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[US Foreign Policy] Don't be a tough guy. Don't be a fool!

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Posts

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    Jragghen wrote: »
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    Last week, they were accused in front of the UN of harvesting from minority groups including the Uighurs who are in "re-education camps" right now, so yeah, they're kinda on a whole different level :/

    obligatory Larry Niven "organleggers" ref goes here.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    Viskod wrote: »
    Congratulations on your continued oppressive communist rule.

    I don't put this in the same category as his praise for Duterte or even bin Salman, at the end of the day the U.S. economy remains completely intertwined with the Chinese one, so the countries remain pretty close despite whatever posturing and border skirmishes they conduct.

    It's about as much thought or effort as a Facebook birthday card. Which...we have a State Department in order to be able to do better and more nuanced than that.

    moniker on
    CouscousGnome-InterruptusJragghenRchanen
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Isn't the trade war still on?

    Yup. Dairy producers are suffering in part because of that.

    https://apnews.com/5045af6cf4a24626aad0e406a965f86e
    MADISON, Wis. (AP) — President Donald Trump’s agriculture secretary said Tuesday during a stop in Wisconsin that he doesn’t know if the family dairy farm can survive as the industry moves toward a factory farm model.

    U.S. Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue told reporters following an appearance at the World Dairy Expo in Madison that it’s getting harder for farmers to get by on milking smaller herds.

    “In America, the big get bigger and the small go out,” Perdue said. “I don’t think in America we, for any small business, we have a guaranteed income or guaranteed profitability.”

    According to a September analysis by the U.S. Dairy Export Council, U.S. dairy solids exports to China fell by 43 percent overall in the 11 months starting in July 2018, when China enacted the first round of retaliatory tariffs on U.S. dairy products. About 3.7 billion pounds of U.S. farmers’ milk had to find other markets during that span, the analysis found.

    Chinese leaders have said they’re ready to talk but will take whatever steps are necessary to protect their rights.

    Perdue responded to Lyon’s question by calling the Chinese “cheaters.”

    “They toyed us into being more dependent on their markets than them on us. That’s what the problem has been,” he said. “They can’t expect to come into our country freely and fairly without opening up their markets.”

    The secretary said the Trump administration is working to expand other international markets, including targeting India, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan and Malaysia. He said he had expected Congress to ratify a new trade agreement between the United States, Mexico and Canada to replace NAFTA but noted that Washington has been distracted over the last few days, an allusion to impeachment proceedings against Trump ramping up last week.

  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    Viskod wrote: »
    Congratulations on your continued oppressive communist rule.

    I don't put this in the same category as his praise for Duterte or even bin Salman, at the end of the day the U.S. economy remains completely intertwined with the Chinese one, so the countries remain pretty close despite whatever posturing and border skirmishes they conduct.

    It's about as much thought or effort as a Facebook birthday card. Which...we have a State Department in order to be able to do better and more nuanced than that.

    Had a State Department.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    Couscous wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Isn't the trade war still on?

    Yup. Dairy producers are suffering in part because of that.

    https://apnews.com/5045af6cf4a24626aad0e406a965f86e
    MADISON, Wis. (AP) — President Donald Trump’s agriculture secretary said Tuesday during a stop in Wisconsin that he doesn’t know if the family dairy farm can survive as the industry moves toward a factory farm model.

    U.S. Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue told reporters following an appearance at the World Dairy Expo in Madison that it’s getting harder for farmers to get by on milking smaller herds.

    “In America, the big get bigger and the small go out,” Perdue said. “I don’t think in America we, for any small business, we have a guaranteed income or guaranteed profitability.”

    According to a September analysis by the U.S. Dairy Export Council, U.S. dairy solids exports to China fell by 43 percent overall in the 11 months starting in July 2018, when China enacted the first round of retaliatory tariffs on U.S. dairy products. About 3.7 billion pounds of U.S. farmers’ milk had to find other markets during that span, the analysis found.

    Chinese leaders have said they’re ready to talk but will take whatever steps are necessary to protect their rights.

    Perdue responded to Lyon’s question by calling the Chinese “cheaters.”

    “They toyed us into being more dependent on their markets than them on us. That’s what the problem has been,” he said. “They can’t expect to come into our country freely and fairly without opening up their markets.”

    The secretary said the Trump administration is working to expand other international markets, including targeting India, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan and Malaysia. He said he had expected Congress to ratify a new trade agreement between the United States, Mexico and Canada to replace NAFTA but noted that Washington has been distracted over the last few days, an allusion to impeachment proceedings against Trump ramping up last week.

