at the university seem straightforward by comparison. From tracking medical information to figuring out which option of school/pediatrics/and even clothing and toys are actually safe and developmental, to figuring out what is going wrong when your child starts developing psychological concerns like over-organization of toys and refusal to enter specific rooms and triaging that early-childhood development traumas.

    You are doing the work of a personal assistant, jailer, psychologist, academic researcher, nurse, media analysts, professional nutritionist, and paralegal weekly. And that's just as Uncle Enc helping out on the weekends. I still get to go home and rest in peace and quiet after I'm done. They don't.

    This is actually one aspect where daycare is really really helpful. There's just a ton of stuff you handle, mentally and organizationally every day and a ton of stress and obligation you feel towards promoting good development of your children, when dealing with your children and a good daycare just takes a nice big chunk of that shit off your hands.


    PS - the amount of effort and concern that goes into these issues is also why parents will fight fucking viciously over anything to do with schooling

    shryke on
    [Expletive deleted]
  • KetarKetar Ready to feel better about your own miserable lives?Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    QuidSo It GoesEncAridholiTunesIsEvilFANTOMASKristmas Kthulhu
  • So It GoesSo It Goes regular We keep moving...Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    It's not gatekeeping. I researched and read and watched friend's kids and did pre-birth classes and still, I was not prepared. Nor is parenting intuitive. That's a lie. It's a learned skillset and you are learning in an extremely stressful environment. Nor is good, careful, empathetic, supportive parenting something everyone can do, because it takes loads of effort. Many people are not suited for it, unfortunately it can be hard to find that out until after you've had a child and your life has been changed irrevocably.

    Asking someone to listen when parents tell you about what parenting is like instead of just saying parenting is fundamentally not work is not gatekeeping.

    KetariTunesIsEvillonelyahavaFANTOMASKristmas Kthulhu
  • PaladinPaladin regular Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    My friends get up with their kids at about 7am. Make breakfast. Do some house cleaning while the kids eat. Do an activity. Feed the kids morning tea. Go outside trip a park or other organized event. Make lunch. Go food shopping. Do another activity. If the kids nap, then they do some house work. Kids wake up, make afternoon tea. Do another activity or let them free play. Make dinner. More playing. Have a bath. Start bedtime. Keep doing bedtime. Finally they're asleep. Do more housework. If your kid's sleeping through the night, lucky you! And all of that while also talking to the kids constantly, answering a million questions about why the cow has four feet.

    Get to sleep by ten. If your kid's sleeps through, you sleep through. If not, then you don't.

    Then you do it all again the next day.

    This is exactly the shit that makes me reject the whole "kids are work" construction. Most of this is stuff every adult has to do. You have to go food shopping and then after that you need to take the food and cook it? It is so unfair that once you have kids you can no longer use Amazon IV nutrient bags all non-parents use. Do no parents receive government provided maids, landscapers, and handymen until they have a kid.

    You go to bed at 10 and are up at the crack of 7. Sounds awful, they should pick a more laid back career like farming.

    And I mean really, "go to a park", "free play"? 12 hours in the fucking coal mines that.

    Um, wow. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone makes it sound like you are from r/childfree.

    With kids, especially in the first few years, you gotta keep your attention on them always. Imagine you got a new puppy. The moment you turn away, it's ripping up your carpet, peeing on your couch, ripping up your toilet paper, and trying to eat your fiscus. You've got a few weeks to spend to train it to go for walks, eat only from the bowl, potty train it, and puppy proof your house.

    Now imagine that instead of a few weeks of constant viligance, it's several years. Oh, and if you do a bad job, or pick the wrong childcare provider, or even get distracted for a few minutes by a book, your kid could get hurt, and CPS is on your case.

    I understand, looking after kids seems like a walk in the park (and sometimes it literally is), and that parents should be paid in the loving memories that it creates. A good chunk of the time you're stressed, sleep deprived, and a few potty accidents from breaking down.

    Let me try and put it this way.

    If I decide to go spend an hour tonight throwing a frisbee in the park. I don't think that if its a friend, a friends dog, or a friends kid catching it makes it work in one case and pleasure in the others.

    You fundamentally do not understand what being a parent is like or the work that goes into it. Please stop.

