But I thought he was in the Morlock arc of Uncanny between Rise and Fall and MX.
I don't think so, but I think even if they did have him in the background (certainly don't think he was one of the main Morlock characters featured there) I think Marvel would write it off as an art error rather than an incidental resurrection.
Leech was in Neverland, though, wasn't he? Or was that Artie? I think both of those are free and easy right now with no explanation about how they got out (though they were never shown to be have been executed in Weapon X).
If there's one thing that the X-men categorically don't need, it's more shocking secrets from their past. Let alone an ongoing devoted to exploring them.
Now theres a series i would read, Bishop travels beyond his inherent dickery in order to become a time traveling trauma councilor, drawing on his own feelings of displacement and survivors guilt after this time line went *pop!* in order to help some of the X-men get over the shocking secrets in thei past, when they occour instead of them hanging around to become enormous wangsty problems in the 90's.
If there's one thing that the X-men categorically don't need, it's more shocking secrets from their past. Let alone an ongoing devoted to exploring them.
Now theres a series i would read, Bishop travels beyond his inherent dickery in order to become a time traveling trauma councilor, drawing on his own feelings of displacement and survivors guilt after this time line went *pop!* in order to help some of the X-men get over the shocking secrets in thei past, when they occour instead of them hanging around to become enormous wangsty problems in the 90's.
If there's one thing that the X-men categorically don't need, it's more shocking secrets from their past. Let alone an ongoing devoted to exploring them.
Now theres a series i would read, Bishop travels beyond his inherent dickery in order to become a time traveling trauma councilor, drawing on his own feelings of displacement and survivors guilt after this time line went *pop!* in order to help some of the X-men get over the shocking secrets in thei past, when they occour instead of them hanging around to become enormous wangsty problems in the 90's.
So Booster Gold meets Dr. Phil?
Booster Gold meets Dr. Phil meets Shaft!
Who's that fly motha solving everybody's deep seated emotional problems? BISHOP!
They say that cats a loose end that nobody quite knows how to tie up.
I think the fact that Bishop and Cable are from the same timeline is an awesome twist. What I'm wondering now is if Cable knew all along that Bishop was a traitor but had to wait in silence until the Messiah was born. That's some truly epic stuff if it's true. Also, Sinister killed off camera? Seems kinda harsh.
I think the fact that Bishop and Cable are from the same timeline is an awesome twist. What I'm wondering now is if Cable knew all along that Bishop was a traitor but had to wait in silence until the Messiah was born. That's some truly epic stuff if it's true. Also, Sinister killed off camera? Seems kinda harsh.
I guarantee that Sinister is not dead. He's pretty much immortal and probably has come up with a way of copying Wolverine's healing factor or something.
I think the fact that Bishop and Cable are from the same timeline is an awesome twist. What I'm wondering now is if Cable knew all along that Bishop was a traitor but had to wait in silence until the Messiah was born. That's some truly epic stuff if it's true. Also, Sinister killed off camera? Seems kinda harsh.
I guarantee that Sinister is not dead. He's pretty much immortal and probably has come up with a way of copying Wolverine's healing factor or something.
Dude is like 400 years old.
Has a major character EVER been killed "off camera" failed to come back? Even deaths "on camera" are more of a vacation.
... in europe.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Haven't both Bishop and Cable's futures been effectively wiped out for years now? Originally, in Bishop's future all the X-Men had been killed by Onslaught, which was averted, and Cable's future was ruled over by Apocalypse, which has also (I believe) been definitively avoided.
Haven't both Bishop and Cable's futures been effectively wiped out for years now? Originally, in Bishop's future all the X-Men had been killed by Onslaught, which was averted, and Cable's future was ruled over by Apocalypse, which has also (I believe) been definitively avoided.
Or did I miss a meeting?
Generally in Marvel, there is one "current" timeline, and by travelling somewhere else in the timeline you can survive your future being annihilated.
However, we never had any statement that Bishop and Cable didn't share the exact timeline. Both Bishop and Cable's futures included the typical "All the video tapes were erased during the Second Coming of Jesus" comment so neither Bishop nor Cable were able to be exactly sure what events shaped their future.
As it turns out, they were apparently from the same future, and it's still the current future of Marvel. Apparently the confusion as to who Bishop's "traitor" was, was NOT resolved with Onslaught's appearance. Generally, this can be explained as Bishop just being wrong that Jean Grey's recording was about the 'traitor' that truly caused his future.
