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[YouTube] Thread in the PA Test Kitchen

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    Ms DapperMs Dapper Yuri Librarian Registered User regular
    Crippl3 wrote: »
    Man I definitely never even considered looking into it but I had absolutely comfortably assumed Nick Robinson was fucking toast

    yeah, he did a pretty successful Tetris mini-documentary, and got invited to IO Interactive for some Hitman PR thing, among other stuff
    accidentally watched a bit of his Tetris thing before I realized who it was and shut it off

    yeah, he's still gone on to be popular and did streams with also "cancelled" dev Matt Conn

    I was just thinking about how Jordon Peterson was also cancelled for not respecting trans students and now is one of the biggest alt right dudes.

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    WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    Has anyone been canceled, anyone at all? Besides Cosby who I am pretty sure doesnt count? Or Epstein who is definitely canceled but not like for any good reasob

    Probably Milo Yiannopoulos. He did get cancelled by his own side after coming out in support of paedophilia and, last I heard, is now millions in debt after having lost basically his entire audience.

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    ShortyShorty touching the meat Intergalactic Cool CourtRegistered User regular
    Has anyone been canceled, anyone at all? Besides Cosby who I am pretty sure doesnt count? Or Epstein who is definitely canceled but not like for any good reasob

    Probably Milo Yiannopoulos. He did get cancelled by his own side after coming out in support of paedophilia and, last I heard, is now millions in debt after having lost basically his entire audience.

    I think it's weird to call what happened to him being "cancelled"

    he was already a falling star when that happened, due to getting the boot from twitter

    anyway the concept of cancelling is fundamentally nonsense, nobody has been cancelled because it's not a real thing

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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Louis CK at least is still kind of in the wilderness

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    Ms DapperMs Dapper Yuri Librarian Registered User regular
    Every time he pokes his head out he gets applause those

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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    Shorty wrote: »
    Has anyone been canceled, anyone at all? Besides Cosby who I am pretty sure doesnt count? Or Epstein who is definitely canceled but not like for any good reasob

    Probably Milo Yiannopoulos. He did get cancelled by his own side after coming out in support of paedophilia and, last I heard, is now millions in debt after having lost basically his entire audience.

    I think it's weird to call what happened to him being "cancelled"

    he was already a falling star when that happened, due to getting the boot from twitter

    anyway the concept of cancelling is fundamentally nonsense, nobody has been cancelled because it's not a real thing

    The concept of people deciding your career and popularity are over now and taking it from you is not real. Giant angry mobs of people trying to make you miserable and calling that "cancelling" is very obviously a real phenomenon, so I don't know if what you're saying corresponds with the reality of things.

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Has anyone been canceled, anyone at all? Besides Cosby who I am pretty sure doesnt count? Or Epstein who is definitely canceled but not like for any good reasob

    Contrapoints addressed the question of how far the negative effects of "canceling" go. At the extreme end, sometimes people kill themselves. August Ames did so after a social media backlash from a tweet. The idea that "canceling" is toothless and therefore unobjectionable only kinda sorta makes sense if you zero in on the financial end of things and completely ignore everything else.

    WhiteZinfandel on
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    GvzbgulGvzbgul Registered User regular
    And not to mention that when the internet gets all riled up everyone related to the offending person is a target, as well as any unfortunate people who happen to share a similar name.

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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Louis CK at least is still kind of in the wilderness

    No, he's still doing specials. The venues aren't just advertising that he'll be there for reasons that I'm sure have absolutely nothing to do with what happened.

    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    Happiness is within reach!
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    theSquidtheSquid Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    You all are acting like "cancelling" was some kind of protest instead of what you all actually did, which was slander and dox a trans woman for several months and try to get all her friends to dissociate with her, but day its nbd because she has lots of subscribers.

    Some of you are straight up awful human beings.

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    CoinageCoinage Heaviside LayerRegistered User regular
    edited January 2020
    I'm pretty sure everybody posting here has not harassed anyone.

    Coinage on
    Happiness is within reach!
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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    Coinage wrote: »

    Burn it down!
    de6vgs11hfp9.png

    At the 12 minute mark where he talks about the repression of central americans in the south west. California is weird at this time [the late 1800's} As most of the farm labor was of Japanese decent or immigration. up until WW2 where they were replaced by people of central America {This in itself is very complex because of our good neighbor policy} So yes it's not fun when you see the same problems of the past being repeated because they don't know what else to do. Change is scary

    Brainleech on
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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    I can assure you I have done nothing more than explicitly state things that Contrapoints has done. If that's slander then maybe she shouldn't have done those things.