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    Try, for just a second, and I know this will be hard for you, but really give it a try, to imagine that you don't actually know everything and that it's possible that the multiple parents in this thread telling you what parenting is like might actually, very likely, have lived experience to back up their knowledge and opinion.

    Your attitude is part of the problem we are discussing. Childcare and homemaking and being a primary caregiver is work, that has, historically, been done by women, and historically and apparently in this very thread, gone unnoticed or been devalued as not that hard or something no one deserves to be paid for.

    Maybe take a second to listen, instead of concluding, based on a summary post by a someone you don't know and whose struggles and personal circumstances you have no idea about, that parenting is easy and not work. Maybe just try that.

    Maybe, rather than just policing my posts, someone could make a positive argument beyond just "Task List, Its work"

    In particular why mundane tasks like "grocery shopping" are not work for a single person or a couple without children, but become work once a child is born. My dad cleans the house every Sunday; was it only work for the 20 years he had children in his house for? Was it work when we were there as adults during college breaks? Is it not work now that me and my siblings don't live there? If we were visiting my grandparents with my mom for a week, was it not work that Sunday? But was the Sundays before and after?

    As another outsider, it's like you're acting as the butler for your family members. So apply everything you just said to imagining your father as a butler. I think everything tracks then.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • SleepSleep regular Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    .
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    My friends get up with their kids at about 7am. Make breakfast. Do some house cleaning while the kids eat. Do an activity. Feed the kids morning tea. Go outside trip a park or other organized event. Make lunch. Go food shopping. Do another activity. If the kids nap, then they do some house work. Kids wake up, make afternoon tea. Do another activity or let them free play. Make dinner. More playing. Have a bath. Start bedtime. Keep doing bedtime. Finally they're asleep. Do more housework. If your kid's sleeping through the night, lucky you! And all of that while also talking to the kids constantly, answering a million questions about why the cow has four feet.

    Get to sleep by ten. If your kid's sleeps through, you sleep through. If not, then you don't.

    Then you do it all again the next day.

    This is exactly the shit that makes me reject the whole "kids are work" construction. Most of this is stuff every adult has to do. You have to go food shopping and then after that you need to take the food and cook it? It is so unfair that once you have kids you can no longer use Amazon IV nutrient bags all non-parents use. Do no parents receive government provided maids, landscapers, and handymen until they have a kid.

    You go to bed at 10 and are up at the crack of 7. Sounds awful, they should pick a more laid back career like farming.

    And I mean really, "go to a park", "free play"? 12 hours in the fucking coal mines that.

    Um, wow. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone makes it sound like you are from r/childfree.

    With kids, especially in the first few years, you gotta keep your attention on them always. Imagine you got a new puppy. The moment you turn away, it's ripping up your carpet, peeing on your couch, ripping up your toilet paper, and trying to eat your fiscus. You've got a few weeks to spend to train it to go for walks, eat only from the bowl, potty train it, and puppy proof your house.

    Now imagine that instead of a few weeks of constant viligance, it's several years. Oh, and if you do a bad job, or pick the wrong childcare provider, or even get distracted for a few minutes by a book, your kid could get hurt, and CPS is on your case.

    I understand, looking after kids seems like a walk in the park (and sometimes it literally is), and that parents should be paid in the loving memories that it creates. A good chunk of the time you're stressed, sleep deprived, and a few potty accidents from breaking down.

    Let me try and put it this way.

    If I decide to go spend an hour tonight throwing a frisbee in the park. I don't think that if its a friend, a friends dog, or a friends kid catching it makes it work in one case and pleasure in the others.

    You fundamentally do not understand what being a parent is like or the work that goes into it. Please stop.

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    Try, for just a second, and I know this will be hard for you, but really give it a try, to imagine that you don't actually know everything and that it's possible that the multiple parents in this thread telling you what parenting is like might actually, very likely, have lived experience to back up their knowledge and opinion.

    Your attitude is part of the problem we are discussing. Childcare and homemaking and being a primary caregiver is work, that has, historically, been done by women, and historically and apparently in this very thread, gone unnoticed or been devalued as not that hard or something no one deserves to be paid for.

    Maybe take a second to listen, instead of concluding, based on a summary post by a someone you don't know and whose struggles and personal circumstances you have no idea about, that parenting is easy and not work. Maybe just try that.

