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[US Foreign Policy] Don't be a tough guy. Don't be a fool!

monikermoniker Registered User regular
edited October 17 in Debate and/or Discourse
A new thread to discuss what amounts to our supposed policies to foreign nations.

Previously on The Earth:
President Trump used the power of his office to extort a foreign power into helping his reelection campaign.
Saudi oil refineries blew up and we are blaming Iran for it
Bolton got fired from being NSA

Also: Tariffs? No war but the trade war. But also, maybe actual war.


What will happen next? Events, dear boy, events.


*************
Official prevention of cross contamination post.
*************

The Russian investigation, and related issues: Mueller Russian Investigation Thread
Sundry other corrupt practices: The numerous other Trump investigation threads.
General Middle East goings on: The Middle East Thread
Canada specific things and what even is cheese? : Canada Thread
BREXIT: Hiberno-Brittania thread
Venezuela? : South America Thread
Trump immigration policy, Muslim ban and beyond: Immigration Policy Thread
Firings and Hirings of Senior Government positions: Trump Cabinet Thread

*************

moniker on
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Posts

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    If you're a normal American and are not not completely certain that Ukraine is not actually located in South America, or just don't follow news out of Ukraine in general--this is the second* Ukrainian high governmental scandal involving Vice President Biden and his son Hunter.

    It's pretty easy to forget, since even Ukraine does not tend to remain in the American news cycle for long, not to mention the Trump government's penchant for catastrophic levels of corruption, but to sum up: VP Biden told Kiev to fire a state procurator who happened at that time to be investigating Burisma, a Ukrainian LNG corporation for which Hunter Biden serves as a director on the board, or else. We know this because the former vice president not so discreetly bragged about it.
    I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch..He got fired.

    You'd have to be pretty naive not to think Viktor Shokin's (the procurator in question) replacement wasn't subject to the same corruption vulnerabilities as his predecessor, but had the very desirable quality of not investigating Burisma.

    But this story is the right combination of foreign, boring, and complicated that it's not particularly memorable.

    *Third, if you consider United States arms shipments to the Ukrainian military to combat Russian-backed separatists ending up in the hands of known neo-Nazi paramilitaries, but that doesn't really involve Joe Biden aside from him strongly advocating the shipments, and probably not his son at all.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
    Julius
  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    Someone on NPR was reporting that the Ukranian prosecutor was fired because he WASNT looking into the company and not charging anyone involved, at tge urging of Bidens son (VP or board member of said firm).

    Not sure if thats true or not.

    QuidElldrenStabbity StyleFencingsaxGnome-InterruptusMarathonKristmas Kthulhu
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    Kruite wrote: »
    Someone on NPR was reporting that the Ukranian prosecutor was fired because he WASNT looking into the company and not charging anyone involved, at tge urging of Bidens son (VP or board member of said firm).

    Not sure if thats true or not.

    ...it really, really doesn't sound like it.

    I'm not going to automatically assume malice, because NPR--god bless them--is full of humans who make mistakes. On top of the whole "international news coverage can be terrible because there are basically no consequences for fucking up compared to domestic stories" thing. Remember when the Washington Post said the Russians were trying to freeze all of Vermont to death by hacking the power grid, then proceeded to edit their story online without notice for the next day, more than doubling its length, before saying "Whoops, turns out we were wrong," after other news sites pointed out what they were doing? And they broke the Watergate Scandal! They are one of the finest publications in the country! International news coverage is...frequently not very good.

    The NPR interview could simply have an innocent gaffe, or someone who genuinely doesn't know any better, both of which happen on NPR. Ironically, in the rather chaotic post-Party of Regions Kiev government, not investigating Burisma is probably one of the few things we can be confident Procurator Shokin wasn't fired for.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    Kruite wrote: »
    Someone on NPR was reporting that the Ukranian prosecutor was fired because he WASNT looking into the company and not charging anyone involved, at tge urging of Bidens son (VP or board member of said firm).

    Not sure if thats true or not.

    The official Ukrainian government line is that the prosecutor was not actively prosecuting cases, there were several he was sitting on without action for years. Being a ‘do nothing’ prosecutor essentially.

    This is supported by his deputy Vitaly Kasko citing that specifically in his own resignation in 2016.