    So, Mr. Secretary, you are saying that the Chinese sinisterly manipulated international trade by... Eating a lot of cheese so that dairy farmers would be dependent on selling to them?

    Damn forget the organ thing, that’s real evil right there.

    Jealous Deva on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Remember which side of the equation Perdue rests, and what benefits him personally.

    Because he's an asshole.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Remember which side of the equation Perdue rests, and what benefits him personally.

    Because he's an asshole.

    I know, it’s just such an asinine thing to say if you think about it for 5 seconds.

    Secret Chinese Economic Domination plan:

    1. Start eating lots of cheese and solid dairy products.
    2. Buy lots of dairy from US
    3. Wait for US dairy farmers to become dependent on Chinese purchases
    4. Suddenly stop eating so much cheese
    5. Win!

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Remember which side of the equation Perdue rests, and what benefits him personally.

    Because he's an asshole.

    I know, it’s just such an asinine thing to say if you think about it for 5 seconds.

    Secret Chinese Economic Domination plan:

    1. Start eating lots of cheese and solid dairy products.
    2. Buy lots of dairy from US
    3. Wait for US dairy farmers to become dependent on Chinese purchases
    4. Suddenly stop eating so much cheese
    5. Win!

    So, to sum up, trade deficits are bad, and trade surpluses are a trap?

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    I know it was just the first of several countries mentioned, but is Sonny Perdue actually targeting India as an option to sell our dairy to? I know it's a huge and diverse country, but selling dairy in India does not sound like a winning strategy.

    PhillishereBandable
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 1
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Remember which side of the equation Perdue rests, and what benefits him personally.

    Because he's an asshole.

    I know, it’s just such an asinine thing to say if you think about it for 5 seconds.

    Secret Chinese Economic Domination plan:

    1. Start eating lots of cheese and solid dairy products.
    2. Buy lots of dairy from US
    3. Wait for US dairy farmers to become dependent on Chinese purchases
    4. Suddenly stop eating so much cheeseWait for Americans to elect an idiot President who puts tariffs on you and then retaliate against US agriculture in response even though you'd rather not
    5. Win!

    moniker on
  • MortiousMortious The Nightmare Begins Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited October 1
    Veevee wrote: »
    I know it was just the first of several countries mentioned, but is Sonny Perdue actually targeting India as an option to sell our dairy to? I know it's a huge and diverse country, but selling dairy in India does not sound like a winning strategy.

    Hmm, they do use a lot of dairy so on it's face it seems like a good idea?

    But then because of that, they produce a lot of dairy and possibly at a cheaper price because of labour, but I don't really know how much that would cost.

    Also I would guess if there's one sector that has trade protections it would probably be that.

    edit: If trade agreements allow, they could go for the forgein import angle where people prefer imports from other countries over local producers because of the reputation of those countires versus the issues with local producers. (i.e. adulteration, quality control). That can smooth over some of the price differences. It's a plus for NZ dairy exports to China or instance. I don't know the reputation of American goods in India, but if it's positive I can see a market there. India aparently has some issues with their dairy quality.

    Mortious on
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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    Last week, they were accused in front of the UN of harvesting from minority groups including the Uighurs who are in "re-education camps" right now, so yeah, they're kinda on a whole different level :/

    There's been reports of them harvesting organs from the Falun Gong for like 10+ years now.

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  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    edited October 2
    Protests have erupted in Kiev tonight demanding Zelenskyy’s resignation. The protests broke out when Zelenskyy gave his backing to the Steinmeier Formula, giving the green light to elections in occupied Donbas, a move that was seen as bending to Russia’s will.


    Alex is a country risk analyst who studies Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

    Desktop Hippie on

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    Last week, they were accused in front of the UN of harvesting from minority groups including the Uighurs who are in "re-education camps" right now, so yeah, they're kinda on a whole different level :/

    There's been reports of them harvesting organs from the Falun Gong for like 10+ years now.

    You'd have thought we'd hear more about this genocide. It makes the massacre of the Rohingya sound like a teddy bear's picnic.

    But our masters have an interest in us considering China our friend.

    IncenjucarKristmas Kthulhu
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    Last week, they were accused in front of the UN of harvesting from minority groups including the Uighurs who are in "re-education camps" right now, so yeah, they're kinda on a whole different level :/

    There's been reports of them harvesting organs from the Falun Gong for like 10+ years now.

    You'd have thought we'd hear more about this genocide. It makes the massacre of the Rohingya sound like a teddy bear's picnic.