    Maybe, rather than just policing my posts, someone could make a positive argument beyond just "Task List, Its work"

    In particular why mundane tasks like "grocery shopping" are not work for a single person or a couple without children, but become work once a child is born. My dad cleans the house every Sunday; was it only work for the 20 years he had children in his house for? Was it work when we were there as adults during college breaks? Is it not work now that me and my siblings don't live there? If we were visiting my grandparents with my mom for a week, was it not work that Sunday? But was the Sundays before and after?

    Have you ever had to do grocery shopping with a child below the age of ten, on a regular basis, ever before?

    Like if you don't know what the difference between these two scenarios are you're missing pretty much the whole image here.

    Sleep on
    KetarEncKristmas Kthulhu
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    I was referencing the earlier post where every task was listed out in their day.

    That's what tin whiskers originally quoted, he's not just like pulling this out of his fucking ass.

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, don't @ me
    Antinumeric
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    Zero fucking percent of the shit you have to do is the same as what the parent is doing, from child age 0-20+, because, among an enormous list of reasons, you are just doing them for you.


    You. Don't. Understand. Fuck gatekeeping, I welcome anybody trying to understand. There's no gate here. If you can understand where TW is coming from, it's because you are ignorant of the reality. What you're experiencing is not understanding, it's shared ignorance.

    SleepSo It GoesKetarAridholFANTOMAS
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    Cooking dinner with 2 kids vs cooking dinner without any kids is a whole different ballgame. It's also why the one-eye-babysitter comes into play for so many parents, despite all the childcare experts saying not to let young kids watch TV.

    Quidlonelyahava
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Geth, kick @tinwhiskers from the thread.

  • GethGeth Legion Perseus VeilRegistered User, Moderator, Penny Arcade Staff, Vanilla Staff vanilla
    Affirmative Bogart. @tinwhiskers banned from this thread.

  • So It GoesSo It Goes regular We keep moving...Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    My friends get up with their kids at about 7am. Make breakfast. Do some house cleaning while the kids eat. Do an activity. Feed the kids morning tea. Go outside trip a park or other organized event. Make lunch. Go food shopping. Do another activity. If the kids nap, then they do some house work. Kids wake up, make afternoon tea. Do another activity or let them free play. Make dinner. More playing. Have a bath. Start bedtime. Keep doing bedtime. Finally they're asleep. Do more housework. If your kid's sleeping through the night, lucky you! And all of that while also talking to the kids constantly, answering a million questions about why the cow has four feet.

    Get to sleep by ten. If your kid's sleeps through, you sleep through. If not, then you don't.

    Then you do it all again the next day.

    This is exactly the shit that makes me reject the whole "kids are work" construction. Most of this is stuff every adult has to do. You have to go food shopping and then after that you need to take the food and cook it? It is so unfair that once you have kids you can no longer use Amazon IV nutrient bags all non-parents use. Do no parents receive government provided maids, landscapers, and handymen until they have a kid.

    You go to bed at 10 and are up at the crack of 7. Sounds awful, they should pick a more laid back career like farming.

    And I mean really, "go to a park", "free play"? 12 hours in the fucking coal mines that.

    Um, wow. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone makes it sound like you are from r/childfree.

    With kids, especially in the first few years, you gotta keep your attention on them always. Imagine you got a new puppy. The moment you turn away, it's ripping up your carpet, peeing on your couch, ripping up your toilet paper, and trying to eat your fiscus. You've got a few weeks to spend to train it to go for walks, eat only from the bowl, potty train it, and puppy proof your house.

    Now imagine that instead of a few weeks of constant viligance, it's several years. Oh, and if you do a bad job, or pick the wrong childcare provider, or even get distracted for a few minutes by a book, your kid could get hurt, and CPS is on your case.

    I understand, looking after kids seems like a walk in the park (and sometimes it literally is), and that parents should be paid in the loving memories that it creates. A good chunk of the time you're stressed, sleep deprived, and a few potty accidents from breaking down.

    Let me try and put it this way.

    If I decide to go spend an hour tonight throwing a frisbee in the park. I don't think that if its a friend, a friends dog, or a friends kid catching it makes it work in one case and pleasure in the others.

    You fundamentally do not understand what being a parent is like or the work that goes into it. Please stop.