    Jealous Deva on
    QuidElldrenStabbity StyleQanamilshrykeFencingsaxBlackDragon480Kristmas Kthulhu
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    The US state department was openly not helping protect US journalists abroad.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/462716-nyt-publisher-us-didnt-step-in-to-protect-reporter-from-arrest-in-egypt-so
    The New York Times had to seek help from the Irish government to shield a correspondent from arrest in Egypt after a U.S. diplomat said the Trump administration would not protect him, Times publisher A.G. Sulzberger wrote in an opinion column published Monday.

    In the 2017 incident, Sulzberger wrote, a U.S. government official alerted the Times that the correspondent, Declan Walsh, was in imminent danger of arrest. While such calls are not uncommon, the official told the Times they were making the call without the approval of the Trump administration and that they believed the administration intended to let it occur.

    “Unable to count on our own government to prevent the arrest or help free Declan if he were imprisoned, we turned to his native country, Ireland, for help. Within an hour, Irish diplomats traveled to his house and safely escorted him to the airport before Egyptian forces could detain him,” Sulzberger wrote.
    That should be a huge scandal.

    ArbitraryDescriptormonikerDarkPrimusJragghenElldrenGONG-00Commander ZoomshrykeKayne Red RobeFencingsaxGnome-InterruptusMild ConfusionKruiteTNTrooperemp123BandableLovelyBlackDragon480AegisSkeithKristmas KthulhuZonugal
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    The US state department was openly not helping protect US journalists abroad.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/462716-nyt-publisher-us-didnt-step-in-to-protect-reporter-from-arrest-in-egypt-so
    The New York Times had to seek help from the Irish government to shield a correspondent from arrest in Egypt after a U.S. diplomat said the Trump administration would not protect him, Times publisher A.G. Sulzberger wrote in an opinion column published Monday.

    In the 2017 incident, Sulzberger wrote, a U.S. government official alerted the Times that the correspondent, Declan Walsh, was in imminent danger of arrest. While such calls are not uncommon, the official told the Times they were making the call without the approval of the Trump administration and that they believed the administration intended to let it occur.

    “Unable to count on our own government to prevent the arrest or help free Declan if he were imprisoned, we turned to his native country, Ireland, for help. Within an hour, Irish diplomats traveled to his house and safely escorted him to the airport before Egyptian forces could detain him,” Sulzberger wrote.
    That should be a huge scandal.

    no, this -should- be a huge scandal. the gop hates the media and by extension so does their entire base

    RickRude
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    The US state department was openly not helping protect US journalists abroad.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/462716-nyt-publisher-us-didnt-step-in-to-protect-reporter-from-arrest-in-egypt-so
    The New York Times had to seek help from the Irish government to shield a correspondent from arrest in Egypt after a U.S. diplomat said the Trump administration would not protect him, Times publisher A.G. Sulzberger wrote in an opinion column published Monday.

    In the 2017 incident, Sulzberger wrote, a U.S. government official alerted the Times that the correspondent, Declan Walsh, was in imminent danger of arrest. While such calls are not uncommon, the official told the Times they were making the call without the approval of the Trump administration and that they believed the administration intended to let it occur.

    “Unable to count on our own government to prevent the arrest or help free Declan if he were imprisoned, we turned to his native country, Ireland, for help. Within an hour, Irish diplomats traveled to his house and safely escorted him to the airport before Egyptian forces could detain him,” Sulzberger wrote.
    That should be a huge scandal.

    Well it’s getting a fair bit of traction over here in Ireland I can tell you. RTÉ News have already been reporting on it. Why the hell did the NYT say nothing about it at the time?!

    I have to say that given this and given Trump’s recent love-fest with Saudi Arabia, up to and including sending US troops over there for their convenience, that this absolutely merits a full intelligence investigation into Khashoggi’s murder, and specifically what the White House knew about it in advance. I know there was mention that the US had intelligence that he was in danger and failed to warn him. Now I’m wondering just how complicit the Trump administration was in his murder.


    BigJoeMKayne Red RobeThe SauceLovelyBlackDragon480Kristmas Kthulhu
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Kruite wrote: »
    Someone on NPR was reporting that the Ukranian prosecutor was fired because he WASNT looking into the company and not charging anyone involved, at tge urging of Bidens son (VP or board member of said firm).

    Not sure if thats true or not.