    But our masters have an interest in us considering China our friend.

    China doing horrible stuff is basically the default. They also have a traveling corpse art exhibit believed to be dead prisoners.

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  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    Honestly for years I have heard the Falun Gong claims of organ harvesting and my response has been, "that's so fantastically evil that I'm going to need to see some good evidence that it's really happening, and it seems suspicious that this one religious minority that seems to also be proselytizing is the only people talking about this"

    I appear to have made a grave error in judgement.

    Would love to know more about anyone who has investigated/studied transplant wait times in China as direct evidence of this.

    DoodmannGnome-InterruptustynicOrcaCelestialBadger
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    China is no stranger to religious persecution, but Jesus, that's medieval.

    Gnome-InterruptusBlackDragon480CelestialBadgerMarathonKristmas Kthulhu
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Protests have erupted in Kiev tonight demanding Zelenskyy’s resignation. The protests broke out when Zelenskyy gave his backing to the Steinmeier Formula, giving the green light to elections in occupied Donbas, a move that was seen as bending to Russia’s will.


    Alex is a country risk analyst who studies Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

    Over/under on him doing this because Trump instructed him to?

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Or he's realized that no help is coming from the US, so his only option is doing what Putin "asks".

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I always tend to assume that the reasoning in something like this will be largely due to domestic matters that we just don't know about due to lack of experience with Ukraine's domestic politics

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  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit I'm a good person yes it's trueRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I always tend to assume that the reasoning in something like this will be largely due to domestic matters that we just don't know about due to lack of experience with Ukraine's domestic politics

    In this case domestic politics and international politics overlap considerably

    fuck gendered marketing
    Commander Zoom
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Protests have erupted in Kiev tonight demanding Zelenskyy’s resignation. The protests broke out when Zelenskyy gave his backing to the Steinmeier Formula, giving the green light to elections in occupied Donbas, a move that was seen as bending to Russia’s will.


    Alex is a country risk analyst who studies Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

    Over/under on him doing this because Trump instructed him to?

    A lot of people in Ukraine and outside of it have been pointing to Trump telling Zelenskyy that he hoped he and Putin could “work out your problem” during that car crash press conference.


    ElldrenRchanenCommander ZoomCelestialBadger
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Jamal Khashoggi was murdered a year ago today. His friends and colleagues at the Washington Post have been remembering his life and pondering his legacy.


    Brian is with CNN.


  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    That feels like it was both yesterday and 100 years ago.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Protests have erupted in Kiev tonight demanding Zelenskyy’s resignation. The protests broke out when Zelenskyy gave his backing to the Steinmeier Formula, giving the green light to elections in occupied Donbas, a move that was seen as bending to Russia’s will.


    Alex is a country risk analyst who studies Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.

    Over/under on him doing this because Trump instructed him to?

    Rumors are circulating that Trump suggesting he do this is also on the whistleblower calls, was hinted at in their interviews, and is part of the briefing this morning.

    Marathon
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Yup Trump is strongarming Ukraine into surrendering to Russia

    great.

    I'm also guessing the call showing Zelensky licking Trump's boots didn't help his position much either

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    I mean, I would assume he's doing it because what are his other options? Open war with Russia? The status quo isn't really tenable to be able to just keep it up.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Problem is, by giving up Donbass Russia will just move to the next chunk closer to Kiev. And then the next chunk.

    See also: Georgia since 1999.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2
    When essential support from the US is in jeopardy he doesn't exactly have a good negotiating position

    There probably would have been a deal at some point but Trump's completely fucked any leverage they had

    nexuscrawler on
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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    I mean, I would assume he's doing it because what are his other options? Open war with Russia? The status quo isn't really tenable to be able to just keep it up.

    They've just got to hold out until Putin dies or Trump leaves office. Nothing about the status quo right now is stable, so letting the stalemate fester until the current crop of old men in power die is probably the best option.

  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    I don’t know enough about Zelenskyy’s personal politics, but man is he in a shitty position.

    He has to suck Trump’s ass just to talk to him, then get minimal help because Trump is in Putin’s pocket, so he’s forced to cede ground in the hope it will buy some time before Putin wants to take another bite out of Ukraine. What will he get for that time?

    Probably a noose around his neck by his own people.

    I hope the next President can actually accomplish something for Ukraine and punish the ever loving fuck out of Putin in general.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    I mean, I would assume he's doing it because what are his other options? Open war with Russia? The status quo isn't really tenable to be able to just keep it up.