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    Try, for just a second, and I know this will be hard for you, but really give it a try, to imagine that you don't actually know everything and that it's possible that the multiple parents in this thread telling you what parenting is like might actually, very likely, have lived experience to back up their knowledge and opinion.

    Your attitude is part of the problem we are discussing. Childcare and homemaking and being a primary caregiver is work, that has, historically, been done by women, and historically and apparently in this very thread, gone unnoticed or been devalued as not that hard or something no one deserves to be paid for.

    Maybe take a second to listen, instead of concluding, based on a summary post by a someone you don't know and whose struggles and personal circumstances you have no idea about, that parenting is easy and not work. Maybe just try that.

    Maybe, rather than just policing my posts, someone could make a positive argument beyond just "Task List, Its work"

    In particular why mundane tasks like "grocery shopping" are not work for a single person or a couple without children, but become work once a child is born. My dad cleans the house every Sunday; was it only work for the 20 years he had children in his house for? Was it work when we were there as adults during college breaks? Is it not work now that me and my siblings don't live there? If we were visiting my grandparents with my mom for a week, was it not work that Sunday? But was the Sundays before and after?

    Your response when someone gave a task list was to reply that it sounds easy and is the same as the stuff you already do. It's clear you are not here to listen to what actual parents have to say.

    Kristmas Kthulhu
  • PaladinPaladin regular Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    .
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    My friends get up with their kids at about 7am. Make breakfast. Do some house cleaning while the kids eat. Do an activity. Feed the kids morning tea. Go outside trip a park or other organized event. Make lunch. Go food shopping. Do another activity. If the kids nap, then they do some house work. Kids wake up, make afternoon tea. Do another activity or let them free play. Make dinner. More playing. Have a bath. Start bedtime. Keep doing bedtime. Finally they're asleep. Do more housework. If your kid's sleeping through the night, lucky you! And all of that while also talking to the kids constantly, answering a million questions about why the cow has four feet.

    Get to sleep by ten. If your kid's sleeps through, you sleep through. If not, then you don't.

    Then you do it all again the next day.

    This is exactly the shit that makes me reject the whole "kids are work" construction. Most of this is stuff every adult has to do. You have to go food shopping and then after that you need to take the food and cook it? It is so unfair that once you have kids you can no longer use Amazon IV nutrient bags all non-parents use. Do no parents receive government provided maids, landscapers, and handymen until they have a kid.

    You go to bed at 10 and are up at the crack of 7. Sounds awful, they should pick a more laid back career like farming.

    And I mean really, "go to a park", "free play"? 12 hours in the fucking coal mines that.

    Um, wow. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone makes it sound like you are from r/childfree.

    With kids, especially in the first few years, you gotta keep your attention on them always. Imagine you got a new puppy. The moment you turn away, it's ripping up your carpet, peeing on your couch, ripping up your toilet paper, and trying to eat your fiscus. You've got a few weeks to spend to train it to go for walks, eat only from the bowl, potty train it, and puppy proof your house.

    Now imagine that instead of a few weeks of constant viligance, it's several years. Oh, and if you do a bad job, or pick the wrong childcare provider, or even get distracted for a few minutes by a book, your kid could get hurt, and CPS is on your case.

    I understand, looking after kids seems like a walk in the park (and sometimes it literally is), and that parents should be paid in the loving memories that it creates. A good chunk of the time you're stressed, sleep deprived, and a few potty accidents from breaking down.

    Let me try and put it this way.

    If I decide to go spend an hour tonight throwing a frisbee in the park. I don't think that if its a friend, a friends dog, or a friends kid catching it makes it work in one case and pleasure in the others.

    You fundamentally do not understand what being a parent is like or the work that goes into it. Please stop.

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    Try, for just a second, and I know this will be hard for you, but really give it a try, to imagine that you don't actually know everything and that it's possible that the multiple parents in this thread telling you what parenting is like might actually, very likely, have lived experience to back up their knowledge and opinion.

    Your attitude is part of the problem we are discussing. Childcare and homemaking and being a primary caregiver is work, that has, historically, been done by women, and historically and apparently in this very thread, gone unnoticed or been devalued as not that hard or something no one deserves to be paid for.

    Maybe take a second to listen, instead of concluding, based on a summary post by a someone you don't know and whose struggles and personal circumstances you have no idea about, that parenting is easy and not work. Maybe just try that.