    ...it really, really doesn't sound like it.

    I'm not going to automatically assume malice, because NPR--god bless them--is full of humans who make mistakes. On top of the whole "international news coverage can be terrible because there are basically no consequences for fucking up compared to domestic stories" thing. Remember when the Washington Post said the Russians were trying to freeze all of Vermont to death by hacking the power grid, then proceeded to edit their story online without notice for the next day, more than doubling its length, before saying "Whoops, turns out we were wrong," after other news sites pointed out what they were doing? And they broke the Watergate Scandal! They are one of the finest publications in the country! International news coverage is...frequently not very good.

    The NPR interview could simply have an innocent gaffe, or someone who genuinely doesn't know any better, both of which happen on NPR. Ironically, in the rather chaotic post-Party of Regions Kiev government, not investigating Burisma is probably one of the few things we can be confident Procurator Shokin wasn't fired for.

    Not sure why you insist on the bolded.

    Per NPR:
    Joe Biden has actually boasted about his work in Ukraine as a spokesperson for the White House and the West generally. He called for the ouster of the top Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, for what was widely seen as his failure to investigate corruption.

    ...

    They argue that Joe Biden wanted the prosecutor ousted to protect his son from being investigated. But there has been no evidence of wrongdoing, and Joe Biden was tasked as vice president with helping to weed out corruption in Ukraine.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/09/24/763502822/what-were-the-bidens-doing-in-ukraine-5-questions-answered

    I don't doubt hella nepotism got Hunter his position but there hasn't been any evidence I've seen that the Ukrainian government was investigating him for anything.

    CouscousArbitraryDescriptormonikerElldrenStabbity StyleQanamilFencingsaxTryCatchertynicTynnanemp123MillKristmas Kthulhu
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    In terms of corruption, the sort of nepotism with Biden is probably not high on the agenda compared to a lot of other corruption.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    Couscous wrote: »
    The US state department was openly not helping protect US journalists abroad.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/media/462716-nyt-publisher-us-didnt-step-in-to-protect-reporter-from-arrest-in-egypt-so
    The New York Times had to seek help from the Irish government to shield a correspondent from arrest in Egypt after a U.S. diplomat said the Trump administration would not protect him, Times publisher A.G. Sulzberger wrote in an opinion column published Monday.

    In the 2017 incident, Sulzberger wrote, a U.S. government official alerted the Times that the correspondent, Declan Walsh, was in imminent danger of arrest. While such calls are not uncommon, the official told the Times they were making the call without the approval of the Trump administration and that they believed the administration intended to let it occur.

    “Unable to count on our own government to prevent the arrest or help free Declan if he were imprisoned, we turned to his native country, Ireland, for help. Within an hour, Irish diplomats traveled to his house and safely escorted him to the airport before Egyptian forces could detain him,” Sulzberger wrote.
    That should be a huge scandal.

    Well it’s getting a fair bit of traction over here in Ireland I can tell you. RTÉ News have already been reporting on it. Why the hell did the NYT say nothing about it at the time?!

    I have to say that given this and given Trump’s recent love-fest with Saudi Arabia, up to and including sending US troops over there for their convenience, that this absolutely merits a full intelligence investigation into Khashoggi’s murder, and specifically what the White House knew about it in advance. I know there was mention that the US had intelligence that he was in danger and failed to warn him. Now I’m wondering just how complicit the Trump administration was in his murder.

    On the bolded: A generous interpretation could be that if they spoke up, they'd risk burning the one person who had their back, and may have it again in the future. It would be trivial for the admin to argue that these sort of warnings are unauthorized disclosures of classified information.

    Coming forward with it now could be because that person is gone, or they feel like it's the ideal time to pile on charges of malfeasance for a looming impeachment inquiry.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Damn, you’re right. If they’d said it then the focus would have been on whichever official stuck their neck out. Now the White House is putting out so many fires they won’t be able to give it the same attention.


  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    In terms of corruption, the sort of nepotism with Biden is probably not high on the agenda compared to a lot of other corruption.

    Especially when currently dealing with the whole other level of nepotism that is seeing Ivanka Trump skipping around the G7 and Jared skipping around conferences in Saudi Arabia.


