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[US Foreign Policy] Don't be a tough guy. Don't be a fool!

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Posts

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    I'm pretty confident that all future treaties with us will have, effectively, Trump Majeure sections added to them in order to make backing out require something more substantial than just Presidential notice.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    The US will get the worst of it though. In the last 3 years we've devalued NATO, devalued our relationship with basically every democratic EU member, reneged on a deal with Iran for purely political reasons, refused to even acknowledge human rights violations by Saudi Arabia and China, exchanged photo ops with North Korean leadership for nothing in return, and told the intelligence apparatuses of basically every free nation that we don't respect them.

    Maybe the next Democratic President should go on an apology tour!

    This, but without the least tiniest hint of irony.

    OrcaCelestialBadgerThawmusGennenalyse RuebenFoolOnTheHill
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    So the EU is not super thrilled about Turkey's latest military adventure. Turkey are therefore threatening to flood Europe with Syrian refugees (the EU is paying Turkey to house them in Turkey) if the EU doesn't shut its big yap.

    Via Norwegian public broadcaster NRK, but I'm sure other outlets have it as well.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    So is it pretty much understood at this point that Trump is getting out of the way in hopes that Turkey moves in in order to distract from his domestic scandals? ‘Wagging the dog’ to some extent, if I’m using the term correctly?

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    So is it pretty much understood at this point that Trump is getting out of the way in hopes that Turkey moves in in order to distract from his domestic scandals? ‘Wagging the dog’ to some extent, if I’m using the term correctly?

    No, I think he just doesn't care.

    In any broader light, which I'm not confident in him considering, it's following through on bringing troops home plus being able to crow some more about defeating ISIS. The fact this is likely to make ISIS resurgent doesn't matter, and if it does it's not his fault.

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    So the EU is not super thrilled about Turkey's latest military adventure. Turkey are therefore threatening to flood Europe with Syrian refugees (the EU is paying Turkey to house them in Turkey) if the EU doesn't shut its big yap.

    Via Norwegian public broadcaster NRK, but I'm sure other outlets have it as well.

    I'm sure the EU is also thrilled yesterday Trump directly said "Well isis will fuck europe so who cares". Just a bunch of fun times.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    If anything I suspect Erdogan might be taking advantage of Trump at his absolute weakest point of his presidency so far.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    So the EU is not super thrilled about Turkey's latest military adventure. Turkey are therefore threatening to flood Europe with Syrian refugees (the EU is paying Turkey to house them in Turkey) if the EU doesn't shut its big yap.

    Via Norwegian public broadcaster NRK, but I'm sure other outlets have it as well.

    I recall that they've issued this threat before.

    And my memory was correct:
    25 November 2016
    Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned that he will let hundreds of thousands of migrants travel on to Europe if pushed by the EU.

    He was reacting to a non-binding vote by the European Parliament to freeze talks on EU membership for Turkey.

    The MEPs were alarmed by Mr Erdogan's "disproportionate" response to a failed coup attempt in July.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38103375

    [Expletive deleted]Julius
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    So is it pretty much understood at this point that Trump is getting out of the way in hopes that Turkey moves in in order to distract from his domestic scandals? ‘Wagging the dog’ to some extent, if I’m using the term correctly?

    No, I think he just doesn't care.

    In any broader light, which I'm not confident in him considering, it's following through on bringing troops home plus being able to crow some more about defeating ISIS. The fact this is likely to make ISIS resurgent doesn't matter, and if it does it's not his fault.

    If anything, this looks bad for him. The press coverage seems to be very negative on his decision and it's been consistently characterized as his decision.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    If anything I suspect Erdogan might be taking advantage of Trump at his absolute weakest point of his presidency so far.

    Nah he's just calling in a bribe from years past about Trump properties in turkey. He just wants to get his while Trump is in office.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    BigJoeMthatassemblyguyLovelymcpRchanen
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Jesus Christ Almighty! The Politico scoop from Natasha is that Lyndsay Graham was pranked by some Russians in a hoax call and ended up accidentally dishing out a shitload of stuff that make both him and Trump look VERY bad while thinking he was on the phone to the Turkish defense minister!