    Maybe, rather than just policing my posts, someone could make a positive argument beyond just "Task List, Its work"

    In particular why mundane tasks like "grocery shopping" are not work for a single person or a couple without children, but become work once a child is born. My dad cleans the house every Sunday; was it only work for the 20 years he had children in his house for? Was it work when we were there as adults during college breaks? Is it not work now that me and my siblings don't live there? If we were visiting my grandparents with my mom for a week, was it not work that Sunday? But was the Sundays before and after?

    Have you ever had to do grocery shopping with a child below the age of ten, on a regular basis, ever before?

    Like if you don't know what the difference between these two scenarios are you're missing pretty much the whole image here.

    In the interests of a good faith discussion, it is helpful to find a common frame of reference to get the idea across. I think everyone here including tinwhiskers will readily admit that he doesn't know exactly how it is, so I see this as an excellent opportunity to educate. I think the burden of childcare is mostly objectively quantifiable.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Further assholery will be dealt with in the harsh and unfriendly manner that only a man trying to listen to the cricket and not mod idiots can manage.

  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    It's work but there is no employer, you're not doing it so the boss's boat remains a new model

    the semantics don't matter, though

    if Wal-Mart gets to hang up brochures in their break rooms for how to apply for public benefits because they don't pay their workers enough, and society is okay with publicly subsidizing their business, we can talk about some kind of public recompense for parenting

    consider it a downpayment on that child's pending lifetime of tax paid back into the system

    SummaryJudgment on
    tERiPJd.jpg
  • KetarKetar Ready to feel better about your own miserable lives?Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    bowen wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    I was referencing the earlier post where every task was listed out in their day.

    That's what tin whiskers originally quoted, he's not just like pulling this out of his fucking ass.

    That wasn't a great accounting for what stay at home parenting is actually like, to be honest. It was overly task-centric and also leaves out the bulk of actual childcare - the real work of parenting. But continuing to focus on that one post rather than what everyone else has been adding and discussing since then is just...

    Ketar on
    SummaryJudgmentlonelyahava
  • SleepSleep regular Registered User regular
    If you don't get the difference between me getting baked and going to throw disc with my friends, and a half asleep parent covered in literall shit getting dragged to the park by an 8 year old that's gonna throw disc for at best 5 minutes before they move over to every other piece of equipment in the park (that you're really hoping they don't break their head open on), I'm really not sure there's any way for you to grasp the context here.

    SummaryJudgmentQuidKetarnavgooseDr. Phibbs McAtheySo It GoesiTunesIsEvilKristmas Kthulhu
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    I was referencing the earlier post where every task was listed out in their day.

    That's what tin whiskers originally quoted, he's not just like pulling this out of his fucking ass.

    That wasn't a great accounting for what stay at home parenting is actually like, to be honest. But continuing to focus on that one post rather than what everyone else has been adding and discussing since then is just...

    That's fair and all, but how do you expect someone to grasp anything you're explaining if you don't explain it either? It's probably quantifiable but so far it's "you just don't know..." or "it's clear you don't know..."

    What does that even mean?

    not a doctor, not a lawyer, don't @ me
  • PaladinPaladin regular Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    If you don't get the difference between me getting baked and going to throw disc with my friends, and a half asleep parent covered in literall shit getting dragged to the park by an 8 year old that's gonna throw disc for at best 5 minutes before they move over to every other piece of equipment in the park (that you're really hoping they don't break their head open on), I'm really not sure there's any way for you to grasp the context here.

    I'm not sure either, but we've got to try, else there will never be equity been parents and childless people.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • KetarKetar Ready to feel better about your own miserable lives?Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    I was referencing the earlier post where every task was listed out in their day.

    That's what tin whiskers originally quoted, he's not just like pulling this out of his fucking ass.

    That wasn't a great accounting for what stay at home parenting is actually like, to be honest. But continuing to focus on that one post rather than what everyone else has been adding and discussing since then is just...

    That's fair and all, but how do you expect someone to grasp anything you're explaining if you don't explain it either? It's probably quantifiable but so far it's "you just don't know..." or "it's clear you don't know..."

    What does that even mean?

    Multiple people have made various efforts to further explain. If you're not seeing any of it, I don't know what to tell you.

