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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Doing armchair game design, three proposals that I would like to try out (I have nowhere near the required hubris to confidently assert that these would actually improve the game):

    1) A canonized wavedash. Rather than being a quirk of the interaction between the airdodge and the landing logic, this would be a gesture with its own button (mapped to L by default, taking over one of the redundant shield buttons). You press the "slide" button and a direction while in a neutral state, and your character gets a quick boost in the indicated direction with sparks coming out of their feet. The slide recharges while your character's feet are on the ground, meaning you can use the slide to apply some force to your character in midair, but only once without landing. This takes over the in-air movement function of the air-dodge, which is now executed strictly in-place.

    2) Chip damage through shields. Mostly this is just me not liking the ability to completely nullify incoming damage by sending it to a temporary, regenerating buffer. Attacks that aren't completely whiffed should progress the game toward an end state.

    3) This one is the weirdest and probably least necessary, but I'd like to revise how damage is handled to make 100% an objective "danger point" for all characters regardless of weight. The core components of this change are:
    - Knockback is the same for all characters regardless of weight. 10% damage worth of knockback sends both Peach and Bowser flying by the same amount when they have the same accumulated damage. Consequently, 10% damage has the same ability to KO both Peach and Bowser when they're at 100%.
    - Damage inflicted scales in proportion to the weight of the two combatants. If Peach hits Bowser for 10%, that attack has 10% worth of knockback, but adds less than 10% damage to Bowser (because Peach is significantly lighter than he is). Likewise, if Bowser hits Peach for 10%, that attack still only has 10% worth of knockback, but adds more than 10% to Peach.
    - I am not sure whether the final knockback for a hit should be assessed before or after applying the damage. If it's assessed before applying the damage, then a 10% damage attack sends Bowser and Peach flying by the same amount when they're hit at 0%. If it's assessed after applying the damage, they go flying by different amounts, relative to that hit, which sort of puts us back in the original situation I'm trying to work around since lighter characters get KOed at earlier %s than heavier ones by the same attacks. (The former model makes 100% mean "the next smash attack you take will KO you". The latter makes 100% mean "if you take a smash attack that raises your damage over 100%, it will KO you".)
    - This would require rebalancing most characters' base damage, since heavyweights will be receiving a significant damage boost from the weight scaling. (That is, both Bowser's f-smash and Peach's f-smash could be tuned to do 10% damage or close to it, because even though Bowser's has far worse frame data his high weight leads to it inflicting much more damage on-hit.)

    The idea behind this change is to make the damage reporting objective per-character. If knockback has the same effect regardless of weight, then every character is in danger of being KOed regardless of weight at the same percentage (which presumably would be tuned to 100%). But if the damage inflicted scales with weight, then heavies accumulate damage slower, letting them stay in the fight longer. This would also, I feel, help mitigate the "combo food" effect with big-body heavies, since they react to attacks the same as every other character does rather than remaining within range of follow-up attacks.

    ... I also feel as though this is all very difficult to explain, so if I've failed to get my point across don't hesitate to let me know. :biggrin: (And, certainly, the fact that it takes explaining is a strong argument in favor of the current system, where all you need to understand is that heavier guys do more damage and survive easier even when they have more damage on them.)

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero The new film by Quentin Koopantino Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Speaking of Smashlikes, that long-rumored Warner Bros mashup thing was announced. It'll be free to play but supported by in-game purchases. Also it'll be season-based, with new characters added as things go along. The roster so far:

    Batman, voiced by Kevin Conroy
    Superman, voiced by George Newbern
    Wonder Woman, voiced by Abby Trott
    Harley Quinn, voiced by Tara Strong
    Shaggy (Scooby-Doo), voiced by Matthew Lillard
    Bugs Bunny (Looney Tunes), voiced by Eric Bauza
    Arya Stark (Game of Thrones), voiced by Maisie Williams
    Jake the Dog (Adventure Time), voiced by John DiMaggio
    Finn the Human (Adventure Time), voiced by Jeremy Shada
    Steven Universe, voiced by Daniel DiVenere
    Garnet (Steven Universe), voiced by Estelle
    Tom and Jerry, voiced by Eric Bauza
    Reindog (an original character for MultiVersus), voiced by Andrew Frankel

    https://youtu.be/IQ5zCua6s6s

    This is Player First Games', uh, first game, so who knows if it'll be any good. Coming everywhere except Switch for some reason.