    Taken from the impeachment thread, but is this Graham talking out of both sides of his mouth? Like wasn't he all "WE BETRAYED OUR ALLIES!" and here he's claiming they are a threat?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
    mcpFencingsaxGnome-InterruptusGennenalyse RuebenElldren
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    The US will get the worst of it though. In the last 3 years we've devalued NATO, devalued our relationship with basically every democratic EU member, reneged on a deal with Iran for purely political reasons, refused to even acknowledge human rights violations by Saudi Arabia and China, exchanged photo ops with North Korean leadership for nothing in return, and told the intelligence apparatuses of basically every free nation that we don't respect them.

    Maybe the next Democratic President should go on an apology tour!

    This, but without the least tiniest hint of irony.

    The next Democratic President can apologize all they like, but other countries will not care because they know that in 4-8 years they are going to be dealing with the next racist, dickheaded ignoramus the Republican party dredges up from their own personal sewer.

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/lindsey-graham-trump-hoax-call-043991
    “Your YPG Kurdish problem is a big problem,” Graham told the pranksters. He was referring to the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, a group that began fighting ISIS as part of the Syrian Democratic Forces in 2015—with support from the U.S.—but is considered a terrorist group by Turkey because of its push to establish an autonomous state for the Kurds on the Turkish-Syrian border.

    “I told President Trump that Obama made a huge mistake in relying on the YPG Kurds,” Graham continued. “Everything I worried about has come true, and now we have to make sure Turkey is protected from this threat in Syria. I’m sympathetic to the YPG problem, and so is the president, quite frankly.”
    In the hoax call, Graham suggested that the president would try to help Erdogan regarding that case as best he could. “I like President Erdogan,” Graham told the pranksters. “I think President Trump likes President Erdogan. I think he’s a strong man and we need to deal with strong people."
    These people always love authoritarian strong men.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Jesus Christ Almighty! The Politico scoop from Natasha is that Lyndsay Graham was pranked by some Russians in a hoax call and ended up accidentally dishing out a shitload of stuff that make both him and Trump look VERY bad while thinking he was on the phone to the Turkish defense minister!


    Taken from the impeachment thread, but is this Graham talking out of both sides of his mouth? Like wasn't he all "WE BETRAYED OUR ALLIES!" and here he's claiming they are a threat?

    Even uses the phrase "Kurdish problem." That's not a formulation that's gone to some pretty dark places in the past or anything...

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    Wait so Turkey and Iran are secretly corruption buddies? Iran is laundering money through Turkey and Trump was trying to help quash the investigation into this?

    So Trump is indirectly in Iran's pocket indirectly through Erdogan? Iran-Contra?

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.


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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    CelestialBadgerFencingsax
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Jesus Christ Almighty! The Politico scoop from Natasha is that Lyndsay Graham was pranked by some Russians in a hoax call and ended up accidentally dishing out a shitload of stuff that make both him and Trump look VERY bad while thinking he was on the phone to the Turkish defense minister!


    Taken from the impeachment thread, but is this Graham talking out of both sides of his mouth? Like wasn't he all "WE BETRAYED OUR ALLIES!" and here he's claiming they are a threat?

    Lindsey has all the conviction of a well oiled weather vein in a twister isn't exactly ground breaking.

    Russians trolling the fuck out of him on the other hand...

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    TicaldfjamFencingsaxBlackDragon480JaysonFourGennenalyse Rueben
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    Pretty much. Every official agreement will have a million get out clauses and conditions added in, just in case the Republicans are in power again.

    And every one of them will be weakened by that.


    CelestialBadgerPhillishereFencingsaxNobeardBullheadmonikerRchanenthatassemblyguyCantideElldrenemp123
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Jesus Christ Almighty! The Politico scoop from Natasha is that Lyndsay Graham was pranked by some Russians in a hoax call and ended up accidentally dishing out a shitload of stuff that make both him and Trump look VERY bad while thinking he was on the phone to the Turkish defense minister!


    Taken from the impeachment thread, but is this Graham talking out of both sides of his mouth? Like wasn't he all "WE BETRAYED OUR ALLIES!" and here he's claiming they are a threat?

    Lindsey has all the conviction of a well oiled weather vein in a twister isn't exactly ground breaking.