  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Several people have given examples. I don't even have kids and I could describe the difference between cooking with and without children.

    Kristmas Kthulhu
  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Today we will paint a mountain that owes us nothing. Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    If you don't get the difference between me getting baked and going to throw disc with my friends, and a half asleep parent covered in literall shit getting dragged to the park by an 8 year old that's gonna throw disc for at best 5 minutes before they move over to every other piece of equipment in the park (that you're really hoping they don't break their head open on), I'm really not sure there's any way for you to grasp the context here.

    I'm not sure either, but we've got to try, else there will never be equity been parents and childless people.

    we've got to try, but not necessarily with every person

    tERiPJd.jpg
    So It Goes
  • PaladinPaladin regular Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Several people have given examples. I don't even have kids and I could describe the difference between cooking with and without children.

    I think you're more capable of describing this than a full time parent because you still have a foot in each world. You can bridge the gap in understanding.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • navgoosenavgoose regular Registered User regular
    Watching older kids is hardly time consuming compared to infant/toddlers.

    But also people have multiple kids! If you have just 2 children in your life that's 4-8 years snack dab in the prime age ranges of high stress parenting.

    SleepDr. Phibbs McAtheyKristmas Kthulhu
  • JavenJaven regular Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    To put in the closest "work" terms I can

    Being a personal assistant is a paid job

    So is chef, and personal trainer, and house-cleaner

    At the absolute minimum, with no other unusual occurrences or additional circumstances, you are expected to perform those roles for another person, in addition to whatever personal maintenance or upkeep you require for yourself

    If we can all agree that those things are jobs, there's really no other discussion on the topic that has to take place.

    Javen on
    QuidEncSo It GoesKristmas Kthulhu
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains regular Registered User regular
    Sounds more like a case for UBI than parental assistance. I don't want kids. It looks like a lot of work and I'd rather have the spare resources. UBI lets everybody make the choice that's right for them without putting one group ahead of another.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Ketar wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I'm not going to jump into the cavernous maw of saying "this is not work", because it is, full stop, to take care of a child full time. Hard work too.

    But at the same time "you don't understand what it's like having kids" is some pretty shitty gatekeeping. And it's hard to sympathize because when someone talks about their day as a stay at home parent, 80% of it is shit I also have to do, on top of working at my job. I can understand where tin whiskers is coming from... but also he's making it sound really awful too at the same time.

    There's also a significant time difference between stay at home parents caring for an infant, a toddler, and an older child. I feel like tin whiskers might be talking about the later (kindergarten aged) and the bulk of parents here are referencing that rough 1-3 years they remember being a walking corpse.

    If you believe that 80% of what a stay at home parent does during the day is the same stuff you have to do, that's because you're focusing strictly on basic tasks like laundry, cooking, shopping and so on and ignoring the bulk of actual parenting and childcare.

    If you believe that doing just those basic tasks with small children around is comparable to when you do them, well, "you don't understand what it's like having kids."

    I was referencing the earlier post where every task was listed out in their day.

    That's what tin whiskers originally quoted, he's not just like pulling this out of his fucking ass.

    That wasn't a great accounting for what stay at home parenting is actually like, to be honest. But continuing to focus on that one post rather than what everyone else has been adding and discussing since then is just...

    That's fair and all, but how do you expect someone to grasp anything you're explaining if you don't explain it either? It's probably quantifiable but so far it's "you just don't know..." or "it's clear you don't know..."

    What does that even mean?

    I sent some examples on this page and last, as have others. It's not just gatekeeping.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Muzzmuzz wrote: »
    My friends get up with their kids at about 7am. Make breakfast. Do some house cleaning while the kids eat. Do an activity. Feed the kids morning tea. Go outside trip a park or other organized event. Make lunch. Go food shopping. Do another activity. If the kids nap, then they do some house work. Kids wake up, make afternoon tea. Do another activity or let them free play. Make dinner. More playing. Have a bath. Start bedtime. Keep doing bedtime. Finally they're asleep. Do more housework. If your kid's sleeping through the night, lucky you! And all of that while also talking to the kids constantly, answering a million questions about why the cow has four feet.

    Get to sleep by ten. If your kid's sleeps through, you sleep through. If not, then you don't.