    Well it has actual voice acting, so it's already looking better than that Nickelodeon embarrassment.

    cs6f034fsffl.jpg
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Well it has actual voice acting, so it's already looking better than that Nickelodeon embarrassment.

    Which started going on massive sale almost immediately after it came out. That makes me wonder if they got overly excited when the reveal got some buzz and they printed too many copies without noticing people were already figuring out it was crappy.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    Crippl3 wrote: »
    Nintendo of America
    @NintendoAmerica
    Confirmed. Ready your A-game, Super #SmashBros competitors. We've partnered with @PandaGlobal to launch the first officially licensed Super Smash Bros. championship circuit in North America, coming 2022!

    #SmashBrosUltimate #SmashBrosMelee

    Nintendo is finally officially sponsoring and licensing a Smash circuit, for Ultimate and Melee.

    Nintendo actually recognizing and sponsoring competitive Melee after years? This is actually amazing. Excited to see what comes from it for both Melee and Ultimate.

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I was going to say that Multiverse cast thing was weird... but then I remembered that Lego Dimensions was WB too. And holy crap was the IP proliferation off the walls. I can only imagine the same guy that worked on that is working on this. A guy I would characterize as "Middle aged stoner just picking his favourite characters from the 80's and 90's".

    "massive toke* "Ok here me out. Batman. Mary McFly. Mr. T. Aaaaaaaaannnnnnd "massive toke* Wicked Witch of the West."

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    Well it has actual voice acting, so it's already looking better than that Nickelodeon embarrassment.

    Which started going on massive sale almost immediately after it came out. That makes me wonder if they got overly excited when the reveal got some buzz and they printed too many copies without noticing people were already figuring out it was crappy.

    Is the game crappy or just underfunded? I trust Ludosity with the basic gameplay elements, and they already have experience making a Smash clone.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    I appreciate that they're leaning into the Ultra Instinct Shaggy meme

    BahamutZERO.gif
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular

    I see the writer of this article has also mastered Aria's techniques, based on the final line of the article.

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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    I hope WB learned from Nick and doesn’t lean on Smashers as indication the game is popular. No doubt Hungrybox and the usual suspects will be making “BETTER SMASH!?” videos and hyping it up, but they will go right back to Melee and Ultimate a week after launch.

    In the past four weeks, Hbox has done like eight NASB videos, and that includes clips under a minute long. Even after the first big patch that fixed private lobbies, he has one video covering the notes and nothing else in the two weeks since.

    Don’t rely on lifelong smash pros to prop up your game. They know which title keeps the light on, and until your game has proven itself they’re going to get their YouTube views and pivot back to Daddy Sakurai.

    YL9WnCY.png
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    rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    Is no one else bothered that a PS5 smash clone is running at like 20 FPS and somehow looks worse than Smash? This looks as slow as shit. Even nicktoons managed 60 on Switch.

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    CruorCruor Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    It's bonkers to me how they were able to pump the money into getting original voice actors to reprise roles, but didn't put that same sort of money into making sure the game ran well.

    Maybe the slowdown is just in this early build? I guess we'll have to wait and see how it actually runs whenever it comes out.

    I am very amused that they've finally made Ultra Instinct Shaggy a reality.

    Cruor on
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    EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    I admit it's weird how hard WB keeps going for the "All our properties are an interconnected universe!" thing. I thought it was cool when the Lego Batman movie did it, but it loses some of its luster each time.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    At least in a few cases, it looked like they were slowing the game down so you could see the gameplay aspect they were describing. The framerate did seem a bit janky even at full speed, though, which is concerning.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Smash still the best at managing an art style that feels true to the characters and yet they don’t horribly clash with each other. Like yeah Mario looks a bit more realistic with his denim details, but he also somehow doesn’t look out of place next to Fox or Marth or Kazuya.