Of course, there's the logical question of: if Bishop & Cable's future is still our current timeline, then they were predestined to come to their own past and play a role here (since our future includes a great deal of Cable/Bishop in our past). This means that we already -know- that Bishop will fail to kill this child, since Bishop/Cable's respective original-presents included the survival of the Messiah and apparently the destruction of millions of humans by that Messiah.
Oh and as to Apocalypse: he isn't dead (just w/ the Celestials), and presumably he arrives some time after Bishop leaves the future.
I know Apocalypse isn't dead (he showed up in the story went Gambit turned into Death), but I was under the impression that after the Twelve storyline resulted in Apocalypse being defeated he didn't get to rule the world and thus grind Cable's future under his iron boot. This event thus ended Cable's primary reason for coming back in time (to fight Apocalypse and prevent his future) but he stuck around anyway because what the hell. At least I think that was the case.
Anyway, we can certainly assume that Bishop misunderstood the recording of Jean dying, but unless Marvel come right out and say that this is the case the canon explanation is still that the X-Men massacre on the tape was averted by Onslaught's defeat (unless, again, I've missed a meeting and they've officially retconned this).
I think the idea is that everything Bishop has ever said has been a lie, the whole concept of the traitor included.
It doesn't mean that there never was a traitor (the transmission from Jean proves that their was). What it does mean is that Bishop used the event out of context for his own ends.
Also, for all we know Cable could've been lieing all this time as well. Perhaps Apocalypse was just his "cover" for coming back in time when all he's really been waiting to do all along is stop Bishop from killing the baby.
Cable has the advantage of having seen more of history unfold since he's from further in the future than Bishop. He could therefore have a better understanding of how the baby saves the mutant race whereas all Bishop knows is that the baby is the reason his life sucked (although it may be a necessary evil for the survival of the mutant race).
You know, I read an interview with Brubaker before this came out, and he said something about how the X-Men's history is ridiculously complex and insane and that one of the things they wanted to do with Messiah Complex is try to make the backstory a little less imposing to new readers.
The reveal that Cable and Bishop are from the same future timeline definitely helps with that, since it adds an interesting and cool twist while helping to streamline two of the more complex storylines that they've had.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
You know, I read an interview with Brubaker before this came out, and he said something about how the X-Men's history is ridiculously complex and insane and that one of the things they wanted to do with Messiah Complex is try to make the backstory a little less imposing to new readers.
The reveal that Cable and Bishop are from the same future timeline definitely helps with that, since it adds an interesting and cool twist while helping to streamline two of the more complex storylines that they've had.
I always felt the worst parts were Wolverine and Jean, in terms of continuity. One is being completely fucked over in his own book, and it looks like the other will actually be deads for awhile, so it doesn't matter.
Which is an aspect of the Phoenix we haven't seen before, right?
I mean sure, Jean's come back from the dead so many times she gets frequent dier miles (I'm so sorry*) with each round trip, but have we ever seen her actually reborn?
*
No I'm not. I regret nothing!
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
So I bet Layla is going to spend about ten years in Bishop's future and travel back in time to the present... possibly using the same method as Bishop. Makes the whole her marrying Madrox scenario possible and not as creepy either.
Which is an aspect of the Phoenix we haven't seen before, right?
I mean sure, Jean's come back from the dead so many times she gets frequent diermiles (I'm so sorry*) with each round trip, but have we ever seen her actually reborn?
So I bet Layla is going to spend about ten years in Bishop's future and travel back in time to the present... possibly using the same method as Bishop. Makes the whole her marrying Madrox scenario possible and not as creepy either.
That makes sense and sets the stage for Rahne's departure.
I think the idea is that everything Bishop has ever said has been a lie, the whole concept of the traitor included.
It doesn't mean that there never was a traitor (the transmission from Jean proves that their was). What it does mean is that Bishop used the event out of context for his own ends.
Also, for all we know Cable could've been lieing all this time as well. Perhaps Apocalypse was just his "cover" for coming back in time when all he's really been waiting to do all along is stop Bishop from killing the baby.
Haven't read the X-Factor issue yet, so I'm groping in the dark a bit here, but I seem to remember a few stories of Bishop's set in his future as well, not to mention a bunch of characters that popped up from his time as well (Shard, Fitzroy, etc) that point to at least parts of his story being true. But, like I say, I haven't read the issue yet.
Besides, I don't think they could get away with claiming Cable is a liar, as it makes a bunch of his stories set completely pointless and retconned out of history and Marvel would never just take a whole segment of a character's history and put a bullet in its head and well fuck.