    Then you do it all again the next day.

    This is exactly the shit that makes me reject the whole "kids are work" construction. Most of this is stuff every adult has to do. You have to go food shopping and then after that you need to take the food and cook it? It is so unfair that once you have kids you can no longer use Amazon IV nutrient bags all non-parents use. Do no parents receive government provided maids, landscapers, and handymen until they have a kid.

    You go to bed at 10 and are up at the crack of 7. Sounds awful, they should pick a more laid back career like farming.

    And I mean really, "go to a park", "free play"? 12 hours in the fucking coal mines that.

    Um, wow. I understand where you're coming from, but your tone makes it sound like you are from r/childfree.

    With kids, especially in the first few years, you gotta keep your attention on them always. Imagine you got a new puppy. The moment you turn away, it's ripping up your carpet, peeing on your couch, ripping up your toilet paper, and trying to eat your fiscus. You've got a few weeks to spend to train it to go for walks, eat only from the bowl, potty train it, and puppy proof your house.

    Now imagine that instead of a few weeks of constant viligance, it's several years. Oh, and if you do a bad job, or pick the wrong childcare provider, or even get distracted for a few minutes by a book, your kid could get hurt, and CPS is on your case.

    I understand, looking after kids seems like a walk in the park (and sometimes it literally is), and that parents should be paid in the loving memories that it creates. A good chunk of the time you're stressed, sleep deprived, and a few potty accidents from breaking down.

    Let me try and put it this way.

    If I decide to go spend an hour tonight throwing a frisbee in the park. I don't think that if its a friend, a friends dog, or a friends kid catching it makes it work in one case and pleasure in the others.

    You fundamentally do not understand what being a parent is like or the work that goes into it. Please stop.

    Maybe that's because it is fundamentally not work.

    Try, for just a second, and I know this will be hard for you, but really give it a try, to imagine that you don't actually know everything and that it's possible that the multiple parents in this thread telling you what parenting is like might actually, very likely, have lived experience to back up their knowledge and opinion.

    Your attitude is part of the problem we are discussing. Childcare and homemaking and being a primary caregiver is work, that has, historically, been done by women, and historically and apparently in this very thread, gone unnoticed or been devalued as not that hard or something no one deserves to be paid for.

    Maybe take a second to listen, instead of concluding, based on a summary post by a someone you don't know and whose struggles and personal circumstances you have no idea about, that parenting is easy and not work. Maybe just try that.

    Maybe, rather than just policing my posts, someone could make a positive argument beyond just "Task List, Its work"

    In particular why mundane tasks like "grocery shopping" are not work for a single person or a couple without children, but become work once a child is born. My dad cleans the house every Sunday; was it only work for the 20 years he had children in his house for? Was it work when we were there as adults during college breaks? Is it not work now that me and my siblings don't live there? If we were visiting my grandparents with my mom for a week, was it not work that Sunday? But was the Sundays before and after?

    Fuck it, why not.

    1) grocery shopping - it's not a "mundane task" because with a child you now have to also parent a child in public the whole time, including just saying fuck it and walking away from the cart because it's literally impossible to walk down the aisle just then due to the disruption, damage, chaos, stress, and occasionally actual literal physical danger to yourself, bystanders, and/or the child that your presence represents. If you're walking down the aisle and you decide you want to turn around and go get something, you can just... turn around, and go get the thing.

    Doing so as a parent might result in the death of the child.

    One time, I was playing with Blameless Cleric and lifted her up over my head by her ankles like I'd done a thousand times before, but this time, for no imaginable reason, she bit me on the nerve that runs from shoulder to my neck, my hand reflexively opened, and she plummeted headfirst toward the concrete. I managed to snatch her out of the air with the other hand before that instant of impossible-to-predict danger nearly ended her life.

    That's possible every instant you're in the store, including all the instants where you're paying enough attention to prevent it. 10 seconds of distraction = dead if your luck is shit enough.

    That's fucking work.

    2) cleaning - idk if it was as much work, that's really a function of how garbage you were at helping around the house. As somebody who no longer has to clean up after teenagers, It's a shitload less work because not only am I not cleaning for 4-5 people plus their friends, I'm also not having to fucking project manage the cleaning when I'm not doing it, and ensuring they don't destroy the expensive machinery through ignorance or carelessness when they are. So yeah, your dad did more work when you lived there than he did after you left. Think back to every time he told you to go clean your room and recognize that he had to pay attention to that shit as part of his project management duties, rather than the project and the mess both just not existing.

