DC! Thread Title Update

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  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    And now it looks like we'll have to throw Warren Ellis on the pile.


    Older men in comics grooming and trying to sleep with younger women/fans is not new. And as an industry, as creators who talk but only amongst ourselves, we've failed to protect these women despite knowing what they do, or thinking we might know.

    I was 19 when I first entered the world of comics and was immediately contacted by older, married, successful creators who were 15+ years older than me. Why were they doing that?

    I feel it viscerally in my bones that teen girls need to be protected. Who is going to protect them from the Cameron Stewarts, Brian Woods, Warren Ellises of this industry if not us?

    Yeah, those last two are from my own personal experiences.

    Warren Ellis is undoubtedly a force for good in comics, and has been for the last twenty years or so. He's given opportunities, money, and support to marginalised creators in comics and outside it. He's also done some fucked up things to young women. Both statements can be true.

    He doesn't need to be cancelled or whatever. Instead ask how we get to a point where successful men don't prey on young women, maliciously or not. A point where those young women see the attention of men like that as damaging and not flattering. How do we change that culture?

  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    wrote: »
    Warren Ellis is undoubtedly a force for good in comics, and has been for the last twenty years or so. He's given opportunities, money, and support to marginalised creators in comics and outside it. He's also done some fucked up things to young women. Both statements can be true.

    He doesn't need to be cancelled or whatever.

    :eh:
    wrote: »
    Instead ask how we get to a point where successful men don't prey on young women, maliciously or not. A point where those young women see the attention of men like that as damaging and not flattering. How do we change that culture?

    Not giving those men a free pass just because you otherwise agree with their politics, like some kind of fucked up secular Indulgence system, would probably be a good start.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Yeah like

    Katie West can have her opinion but if Ellis' behavior is bad enough for her to mention it and describe it as "fucked up things to young women" then any good shit he has done is absolutely invalidated

    You can't overlook predatory behavior because someone is good in other parts of their life

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Possibly that's a saving throw to try to blunt the amount of hate and death threats she will receive for being brave like this. Anyone who wants to cancel the guy will not be slowed by her saying that.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    More stories are coming out about Ellis, which paint a history of abuse and preying on young, vulnerable women.

    Dude is done, as far as I am concerned. I ain't picking up another Ellis book.

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  • Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    wrote: »
    Warren Ellis is undoubtedly a force for good in comics, and has been for the last twenty years or so. He's given opportunities, money, and support to marginalised creators in comics and outside it. He's also done some fucked up things to young women. Both statements can be true.

    He doesn't need to be cancelled or whatever.

    :eh:
    wrote: »
    Instead ask how we get to a point where successful men don't prey on young women, maliciously or not. A point where those young women see the attention of men like that as damaging and not flattering. How do we change that culture?

    Not giving those men a free pass just because you otherwise agree with their politics, like some kind of fucked up secular Indulgence system, would probably be a good start.

    I certainly don't recall seeing anyone suggesting a program of understanding and rehabilitation instead of cancellation for Eddie Berganza.

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Katie West has now deleted that thread, probably in an attempt to forestall at least some of the abuse that would be directed at her, but based on her later tweet (and also all historical precedents of any time any woman has pointed out that a man is maybe not a saint) it did not work.

    Ellis was there when I was getting into comics, probably around the peak of his popularity, and a lot of those late-90s/early-2000s works were important to me, stuck around with me since. I always thought that he understood the seedier parts of the Internet/human experience, and was on the right side of things because of that. I guess I was very naive, and didn't know (and then, later, didn't recognize) that apparently all men who come into any position of influence immediately try to parley that into sex. Even if they seem good; even if they genuinely do some good. Fuckin' hell.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    edited June 17


    G Willow Wilson has chimed in. Echoing previous statements about Ellis and saying that she witnessed predatory behavior herself

    Most importantly she says it was an extremely open secret that in the late 90s-00s (she left comics for a time after so she can't comment on the period afterwards) that he did it and that essentially every professional in comics knew. Ellis was one of the gatekeepers at the time and if you were breaking into the business he, and a handful of other writers and artists, you had to make a good impression and get in their good graces. That was the only way in. There were no hiring initiatives or talent searches or even applications. It was entirely who you knew.