    ElldrenVeagleKayne Red RobeFencingsaxMild ConfusionBlackDragon480Kristmas Kthulhu
  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote: »
    Kruite wrote: »
    Someone on NPR was reporting that the Ukranian prosecutor was fired because he WASNT looking into the company and not charging anyone involved, at tge urging of Bidens son (VP or board member of said firm).

    Not sure if thats true or not.

    ...it really, really doesn't sound like it.

    I'm not going to automatically assume malice, because NPR--god bless them--is full of humans who make mistakes. On top of the whole "international news coverage can be terrible because there are basically no consequences for fucking up compared to domestic stories" thing. Remember when the Washington Post said the Russians were trying to freeze all of Vermont to death by hacking the power grid, then proceeded to edit their story online without notice for the next day, more than doubling its length, before saying "Whoops, turns out we were wrong," after other news sites pointed out what they were doing? And they broke the Watergate Scandal! They are one of the finest publications in the country! International news coverage is...frequently not very good.

    The NPR interview could simply have an innocent gaffe, or someone who genuinely doesn't know any better, both of which happen on NPR. Ironically, in the rather chaotic post-Party of Regions Kiev government, not investigating Burisma is probably one of the few things we can be confident Procurator Shokin wasn't fired for.

    Not sure why you insist on the bolded.

    Per NPR:
    Joe Biden has actually boasted about his work in Ukraine as a spokesperson for the White House and the West generally. He called for the ouster of the top Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, for what was widely seen as his failure to investigate corruption.

    ...

    They argue that Joe Biden wanted the prosecutor ousted to protect his son from being investigated. But there has been no evidence of wrongdoing, and Joe Biden was tasked as vice president with helping to weed out corruption in Ukraine.

    https://www.npr.org/2019/09/24/763502822/what-were-the-bidens-doing-in-ukraine-5-questions-answered

    I don't doubt hella nepotism got Hunter his position but there hasn't been any evidence I've seen that the Ukrainian government was investigating him for anything.
    Wiki's article on Victor Shokin is pretty well sourced and somewhat informative. It does appear that he was regarded as ineffective in prosecuting corruption at best, and actively protecting corrupt elites at worst. There was an investigation into the company Hunter Biden worked for, though it was apparently "dormant" as of early 2016, as others have pointed out.

    Nepotism on the Bidens' part seems likely, and some level of corrupt dealings doesn't seem implausible given the context, though no evidence of such seems available. But overall it seems like Biden's portrayal of events - that the prosecutor was sacked for being ineffective or himself corrupt - is accurate.

    shrykeFencingsaxmonikerElldrenKruiteQuidBlackDragon480Kristmas Kthulhu
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    Shokin was quite plausibly both an ineffective prosecutor and an inconvenience to Hunter Biden. It's also plausile that the US government thought his replacement was tangibly better for reasons unrelated to Biden.

    I would not be surprised if Biden"s actions had an ulterior motive, or that he were manipulated into it by his son.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    Shokin was quite plausibly both an ineffective prosecutor and an inconvenience to Hunter Biden. It's also plausile that the US government thought his replacement was tangibly better for reasons unrelated to Biden.

    I would not be surprised if Biden"s actions had an ulterior motive, or that he were manipulated into it by his son.

    But what's the best case scenario there for Hunter? His dad gets the guy who was trying to bury the investigation replaced with someone who would... what?

    He was already in the clear thanks to the then-current prosecutor not giving a shit for whatever reason.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
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  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I thought Hunter was dead?

    Does Joe have more kids?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I thought Hunter was dead?

    Does Joe have more kids?

    His two sons, Beau and Hunter, were the only ones to survive the car crash that killed his wife and daughter. He then got remarried and had another 1 (or 2?) daughters.

    Beau is the one that died of cancer a few years back. Hunter is still around.

    monikerElldrenBlackDragon480
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Ahh

    Geez poor Joe

    and his whole family =(

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I thought Hunter was dead?

    Does Joe have more kids?

    Beau Biden was his eldest who has, sadly, passed.

    Banana-fana-Faux Biden is the one who, sadly, does not exist, but was probably his first choice for Hunter.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Shokin was quite plausibly both an ineffective prosecutor and an inconvenience to Hunter Biden. It's also plausile that the US government thought his replacement was tangibly better for reasons unrelated to Biden.

    I would not be surprised if Biden"s actions had an ulterior motive, or that he were manipulated into it by his son.

