Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
That moment felt pretty Disney I yeah
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Huh I've been watching Adventure Time for the first time the last few months. I guess that explains the pencil style animation of the horse in the credits the episode before the James Baxter episode.
On a related note, does Rebecca Sugar have something against dads named Martin?
I don’t know what I was expecting white diamond to be, exactly, but she was creepy and terrifying
I love when unfathomably ancient beings curdle into apparent insanity and alien behavior over their endless lives
I honestly wish White Diamond has been more terrifying. Like how they had Spinel just keep going even after a small moment where you think she's changed, and then revert back.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Would it though? It's not like Jasper was ever successfully reasoned with, and Disney is rife with irredeemable villains who slapped away the protagonist's attempts to help/save them only to meet their end due to their own whatever without undermining whatever the lesson of the day was.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Killing isn't a great message, but "Genocidal warlords who have enslaved and destroyed several planets just need to be momentarily embarrassed in front of their goofy sibling and then everything is fine" is kind of bizarre.
The world in general manages to be more absurd than Wander Over Yonder.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Killing isn't a great message, but "Genocidal warlords who have enslaved and destroyed several planets just need to be momentarily embarrassed in front of their goofy sibling and then everything is fine" is kind of bizarre.
The world in general manages to be more absurd than Wander Over Yonder.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Killing isn't a great message, but "Genocidal warlords who have enslaved and destroyed several planets just need to be momentarily embarrassed in front of their goofy sibling and then everything is fine" is kind of bizarre.
The world in general manages to be more absurd than Wander Over Yonder.
...
I need this crossover
The internet has you covered. But I agree, that would actually be great.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Would it though? It's not like Jasper was ever successfully reasoned with, and Disney is rife with irredeemable villains who slapped away the protagonist's attempts to help/save them only to meet their end due to their own whatever without undermining whatever the lesson of the day was.
Yes, It would. This isn’t about it being a kids show. The theme of pick-a-Disney-movie is not the same as Steven Universe’s. The one sentence pitch for Steven Universe is that it is a shonen anime which takes the theme of a hero who is able to use empathy and friendship to change the minds of his enemies.
And hey for the record I think the show does a good job of that. The diamonds turns may feel rushed in places but they make sense at the core. Although White does deal in some implied metaphysics.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Would it though? It's not like Jasper was ever successfully reasoned with, and Disney is rife with irredeemable villains who slapped away the protagonist's attempts to help/save them only to meet their end due to their own whatever without undermining whatever the lesson of the day was.
Yes, It would. This isn’t about it being a kids show. The theme of pick-a-Disney-movie is not the same as Steven Universe’s. The one sentence pitch for Steven Universe is that it is a shonen anime which takes the theme of a hero who is able to use empathy and friendship to change the minds of his enemies.
And hey for the record I think the show does a good job of that. The diamonds turns may feel rushed in places but they make sense at the core. Although White does deal in some implied metaphysics.
My point is that it already had a villain like that, so the claim that they can't possibly have a villain like a villain that they already had doesn't make sense. But same goes for the claim that it needs a (second) villain that can't be reasoned with. I think it's mostly a reaction to both the cluster and White Diamond being presented for so long as all-consuming genocidal monstrosities, at least one possibly not even sentient at all, before the very facile resolutions. But the third major antagonist was Jasper, who was an antagonist who couldn't be reasoned with, and ended up offing herself as she rejected the protagonist's help, in true form, which seems like it's what people are saying they want. She's just not on the level of the genocidal apocalypse monsters so doesn't count, or something.
Steven's class is diplomat. He put all his points into speechcraft.
Seeing him try to kill someone would be as weird as seeing a barbarian wave a magic wand around.
I think it’s less we want to see him kill and more want to see Steven embrace non-violent resistance and self-care in the face of abusers. There’s a line where Steven’s morality falters, and it would be interesting to see it address that.
I think the show is aware of this, as well. The movie certainly implies that Steven’s embrace of allowing others to hurt him so that he can save them is causing serious damage to his mental well-being.
There’s a line where Steven’s morality falters, and it would be interesting to see it address that.
Would it though? Is that actually what the show's audience wants? As @nightmarenny said, Steven Universe is a shonen and that isn't really how shonen works.
When Goku encounters an enemy he can't punch into submission, he screams and powers up until he's strong enough that the enemy can be punched into submission. Does Goku have a healthy lifestyle? Of course not. He walks away from most fights looking like he just got hit by a truck. But viewers don't want to see Goku take care of himself. They want to see him punch people!
Steven is the same, except you have to replace punching with speaking and strength with charisma.
There’s a line where Steven’s morality falters, and it would be interesting to see it address that.
Would it though? Is that actually what the show's audience wants? As @nightmarenny said, Steven Universe is a shonen and that isn't really how shonen works.