    Which makes a WHOLE LOT of big name comic creators seem, at best, complicit in this horrid behavior and at worst, abusers themselves.

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  • AlphaRomeroAlphaRomero Registered User regular
    Reading Batman Death Metal. Not every facet of Gotham's history has to be tied to bats. It was just a thing in a cave under his house. Now it's destiny, just like the stupid Web of Life stuff in Spider-Man. It's not a man being given opportunity to do good by chance and making good on that opportunity, it's just someone following a script.

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  • lwt1973lwt1973 King of Thieves SyndicationRegistered User regular
    "He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I don't want to enter any kind of dome with Zack Snyder

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  • SirEtchwartsSirEtchwarts Eyes Up Registered User regular
    I would face him in the Thunderdome

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Warren Ellis has a Sunday newsletter that I've been subscribed to for years. I wanted to see how he would address the accusations, if at all, and then I'm out. Well, I won't have to wait until Sunday, because he sent a statement via the newsletter about an hour ago.

    I can post it in its entirety if anyone wants, but I'm also OK not rebroadcasting an abuser's words. The TL;DR is that at the time he didn't understand that he was in a position of power, but should have. He admits to hurting people (without really explicitly naming the wrong-doing), and takes culpability and responsibility.

    Some of it sounds sincere and genuine. At the same time, I don't know that an apology can be an apology unless you say specifically and unambiguously the thing that you are apologizing for (but that might make him legally liable or something, eh?). Also, men accused of sexual misconduct need to fucking stop saying "I'm going to stop talking and listen", because (1) you should have been doing that already, (2) it doesn't even mean anything, and (3) it's not an actionable or externally-observable plan. "Listening" is not making true amends.

    Anyway, my opinion on any of this doesn't actually have any weight, it's not relevant. This is more relevant:

    I don't see how that can be balanced out by a "I messed up, I'm sorry, gonna be quiet now".

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    He didn't know he was in a position of power? Fuck him, he may not have been Morrison, but he wasn't that far.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    The whole "I didn't realize I was in a position of power" shit rings incredibly hollow with Wilson's comments. You can't be one of the gatekeepers and most influential creators in the industry and "not realize" you have a position of authority.

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  • Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    "I didn't realise I was in a position of power," says Warren Ellis, creator of the famous [checks notes] Warren Ellis Forum.

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    DJ Eebs wrote: »
    Followed through to that profile, came across this article:
    https://www.doctornerdlove.com/on-finding-out-your-heroes-are-monsters-or-detoxifying-comic-culture

    I have, of course, heard about Ellis's forums (seems like three-quarters of the creatives I love were on there), but didn't really know much about them. That article really illuminated a lot, and made me pull back on some of my more charitable reactions to Ellis's statement.

  • The Zombie PenguinThe Zombie Penguin Eternal Hungry Corpse Registered User regular
    edited June 19
    Fucking hell. Is there was a comics author who was my favourite , it was Ellis.

    Emphasis on was, because fuck him and fuck the horse he rode in on

    Screw this don't cancel him bullshit. Cancel the fuck out of him, and give the people he hurt or gatekept a chance to be heard

    (I also find myself wondering if his repeated artist issues and similar was a result of his behaviour)

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
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    DC produced this for Juneteenth, with art from Denys Cowan.

    Putting aside the fact that they couldn't even fill the graphic without doing repeats (SUPERMAN OF EARTH 23 is on there 3 times.)

    Naomi is a very noticeable absence. She's a new character, has a high profile and had her own solo book just last year but she ain't shown or named.

    Her name is Naomi McDuffie in honor of the late Dwayne McDuffie, something her creators got permission for from his widow.

    Denys Cowan is currently embroiled in a legal battle with said widow because he and the other Milestone founders cut her out of the rights and profits of Milestone by just...forming a new LLC and transferring the rights without including her.

    Fuckin ghoulish

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Three Amanda Wallers too, although she deserves it

    Bucketman
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Three Amanda Wallers too, although she deserves it

    Is this like the 3 Jokers thing?