    Meanwhile Multiversus struggling

    YL9WnCY.png
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I'd say the only one in Smash that kinda feels out of place is Steve. He's faithful to the Minecraft style, but that was never going to look anything other than alien in a world not made out of cubes.

    ...I'd kinda like to see what a sprite-based demake of Smash would look like. I imagine Steve would fit in more easily with visible pixels.

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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Kupi wrote: »
    Doing armchair game design, three proposals that I would like to try out (I have nowhere near the required hubris to confidently assert that these would actually improve the game):

    1) A canonized wavedash. Rather than being a quirk of the interaction between the airdodge and the landing logic, this would be a gesture with its own button (mapped to L by default, taking over one of the redundant shield buttons). You press the "slide" button and a direction while in a neutral state, and your character gets a quick boost in the indicated direction with sparks coming out of their feet. The slide recharges while your character's feet are on the ground, meaning you can use the slide to apply some force to your character in midair, but only once without landing. This takes over the in-air movement function of the air-dodge, which is now executed strictly in-place.

    2) Chip damage through shields. Mostly this is just me not liking the ability to completely nullify incoming damage by sending it to a temporary, regenerating buffer. Attacks that aren't completely whiffed should progress the game toward an end state.

    3) This one is the weirdest and probably least necessary, but I'd like to revise how damage is handled to make 100% an objective "danger point" for all characters regardless of weight. The core components of this change are:
    - Knockback is the same for all characters regardless of weight. 10% damage worth of knockback sends both Peach and Bowser flying by the same amount when they have the same accumulated damage. Consequently, 10% damage has the same ability to KO both Peach and Bowser when they're at 100%.
    - Damage inflicted scales in proportion to the weight of the two combatants. If Peach hits Bowser for 10%, that attack has 10% worth of knockback, but adds less than 10% damage to Bowser (because Peach is significantly lighter than he is). Likewise, if Bowser hits Peach for 10%, that attack still only has 10% worth of knockback, but adds more than 10% to Peach.
    - I am not sure whether the final knockback for a hit should be assessed before or after applying the damage. If it's assessed before applying the damage, then a 10% damage attack sends Bowser and Peach flying by the same amount when they're hit at 0%. If it's assessed after applying the damage, they go flying by different amounts, relative to that hit, which sort of puts us back in the original situation I'm trying to work around since lighter characters get KOed at earlier %s than heavier ones by the same attacks. (The former model makes 100% mean "the next smash attack you take will KO you". The latter makes 100% mean "if you take a smash attack that raises your damage over 100%, it will KO you".)
    - This would require rebalancing most characters' base damage, since heavyweights will be receiving a significant damage boost from the weight scaling. (That is, both Bowser's f-smash and Peach's f-smash could be tuned to do 10% damage or close to it, because even though Bowser's has far worse frame data his high weight leads to it inflicting much more damage on-hit.)

    The idea behind this change is to make the damage reporting objective per-character. If knockback has the same effect regardless of weight, then every character is in danger of being KOed regardless of weight at the same percentage (which presumably would be tuned to 100%). But if the damage inflicted scales with weight, then heavies accumulate damage slower, letting them stay in the fight longer. This would also, I feel, help mitigate the "combo food" effect with big-body heavies, since they react to attacks the same as every other character does rather than remaining within range of follow-up attacks.

    ... I also feel as though this is all very difficult to explain, so if I've failed to get my point across don't hesitate to let me know. :biggrin: (And, certainly, the fact that it takes explaining is a strong argument in favor of the current system, where all you need to understand is that heavier guys do more damage and survive easier even when they have more damage on them.)

    1.) Please no. We have a dash, we don't need some weird, esoteric speed boost that doesn't have any kind of natural movement analogue. We don't need to make the mistake of moving the series in an anti-casual direction by raising the skill floor with increasingly technical fundamentals. That's the opposite of what Smash Bros was designed to be. If you want more tactical options for how fast you move on the ground, there's walking & running. That's 3 speeds you can switch between, there is not a design need for a fourth ground speed that requires you to press an extra button to initiate it.

