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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Yeah, Booster and Harley (ain't really a spoiler, its been around for months and months) is an awful thing because it is entirely due to DC Editorial refusing to allow Harley/Ivy

    Like

    Straight up documented examples of them telling writers they can use the two characters together and making art that showed them being romantic be altered to be more "friendly"

    Shit SUCKS

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  • OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    Hmm, thought we were getting beyond the days of "they're just cousins".

    Fencingsax
  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    Owenashi wrote: »
    DC plans to release a new animated film based on Death In The Family. However, to give folks now the same option as they did back then, the film will offer viewers their choice of what happens at the critical moment; death, saved by Batman and as a new addition now saves himself. I put the trailer in the box because it's screencap spoils the results of one of the choices.


    While the death choice puts Jason into his Red Hood identity, the other two lead to him adopting other guises he's worn in DC, Red Robin being one of them.

    I'm not interested in watching any adaptation of Death in the Family that doesn't include Iran appointing the Joker as their ambassador to the U.N. just to troll the U.S.

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    Ethan Van Sciver is still a piece of shit:

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    Christ thats a hell a video to watch. Fuck all of those people.

  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    At this point I feel like I am only safe reading old Dennis O'Neil and Roger Stern comics.

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  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    Yeah, Booster and Harley (ain't really a spoiler, its been around for months and months) is an awful thing because it is entirely due to DC Editorial refusing to allow Harley/Ivy

    Like

    Straight up documented examples of them telling writers they can use the two characters together and making art that showed them being romantic be altered to be more "friendly"

    Shit SUCKS

    It's so weird because they were pretty explicitly romantic in the comics up until about a year ago I think? It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    FencingsaxshoeboxjeddyBucketman
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    Yeah, Booster and Harley (ain't really a spoiler, its been around for months and months) is an awful thing because it is entirely due to DC Editorial refusing to allow Harley/Ivy

    Like

    Straight up documented examples of them telling writers they can use the two characters together and making art that showed them being romantic be altered to be more "friendly"

    Shit SUCKS

    It's so weird because they were pretty explicitly romantic in the comics up until about a year ago I think? It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.
    It was never explicit as far as I am aware

    Lots of hints and flirty scenes but they never actually said HEY THEY ARE TOGETHER which is a very important part of the equation

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    Yeah, Booster and Harley (ain't really a spoiler, its been around for months and months) is an awful thing because it is entirely due to DC Editorial refusing to allow Harley/Ivy

    Like

    Straight up documented examples of them telling writers they can use the two characters together and making art that showed them being romantic be altered to be more "friendly"

    Shit SUCKS

    It's so weird because they were pretty explicitly romantic in the comics up until about a year ago I think? It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.
    It was never explicit as far as I am aware

    Lots of hints and flirty scenes but they never actually said HEY THEY ARE TOGETHER which is a very important part of the equation

    I dunno, they explicitly discussed being in a relationship in the Jimmy Palmiotti, Amanda Conner run. Ivy says that she doesn't want to be in a monogamous relationship with her, but that she will always be there for her and so on. They also slept together very explicitly, rather than winking about it like Batman Animated did. It came across as similar to Nightwing x Batgirl, in that the creators clearly felt it was the endgame relationship, but prevented it from locking in to allow for the story to keep going with them both doing different things. No idea what the different Harley writers did after that, haven't got to read any of those.

  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    Yeah, Booster and Harley (ain't really a spoiler, its been around for months and months) is an awful thing because it is entirely due to DC Editorial refusing to allow Harley/Ivy

    Like

    Straight up documented examples of them telling writers they can use the two characters together and making art that showed them being romantic be altered to be more "friendly"

    Shit SUCKS

    It's so weird because they were pretty explicitly romantic in the comics up until about a year ago I think? It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.
    It was never explicit as far as I am aware

    Lots of hints and flirty scenes but they never actually said HEY THEY ARE TOGETHER which is a very important part of the equation

    I dunno, they explicitly discussed being in a relationship in the Jimmy Palmiotti, Amanda Conner run. Ivy says that she doesn't want to be in a monogamous relationship with her, but that she will always be there for her and so on. They also slept together very explicitly, rather than winking about it like Batman Animated did. It came across as similar to Nightwing x Batgirl, in that the creators clearly felt it was the endgame relationship, but prevented it from locking in to allow for the story to keep going with them both doing different things. No idea what the different Harley writers did after that, haven't got to read any of those.

