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Dem Primary: Shut Up About 2016

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  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    Phasen wrote: »
    Have there ever been any high ranking public defenders? I can't think of a one but rather than Harris I'd rather have someone like that.

    Good news, he's the front runner.

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  • PhasenPhasen Let's Disrupt the 2020 ElectionRegistered User regular
    If liberals didn’t participate in the justice system we’d all be screwed when the 100% conservative judicial system passed whatever vile laws Trump could think of.

    You remain Pure by staying out of difficult roles in politics, but that doesn’t help anyone.

    Enthusiastic is the one word you missed that is pretty important for the message sammich is saying there.

    psn: PhasenWeeple
    Styrofoam SammichpainfulPleasanceMan in the Mists
  • PhasenPhasen Let's Disrupt the 2020 ElectionRegistered User regular
    edited September 18
    PantsB wrote: »
    Phasen wrote: »
    Have there ever been any high ranking public defenders? I can't think of a one but rather than Harris I'd rather have someone like that.

    Good news, he's the front runner.

    I wouldn't mind Biden as AG I suppose, but he is pretty old. I coulda been clearer about why I was asking about Public Defenders.

    Phasen on
    psn: PhasenWeeple
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Spending about a year as a public defender 50 years ago doesnt weigh much against his legislstive history.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Phasen wrote: »
    Have there ever been any high ranking public defenders? I can't think of a one but rather than Harris I'd rather have someone like that.

    High ranking what? How the heck would you become a high ranking "thankless public service job that nobody wants to fund or even pretend is important"? It's basically anathema to the whole concept of high ranking.

    Generally if you're on the fast track in law you wouldn't be caught dead near a PD job. Which is horrible and stupid but the system we've got.

    SleeppainfulPleasanceBigJoeMHarry DresdenJuliusMidnite
  • PhasenPhasen Let's Disrupt the 2020 ElectionRegistered User regular
    Phasen wrote: »
    Have there ever been any high ranking public defenders? I can't think of a one but rather than Harris I'd rather have someone like that.

    High ranking what? How the heck would you become a high ranking "thankless public service job that nobody wants to fund or even pretend is important"? It's basically anathema to the whole concept of high ranking.

    Generally if you're on the fast track in law you wouldn't be caught dead near a PD job. Which is horrible and stupid but the system we've got.

    Yeah I know traditionally they are not given high positions but Democrats would do well to elevate those people.

    psn: PhasenWeeple
    DevoutlyApathetic
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Point of order about lawyers:
    There are plenty of high-speed lawyers who are public defenders early in their career. Their pay/importance is also far from uniform—a Delware PD, for example, is hitting six-figures in a couple of years.

    The perception of few “high-ranking” defenders is because rising in defense work generally means switching to private practice where there’s far more money/prestige. By contrast, promotion for prosecutors stays in government service.

    I don’t think “Copmala” is killing Harris’ campaign, but I do think it’s telling that she can’t come up with something to balance it out.

    As others have said, she hasn’t really laid why she should be President. I hate to use the phrase “inspiring candidate,” but you have to be about something more than “I am politician, give me power, om nom.”

    Of course, I think who the candidate is should be of secondary importance to removing Trump from power. It’s always better to get 30% or 40% of what you want than 0%, however much it stings.

    If the Dems run Skeletor, every voter left of Lindsey Graham should be planting campaign signs and smiling while they do it.
    Skeletor-Mum-Ra 2020

    We have the power!

    THAC0Fencingsax
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mattberman/elizabeth-warren-joe-biden-poll

    Here's an analysis of second choice for all the major candidates.

    1st choice Warren:
    Sanders 21
    Pete 21
    Harris 20
    Biden 13
    Booker 6

    1st choice Biden:
    Warren 37
    Harris 14
    Pete 10
    ??? 10
    Sanders 7

    1st choice Sanders
    Warren 59 (this is new)
    Gabbard 11
    ??? 8
    Biden 5
    Harris 4
    Bernie 3 (the Bernie or bustiest, I guess)

    1st choice Pete
    Warren 36
    Biden 18
    Harris 13
    Yang 8
    ??? 6

    1st choice Harris:
    Warren 57
    Biden 13
    Castro 6
    Pete 5
    Klobuchar 4

    I'm such a good pundit. I said in February Warren would win because she was everyone's second choice.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited September 18
    I think there would/will be a lot more analysis of harris' record if/when she becomes more of a challenge to the front-runners; right now nobody's hitting her because there isn't much reason to hit her

    I do think her record as a prosecutor makes her look bad; she seems to have had the view that every problem could be solved by prosecuting someone (truancy, drug abuse, etc) which doesn't exactly bode well for her performance in an office that has vastly more power at its direction

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

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  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

    The most recent debate may have changed people's minds.

