[Formula One & motorsport] Australia '86: Prost vs Mansell vs Piquet

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I am really tired of F1 stewarding...
    How is that not a penalty for a false start? What a joke. He jumps the lights, stops, then goes again. It's so cut and dry it's painful.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    And that's it, this year belongs to Merc yet again.

    Not unexpected, but i can't wait for 2021 new regulations.

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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Post race
    This race is further solidifying my opinion of Leclerc as a bit of an immature dickhead. If your team tells you to pit for damage, you fucking pit. They can probably see something you can't. I'm also furious with the stewards and their seemingly very light handed approach to Leclerc in particular. He's got away with a lot regarding stewarding decisions this year and I'm genuinely starting to ask why. The turn 2 incident between Verstappen and Leclerc was clearly Leclerc's fault yet the stewards were very quick to dismiss it as "no further action". As Max pointed out, he's experienced enough to know how a car behaves in that situation. In the end it wrecked Verstappen's car and put him out of the race. The end plate damage was clearly a hazard - why on earth did the stewards not immediately wave the black and orange flag at him? This is one I've been annoyed with the stewards over for quite some time - if they ever use that flag, it's 2-3 laps of 'thinking time' before they bother to use it! What's the bloody point?! It's an easy one to see and should be almost as fast as a yellow flag. Instead, it flew off at high speed and we came dangerously close to it causing a serious injury! It hit Hamilton's car with enough force to shear off the wing mirror and caused heavy damage to Norris' brake ducts which ruined his race. So by this point he's caused damage to 3 cars, causing one of them to retire and seriously damaging the race of another. His wing mirror flies off later for good measure.

    I hope there's a significant penalty for this one, given the risk involved to other drivers and stewards. Personally I'd consider right up to disqualification (which would be extreme of course, not really expecting it) but given the pattern with Leclerc, it'll likely be as insignificant as they can get away with.

    As for the rest, Vettel jumped the start but I'm not hugely bothered by it since it cost him in the end. Not sure what the exact rule around it is though. Bottas had a good start, Sainz had a great start and Hamilton had an average start. As for Hamilton in general, I have literally no idea what the Merc strategists are doing with him anymore. Left him out ages on the softs, matching the expected time for a 1 stop and costing him literally seconds a lap - when you're going to put him on a two stop anyway? Why bother staying out that long then? Sure it allows him to go longer on stint 2 and get fresher tyres at the end (which he wasn't able to make use of, Ferrari's straight line was just a bit too strong here), but why not just try an undercut, get track position and build a gap since Merc reckon their pace and tyre deg is better anyway? Traffic? Well it's not like they avoided traffic with their actual plan anyway? Likewise Hamilton had nothing to lose (4th place was way back) so why not just go for the one stop? I'm sure Merc probably thought of a lot of this, and have better knowledge about deg etc than I do, but in the end their strategy didn't really look that great.

    That said, it was a bit of a sloppy weekend for Hamilton anyway. Qualifying 4th meant he couldn't take advantage of Vettel's poor start and a better start might have made things much smoother.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    penalty is already known, 15 seconds + 2 penalty points

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Yeah, just read that. Still seems awfully light to me, given the danger.
    Technically only 10s for the debris, only 5s for the collision with Verstappen (which they wanted to ignore at first). As Verstappen put it, what does he have to do to get a penalty during the race?. In the end it only cost him one position and two penalty points. Ferrari also got fined but that's essentially meaningless.

  • TeeManTeeMan BrainSpoon Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    If that first lap Turn 2 incident between Verstappen and Leclerc was a 'racing incident', that's surely a metaphysical assessment. "In a way, aren't all races incidental??"