    Stjepan Šejić's first issue on Harley Quinn Black, White and Red (digital only) is about Harley and Ivy. I don't know if it's in continuity or if it's a follow-up to Harleen though.

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  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg

  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    it absolutely is not because of China

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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited July 31
    If I was given that directive I would put the colours of the lesbian flag in every panel and just, all of the obvious imagery out of spite.

    Panel 1. Booster sits in a chair reading a newspaper like a 1950’s archetypal husband.
    Booster: “Hello my love interest Harley, what do you prefer, cats or dogs?”

    Panel 2. Harley grips Booster’s shoulder intensely, the newspaper is folded down to show his worried face.
    Harley: “I just love pussy Michael. I cannot wait for a time when I can have pussy again.”

    Endless_Serpents on
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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited July 31
    i've typed and deleted like 6 drafts so far trying to put into words how much i hate the post above this one

    Garlic Bread on
    BlankZoe
  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I’m sorry @Garlic Bread

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I think ultimately the eternal nature of DC and Marvel comics means resolved plots must be unresolved. Ivy and Harley will get together again, just as Batman will defeat Joker, and Joker will escape once more.

    It leaves any other thread flat for me.

    What does this Booster x Harley chapter bring to the table for either character?

    But then, I’m the sort of person that was down for Batman retiring / leaving Gothem to start up Batman Inc.

    Nightwing is one of my favourite DC characters just for being allowed to exist. The power of that ass has broken through the cycle, and I’m so proud of him.

    Kayne Red Robe
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg
    They literally have a TV show with a lesbian lead and the Harley Quinn show has her actively bi the fuck are you talking about

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Yeah, the problem is much more that the specific people in charge of comics specifically have been garbage for... well they're garbage

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    Andy Joe
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    i can assure you that americans have never needed help to hate queers

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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg
    They literally have a TV show with a lesbian lead and the Harley Quinn show has her actively bi the fuck are you talking about

    yeah i've been loving stargirl but it's really weird that there are no openly queer characters considering, uh, every other DC show since at least 2012

    BlankZoe
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg
    They literally have a TV show with a lesbian lead and the Harley Quinn show has her actively bi the fuck are you talking about

    yeah i've been loving stargirl but it's really weird that there are no openly queer characters considering, uh, every other DC show since at least 2012
    Especially since there are a ton of teens on that thing

    I know Johns was more directly involved in that one and I wouldn't be surprised if his...decidedly conservative streak had something to do with it.

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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg
    They literally have a TV show with a lesbian lead and the Harley Quinn show has her actively bi the fuck are you talking about

    yeah i've been loving stargirl but it's really weird that there are no openly queer characters considering, uh, every other DC show since at least 2012
    Especially since there are a ton of teens on that thing

    I know Johns was more directly involved in that one and I wouldn't be surprised if his...decidedly conservative streak had something to do with it.

    that's my thoughts too but i can't see it lasting once it's fully moved to the cw

  • BedigunzBedigunz Registered User regular
    edited July 31
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg
    They literally have a TV show with a lesbian lead and the Harley Quinn show has her actively bi the fuck are you talking about

    yeah i've been loving stargirl but it's really weird that there are no openly queer characters considering, uh, every other DC show since at least 2012
    Especially since there are a ton of teens on that thing

    I know Johns was more directly involved in that one and I wouldn't be surprised if his...decidedly conservative streak had something to do with it.

    that's my thoughts too but i can't see it lasting once it's fully moved to the cw

    Outside of Yolanda and Courtney, have any of the child characters shown romantic interest in anyone?

    Bedigunz on
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  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    BlankZoe wrote: »
    It's like someone in Editorial suddenly decided that Harley is too popular to be queer or something.

    Peoples_Republic_of_China_map_symbol_horoscope.jpg
    They literally have a TV show with a lesbian lead and the Harley Quinn show has her actively bi the fuck are you talking about

    It's not about TV shows. It's about merchandising. T-shirts and tennis shoes and underwear. That's where the real money is.