    Russians trolling the fuck out of him on the other hand...

    Possibly showing that we've moved on from the useful idiot stage to the chaos stage.

    XaquinCommander ZoomAimTicaldfjamEmerlmaster999NightslyrFencingsaxNobeardToxRchanenRaiju
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Jesus Christ Almighty! The Politico scoop from Natasha is that Lyndsay Graham was pranked by some Russians in a hoax call and ended up accidentally dishing out a shitload of stuff that make both him and Trump look VERY bad while thinking he was on the phone to the Turkish defense minister!


    Taken from the impeachment thread, but is this Graham talking out of both sides of his mouth? Like wasn't he all "WE BETRAYED OUR ALLIES!" and here he's claiming they are a threat?

    Lindsey has all the conviction of a well oiled weather vein in a twister isn't exactly ground breaking.

    Russians trolling the fuck out of him on the other hand...

    Possibly showing that we've moved on from the useful idiot stage to the chaos stage.

    Yup.

    Putin's whole thing with trump wasn't some effort to make the US a proxy of russia, it was to discombobulate it on the international stage as much as possible and now it's doing the same to it internally so that the country remains in as much turmoil as possible.

    It's like watching a 4chan op on tumblr enacted in real time.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    Commander ZoomFencingsaxBlackDragon480monikerVeagleCantideElldrenemp123
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Since Natasha from Politico and NBC is dishing out the quotes from this call let’s all just take a moment to marvel and the fucking spineless fucking craven fucking bullshit fucking lies parroted by the fucking asshole who fucking swore last fucking December that fucking over the Kurds was the worst fucking decision the current US administration could make.


    FOR CONTEXT! A tweet from fucking Graham himself last fucking December, less than a year ago


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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    The US right has lost all sense of epistemology. They don't believe in facts or trust anyone except those who they perceive as their own. Its a mindset primed for totalitarian propaganda.

    But the US isn't a totalitarian state, so there is no totalitarian entity stomping out all narratives except the one truth, anyone can step up and become a right-wing grifter if they play the part right. The Russians have come in, pretended to be or secretly backed right wing sources, and then subtly (or in plain sight) manipulated those sources into positions favorable to Russia.

    Since the US right believes anything and trusts nothing, they're the perfect stooges for foreign manipulation.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    TryCatcherFencingsaxIncenjucar
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Lindsey Graham is the Starscream of Republican politics.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    Pretty much. Every official agreement will have a million get out clauses and conditions added in, just in case the Republicans are in power again.

    And every one of them will be weakened by that.

    The GOP is 100 percent ignoring treaties right now, even though they are considered U.S. law. I'm not sure how you write an agreement that takes into account that the other party has a history of saying, 'Fuck the law, I'm doing what I want." and getting away with it.

    Commander ZoomDesktop HippieBlackDragon480NobeardIncenjucarGnome-InterruptusElldren
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    So, Graham was all just cocodrile tears? Say it ain't so.

    XaquinCommander ZoomTicaldfjamFencingsaxNobeardmonikerToxGennenalyse Rueben
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    I don't think there's much insight to be gained from reading anything in to what Graham said. Say what you will about him, he knows how to tell people what they want to hear.

    rahkeesh2000FencingsaxshrykeTox
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    I wonder if Graham has any beliefs of his own or if he's just an empty vessel for power.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    I don't think there's much insight to be gained from reading anything in to what Graham said. Say what you will about him, he knows how to tell people what they want to hear.

    It does torpedo any "But What about the Kurds?" comment since the people saying it do not give a fuck about the Kurds.

    Zibblsnrt
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I wonder if Graham has any beliefs of his own or if he's just an empty vessel for power.

    I bet he truly hates all minorities, all religions, and nearly everyone not born in the south

    ZibblsnrtJohnny ChopsockyEncTicaldfjamNobeardIncenjucarToxDonnictonGennenalyse RuebenRickRude
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    We really need to get it in precedent that withdrawing from a ratified treaty has the same bar as ratification - a supermajority in the senate.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    We really need to get it in precedent that withdrawing from a ratified treaty has the same bar as ratification - a supermajority in the senate.