    Bucketman
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Three Amanda Wallers too, although she deserves it

    Is this like the 3 Jokers thing?

    No this is a "what black characters do we have?" Thing

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Three Amanda Wallers too, although she deserves it

    Is this like the 3 Jokers thing?

    No, Amanda Waller is a very good character

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  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    I'm working out the logic in that image. If they did the least bit of effort, they could have filled up that cover. Firestorm, Josiah Power and several Legion members (Kid Quantums, XS, versions of Starboy and Invisible Kid) are the ones that come to mind. Mostly because Firestorm was in Injustice 2 and I have always been a Legion fan and have read relatively little DC otherwise.

    It doesn't seem to be a special that just starts the specific characters mentions on the cover.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Dizzy D wrote: »
    I'm working out the logic in that image. If they did the least bit of effort, they could have filled up that cover. Firestorm, Josiah Power and several Legion members (Kid Quantums, XS, versions of Starboy and Invisible Kid) are the ones that come to mind. Mostly because Firestorm was in Injustice 2 and I have always been a Legion fan and have read relatively little DC otherwise.

    It doesn't seem to be a special that just starts the specific characters mentions on the cover.

    Considering how corporate in general works, I am guessing this is a key phrase.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Eurogamer is reporting that two games are gonna be revealed at DC's upcoming digital convention SDCC alternative: Suicide Squad Kills the Justice League from Rocksteady and Gotham Knights from WB Montreal.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Zoe, while you're here, how about a thread title update?

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  • SirEtchwartsSirEtchwarts Eyes Up Registered User regular
    Man, I don't wanna kill Superman in a video game

    Unless it's an Injustice type thing, that could be okay

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  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    I never liked the aesthetics of the later Batman Rocksteady games, but yeah, they'll be a good fit for Suicide Squad.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    If they have developed a less awful aesthetic and the game is a goofy tongue in cheek tone (I am already imagining the title font of SUICIDE SQUAD with KILLS THE JUSTICE LEAGUE painted on by Harley or something) I am down

    Gotham Knights is reportedly a Court of Owls focused game and will let you play as the Bat-Family including Batgirl, Nightwing and Robin as well as Batman.

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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    I'll play any semi-decent game with my favorite characters in it regardless so I'm in on those games

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    If they let me play as Nightwing whenever I want then that game might as well be a Nightwing game cause I aint using the rest of the family

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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    If they let me play as Nightwing whenever I want then that game might as well be a Nightwing game cause I aint using the rest of the family

    Every time you start the game the camera pans up from the ground and pauses slightly on his ass

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Man, I don't wanna kill Superman in a video game

    Unless it's an Injustice type thing, that could be okay

    I feel like there's no way that Suicide Squad Kills The Justice League gets played straight

    Either it's a weird alt universe where the Suicide Squad is the world's last line of defense against a Justice League turned tyrannical

    Or they'll break ranks partway through and discover that like, Amanda Waller has been replaced by an alien shapeshifter and they need to rescue the real Waller

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I'll play Gotham Knights for sure
    Suicide Squad is a definite "wait and see"

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    If they let me play as Nightwing whenever I want then that game might as well be a Nightwing game cause I aint using the rest of the family

    Every time you start the game the camera pans up from the ground and pauses slightly on his ass
    It'll actually deviate from the third-person-over-the-shoulder camera that's so familiar and instead use the brand-new and patent-pending third-person-over-the-ass camera.

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  • JayKaosJayKaos Registered User regular
    It'll just be the ME2 Miranda conversation angle for the whole game.

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    adult swim caption overlaid/just below:

    [we know what you're here for]

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  • SirEtchwartsSirEtchwarts Eyes Up Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Man, I don't wanna kill Superman in a video game

    Unless it's an Injustice type thing, that could be okay

    I feel like there's no way that Suicide Squad Kills The Justice League gets played straight

    Either it's a weird alt universe where the Suicide Squad is the world's last line of defense against a Justice League turned tyrannical

    Or they'll break ranks partway through and discover that like, Amanda Waller has been replaced by an alien shapeshifter and they need to rescue the real Waller

    You know, that's probably true, I could be into that

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