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    "Slander" is kind of subjective and a low bar, so I'd rather ask about who here participated in doxxing ContraPoints. That's a hell of an accusation.

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    I'd also kind of just generally say that I have a certain amount of side-eye for people who feel the need to emphasize that Contra is a trans woman in this discussion. Like yeah. We know. The entire reason this discourse is happening right this second is because other trans people feel uncomfortable and hurt by the fact that she in her video utilized another trans man, Buck Angel, whom has spoken about trans issues in ways that make other trans people feel unsafe. Many of the examples of 'canceling' Contra put up in the video are statements from other trans people. The entire issue is steeped in a spectrum of politics within trans spaces. To invoke Contra's trans-ness while ignoring that of others is like, kind of grody!

    There were absolutely people who were attempting to spread Contra's personal information through twitter DMs when this broke. I personally know people who received the information. Many of the people featured in this video about canceling received those DMs, and made public pleas to the effect of "what the fuck is wrong with you don't try to dox her for this jesus christ".

    This is the greatest issue I have with trying to invoke the concept of cancel culture being a thing that is real, because now I have been accused on this forum of being an awful human being who tried to dox Contra. To paint this as some culture, some mob, is foolish. What happens here is that someone did something that hurt people. These people spoke publicly and angrily about it (And here, for example, had to repeatedly explain themselves and why they felt hurt to people who would say that it's not a big deal). Some people, either newly hurt or harboring a grudge, attempt to take advantage of the anger of others to do further harm. That's the bad actor in this situation, not the people who were hurt. Not the people who try to explain why they're struggling with Contra's popularity despite feeling hurt, only to be met over and over again in this thread with well it's complicated. Like, wow. Fuckin' sorry for being an NB person who felt unsafe as a result of one of the most prominently listened to trans figures saying she wishes courtesies extended to NB people didn't exist because she thinks it makes it harder for her. I can't believe that because that happened, I directly doxxed Contra points.

    Get over yourself. This isn't some binary black and white world. Contrapoints has absolutely been harassed more than I ever will, just by virtue of being a public figure who is trans. I know that. The entire trans community knows that. That doesn't mean she can't hurt us. That doesn't mean some of us can't get mad and frustrated about that hurt. That doesn't mean that people telling us our hurt is invalid doesn't hurt more.

    We don't want Contra to have a miserable life or die or something. We want you, and her, to fucking listen to us for once when we say we've been hurt.

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    LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    theSquid wrote: »
    You all are acting like "cancelling" was some kind of protest instead of what you all actually did, which was slander and dox a trans woman for several months and try to get all her friends to dissociate with her, but day its nbd because she has lots of subscribers.

    Some of you are straight up awful human beings.

    If you’re going to accuse people of this kind of shit, you better back it up, buddy.

    Unless you’re one of those types who thinks crticizing someone on a message board or on their own personal feed is harassment.

    News flash: CP did get harassment, and that sucks. But the majority of people that spoke their mind about her were either giving legit criticism or were venting in their own spaces.

    Trying to paint all of her detractors as a hate mob is dishonest and irresponsible.

    LockedOnTarget on
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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    Even on a more basic level, 'someone got doxxed' does not magically erase their opinions being harmful trash

    Both things can suck simultaneously!

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    theSquidtheSquid Sydney, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    Define "venting in their own spaces" because last I checked Twitter posts are visible to everyone.

    Interestingly both of your complaints to me are addressed in her video, explicitly the difference between "criticism" and "cancelling".

    I don't recall seeing anything on Twitter with the nuance of what gnome posted above, mostly my feed was flooded with people demanding her friends publically condemn her and anyone on their list who supported her would be blocked, which as far as I fucking care is some "drive someone to suicide" shit.

    I'm not arguing that she said dumb stuf. I'm saying what she got in response to that dumb stuff was wildly disproportionate to the point that I think everyone forgot she's a person. She is not a company with a PR team or a knowing bullshit artist like someone on the alt right, but she got treated like one.

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    theSquid wrote: »
    Define "venting in their own spaces" because last I checked Twitter posts are visible to everyone.

    Interestingly both of your complaints to me are addressed in her video, explicitly the difference between "criticism" and "cancelling".

    I don't recall seeing anything on Twitter with the nuance of what gnome posted above, mostly my feed was flooded with people demanding her friends publically condemn her and anyone on their list who supported her would be blocked, which as far as I fucking care is some "drive someone to suicide" shit.

    I'm not arguing that she said dumb stuf. I'm saying what she got in response to that dumb stuff was wildly disproportionate to the point that I think everyone forgot she's a person. She is not a company with a PR team or a knowing bullshit artist like someone on the alt right, but she got treated like one.