    They've just got to hold out until Putin dies or Trump leaves office. Nothing about the status quo right now is stable, so letting the stalemate fester until the current crop of old men in power die is probably the best option.

    Putin is only 66. Holding out for multiple decades just doesn't seem likely. Especially since it is a border skirmish instead of an invasion, like Afghanistan. Russia practically lives there too, so it isn't as big of a resource drain. Especially since Russia has ~100m more people than Ukraine.

    Gnome-Interruptusshryke
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    moniker wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    I mean, I would assume he's doing it because what are his other options? Open war with Russia? The status quo isn't really tenable to be able to just keep it up.

    They've just got to hold out until Putin dies or Trump leaves office. Nothing about the status quo right now is stable, so letting the stalemate fester until the current crop of old men in power die is probably the best option.

    Putin is only 66. Holding out for multiple decades just doesn't seem likely. Especially since it is a border skirmish instead of an invasion, like Afghanistan. Russia practically lives there too, so it isn't as big of a resource drain. Especially since Russia has ~100m more people than Ukraine.

    Russia is looking to move the border by force of arms, and likely will be looking to do so again in the near future. I'm not sure what sort of line you're trying to draw here.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Its absolutely an invasion

    over 12,000 people have died. We're not talking about it but Russia and Ukraine are in an active shooting war

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  • Romantic UndeadRomantic Undead Registered User regular
    edited October 2
    There is something really sinister going on in China that I only just heard about.
    Basically, China has the shortest waiting lists on Earth for organ transplants, but no tradition of organ donation. Instead, organs are harvested from executed prisoners. That's yucky enough on its own. But that also seems to be insufficent to supply the organs needed. The horrific inference is that prisoners are being extrajudicially killed for their organs, usually dissidents or religious minorities.

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/index.html

    So China may actually be worse than Duterte or bin Salman. After all, bin Salman only had one guy dismembered.

    This is actually old news to me. We have a population of Chinese immigrants here in Ottawa who are Falun Gong practitioners. They routinely protest, put up signs and hand out flyers in front of Parliament attesting to this. According to them, Falun Gong members are routinely rounded up and "harvested" for this purpose. Been seeing them around town for years now.

    edit: sorry @shryke, didn't see your post

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    I mean, I would assume he's doing it because what are his other options? Open war with Russia? The status quo isn't really tenable to be able to just keep it up.

    They've just got to hold out until Putin dies or Trump leaves office. Nothing about the status quo right now is stable, so letting the stalemate fester until the current crop of old men in power die is probably the best option.

    Putin is only 66. Holding out for multiple decades just doesn't seem likely. Especially since it is a border skirmish instead of an invasion, like Afghanistan. Russia practically lives there too, so it isn't as big of a resource drain. Especially since Russia has ~100m more people than Ukraine.

    Russia is looking to move the border by force of arms, and likely will be looking to do so again in the near future. I'm not sure what sort of line you're trying to draw here.

    That Russia's supply line is entirely through Russia or Russian held territory, which they are also populating. Not across an ocean and other sovereign States that can legitimately cut off access to "Not Russian" troops.

    Ukraine just waiting things out for the foreign invader to exhaust themselves isn't really viable here like in Afghanistan or Vietnam. As also demonstrated by the last multigenerational occupation of Ukraine by Russia.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Its absolutely an invasion

    over 12,000 people have died. We're not talking about it but Russia and Ukraine are in an active shooting war

    It's literally trench warfare. Ukraine's best bet is to keep the conflict frozen in Dunbass, because 66 is actually pretty old for a dictator in a nation that is increasingly bucking against his rule.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Its absolutely an invasion

    over 12,000 people have died. We're not talking about it but Russia and Ukraine are in an active shooting war

    It's literally trench warfare. Ukraine's best bet is to keep the conflict frozen in Dunbass, because 66 is actually pretty old for a dictator in a nation that is increasingly bucking against his rule.

    Yup and this supposed would essentially give up Donbass

  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    The obvious thing here is that even with Donbass Russia wouldn’t have a land route to Crimea, so they have an obvious motive to keep demanding chunks to get there. Next it will be Zaporizhia and Kerson, then it’s going to be some excuse for another reason (control of the Dneipir maybe), then on and on.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited October 2
    The obvious thing here is that even with Donbass Russia wouldn’t have a land route to Crimea, so they have an obvious motive to keep demanding chunks to get there. Next it will be Zaporizhia and Kerson, then it’s going to be some excuse for another reason (control of the Dneipir maybe), then on and on.

    Russia has a land route to Crimea. They built a bridge.

    moniker on
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