    Leclerc was given many car widths worth of room on the inside of the corner, but washed out wide with too much speed when he lost front aero. It's not Verstappen's responsibly to anticipate that and drive himself off the road to avoid an incident! Compounded with the disregard of his safety and those of his colleagues by wilfully driving with a damaged, disintegrating car... I envoke the Glorious Edict and proclaim him to be a silly goose

    Also the lunge up the inside of Norris by Albon was about a car length too savage. Not to my tastes

    Edit
    Ahh ok so he was eventually penalised, but I stand by my character assessment

    TeeMan on
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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    I couldn't stay up last night, so I was going to watch the replay today but god damn ESPN don't have the stream listed. They have the hour long pre-race and the 35 minute on the grid segment up for replay streaming, but not the actual race.

    I fully expect it to never show up so I have to watch a stupidly edited replay they broadcast in 10 hours

  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Bottas interviewed by Lee McKenzie on C4: "Sorry, I'm in a hurry - I need a beer." But then answered her question at length anyway. Top man :lol:

    Jazz on
    TeeMan
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I feel like Ferrari's Machiavellian internal politics has ruined Charles. He really was a nice guy before he joined that team. In F2 and at Sauber he was always respectful and clean. The political pressure at Ferrari and the cooked up dramas with his teammate (also caused by internal Ferrari politics) has started to darken his personality some. He doesn't really trust the team, they might not fully trust him, and it shows.

    I wouldn't be shocked if he leaves Ferrari at some point and goes to a more harmonious team. He's got the talent to drive at nearly any team he wants.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • TeeManTeeMan BrainSpoon Registered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    Bottas interviewed by Lee McKenzie on C4: "Sorry, I'm in a hurry - I need a beer." But then answered her question at length anyway. Top man :lol:

    While we don't get a "Get in there, Lewis!" this race, I always enjoy Bottas's really gruff "YES!!" when he crosses the finish line first. You can practically feel his endorphins through the radio

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    Jazz
  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    edited October 2019
    TeeMan wrote: »
    Jazz wrote: »
    Bottas interviewed by Lee McKenzie on C4: "Sorry, I'm in a hurry - I need a beer." But then answered her question at length anyway. Top man :lol:

    While we don't get a "Get in there, Lewis!" this race, I always enjoy Bottas's really gruff "YES!!" when he crosses the finish line first. You can practically feel his endorphins through the radio

    Yeah, this one meant a lot to him. And so it should, he took this one entirely on merit (leaving aside questionable team strategy for at least one other challenger, meaning Hamilton). He's never been quite Kimi-level when it comes to being an archetypal Finn, but he's still often pretty reserved compared to many of the others; that reserve went completely out of the window after the win today. Genuine thrill and excitement in his "YES!!!", and promptly poured as much champagne down his neck as he possibly could on the podium. I was really, really happy for him, he totally deserved this one.

    Jazz on
    Aridhol
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    I was (and am always) impressed he didn’t smash into Vettel’s gearbox. It is not easy making that reaction even in a go kart.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
    Jazz
  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    I am somewhat getting fed up with Leclerc.

    Other than that it was a great race.
    I do hate that Verstappen gets the short end of the stick so often lately. I really hope Red Bull can challenge for the title next season and make it a true 3way.

    AridholHades
  • JasconiusJasconius sword criminal mad onlineRegistered User regular
    one of the most disappointing races ive ever seen

    in any case, if the F1 grid were more competitive, I don't think we would see as much yolo bumper cars as we do at the front of the grid. it feels like every other race, a Merc, Ferrari, or RB is coming into the pits on Lap 2... but I believe this is a result of the fact that they are basically locked into their constructors points

    if these races actually mattered you wouldn't see some of this horseshit

    think I'm done with this season, and probably the next

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    That's quite a reaction to what has been a seriously interesting season post France, with quite a few great races. Can't please everyone I guess.

    (P.S. the reason it's become bumper cars is because fans screamed "let them race", and now the FIA is doing just that. And we'll continue this way until "let them race" causes a major accident and it will be hauled in again).

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    This Renault brake bias controversy is great, and I hope we get a good technical breakdown of it. Shit like this -cheating- is actually one of my favorite parts of racing.