    CelestialBadgerQuidMan in the MistsFencingsaxElldrenDouglasDanger
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

    Prophesies are nonsense. Magic cannot see into the future.

  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Consolidations of the post debate polls from Vox

    Biden stayed steady. Warren gained in some. Bernie was steady in most polls. I would say the rest are *ehh*.

    Overall a mix of the polls did have Warren going up a bit.

    03x29di.png
  • Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    issue with Warren coming across as an educator is that it implies a power imbalance - i am educating you, meaning i am smarter than you and have authority over you

    this is broadly what people don't like about liberals - the sense of constantly being treated like they're stupid for not getting it

    Styrofoam SammichNobeardJulius
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    It's not an insurmountable issue, and honestly one that's going to be everpresent regardless. I don't think you're going to find any Democrats that opponents won't attempt to qualify as 'smug' regardless of their actual conduct.

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    It's not an insurmountable issue, and honestly one that's going to be everpresent regardless. I don't think you're going to find any Democrats that opponents won't attempt to qualify as 'smug' regardless of their actual conduct.

    Hes not talking about opponents.

    Commander ZoomJulius
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    She ties stories to her lessons, strengthening their relevancy. She is a "cool" teacher.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited September 19
    Cantido wrote: »
    She ties stories to her lessons, strengthening their relevancy. She is a "cool" teacher.

    Some people, unfortunately, believe / have been taught / have internalized that there is no such thing.
    And will not give her the chance to prove it.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

    Things change. Warren has been the only candidate seeing what looks like a real shift in the polls recently, so this might just be another part of that.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    It is an unusually good poll for Warren, showing her leading nationally. It's probably a little generous, but yeah. That could be the Bernie supporters tuning more as the debate schedule increases and noticing how he and Warren are ideological (and political, honestly) allies.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

    Things change. Warren has been the only candidate seeing what looks like a real shift in the polls recently, so this might just be another part of that.

    So far it looks mostly like her pulling politically active and relatively well off voters from the also-rans.

    This is of course good for her but these are likely safe votes anyway. Crimson King is talking about her ability to appeal to less dedicated voters and given her numbers with undereducated and poor voters theres remaining cause for concern

    Crimson King
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

    Things change. Warren has been the only candidate seeing what looks like a real shift in the polls recently, so this might just be another part of that.

    So far it looks mostly like her pulling politically active and relatively well off voters from the also-rans.

    This is of course good for her but these are likely safe votes anyway. Crimson King is talking about her ability to appeal to less dedicated voters and given her numbers with undereducated and poor voters theres remaining cause for concern

    Who knows how those will show themselves. Probably once a candidate says something meme worthy

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    The whole "they don't like her because they don't like teachers" thing feels perilously close to "they don't like because they're stupid." I also don't think using such a broad and nebulous generalization to diagnose a specific problem is going to work very well.

    There are plenty of reasons someone might not support, or even like, Warren that aren't some deep-seeded anti-education bias.

    I'm a Warren supporter, but I can understand why someone might not be.

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    The whole "they don't like her because they don't like teachers" thing feels perilously close to "they don't like because they're stupid." I also don't think using such a broad and nebulous generalization to diagnose a specific problem is going to work very well.

    There are plenty of reasons someone might not support, or even like, Warren that aren't some deep-seeded anti-education bias.

    I'm a Warren supporter, but I can understand why someone might not be.

    That's not really the idea. It's a communication style thing not an anti education thing.

    Julius
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 19
    The whole "they don't like her because she sounds like she's smarter then them" mostly seems like some random thing that isn't supported by any evidence.

    I'm not sure what the basis of it is supposed to be.

    shryke on
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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 19
    Theres two seprate claims there. "These voters dont like teachers" is nonsensical gibberish, but "these voters already feel like Democrats are too condescending and her professorial speaking style does her no favors in this regard" is likely true.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    Theres no seprate claims there. "These voters dont like teachers" is nonsensical gibberish, but "these voters already feel like Democrats are too condescending and her professorial speaking style does her no favors in this regard" is likely true.

    We will see as time goes on. If her numbers solidify there, then it isn't true.

    Sadly for all our speculation, time will supply the only evidence we are going to get.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Theres no seprate claims there. "These voters dont like teachers" is nonsensical gibberish, but "these voters already feel like Democrats are too condescending and her professorial speaking style does her no favors in this regard" is likely true.

    Why is it likely true?

    Fencingsax
  • Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    i'm basing it on my experience going around talking to voters and getting a sense of how people think. i haven't, like, done a survey

    spool32Julius
  • No-QuarterNo-Quarter Nothing To Fear But Fear ItselfRegistered User regular
    Theres no seprate claims there. "These voters dont like teachers" is nonsensical gibberish, but "these voters already feel like Democrats are too condescending and her professorial speaking style does her no favors in this regard" is likely true.