    It was work the whole time you lived there, regardless of whether you left for a week, because you weren't a pristine roommate and ain't no fucking way your dad transformed his house in one week of travel from "place where kids live" to "literally can't tell children live in this house at all".

    Broadly:

    The core responsibility of caring for, providing for, teaching, disciplining, managing, cleaning, and the dozen other jobs that go into parenting, are fundamentally different from non-child life both in kind and in volume.

    Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDeebaserNamrokEncNobodyiTunesIsEvilJaysonFourKristmas Kthulhu
  • AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    Sounds more like a case for UBI than parental assistance. I don't want kids. It looks like a lot of work and I'd rather have the spare resources. UBI lets everybody make the choice that's right for them without putting one group ahead of another.

    I mean, presumably in a UBI the children would also get benefits, which would be paid to the parents... so the parents would still be "ahead".

    Not that I agree that parents come out ahead in this or any other system. Kids cost a shitload both in real dollars and opportunities lost, and subsides will only partially offset.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
    shryke
  • PaladinPaladin regular Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    If you don't get the difference between me getting baked and going to throw disc with my friends, and a half asleep parent covered in literall shit getting dragged to the park by an 8 year old that's gonna throw disc for at best 5 minutes before they move over to every other piece of equipment in the park (that you're really hoping they don't break their head open on), I'm really not sure there's any way for you to grasp the context here.

    I'm not sure either, but we've got to try, else there will never be equity been parents and childless people.

    we've got to try, but not necessarily with every person

    Im just practicing for real life arguments where an influential person doesn't understand and also is the one that sets leave and benefits policy.

    As a person with no conflict of interest (or actively working against my interest), I have the unique opportunity to effectively advocate for parent co-workers. However, it's challenging to do so without being seen as a sucker, since I am advocating against myself. The rationale from the childless perspective must run deep, and this requires continual thought and challenge.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • SleepSleep regular Registered User regular
    edited September 12
    Its not a lie, and every parent will agree, "If you think you're prepared for kids, you aren't", folks have been trying for millennia to explain what it's like... and they've all failed to fully convey what it is like, and we're never gonna be able to distill it down to a digestible post here. It is a topic so extensive we have multiple threads about it. The real honest truth is that unless you've been exposed to raising children or being employed in childcare you really aren't gonna understand the mental toll it takes or how children change every task they are involved in.

    Sleep on
    spool32KetarSo It GoesAridholNobodyiTunesIsEvillonelyahavaKristmas Kthulhu
  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    Last night I woke up at 3:00AM because my son wet the bed. Our bed. He came into our room about an hour earlier, cuddled up next to dad and sometime later, pissed all over me. So my wife and I had to wake up. Strip the bed. Thank Christ we have a mattress cover. Throw down baking soda anyway. Get into a minor exhausted fight over putting the baking soda down. Calm down a wailing 4 year old. Take a shower. Then go to sleep in our new stations (couch for me, twin bed with Captain Pisspants for her) and wake up at 6:00 to start the day.

    But yeah. Parenting. Easy Peasy throwing frisbees all day.

    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
    spool32KetarSleepEncDr. Phibbs McAtheyiTunesIsEvilJaysonFourlonelyahavaIncenjucarKristmas Kthulhu
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Babysitters get $15 an hour or something these days and daycare can be $Texas, so that would imply that childcare isn’t just some easypeasy activity that can be half assed in between rounds of Fortnite or whatever.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Aioua wrote: »
    Sounds more like a case for UBI than parental assistance. I don't want kids. It looks like a lot of work and I'd rather have the spare resources. UBI lets everybody make the choice that's right for them without putting one group ahead of another.

    I mean, presumably in a UBI the children would also get benefits, which would be paid to the parents... so the parents would still be "ahead".

    Not that I agree that parents come out ahead in this or any other system. Kids cost a shitload both in real dollars and opportunities lost, and subsides will only partially offset.

    Like, maybe it's ok that people get different amount of benefits depending on the situation.

    People with special needs get extra funding all the damn time.

    AiouaSleep
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