    If Harley continues ascending to icon status, there will be signs of increased pressure to portray her as straight in other media. The comics are just the first to reflect policy changes because their production time is so short.

  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited July 31
    lmao if you think margot robbie's harley quinn isn't going to smooch ladies in her next movie (maybe not the suicide squad, but def bop2)

    Garlic Bread on
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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    lmao if you think margot robbie's harley quinn isn't going to smooch ladies in her next movie (maybe not the suicide squad, but def bop2)

    Robbie has straight up said that she wants to do Harley/Ivy in a sequel and included a hint at it in the animated sequence in this one

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  • ZonugalZonugal The Holiday Armadillo I'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered User regular
    I just passed 60% in DC Comic's Infinite Crisis novelization.

    And, I'm no psychologist, but I dare say Superboy-Prime has some anger issues.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    shit i can't believe i'm not gonna get my "Harley Quinn is in a lesbian relationship with Poison Ivy" brand tennis shoes

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  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    shit i can't believe i'm not gonna get my "Harley Quinn is in a lesbian relationship with Poison Ivy" brand tennis shoes

    You misunderstand. I'm not saying AT&T is going to change how Harley is portrayed on merchandise. I'm saying AT&T might be changing how Harley is portrayed universally, in order to sell her merchandise in certain nations with strict guidelines on what messages they allow to be conveyed to their people.

    It's a pattern we've been seeing in a lot of western popular culture lately.

  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    Yeah cuz a decade ago before globalism we had gays out the ass, corporations LOVED gays, if there was something that gigantic companies and western popular culture loved doing, it was catering to those of us who are queer, mmm, they can't get ENOUGH of it!

    Dogg 13 years ago gays couldn't get fuckin married in America. You are letting sinophobia blind you to the actual real and tangible homophobia in the country you live in.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    There are places in America it is still a VALID LEGAL DEFENSE to say you murdered a trans person because you were SCARED of them

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  • Garlic BreadGarlic Bread Registered User regular
    edited August 1
    shit i can't believe i'm not gonna get my "Harley Quinn is in a lesbian relationship with Poison Ivy" brand tennis shoes

    You misunderstand. I'm not saying AT&T is going to change how Harley is portrayed on merchandise. I'm saying AT&T might be changing how Harley is portrayed universally, in order to sell her merchandise in certain nations with strict guidelines on what messages they allow to be conveyed to their people.

    It's a pattern we've been seeing in a lot of western popular culture lately.

    where are some examples? i'm aware of lgbtqia+ stuff from the US being censored in some countries but that's not "universal portrayal"

    i'm not aware of companies making lgbtqia+ characters not that and if it's happened like you say i'd really like to know about it

    Garlic Bread on
  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    and like, the endgame of the argument, if it were in fact "oh we're homophobic because we want to sell to someone who's homophobic", that is still THEM being homophobic and not viewing us as people

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  • shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I'm willing to believe the Harley dating Booster thing is just terrible writer taste. They keep trying to pretend anyone likes Barry Allen as the Flash over Wally. And then threw Wally under a bus in Heroes In Crisis because people refused to like their guy more. It's not like Harley wasn't already bi, that was stated as canon a long ways back.

    (If you like Barry as the Flash more because of Flash TV, okay, but no other version of the character is similar to that version, so I don't know if you like comic Barry more).

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  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    shit i can't believe i'm not gonna get my "Harley Quinn is in a lesbian relationship with Poison Ivy" brand tennis shoes

    You misunderstand. I'm not saying AT&T is going to change how Harley is portrayed on merchandise. I'm saying AT&T might be changing how Harley is portrayed universally, in order to sell her merchandise in certain nations with strict guidelines on what messages they allow to be conveyed to their people.

    It's a pattern we've been seeing in a lot of western popular culture lately.

    where are some examples? i'm aware of lgbtqia+ stuff from the US being censored in some countries but that's not "universal portrayal"

    i'm not aware of companies making lgbtqia+ characters not that and if it's happened like you say i'd really like to know about it

    The Harley Quinn situation reminded me specifically of a controversy from late last year, where gaming company Hasbro, owners of the Magic: The Gathering trading card game, attempted to pass off a prior homosexual relationship held by one of the game's main characters, Chandra Nalaar, as just a phase, even going so far as to have Chandra claim that her type was not only men, but particularly macho men. This inexplicably sudden reversal in the character's portrayal came at the same time Hasbro was planning to expand the Magic: The Gathering property into other media, including a live action movie and an animated series on Netflix, leading many to conclude that the decision was made as a condition for getting this new media released in foreign markets that would disapprove of such a character.