HawkstoneDon't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. Somewhere outside of BarstowRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Have you considered the possibility that the timelines are still seperate for Cable and Bishop and that in Cables line the baby is a savior and in Bishops the mutant antichrist...hense they both think they are doing the right thing...but in the 616 timeline the future is uncertain so we cant be sure as readers who is right ? Just a thought...I have missed an issue or two of this and had to get wikipedia updates to fill in the blanks so I may have missed a smoking gun pannel somewhere that explicitly states one of them is up to no good.
Over the years of reading X-men comics to say someones been "lying" all this time seems pretty lame. But I'm all for simplifying an otherwise impossible background...err future background...thing.
Have you considered the possibility that the timelines are still seperate for Cable and Bishop and that in Cables line the baby is a savior and in Bishops the mutant antichrist...hense they both think they are doing the right thing...but in the 616 timeline the future is uncertain so we cant be sure as readers who is right ? Just a thought...I have missed an issue or two of this and had to get wikipedia updates to fill in the blanks so I may have missed a smoking gun pannel somewhere that explicitly states one of them is up to no good.
Thats a pretty good theory.
I really think they're doing a really good job with Messiah Complex, especially so since I usually detest time travel stories.
What if the baby is responsible for causing the Hell that is Bishop's timeline but also ends up being the mutant messiah who kills Apocalypse in Cable's later future (after, I presume, he had leapt back in... Oh, dear god. My brain.)?
In Cable's timeline, the messiah died and everything went to shit, therefore he's trying to save it. In Bishop's, the messiah lived but was raised by the Marauders and made everything go to shit, therefore he's trying to kill it. The eventual resolution to Messiah CompleX is the messiah lives, but is instead raised by a non-Marauder, therefore avoiding both Bishop's and Cable's timelines.
So I bet Layla is going to spend about ten years in Bishop's future and travel back in time to the present... possibly using the same method as Bishop. Makes the whole her marrying Madrox scenario possible and not as creepy either.
How old is Layla actually meant to be? Depending on who's drawing her you could be high-fiving Madrox for bagging a hot 19-20 year old skater chick, or throwing the handcuffs on his and pushing him down the staircase for raping a cutesy innocent looking 12 year old.
So I bet Layla is going to spend about ten years in Bishop's future and travel back in time to the present... possibly using the same method as Bishop. Makes the whole her marrying Madrox scenario possible and not as creepy either.
This was my first thought when I read the issue as well.
and I agree Layla is probably my favorite thing to come out of House of M
Balefuego on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
edited January 2008
Just so we're clear: I really wouldn't expect anything about Cable's future to be cleared up in any way - him and Apocalypse are currently sharing so many time-paradoxes that in the end it'll turn out that Cable IS Apocalypse and it will be the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.
Just so we're clear: I really wouldn't expect anything about Cable's future to be cleared up in any way - him and Apocalypse are currently sharing so many time-paradoxes that in the end it'll turn out that Cable IS Apocalypse and it will be the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.
Just so we're clear: I really wouldn't expect anything about Cable's future to be cleared up in any way - him and Apocalypse are currently sharing so many time-paradoxes that in the end it'll turn out that Cable IS Apocalypse and it will be the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.
Uh that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.
Which would be on par with every other Cable story
Just so we're clear: I really wouldn't expect anything about Cable's future to be cleared up in any way - him and Apocalypse are currently sharing so many time-paradoxes that in the end it'll turn out that Cable IS Apocalypse and it will be the only conclusion that makes any sense whatsoever.
Uh that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.
But it would be hillarious.
"I'm here from the future to prevent Apocalypse from taking over."
"Man, I don't know how to break this to you, but you ARE Apocalypse."
"... god damnit! *sigh*"
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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I don't think so, but I think even if they did have him in the background (certainly don't think he was one of the main Morlock characters featured there) I think Marvel would write it off as an art error rather than an incidental resurrection.
Leech was in Neverland, though, wasn't he? Or was that Artie? I think both of those are free and easy right now with no explanation about how they got out (though they were never shown to be have been executed in Weapon X).
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Now theres a series i would read, Bishop travels beyond his inherent dickery in order to become a time traveling trauma councilor, drawing on his own feelings of displacement and survivors guilt after this time line went *pop!* in order to help some of the X-men get over the shocking secrets in thei past, when they occour instead of them hanging around to become enormous wangsty problems in the 90's.
Yeah, he was in that Uncanny arc after the Shi'iar Empire one. Obviously the Steve McQueen of the Neverland camp.
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Or the James Coburn. Or John Leyton, whose name no-one can ever remember.
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So Booster Gold meets Dr. Phil?
Yeah, that's who I was thinking of.