    But what's the best case scenario there for Hunter? His dad gets the guy who was trying to bury the investigation replaced with someone who would... what?

    He was already in the clear thanks to the then-current prosecutor not giving a shit for whatever reason.

    To the best of my knowledge the company Hunter was on the board of wasn't even the source of the inquiry, like they were involved because some millionaire involved with it had done some shady shit. But the whole thing is a mess of snakes and "what the fuck even is this?" that is modern corporations.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    FencingsaxElldren
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Um... here's the Washington Post with footage of Trump confirming, live to camera, that he withheld military aid from The Ukraine (who are dealing with the annexation of The Crimea by Russia) before his phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but... The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally withhold funds that Congress has appropriated, right? This is straight up illegal, right?


    KruiteBlackDragon480
  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    There's a decent explainer of the Biden Conspiracy here.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/23/20879611/joe-biden-hunter-biden-ukraine-corruption-prosecutor-burisma-donald-trump-whistleblower-complaint

    Hunter wasn't totally unrelated to Burisma before being hired (the law firm he worked for was owned by the same hugely corrupt dude), but it very clearly seems like the usual nepotism hire and it's not clear he did jack squat except get paid a lot of money. It's corrupt, but a pretty low level of corruption compared to... everything else.

    Where the conspiracy breaks down is that Shokin, the guy Biden was pressuring to be canned, was BLOCKING the open corruption investigations, not pursuing them, and everybody, but especially Britain (for laundering stuff involving their banks) wanted him gone. Biden got a couple soundbites related to it, so he became essentially the face of getting the dude canned.

    I Zimbra
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    So basically:

    1. The US was going to give a bunch of loans to Ukraine, was concerned about corruption. Asks Ukraine to fire corrupt prosecutor (prosecutor corruption supported by other countries and Ukranian prosecutora working under him
    2. Ukraine fires prosecutor, who was working on a corruption case involving company that Biden’s son was working for, except he wasn’t, because it had been largely abandoned several years prior.
    3. Ukraine themselves notice this, investigate, find no connection or wrongdoing.
    4. Trump concludes this is the wrong answer, withholds aid, strongly implies it will be released if the investigation is reopened and the right answer given.

    Jealous Deva on
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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    So basically:

    1. The US was going to give a bunch of loans to Ukraine, was concerned about corruption. Asks Ukraine to fire corrupt prosecutor (prosecutor corruption supported by other countries and Ukranian prosecutora working under him
    2. Ukraine fires prosecutor, who was working on a corruption case involving company that Biden’s son was working for, except he wasn’t, because it had been largely abandoned several years prior.
    3. Ukraine themselves notice this, investigate, find no connection or wrongdoing.
    4. Trump concludes this is the wrong answer, withholds aid, strongly implies it will be released if the investigation is reopened and the right answer given.

    I'm not sure about 3. I'm not sure (but could be mistaken) that there's been any significant investigation, but I also don't know that there's been any significant wrongdoing indicated in regards to Burisma other than being owned by a dude that was hugely corrupt, and Ukraine has a billion far more pressing and obvious corruption issues it's sorting out at the moment. My understanding (again, could be mistaken) is that Trump is using the lack of an investigation to say that there's corruption there to be discovered, while Ukraine's stated position is that there's no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens, so what the fuck are we supposed to investigate?

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    So basically:

    1. The US was going to give a bunch of loans to Ukraine, was concerned about corruption. Asks Ukraine to fire corrupt prosecutor (prosecutor corruption supported by other countries and Ukranian prosecutora working under him
    2. Ukraine fires prosecutor, who was working on a corruption case involving company that Biden’s son was working for, except he wasn’t, because it had been largely abandoned several years prior.
    3. Ukraine themselves notice this, investigate, find no connection or wrongdoing.
    4. Trump concludes this is the wrong answer, withholds aid, strongly implies it will be released if the investigation is reopened and the right answer given.

    I'm not sure about 3. I'm not sure (but could be mistaken) that there's been any significant investigation, but I also don't know that there's been any significant wrongdoing indicated in regards to Burisma other than being owned by a dude that was hugely corrupt, and Ukraine has a billion far more pressing and obvious corruption issues it's sorting out at the moment. My understanding (again, could be mistaken) is that Trump is using the lack of an investigation to say that there's corruption there to be discovered, while Ukraine's stated position is that there's no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens, so what the fuck are we supposed to investigate?