    Hasbro has apologized for the decision and paid lip service to reversing it, but have not published any stories to back up that sentiment as of this post.

    Even the foreign censorship you describe in your post is done with not only Hollywood's consent, but their cooperation as well. Anonymous studio employees who contributed to the film Bohemian Rhapsody from two years ago revealed that the film had been intentionally constructed in such a way as to make references to Freddie Mercury's bisexuality as easy to edit out of the story as possible. This has become a common practice in modern Hollywood, and studio employees are sworn to secrecy to avoid tarnishing the industry's progressive reputation.
    and like, the endgame of the argument, if it were in fact "oh we're homophobic because we want to sell to someone who's homophobic", that is still THEM being homophobic and not viewing us as people

    My posts were not intended as a defense of AT&T or its subsidiary companies, and I apologize if they came across as such. If anything, the craven media conglomerates that eagerly bow to the demands of a tyrannical dictatorship whose human rights abuses are innumerable are even more unethical than the dictatorships themselves.

  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    The core reason that it's hard to buy that China influenced this decision at all is that the decision to get Harley into a hetero relationship is in a comics industry that maybe sells like, 200,000 copies of its best selling comics. That number likely goes up when you count digital and collections, but it's still an incredibly small part of their business, and it's also one that I do not think they really care all that much about making inroads with regard to selling comics in China, which is where they'd face pressure to change relationships like that.

    The highest profile Harley Quinn project is the Birds of Prey movie, which didn't touch on her bisexuality in any significant way, and while I believe Margot Robbie wants to make that a focal point of a sequel, there's...no real guarantee they're going to make a sequel, so...I'm not counting my chickens there. But her next highest profile project was the TV show, which make her relationship with Ivy probably the most important throughline of the show. If they were worried about China, they'd make changes there, not in a comic book China probably won't even see.

    And yeah, Hollywood has made concessions to the Chinese government in order to access that market. It's gross! But they weren't exactly flooding the cineplex with LGBT rep before they decided to fully commit to that market. Would Disney have Elsa come out as a lesbian in Frozen 3 if, hypothetically, China just barred all foreign films? I don't think anyone really thinks that Disney would actually go there. And frankly, companies like Warner Bros/AT&T and Disney are big enough that if they wanted to do it, they could just tell anyone who got mad about it to fuck off and everyone would just have to deal with it, eventually, but they won't. And I'm sure they love having China to hide behind when people ask them why they didn't do more.

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  • Ivan HungerIvan Hunger Registered User regular
    DJ Eebs wrote: »
    But her next highest profile project was the TV show, which make her relationship with Ivy probably the most important throughline of the show. If they were worried about China, they'd make changes there, not in a comic book China probably won't even see.

    As I said above, the production time on a comic book is minuscule compared to a television series. If this is an order that came from above, and I can think of no other reason why a character's portrayal would be reversed so abruptly, then it's possible the mandate simply hasn't caught up to other media yet.

    Another thing to consider is that, while the readership of a comic book is indeed much smaller than the audience for a TV show or movie, all TV and movies are inevitably cancelled, while the comics are published continuously. For this reason, if AT&T did wish to change the public's perception of a character, they may choose to begin with the comics.

  • tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks San DiegoRegistered User regular
    All of this said, I actually would enjoy seeing Booster trying to be a 50s sitcom dad, a la "Leave It To Booster." Maybe he travels to different eras to see if he can fit in, only to mess each one up in a comedic way that still teaches him a lesson.

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure that if Harley Quinn dating Booster were an attempt to stop Quinn being a lesbian that the ending of the Harley Quinn cartoon also would have been changed based on the timelines.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Speaking of Harley Quinn merch, did that shirt from BoP get sold anywhere?

    I better not have to say what shirt! Lol

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