    She got treated like someone who deliberately sought to invalidate entire identities in the LGBT community, mine included

    Queer spaces on social media are so quick to grab the pitchforks and 'cancel' someone because it is in many cases the only means of exercising any kind of influence in the world, given how thoroughly we are kept out of places of power

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    LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    theSquid wrote: »
    Define "venting in their own spaces" because last I checked Twitter posts are visible to everyone.

    If I post on my Twitter feed “Donald Trump sucks and can kiss my ass” I am not harassing or bullying Donald Trump. If he namesearches himself or someone snitch tags me, it doesn’t become harassment either.

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    theSquid wrote: »
    Define "venting in their own spaces" because last I checked Twitter posts are visible to everyone.

    If I post on my Twitter feed “Donald Trump sucks and can kiss my ass” I am not harassing or bullying Donald Trump. If he namesearches himself or someone snitch tags me, it doesn’t become harassment either.

    Maybe not, but when a thousand people do the same (and worse, let's not forget the doxxing) to Natalie Wynn and those closest to her, the effect is 100% that of harassment and bullying. She talks in the video about having had suicidal urges as a result and surviving them specifically because of the support of those friends that many urged to disavow her.

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    theSquid wrote: »
    Define "venting in their own spaces" because last I checked Twitter posts are visible to everyone.

    If I post on my Twitter feed “Donald Trump sucks and can kiss my ass” I am not harassing or bullying Donald Trump. If he namesearches himself or someone snitch tags me, it doesn’t become harassment either.

    Maybe not, but when a thousand people do the same (and worse, let's not forget the doxxing) to Natalie Wynn and those closest to her, the effect is 100% that of harassment and bullying. She talks in the video about having had suicidal urges as a result and surviving them specifically because of the support of those friends that many urged to disavow her.

    The doxxing is genuinely unfortunate but when you use a large platform to espouse erasure of entire identities, the feedback is going to be reasonably harsh and widespread, yes

    That does not necessarily construe bullying, especially since those people providing that feedback were largely removed from the doxxing

    That is likely hard for her to see when she is on the receiving end of it, to be fair

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    theSquid wrote: »
    Define "venting in their own spaces" because last I checked Twitter posts are visible to everyone.

    If I post on my Twitter feed “Donald Trump sucks and can kiss my ass” I am not harassing or bullying Donald Trump. If he namesearches himself or someone snitch tags me, it doesn’t become harassment either.

    Maybe not, but when a thousand people do the same (and worse, let's not forget the doxxing) to Natalie Wynn and those closest to her, the effect is 100% that of harassment and bullying. She talks in the video about having had suicidal urges as a result and surviving them specifically because of the support of those friends that many urged to disavow her.

    The doxxing is genuinely unfortunate but when you use a large platform to espouse erasure of entire identities, the feedback is going to be reasonably harsh and widespread, yes

    That does not necessarily construe bullying, especially since those people providing that feedback were largely removed from the doxxing

    That is likely hard for her to see when she is on the receiving end of it, to be fair

    A. She didn't espouse erasure of identities. She explains her reasoning for using ten seconds of Buck Angel's voice in this most recent video and it's got nothing to do with that.

    B. The feedback is not going to be reasonably harsh and widespread, it's going to be vile and oceanic. That's natural when your audience is in the tens of millions and every single one of them has the ability to anonymously and directly respond to you, but it is for fucking sure not reasonable.

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    Including a transmedicalist for any reason deserves harsh feedback, especially when contrapoints has expressed othering views about people outside of the gender binary in the past

    And the consequences of curating a large platform are that when you platform people with vile beliefs, for any reason, you have to deal with the consequences

    Is it nice? No, probably not, and it sucks that people cross some lines during that process

    Is it fair? Absolutely

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    Personal anecdote:

    Some of y'all know that I do community mod work for Waypoint/ VICE Games

    Some of you will remember that while the site has been really successful, it has made a few Capital M Mistakes over the years

    This isn't the place to litigate what went wrong, but the feedback we received and continue to receive has always been from marginalised people who are deeply invested in the few queer spaces and content creators they feel like they can trust

    And when the site fucked up? People got MAD, and justifiably so! Yeah, we would get a few bad actors in those moments trying to capitalize on the reaction but by and large it was people who wanted the site to do better because they believed it could be better

    The same is true here, but the platform is bigger than an article that gets 50 thousand hits

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    Including a transmedicalist for any reason deserves harsh feedback, especially when contrapoints has expressed othering views about people outside of the gender binary in the past

    And the consequences of curating a large platform are that when you platform people with vile beliefs, for any reason, you have to deal with the consequences

    Is it nice? No, probably not, and it sucks that people cross some lines during that process

    Is it fair? Absolutely

    Those "consequences" involved people spreading her personal information around and threatening her physical safety. Is that really your idea of a fair response to having Buck Angel do ten seconds of VO? Really?