When Goku encounters an enemy he can't punch into submission, he screams and powers up until he's strong enough that the enemy can be punched into submission. Does Goku have a healthy lifestyle? Of course not. He walks away from most fights looking like he just got hit by a truck. But viewers don't want to see Goku take care of himself. They want to see him punch people!
Steven is the same, except you have to replace punching with speaking and strength with charisma.
Let’s see what the next season holds. There’s an interview with Rebecca Sugar either here or on the other thread that makes me think she’s thinking along these lines as well.
There's some people out there that want an antagonist that Steven can't reason with and has to be killed or something.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
Steven couldn’t reason with white diamond though, no one could.
It took an extraordinary event that shook her world view to its foundations for her to come around
It’s also, I think, pretty wrong to say that white diamond caved because of something trivial, when she did so because of Steven proving the validity of his entire identity and the premise that gems can grow and change. Yes, it happens in a short time from the perspective of white diamond’s screen time, but it happens because of something that was developed for the duration of the entire series since the beginning.
White diamond caved easily due to having a brittle paradigm sheltered by the power to avoid challenge. Pretty much all the diamonds were pushovers compared to the gems on the ground that repeatedly frustrated much more skillful persuasion
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
White diamond caved easily due to having a brittle paradigm sheltered by the power to avoid challenge. Pretty much all the diamonds were pushovers compared to the gems on the ground that repeatedly frustrated much more skillful persuasion
They imply White secluded herself long before Pink "Died" . I'm curious why. Was it just because the stress of her role and being perfect was straining her? The Future opening implies something a little more sinister and I hope it's explored
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
I'm skeptical of White's 'transformation.' It seems the only reason she acquiesces currently is because of Pink/Steven's influence and her desire to keep him happy/close to her. As things are now, White could probably snap back pretty quick if Steven died. That's my impression, at least: she hasn't personally internalized Steven's message of tolerance and empathy.
White diamond caved easily due to having a brittle paradigm sheltered by the power to avoid challenge. Pretty much all the diamonds were pushovers compared to the gems on the ground that repeatedly frustrated much more skillful persuasion
They imply White secluded herself long before Pink "Died" . I'm curious why. Was it just because the stress of her role and being perfect was straining her? The Future opening implies something a little more sinister and I hope it's explored
I’m gonna talk more about this later because I really want to talk about the metaphysics of what’s going on in the confrontation with white diamond(I’m 100% sure she isn’t blushing and I’m constantly surprised to hear everyone characterize it that way) but for now:
White talks a lot about the various diamonds bringing out different emotions in each other and also imply that White created the diamonds by splitting part of her off. It’s not terribly surprising to me that devoid of the emotional spectrum the other three diamonds represent she ended up becoming cold and distant and focused entirely on her function.
I blame the Diamonds' rushed conversion on bad pacing. It wasn't intentional; it was necessary, because the writers hadn't left themselves enough episodes to do a proper character arc.
Too many townie episodes, not enough worldbuilding.
I blame the Diamonds' rushed conversion on bad pacing. It wasn't intentional; it was necessary, because the writers hadn't left themselves enough episodes to do a proper character arc.
Too many townie episodes, not enough worldbuilding.
The pacing is pretty atrocious in general and makes everything feel wildly inconsistent. It kind of feels like a kid telling a story.
I don't really agree, at least not with regards to the show as a whole. I was listening to an NPR podcast about the movie and one of the panelists said something along the lines of "It's kind of a bizarre complaint to make when the show has 11 minute episodes, but 90 minutes felt rushed. " I think the same applies to Change Your Mind.
The show is really good at telling these little stories. And the pacing and worried building work really well, when the metaplot is in a state where it kind of naturally sidelines itself to let other stuff happen. Like, what I consider to be the first real metaplot episode is the Lapis 2 parter. It's 25 episodes into the series, as 11 episodes later is the next definitive* one, in which Peridot shows up. But that all makes sense. All the Homeworld stuff is happening way out there on Homeworld, and they don't really know the Earth situation. Once they get to Honeworld it's a lot harder to take natural breaks like they're good at and that's where it starts to suffer, IMO.
*you could make a good argument for "Lion 3: Straight to Video" qualifying.
I don't really agree, at least not with regards to the show as a whole. I was listening to an NPR podcast about the movie and one of the panelists said something along the lines of "It's kind of a bizarre complaint to make when the show has 11 minute episodes, but 90 minutes felt rushed. " I think the same applies to Change Your Mind.