    Is the current bar basically "the president says so, done!" or does Congress at least theoretically get a say?

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    We really need to get it in precedent that withdrawing from a ratified treaty has the same bar as ratification - a supermajority in the senate.

    The problem is bigger than the rules. You cannot bind authoritarians with words.

    Commander ZoomWACriminalFencingsaxCouscousNobeardToxGennenalyse Rueben
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Graham opposes Trump on Turkey.
    Politico happens to have a call about Turkey made by Russian "pranksters" associated with Russia's intelligence apparatus the following day.

    Weird!

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    We really need to get it in precedent that withdrawing from a ratified treaty has the same bar as ratification - a supermajority in the senate.

    The problem is bigger than the rules. You cannot bind authoritarians with words.

    What exactly do you call court rulings?

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    We really need to get it in precedent that withdrawing from a ratified treaty has the same bar as ratification - a supermajority in the senate.

    The problem is bigger than the rules. You cannot bind authoritarians with words.

    What exactly do you call court rulings?

    Toothless if they can't be meaningfully enforced.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    I don't think there's much insight to be gained from reading anything in to what Graham said. Say what you will about him, he knows how to tell people what they want to hear.

    It does torpedo any "But What about the Kurds?" comment since the people saying it do not give a fuck about the Kurds.

    I certainly assume he cares more about how bailing on foreign proxies looks to future foreign proxies than he does about foreign civilian casualties. But I didn't need this call to form that opinion.

    One thing I do think is worth noting about that call is that it was made in August by the same Russian "pranksters" who tried to smear Schiff, and only now released after Graham spent all of yesterday beating Trump up about Syria.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    edited October 10
    .
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    It really is hard to see how the US can recover from this. It’s going to take at least a generation. It’s sad to say, but the US, or certainly the republicans, will be a byword for treachery and untrustworthiness. I can’t see how any US ally happy to deal with the Democrats won’t close their doors and shutter their windows the second the Republicans are in charge. How can any of us trust them?

    Even here in Ireland we’ve had the US Democrats promising to pressure the UK to honor the Good Friday Agreement while Trump and Pence have openly sided with the pro Brexit crowd in the UK wanting to scrap it for their own ends. That’s not the sort of shit we forget.

    You can't make a treaty with a domestic political party. All considerations are going to have to de facto assume the GOP are always in charge, because they will be at some point.

    If Democrats honor Republican deals, but Republicans do not honor Democrat deals, foreign countries will only make deals with Republicans. This will lead uninformed US voters to ask "How come Democrats are so ineffectual in foreign affairs? Why do we bother voting for these weaklings who promise the earth and then just do exactly what Republicans say? Do they think we are idiots? We will stay home on election day to teach them a lesson about taking advantage of our vote."

    Devilish.

    We really need to get it in precedent that withdrawing from a ratified treaty has the same bar as ratification - a supermajority in the senate.

    The problem is bigger than the rules. You cannot bind authoritarians with words.

    What exactly do you call court rulings?

    Court rulings are words, and authoritarians don't consider themselves bound by those. Remember, the current president's declared the notion of impeachment to be unconstitutional, and has said explicitly on multiple occasions that his political authority is absolute in all things up to and including amending the Constitution.

    Words don't bind people like that. The only thing that does bind them is power, in the hands of other institutions, which are willing to use said power to enforce the rules. Not just laws, but actual tangible enforcement of the consequences for violating them, or at least the credible threat of same.

    Zibblsnrt on
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    I don't think there's much insight to be gained from reading anything in to what Graham said. Say what you will about him, he knows how to tell people what they want to hear.

    It does torpedo any "But What about the Kurds?" comment since the people saying it do not give a fuck about the Kurds.

    I certainly assume he cares more about how bailing on foreign proxies looks to future foreign proxies than he does about foreign civilian casualties. But I didn't need this call to form that opinion.

    One thing I do think is worth noting about that call is that it was made in August by the same Russian "pranksters" who tried to smear Schiff, and only now released after Graham spent all of yesterday beating Trump up about Syria.

    Clearly a russian rat fuck, but Graham literally did say this, and you know what I'm ok outing that piece of dog shit as a double talking piece of shit outrage merchant.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

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