    2.) I really think most people are fine with how shields and parries work? I'm sorry you don't enjoy it, but there's lots of other fighting games to play if you want matches to be decided by who can back someone into a corner and chip them to death.

    3.) Edit: alright, came back to read this one. I don't hate it, but I feel like it's a lot of changes that largely don't amount to much. It is going to (at best) break even for heavies, since you are trading 'combo food' by making them easier to KO. Smash Bros favors speed so strongly that I don't think lightweights need the help of effectively raising the percentage they can be KO'ed at. Changing the damage attacks do based on the relative weight of the characters is going to drastically reduce clarity for players (and spectators) far more than normalizing what percentage people can be KO'ed at improves it. It would also be a ton of work since so much of the character balance would need to be overhauled. It just seems like too much effort for too little change. I'm not convinced the current ambiguity around 100% is even a problem, though.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Kupi, I always try to read your armchair design posts here and in other threads because I genuinely find them interesting (heck, I do that kind of thing all the time myself, I just don't usually have the confidence to share them with people). But I could swear this is at least the third time you've posted suggestions that amount to trying to turn modern Smash Bros back into Melee.

    Responding with 'but it's easier to input this way' is a kind of patronizing assumption that people who don't like stuff like wave dash just couldn't do it. But people don't like it for how it changes the feel of the game. And trying to say 'well you don't have to use it' is like telling someone they don't have to use special moves, or dodges, or grabs. If it's something every character can do then it is an essential part of the game.

    And it's not a situation where everyone can have their way, like turning items off or playing on Omega mode stages. If you tried to have a toggle for allowing stuff like wave dash in a match, then in order to avoid either setting feeling like shit, you'd need to balance-test two versions of every character. This would necessitate an even bigger roster cut than we are already anticipating for the sequel, which goes against one of the core appeals of Smash Bros, so it would be a terrible design choice.

    You need to realize that there's a lot of people who play current Smash, and not Melee on Dolphin, or Project M, or the indie game that tries to aim at the Melee crowd, because we prefer the direction Sakurai chose to take Smash Bros. We like Smash Bros For, and Ultimate, not what Smash was 20 years ago. Presumably this includes the people that make the series. There are other platform fighters that are designed for the kind of gameplay you want, why are you opposed to letting us have a series that caters to the variation we like?

    If you really need Nintendo to revisit Melee, why not push for an HD, online-capable port of it as a stop-gap between the end of Ultimate DLC and whenever a next-gen sequel becomes necessary. I feel like that's something other fighting game series have had success with. It wouldn't need Sakurai's involvement; it could be as conservative as the Mario Sunshine port in the 3D All-Stars collection, and if Nintendo can add online gameplay to the Nintendo Online Expansion Pack's N64 emulator version of Mario Kart 64, then it can't be too much hassle for them to add it to a Melee port. Heck, they might already be planning to do this kind of port for Melee when they add a Gamecube emulator for Nintendo Online.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
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    LucedesLucedes might be real Registered User regular
    i disagree with the implication in that post that anyone liked brawl when both melee and smash 4 are better in different ways, and it was the visible low point of the series.

    i think a different game with canon wavedashing could be cool. i think what made it real interesting in melee was that it’s completely unintended.

    damage reporting being objective per-character just leads to the same problem phrased differently - each character takes different amounts of damage from the same attack, which means your hits do weird and inconsistent damage and you have to either know their kill range anyway or constantly check their damage% on-screen.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    People liked brawl. There were and still are arguments about it, but people liked it. I know I did at the time. And you’ll still find people who look back on some stuff it did different, fondly. Yes, even that part.

    I wouldn’t argue that there’s some uniform dislike of it, anymore than I’d argue uniform like of it.

    Enlong on
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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    I can't emphasize enough how disappointed I would be if Sakurai et al caved and threw away years and years of design decisions to reintroduce weird unintuitive movement and other things from one iteration of the series because a subset of players are stuck in the past. I feel very strongly that going backwards like that would be a mistake for Smash Bros. Wavedashing is bad, what purpose does it serve? Sudden, fast movement? There's dashing and dodging. There are valid design reasons you can't act normally while doing those. Wavedashing breaks that.