Booster Gold meets Dr. Phil meets Shaft!
Who's that fly motha solving everybody's deep seated emotional problems? BISHOP!
They say that cats a loose end that nobody quite knows how to tie up.
Shut your mouth!
But i'm talking about Bishop.
Then we can dig it.
Dude is like 400 years old.
3DS: 5241-1953-7031
... in europe.
Or did I miss a meeting?
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Generally in Marvel, there is one "current" timeline, and by travelling somewhere else in the timeline you can survive your future being annihilated.
However, we never had any statement that Bishop and Cable didn't share the exact timeline. Both Bishop and Cable's futures included the typical "All the video tapes were erased during the Second Coming of Jesus" comment so neither Bishop nor Cable were able to be exactly sure what events shaped their future.
As it turns out, they were apparently from the same future, and it's still the current future of Marvel. Apparently the confusion as to who Bishop's "traitor" was, was NOT resolved with Onslaught's appearance. Generally, this can be explained as Bishop just being wrong that Jean Grey's recording was about the 'traitor' that truly caused his future.
Of course, there's the logical question of: if Bishop & Cable's future is still our current timeline, then they were predestined to come to their own past and play a role here (since our future includes a great deal of Cable/Bishop in our past). This means that we already -know- that Bishop will fail to kill this child, since Bishop/Cable's respective original-presents included the survival of the Messiah and apparently the destruction of millions of humans by that Messiah.
Oh and as to Apocalypse: he isn't dead (just w/ the Celestials), and presumably he arrives some time after Bishop leaves the future.
Anyway, we can certainly assume that Bishop misunderstood the recording of Jean dying, but unless Marvel come right out and say that this is the case the canon explanation is still that the X-Men massacre on the tape was averted by Onslaught's defeat (unless, again, I've missed a meeting and they've officially retconned this).
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
It doesn't mean that there never was a traitor (the transmission from Jean proves that their was). What it does mean is that Bishop used the event out of context for his own ends.
Also, for all we know Cable could've been lieing all this time as well. Perhaps Apocalypse was just his "cover" for coming back in time when all he's really been waiting to do all along is stop Bishop from killing the baby.
Cable has the advantage of having seen more of history unfold since he's from further in the future than Bishop. He could therefore have a better understanding of how the baby saves the mutant race whereas all Bishop knows is that the baby is the reason his life sucked (although it may be a necessary evil for the survival of the mutant race).
The reveal that Cable and Bishop are from the same future timeline definitely helps with that, since it adds an interesting and cool twist while helping to streamline two of the more complex storylines that they've had.
Which is an aspect of the Phoenix we haven't seen before, right?
I mean sure, Jean's come back from the dead so many times she gets frequent dier miles (I'm so sorry*) with each round trip, but have we ever seen her actually reborn?
*
3DS: 5241-1953-7031
yikes, man. Yikes...
and also:
That makes sense and sets the stage for Rahne's departure.
Haven't read the X-Factor issue yet, so I'm groping in the dark a bit here, but I seem to remember a few stories of Bishop's set in his future as well, not to mention a bunch of characters that popped up from his time as well (Shard, Fitzroy, etc) that point to at least parts of his story being true. But, like I say, I haven't read the issue yet.
Besides, I don't think they could get away with claiming Cable is a liar, as it makes a bunch of his stories set completely pointless and retconned out of history and Marvel would never just take a whole segment of a character's history and put a bullet in its head and well fuck.
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Thats a pretty good theory.
I really think they're doing a really good job with Messiah Complex, especially so since I usually detest time travel stories.
3DS: 5241-1953-7031
In Cable's timeline, the messiah died and everything went to shit, therefore he's trying to save it. In Bishop's, the messiah lived but was raised by the Marauders and made everything go to shit, therefore he's trying to kill it. The eventual resolution to Messiah CompleX is the messiah lives, but is instead raised by a non-Marauder, therefore avoiding both Bishop's and Cable's timelines.
How old is Layla actually meant to be? Depending on who's drawing her you could be high-fiving Madrox for bagging a hot 19-20 year old skater chick, or throwing the handcuffs on his and pushing him down the staircase for raping a cutesy innocent looking 12 year old.
or at least the main part of him's not, there's probably a dupe that's into that sort of thing
This was my first thought when I read the issue as well.
Uh that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.
3DS: 5241-1953-7031
Which would be on par with every other Cable story
But it would be hillarious.
"I'm here from the future to prevent Apocalypse from taking over."
"Man, I don't know how to break this to you, but you ARE Apocalypse."
"... god damnit! *sigh*"