    Ah I took that statement as implying they had looked into it and couldn’t find anything.

  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    So basically:

    1. The US was going to give a bunch of loans to Ukraine, was concerned about corruption. Asks Ukraine to fire corrupt prosecutor (prosecutor corruption supported by other countries and Ukranian prosecutora working under him
    2. Ukraine fires prosecutor, who was working on a corruption case involving company that Biden’s son was working for, except he wasn’t, because it had been largely abandoned several years prior.
    3. Ukraine themselves notice this, investigate, find no connection or wrongdoing.
    4. Trump concludes this is the wrong answer, withholds aid, strongly implies it will be released if the investigation is reopened and the right answer given.

    I'm not sure about 3. I'm not sure (but could be mistaken) that there's been any significant investigation, but I also don't know that there's been any significant wrongdoing indicated in regards to Burisma other than being owned by a dude that was hugely corrupt, and Ukraine has a billion far more pressing and obvious corruption issues it's sorting out at the moment. My understanding (again, could be mistaken) is that Trump is using the lack of an investigation to say that there's corruption there to be discovered, while Ukraine's stated position is that there's no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens, so what the fuck are we supposed to investigate?

    It's not about the investigation. It's about trying to smear Joe Biden's family by making him look like his son had some hinky backroom dealings (something on which Donald is an expert) while in the Ukraine, so the GOP can use that to try and fuck Biden real good in election season.

    steam_sig.png
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  • KaputaKaputa Registered User regular
    Um... here's the Washington Post with footage of Trump confirming, live to camera, that he withheld military aid from The Ukraine (who are dealing with the annexation of The Crimea by Russia) before his phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but... The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally withhold funds that Congress has appropriated, right? This is straight up illegal, right?
    I'm unsure of the legality, but I remember Obama doing something similar with Egyptian military aid after military rule was established there in 2013 (and then backing down after Russia made noises about selling them arms instead). The US gives the executive a great deal of authority with foreign policy issues - which is one reason that the lack of attention paid to foreign policy in the presidential race is frustrating and stupid - so I wouldn't be surprised if it was legal or at least not explicitly illegal.

    NSDFRandRchanen
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Um... here's the Washington Post with footage of Trump confirming, live to camera, that he withheld military aid from The Ukraine (who are dealing with the annexation of The Crimea by Russia) before his phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but... The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally withhold funds that Congress has appropriated, right? This is straight up illegal, right?
    I'm unsure of the legality, but I remember Obama doing something similar with Egyptian military aid after military rule was established there in 2013 (and then backing down after Russia made noises about selling them arms instead). The US gives the executive a great deal of authority with foreign policy issues - which is one reason that the lack of attention paid to foreign policy in the presidential race is frustrating and stupid - so I wouldn't be surprised if it was legal or at least not explicitly illegal.

    May have been a different mechanism, or maybe not, but reporting has briefly mentioned lawmakers were questioning if OMB had the legal authority to direct DoD and State to not release the money.

    But that could have just been grumbling, and I haven't read more about it.

  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    edited September 24
    .
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Um... here's the Washington Post with footage of Trump confirming, live to camera, that he withheld military aid from The Ukraine (who are dealing with the annexation of The Crimea by Russia) before his phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but... The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally withhold funds that Congress has appropriated, right? This is straight up illegal, right?
    I'm unsure of the legality, but I remember Obama doing something similar with Egyptian military aid after military rule was established there in 2013 (and then backing down after Russia made noises about selling them arms instead). The US gives the executive a great deal of authority with foreign policy issues - which is one reason that the lack of attention paid to foreign policy in the presidential race is frustrating and stupid - so I wouldn't be surprised if it was legal or at least not explicitly illegal.

    The fundamental of most forms of corruption is using perfectly legal authority with crooked intent. Mayor Bob has the discretion to give that cushy city contract to whoever, and it very well may be best if he gives it to his friend's company who has years of expertise and can offer their services at a competitive price. But he could also be grossly incompetent and pocket the money, which is why you recuse yourself from decisions like that, or just say your friend's stuff ain't under consideration at all, to prevent even the whiff of conflicts of interest.