    I agree with this. It's not fair to Warren, but it's the truth.

    I've plugged this before, but Tom Nichols wrote a book about this stuff and there are absolutely segments of the population that feel looked down upon, frustrated, with. and angry at people they view as "smarter" than them.

    https://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-death-of-expertise-tom-nichols/1122713126?ean=9780190469436&st=PLA&sid=BNB_ADL+EBooks+Generic+Mobile+Medium&sourceId=PLAGoNA&dpid=tdtve346c&2sid=Google_m&gclid=CjwKCAjwq4fsBRBnEiwANTahcDhsIcMvKoNq4VEKxbrGu7712947uyvupx1oQtIhUTxaNyKJBbDwyRoCNvsQAvD_BwE

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    It's all conjecture, but conjecture provides insight on the mindset of others, allowing you to tailor your future arguments for maximum effect.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
    Julius
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    The whole "they don't like her because she sounds like she's smarter then them" mostly seems like some random thing that isn't supported by any evidence.

    I'm not sure what the basis of it is supposed to be.

    It's the inverse if the "Seems like someone I'd like to have a beer with" effect.

    No-QuarterJulius
  • Crimson KingCrimson King Registered User regular
    i mean a lot of the people our society chooses to recognise as "smart" are actually pretty dumb. university professors are often very bad at their jobs, for example

    wandering
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    I agree her failure to gain traction is more a symptom of lacking a message or niche and not her record but claims that criticisms of her record are bad faith or whatever are dumb.

    That Biden / Warren figure seems off. Hasn't the story been that Biden and Bernie are the 2nd choice for each other's voters since the start?

    Prophesies are nonsense. Magic cannot see into the future.

    It's not prophecy, it's people admitting who they'd vote for in second place. Prophecy would be saying this is true without doing any polling to gauge the voting populations feeling on the subject.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    i mean a lot of the people our society chooses to recognise as "smart" are actually pretty dumb. university professors are often very bad at their jobs, for example

    The university professors I know are very smart, smarter than me for sure.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited September 19
    I would bet that most university professors have a lot of expertise in their field of study. The problem is when you extrapolate ‘they are smart here, so they must be smart there as well’

    See: Ben Carson.

    It’s why I’m very endeared by Warren just straight up taking other people’s plans on things and saying ‘yes, that’s good, let’s do that.’ Being smart enough to know when they’ve heard a good idea, even if it isn’t theirs, is a quality I really want on a President.

    Javen on
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  • themightypuckthemightypuck MontanaRegistered User regular
    i mean a lot of the people our society chooses to recognise as "smart" are actually pretty dumb. university professors are often very bad at their jobs, for example

    The university professors I know are very smart, smarter than me for sure.

    In context one would hope so. But smart people in one subject can be not smart in others.
    My dad was a Professor of History and he was a smart guy in his field but (RIP Dad) was a complete idiot when it came to things like money. He grew up very poor and even though he had a good job his kids also grew up pretty (but less) poor. Because he was a Prof, many of my childhood friends were from that culture and it always amazed me how rich they were.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, they aren’t universal geniuses or anything but they are always very sharp and interesting to talk to. I like academics.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, they aren’t universal geniuses or anything but they are always very sharp and interesting to talk to. I like academics.

    Me too, but that exact thing can feel intimidating and condescending. It's not guaranteed - you can be an academic and not come off that way. I'm not sure Warren pulls it off.

    Julius
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    The elements of being "smart" are not necessarily proportional or related. Most intellectual achievements are gained by experience and hard work. The brain does what it does best - adapts to the problem that the world presents it - and if it is functioning properly, rewards proportional to effort over the long term. The basic elements governing intellectual achievement can be laterally applied, but they are basic and require effort and investment. This is what "smart" people fail to, or more accurately don't care to realize: it is the initial framework of skills that must be applied when learning something new.

    In Ms. Warren's defense, this is why people who teach are often best suited to learn - they constantly expose themselves to the primordial battle of early education. That is, until they become more and more specialized and their experiences etch themselves into a once plastic and agile brain. Adaptation is then sacrificed for expertise. This is a rewarding sacrifice, but those who must have the best of both worlds and a willingness not to rest on their laurels can easily retain this basic mental flexibility by constantly learning new skills or choosing a career that demands more breadth.

    The truth of academia is that while it retains a good number of intelligent and mentally gymnastic people, that is certainly not a prerequisite to succeed, and often the best and brightest will go off and use their talents elsewhere. It is one of many professions with an aspect that could nurture and preserve a mind capable of excelling in a good many things. The actual individuals and titles that comprise its campus are really just individuals and titles. Sure, you won't find a neurosurgeon in a coal mine, but that's because you're looking for a neurosurgeon, not a person with a cunning and gifted mind.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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