    Go play Project M or one of its offshoots if you want to scoot around Final Destination.

    Edit: or design an indie platform fighter where the characters are all on skateboards so the wavedash physics feel natural.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    So there's three speeds of walking (tiptoe/walk/run) and dash. You can walk slow to very precisely control positioning. Or you can walk faster, while still being able to use your standard f-tilt and such. Dashing is quickest, but changes your attack options. There's tactical decision-making in which you use when.

    Wavedashing lets you move very fast while acting as though you are standing. It is objectively better than fast walking or dashing. And an environment where people can wavedash makes the utility of slow walking highly questionable. It makes the game have fewer good choices for movement.

    But Kupi's idea adds a regenerating resource mechanic to it, so you have to pick when to use it and when to save it? In the same post where they argue that blocking isn't sufficiently limited by its own regenerating resource mechanic and needs to be changed. So either block needs to be changed and their wavedash is still busted, or block is fine and their version of wavedash makes it an interesting choice.

    Or maybe block is fine, and people on both sides would be unhappy with a wavedash you can only use sometimes?

    Edit: Like I said, I usually love reading stuff like Kupi's idea factory posts. This just happened to be one I strongly disagree with. I hope that it isn't taken personally.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
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    cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Cruor wrote: »
    It's bonkers to me how they were able to pump the money into getting original voice actors to reprise roles, but didn't put that same sort of money into making sure the game ran well.

    Maybe the slowdown is just in this early build? I guess we'll have to wait and see how it actually runs whenever it comes out.

    I am very amused that they've finally made Ultra Instinct Shaggy a reality.

    Keep in mind that most of these actors are non-celebrity workhorse voice actors. They're an expense, but they're not going to buy a yacht with their payday, let's say. And I'm not sure Maisie Williams is that big of a star outside of GoT. (Which isn't to demean them -- they probably deserve more money than they typically get for doing such great characters.)

    I'd say the main takeaway from WB's game getting actors and Nick's not is that Nick's game had an absolutely tiny budget.

    As for the rough gameplay it's possible they felt forced to reveal now since the game's existence had already been leaked to hell.

    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
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    KupiKupi Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    H3Knuckles wrote: »
    Like I said, I usually love reading stuff like Kupi's idea factory posts. This just happened to be one I strongly disagree with. I hope that it isn't taken personally.

    Not in the slightest! :biggrin: I do realize that I tend to repeat myself on specific ideas and come back to certain themes, and much of my armchair game design comes from a place of making changes for the sake of making changes and then trying to justify why it would be better after the fact. I certainly appreciate a thoughtful response like yours to, say, a one-sentence dismissal.

    On the subject of "reject humanity, return to melee", I think it's because that was the version I played a thousand hours of with friends. Smash's progression also tracked with the good ol' "your friends move away, go into different careers, or just have sixty hour work weeks and you never hear from them again" trend that hits a lot of us and so I haven't played nearly as much Ultimate as Melee, so my impression that it feels slower over could simply be not having fully internalized the game-feel to the same extent.

    EDIT: Further on the same subject, I will say that Ultimate is pretty much the best the game's been in terms of balance and character content; one of the recent major tournaments had a top 16 with every player fielding a different main character; even at the top 32 was pretty close to having that many main characters as well. As someone who is more of a spectator than a player these days, that beats Melee's, like... five? six?... viable options handily.

    Kupi on
    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    Brawl wasn't the best smash but it was still a good game, also the first time online play existed. Sure it had warts like tripping, it wasn't perfect, was still very good though.

    BahamutZERO.gif
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Brawl is a good game, but a bad competitive game.

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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Also I think focusing on Doubles is interesting for Multiversus to pick as its niche, however the format has never been as popular as Singles so I wonder if that will bite the game in the butt later on. It does seem to have mechanics for doubles that aren’t necessarily tied to movesets, so certain characters aren’t useless in Singles. Like, Steven’s shield could be used to approach in 1v1, as could Bugs and his burrowing.

    Maybe the perks exist to help them pivot between modes. People not interested in doubles? Well, you can swap in some perks to make the character more viable in singles and just start balancing around that moving forward. At least I hope they have a Plan B.