The show is really good at telling these little stories. And the pacing and worried building work really well, when the metaplot is in a state where it kind of naturally sidelines itself to let other stuff happen. Like, what I consider to be the first real metaplot episode is the Lapis 2 parter. It's 25 episodes into the series, as 11 episodes later is the next definitive* one, in which Peridot shows up. But that all makes sense. All the Homeworld stuff is happening way out there on Homeworld, and they don't really know the Earth situation. Once they get to Honeworld it's a lot harder to take natural breaks like they're good at and that's where it starts to suffer, IMO.
*you could make a good argument for "Lion 3: Straight to Video" qualifying.
I feel there is a constant drip of metaplot, especially in the early seasons. Sometimes it is obvious only in hindsight - a mural here, a corrupted gem appearing like a human for an instant there. The show had constant hints and moments that hinted at a larger context or revealed just a bit more information.
I don't really agree, at least not with regards to the show as a whole. I was listening to an NPR podcast about the movie and one of the panelists said something along the lines of "It's kind of a bizarre complaint to make when the show has 11 minute episodes, but 90 minutes felt rushed. " I think the same applies to Change Your Mind.
The show is really good at telling these little stories. And the pacing and worried building work really well, when the metaplot is in a state where it kind of naturally sidelines itself to let other stuff happen. Like, what I consider to be the first real metaplot episode is the Lapis 2 parter. It's 25 episodes into the series, as 11 episodes later is the next definitive* one, in which Peridot shows up. But that all makes sense. All the Homeworld stuff is happening way out there on Homeworld, and they don't really know the Earth situation. Once they get to Honeworld it's a lot harder to take natural breaks like they're good at and that's where it starts to suffer, IMO.
*you could make a good argument for "Lion 3: Straight to Video" qualifying.
I feel there is a constant drip of metaplot, especially in the early seasons. Sometimes it is obvious only in hindsight - a mural here, a corrupted gem appearing like a human for an instant there. The show had constant hints and moments that hinted at a larger context or revealed just a bit more information.
Yeah, a lot of that world building is there, and anything related to Steven's mom arguably qualifies, and they manage to retcon or backreference basically everything at some point. But Lapis showing up and then going home is where I consider it to actually start doing stuff. Everything before that is table setting.
I've said this before but I think Steven Universe is weirdly inert, plotwise, and it's always been my biggest problem with the show. Like, if you compare it to Lord of the Rings: LotR may be slow and meandering, the characters may constantly stop for poems and feasts and sidequests and whatnot, but they're still slowly moving towards a goal. With Steven Universe the heroes have no long-term goal: their plan for the war that they find themselves embroiled in is "eh, we'll take things as they come I guess, hey let's get pizza"
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I've said this before but I think Steven Universe is weirdly inert, plotwise, and it's always been my biggest problem with the show. Like, if you compare it to Lord of the Rings: LotR may be slow and meandering, the characters may constantly stop for poems and feasts and sidequests and whatnot, but they're still slowly moving towards a goal. With Steven Universe the heroes have no long-term goal: their plan for the war that they find themselves embroiled in is "eh, we'll take things as they come I guess, hey let's get pizza"
They have goals, though?
Stopping Jasper, stopping the cluster, finding out what the fuck happened with Pink Diamond.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I've said this before but I think Steven Universe is weirdly inert, plotwise, and it's always been my biggest problem with the show. Like, if you compare it to Lord of the Rings: LotR may be slow and meandering, the characters may constantly stop for poems and feasts and sidequests and whatnot, but they're still slowly moving towards a goal. With Steven Universe the heroes have no long-term goal: their plan for the war that they find themselves embroiled in is "eh, we'll take things as they come I guess, hey let's get pizza"
They have goals, though?
Stopping Jasper, stopping the cluster, finding out what the fuck happened with Pink Diamond.
I guess, but they're largely short term goals! Something becomes a threat, like Jasper or the cluster, and they deal with it. There's no long-term strategy
Posts
I don’t know what I was expecting white diamond to be, exactly, but she was creepy and terrifying
I love when unfathomably ancient beings curdle into apparent insanity and alien behavior over their endless lives
Just like how they secretly control every government in the world.
On a related note, does Rebecca Sugar have something against dads named Martin?
I honestly wish White Diamond has been more terrifying. Like how they had Spinel just keep going even after a small moment where you think she's changed, and then revert back.
I wanted more evil, is what I'm saying.
Which I think is kind of fucked up and not what the show is about and would kind of undermine its message.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
Would it though? It's not like Jasper was ever successfully reasoned with, and Disney is rife with irredeemable villains who slapped away the protagonist's attempts to help/save them only to meet their end due to their own whatever without undermining whatever the lesson of the day was.
Killing isn't a great message, but "Genocidal warlords who have enslaved and destroyed several planets just need to be momentarily embarrassed in front of their goofy sibling and then everything is fine" is kind of bizarre.
The world in general manages to be more absurd than Wander Over Yonder.