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    You'll notice that I said it sucks that people crossed lines

    Nobody should get doxxed except for billionaires

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    You'll notice that I said it sucks that people crossed lines

    Nobody should get doxxed except for billionaires

    Yeah, you said that "it sucks." Then you followed that up with
    Is it fair? Absolutely

    Doxxing somebody and putting them in danger because they used Buck Angel for 10 seconds of VO in an attempt to foster connections and understanding is not "fair." It's morally repugnant and unacceptable.

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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    edited January 2020
    I said it sucks that lines are being crossed in the process of the necessary and fair feedback, and in a prior post I called it genuinely unfortunate

    Please don't use this as a smokescreen to deflect the very real hurt that people you are literally engaging with first hand are expressing

    WeedLordVegeta on
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    shoeboxjeddyshoeboxjeddy Registered User regular
    I said it sucks that lines are being crossed in the process of the necessary and fair feedback, and in a prior post I called it genuinely unfortunate

    Please don't use this as a smokescreen to deflect the very real hurt that people you are literally engaging with first hand are expressing

    Was the targeting of her friends "necessary and fair feedback" would you say?

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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    theSquid wrote: »
    I'm not arguing that she said dumb stuf. I'm saying what she got in response to that dumb stuff was wildly disproportionate to the point that I think everyone forgot she's a person. She is not a company with a PR team or a knowing bullshit artist like someone on the alt right, but she got treated like one.

    This here is using euphemistic language to argue in bad faith. Wynn did not "say dumb stuff", she supported and gave credence to an individual who pushes a position that a large number of transgendered individuals find harmful, and responded to that harm. Dismissing the entire content of why people were angry by calling it "dumb stuff" is a classic deflection tactic.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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    WeedLordVegetaWeedLordVegeta Registered User regular
    I said it sucks that lines are being crossed in the process of the necessary and fair feedback, and in a prior post I called it genuinely unfortunate

    Please don't use this as a smokescreen to deflect the very real hurt that people you are literally engaging with first hand are expressing

    Was the targeting of her friends "necessary and fair feedback" would you say?

    I think we should all analyze our friendships when someone we're close to says some wack shit, and sometimes that requires someone with an outside perspective

    I think I've thoroughly covered my beliefs on how harassment isn't okay but you can still ask someone to ask better of their friend

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    PeasPeas Registered User regular
    高中正義『Masayoshi Takanaka』– 虹伝説 『The Rainbow Goblins』[1981] 1:08:30
    https://youtu.be/MzYD56hKF-8

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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    I have no idea what cancelling is, or why it is different from what people were doing before. Seems like a novel term that probably already had a perfectly good word to describe its concept.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    DirtyboyDirtyboy Registered User regular
    Toss a Coin to Your Witcher (metal cover by Leo Moracchioli)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_50m0Vm5VvQ

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    PeenPeen Registered User regular
    Hey how about swords, they sure are long and pointy huh?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nQ8i1IZy6s

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    JedocJedoc In the scuppers with the staggers and jagsRegistered User regular
    Paladin wrote: »
    I have no idea what cancelling is, or why it is different from what people were doing before. Seems like a novel term that probably already had a perfectly good word to describe its concept.

    I feel like Jon Ronson needs to write a sequel to So You've Been Publicly Shamed, because I feel like the meta has shifted a couple of times since the original publication date of (checks notes) 2015.

    Good god.

    GDdCWMm.jpg
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    WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    How about something nice and uncontroversial like, uhm, history?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnBxZaRMWXM

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    MagellMagell Detroit Machine Guns Fort MyersRegistered User regular
    I said it sucks that lines are being crossed in the process of the necessary and fair feedback, and in a prior post I called it genuinely unfortunate

    Please don't use this as a smokescreen to deflect the very real hurt that people you are literally engaging with first hand are expressing

    Was the targeting of her friends "necessary and fair feedback" would you say?

    I think we should all analyze our friendships when someone we're close to says some wack shit, and sometimes that requires someone with an outside perspective

    I think I've thoroughly covered my beliefs on how harassment isn't okay but you can still ask someone to ask better of their friend

    And most people who wanted contra's friends to comment on what she said didn't want them to stop being friends with her. They wanted people close to contra to point out to her she said some things that were offensive to trans and nb people. And as we saw from her first reaction to people critiquing her she didn't take that feedback well, maybe if her friends pointed it out to her she would actually accept that critique.

This discussion has been closed.