    YL9WnCY.png
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    TaramoorTaramoor Storyteller Registered User regular
    From the look of things, Nick is by a team trying to copy Smash, and specifically Melee, while MultiVersus is trying to stand out a little bit and use a free-to-play model. Whether that will pay off or turn out like PlayStation Allstars remains to be seen.

    Sound design is a HUGE part of why Smash works so well, so Nick will always feel incomplete. It will be interesting to see how Muktiversus’ perks systems and team focus and daily challenges and whatnot stack up against Smash.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I'd kinda like it if perks had some aspect of altering special moves.

    I miss the custom moves thing Smash 4 had. I do not miss the way you had to unlock them, though.

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    EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    Sterica wrote: »
    Also I think focusing on Doubles is interesting for Multiversus to pick as its niche, however the format has never been as popular as Singles so I wonder if that will bite the game in the butt later on. It does seem to have mechanics for doubles that aren’t necessarily tied to movesets, so certain characters aren’t useless in Singles. Like, Steven’s shield could be used to approach in 1v1, as could Bugs and his burrowing.

    Maybe the perks exist to help them pivot between modes. People not interested in doubles? Well, you can swap in some perks to make the character more viable in singles and just start balancing around that moving forward. At least I hope they have a Plan B.

    What about the various Versus games, like Marvel Vs. Capcom? They had Doubles (or more) and were really popular.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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    EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    Also, unrelated to the gameplay, Multiversus is a really good name for this sort of thing, and it's a bit embarrassing it took friggin' WB to use it.

    You know what? Nanowrimo's cancelled on account of the world is stupid.
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    H3KnucklesH3Knuckles But we decide which is right and which is an illusion.Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Sterica wrote: »
    Also I think focusing on Doubles is interesting for Multiversus to pick as its niche, however the format has never been as popular as Singles so I wonder if that will bite the game in the butt later on. It does seem to have mechanics for doubles that aren’t necessarily tied to movesets, so certain characters aren’t useless in Singles. Like, Steven’s shield could be used to approach in 1v1, as could Bugs and his burrowing.

    Maybe the perks exist to help them pivot between modes. People not interested in doubles? Well, you can swap in some perks to make the character more viable in singles and just start balancing around that moving forward. At least I hope they have a Plan B.

    What about the various Versus games, like Marvel Vs. Capcom? They had Doubles (or more) and were really popular.

    No, they don't mean doubles as in 'tag team' play like MvsC. Multiversus' focus is on doubles as in 2 players vs 2 other players.

    H3Knuckles on
    If you're curious about my icon; it's an update of the early Lego Castle theme's "Black Falcons" faction.
    camo_sig2-400.png
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    BahamutZEROBahamutZERO Registered User, Moderator mod
    The only non-smash-like fighter I can think of that had a doubles mode was guilty gear isuka, which was not exactly the most popular iteration of that franchise.

    BahamutZERO.gif
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    Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Well Multiversus still seems to play like a Smash game. It has the open space, knockback and pits style.

    Isuka tried to do a 2d traditional fighter with some way of handling people on both sides, and I think I remember it having 2 horizonal planes you could switch between. Otherwise it played just like the GG it was based on at the time which I think was Accent Core.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Messed around a lot with Mii Gunner last night. First some games with Preffered Rules Off, and then some with rules on, to get some duels in.

    I'm still liking the Samus suite of specials for Mii Gunner (charge beam, missile, bomb), but I'm torn on the recovery move. On the one hand, lunar launch goes very high, but doesn't do damage going up, so it can be vulnerable. On the other hand, the cannon kick does hilarious damage and knockback, and is a very funny shield option, but it is very poor for recovery distance.


    Preferred rules off is a funny experience. You run into some pretty silly rules there.


    Oh, and I went and made some more Miis. 3 Bayonettas, actually. Two gunners (Samus and Fox costumes), and one Swordfighter (Link costume). I wish the Link hat didn't come with a wig, though. Sadly, there's no Peach or Daisy outfit for Mii fighters, to complete the set of Nintendo outfits for Bayonetta.