The thing is though Steven already had that, and it messed him up pretty good.
See Mindful Education.
...
I need this crossover
The internet has you covered. But I agree, that would actually be great.
Yes, It would. This isn’t about it being a kids show. The theme of pick-a-Disney-movie is not the same as Steven Universe’s. The one sentence pitch for Steven Universe is that it is a shonen anime which takes the theme of a hero who is able to use empathy and friendship to change the minds of his enemies.
And hey for the record I think the show does a good job of that. The diamonds turns may feel rushed in places but they make sense at the core. Although White does deal in some implied metaphysics.
My point is that it already had a villain like that, so the claim that they can't possibly have a villain like a villain that they already had doesn't make sense. But same goes for the claim that it needs a (second) villain that can't be reasoned with. I think it's mostly a reaction to both the cluster and White Diamond being presented for so long as all-consuming genocidal monstrosities, at least one possibly not even sentient at all, before the very facile resolutions. But the third major antagonist was Jasper, who was an antagonist who couldn't be reasoned with, and ended up offing herself as she rejected the protagonist's help, in true form, which seems like it's what people are saying they want. She's just not on the level of the genocidal apocalypse monsters so doesn't count, or something.
Seeing him try to kill someone would be as weird as seeing a barbarian wave a magic wand around.
I think it’s less we want to see him kill and more want to see Steven embrace non-violent resistance and self-care in the face of abusers. There’s a line where Steven’s morality falters, and it would be interesting to see it address that.
I think the show is aware of this, as well. The movie certainly implies that Steven’s embrace of allowing others to hurt him so that he can save them is causing serious damage to his mental well-being.
Would it though? Is that actually what the show's audience wants? As @nightmarenny said, Steven Universe is a shonen and that isn't really how shonen works.
When Goku encounters an enemy he can't punch into submission, he screams and powers up until he's strong enough that the enemy can be punched into submission. Does Goku have a healthy lifestyle? Of course not. He walks away from most fights looking like he just got hit by a truck. But viewers don't want to see Goku take care of himself. They want to see him punch people!
Steven is the same, except you have to replace punching with speaking and strength with charisma.
Let’s see what the next season holds. There’s an interview with Rebecca Sugar either here or on the other thread that makes me think she’s thinking along these lines as well.
Steven couldn’t reason with white diamond though, no one could.
It took an extraordinary event that shook her world view to its foundations for her to come around
Blushing.
It’s also, I think, pretty wrong to say that white diamond caved because of something trivial, when she did so because of Steven proving the validity of his entire identity and the premise that gems can grow and change. Yes, it happens in a short time from the perspective of white diamond’s screen time, but it happens because of something that was developed for the duration of the entire series since the beginning.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
They imply White secluded herself long before Pink "Died" . I'm curious why. Was it just because the stress of her role and being perfect was straining her? The Future opening implies something a little more sinister and I hope it's explored
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
I’m gonna talk more about this later because I really want to talk about the metaphysics of what’s going on in the confrontation with white diamond(I’m 100% sure she isn’t blushing and I’m constantly surprised to hear everyone characterize it that way) but for now:
White talks a lot about the various diamonds bringing out different emotions in each other and also imply that White created the diamonds by splitting part of her off. It’s not terribly surprising to me that devoid of the emotional spectrum the other three diamonds represent she ended up becoming cold and distant and focused entirely on her function.
Too many townie episodes, not enough worldbuilding.
The pacing is pretty atrocious in general and makes everything feel wildly inconsistent. It kind of feels like a kid telling a story.
The show is really good at telling these little stories. And the pacing and worried building work really well, when the metaplot is in a state where it kind of naturally sidelines itself to let other stuff happen. Like, what I consider to be the first real metaplot episode is the Lapis 2 parter. It's 25 episodes into the series, as 11 episodes later is the next definitive* one, in which Peridot shows up. But that all makes sense. All the Homeworld stuff is happening way out there on Homeworld, and they don't really know the Earth situation. Once they get to Honeworld it's a lot harder to take natural breaks like they're good at and that's where it starts to suffer, IMO.
*you could make a good argument for "Lion 3: Straight to Video" qualifying.
I feel there is a constant drip of metaplot, especially in the early seasons. Sometimes it is obvious only in hindsight - a mural here, a corrupted gem appearing like a human for an instant there. The show had constant hints and moments that hinted at a larger context or revealed just a bit more information.
Yeah, a lot of that world building is there, and anything related to Steven's mom arguably qualifies, and they manage to retcon or backreference basically everything at some point. But Lapis showing up and then going home is where I consider it to actually start doing stuff. Everything before that is table setting.
They have goals, though?
Stopping Jasper, stopping the cluster, finding out what the fuck happened with Pink Diamond.