    Pressuring another country to enact policies you want (in this case, stamping down on corruption), is a pretty normal and humdrum thing. Pressuring another country to specifically create specific allegations against a specific person? When the 'evidence' is so scant? And specifically against a political rival? That's a very different beast.

    ArcTangent on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Kaputa wrote: »
    Um... here's the Washington Post with footage of Trump confirming, live to camera, that he withheld military aid from The Ukraine (who are dealing with the annexation of The Crimea by Russia) before his phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but... The President doesn't have the authority to unilaterally withhold funds that Congress has appropriated, right? This is straight up illegal, right?
    I'm unsure of the legality, but I remember Obama doing something similar with Egyptian military aid after military rule was established there in 2013 (and then backing down after Russia made noises about selling them arms instead). The US gives the executive a great deal of authority with foreign policy issues - which is one reason that the lack of attention paid to foreign policy in the presidential race is frustrating and stupid - so I wouldn't be surprised if it was legal or at least not explicitly illegal.

    Context matters, though. As a legitimate foreign policy concern, probably. As an extortion racket to help your reelection campaign, no. In the same way that remarking about how flammable a restaurant seems can either be viewed as recommending building renovations or conspiracy to commit arson depending

    SmrtnikElldrenDarkPrimus
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    JaysonFour wrote: »
    ArcTangent wrote: »
    So basically:

    1. The US was going to give a bunch of loans to Ukraine, was concerned about corruption. Asks Ukraine to fire corrupt prosecutor (prosecutor corruption supported by other countries and Ukranian prosecutora working under him
    2. Ukraine fires prosecutor, who was working on a corruption case involving company that Biden’s son was working for, except he wasn’t, because it had been largely abandoned several years prior.
    3. Ukraine themselves notice this, investigate, find no connection or wrongdoing.
    4. Trump concludes this is the wrong answer, withholds aid, strongly implies it will be released if the investigation is reopened and the right answer given.

    I'm not sure about 3. I'm not sure (but could be mistaken) that there's been any significant investigation, but I also don't know that there's been any significant wrongdoing indicated in regards to Burisma other than being owned by a dude that was hugely corrupt, and Ukraine has a billion far more pressing and obvious corruption issues it's sorting out at the moment. My understanding (again, could be mistaken) is that Trump is using the lack of an investigation to say that there's corruption there to be discovered, while Ukraine's stated position is that there's no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Bidens, so what the fuck are we supposed to investigate?

    It's not about the investigation. It's about trying to smear Joe Biden's family by making him look like his son had some hinky backroom dealings (something on which Donald is an expert) while in the Ukraine, so the GOP can use that to try and fuck Biden real good in election season.

    I think they meant to get the dirt much later on, like after the primaries. If this scandal takes down Biden and weakens Trump, the Democrats just got a big election advantage, because Biden is a very weak candidate.

    painfulPleasance
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Fresh Trump tweet this morning about Iran:



    So yeah, everything is still on course until a side blinks first.

  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    It's already come out that he said he'd meet with Iranian leaders without any conditions.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited September 27
    Viskod wrote: »
    It's already come out that he said he'd meet with Iranian leaders without any conditions.

    Lifting sanctions is a condition, sorry to say, so that can be interpreted as Trump not demanding any further concessions from Iran before a meeting. It says nothing about Iran getting a concession from the US....which, yeah, not happening.

    TryCatcher on
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  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Congratulations on your continued oppressive communist rule.

    President Trump:Congratulations to President Xi and the Chinese people on the 70th Anniversary of the People’s Republic of China!

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    CNN had a report about resuming lower-level talks with North Korea. I assume they’ll quickly set up another summit-type meeting so Trump can get away from all the negativity with his good friend.

  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    Viskod wrote: »
    Congratulations on your continued oppressive communist rule.

    I don't put this in the same category as his praise for Duterte or even bin Salman, at the end of the day the U.S. economy remains completely intertwined with the Chinese one, so the countries remain pretty close despite whatever posturing and border skirmishes they conduct.

    rahkeesh2000 on
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    Doodmann
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    Last week, they were accused in front of the UN of harvesting from minority groups including the Uighurs who are in "re-education camps" right now, so yeah, they're kinda on a whole different level :/

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Isn't the trade war still on?

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