    Enlong on
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    Messed around a lot with Mii Gunner last night. First some games with Preffered Rules Off, and then some with rules on, to get some duels in.

    I'm still liking the Samus suite of specials for Mii Gunner (charge beam, missile, bomb), but I'm torn on the recovery move. On the one hand, lunar launch goes very high, but doesn't do damage going up, so it can be vulnerable. On the other hand, the cannon kick does hilarious damage and knockback, and is a very funny shield option, but it is very poor for recovery distance.

    I've always preferred the other Mii Gunner up+b. It goes far enough, and the extra control over your path makes it a lot better for getting around opponents. The cannon one is notable for being a great out-of-shield attack, much quicker than upsmash, but the recovery is...

    Bomb and missile are pretty much requirements for me on Gunner. Charged shot is the common pick for neutral special too, but the grenade launcher can be pretty funny. If you space it just right so that it bounces just off the edge and explodes under it, and just spam it, some characters just can't recover at all.

    I used to play a lot of Gunner. Still like them, but I find myself enjoying faster characters more these days. I got a lot of respect for people who make Gunner work competitively; there's a really good one in the Dominican Republic named Capitancito.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Yeah, the main question between charge and grenade is if I want the quick shot, or the wacky angles. Being able to just suddenly pop off a killing shot is a nice option to have, and it can be fun to stop charging just before hitting max. If you want long enough, the opponent might forget that you have a charged shot ready, since you aren't flashing.

    But if I'm sticking with missile, maybe I could give grenade a shot again; Missile works very well as a general-use projectile in a lot of situations. And bomb is just fun to use early on, or for planting on the edge of the stage.

    By the other up-b, are you referring to the one with no damage whatsoever? I haven't really tried that one out, but I could give it a shot. It's not like Gunner doesn't have other good out of shield options, too...

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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    Yeah, the main question between charge and grenade is if I want the quick shot, or the wacky angles. Being able to just suddenly pop off a killing shot is a nice option to have, and it can be fun to stop charging just before hitting max. If you want long enough, the opponent might forget that you have a charged shot ready, since you aren't flashing.

    But if I'm sticking with missile, maybe I could give grenade a shot again; Missile works very well as a general-use projectile in a lot of situations. And bomb is just fun to use early on, or for planting on the edge of the stage.

    By the other up-b, are you referring to the one with no damage whatsoever? I haven't really tried that one out, but I could give it a shot. It's not like Gunner doesn't have other good out of shield options, too...

    Yeah, the up+b that isn't an attack at all, but you can control your movement somewhat. You don't get full control, can maybe turn a max of 90 degrees, but it can be enough to get around would-be edgeguarders.

    The grenade is also fun for trapping people who grab the edge, and for bouncing it off platforms, but realistically I think the charge shot is probably overall better in most situations. One other note though, if you ever play doubles with team attack on, I recommend trying stealth side B for some real fun. Missiles are good there too but tend to cause havoc with you blowing up your teammate. The stealth explosion on the other hand can go right through them and explode people who are not paying attention to you at all.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited November 2021
    Yeah, I hear that the stealth shot is most comparable to a linear version of Din's Fire in how it travels, but it's nearly invisible as it does.

    I guess maybe it's more like Palutena's Explosive Flame, but with more control on where it bursts.

    side note: this kind of thing is why I miss having custom moves on characters other than Mii Fighters. I loved having the option to do stuff like give Bowser a real actual projectile (which reminded me of him shooting fire at you as you approach his hallway in super Mario 1). It does fit best with the customizability of Miis, though.

    Enlong on
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    AshtonDragonAshtonDragon AKA The Nix Registered User regular
    Custom moves were a neat idea in theory and could have possibly been workable in tournament environments, but... the way they were executed in Smash 4 were just too awful, in how they all needed to be unlocked (except the Miis and Palutena). Still, I enjoyed when people were briefly playing with them. I actually played as Mii Brawler at Evo in that first year when custom moves were being tested.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Yeah, the unlock process was just terrible (why are duplicates even a thing, for instance?). And I do get that some of the moves were just busted (like Donkey Kong's wind punch). Still, it's a neat idea I'd like to see return someday.

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