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  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    https://jalopnik.com/f1-strikes-preliminary-deal-to-hold-2021-race-at-miami-1839071419

    Maybe in a few years I might not have to fly out to Texas to go to an F1 race. It would still be an hours drive or so though.

  • CormacCormac Registered User regular
    https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-disqualified-japanese-brakes-suzuka/4585059/

    It looks like Racing Points protest was found to be valid. Interesting though that the system:
    However, despite being clear that the system was in line with the technical rules, the stewards felt that the device was an illegal driver aid.

    They added: “The brake balance adjustment system in question acts as a driver aid, by saving the driver from having to make a number of adjustments during a lap.

    “The Stewards note that there is a clear distinction between this system and one which provides actual feedback control, which could be a substitute for driver skills or reflexes. Nevertheless, it is still an aid and, therefore, contravenes Article 27.1 FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.”

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  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    In essence the system Racing Point accused them of having doesn't exist. But RP reporting it did cause the FIA to find something else against the sporting regs. I think that's a really important point.

    Also interesting is how the FIA words it. Clearly trying to distance the system from something akin to TC or ABS. Also the system is legal under the technical regs, but illegal under the sporting regs as a driver aid. Which is one of those F1 politics/legaleeze things that makes you roll your eyes.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    In essence the system Racing Point accused them of having doesn't exist. But RP reporting it did cause the FIA to find something else against the sporting regs. I think that's a really important point.

    Also interesting is how the FIA words it. Clearly trying to distance the system from something akin to TC or ABS. Also the system is legal under the technical regs, but illegal under the sporting regs as a driver aid. Which is one of those F1 politics/legaleeze things that makes you roll your eyes.

    It sounds like the difference is that the brake bias was being set based on location on the track instead of a direct response to conditions. It's a fine line, but if they let this then it might be opening a pandora box. Or it could be a good thing, but the FIA are scared of change. Maybe a little of both?

  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    It could also be that they had some system that reverted the brake bias settings after a certain distance or time? E.g. the driver changes the brake bias using a button but then after a preset distance/time it cycles back to the previous setting.

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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    I'm going to lean into Renault possibly getting away lightly with this one. Take it with a grain of salt (as I haven't really looked into the technical details), but Renault already look like they're on the verge of pulling out and a second major cheating scandal would almost certainly have pushed them over the line (again). It's why I reckon they've only got DSQ'ed from one race despite the system being in place longer.

    Again though, that's all a bit conspiracy theory, but I could see it.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Veevee wrote: »
    GnomeTank wrote: »
    In essence the system Racing Point accused them of having doesn't exist. But RP reporting it did cause the FIA to find something else against the sporting regs. I think that's a really important point.

    Also interesting is how the FIA words it. Clearly trying to distance the system from something akin to TC or ABS. Also the system is legal under the technical regs, but illegal under the sporting regs as a driver aid. Which is one of those F1 politics/legaleeze things that makes you roll your eyes.

    It sounds like the difference is that the brake bias was being set based on location on the track instead of a direct response to conditions. It's a fine line, but if they let this then it might be opening a pandora box. Or it could be a good thing, but the FIA are scared of change. Maybe a little of both?

    I'm not really trying to defend it, just pointing out that the FIA's wording was very specific. Could be the system really was mostly innocuous or as @altid says the FIA may be cooking the books to not push a team over the edge to leave the sport. Especially given that Renault is not having a good run of it right now.

    Related, the F1 and motor sports division were talked about on Renault's earnings call yesterday. The interim CEO is embarking on a "deep review" of the entire business after the old CEO was convicted of corruption. When an investor asked about the F1 team and motor sport he said they had no specific plans around those divisions but all areas of the business would be reviewed. So the door for Renault to leave the sport is certainly ajar.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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    altid
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Quali
    Could only half watch it but damn, that crash was bad. Was seriously worried when they played the heavy breathing. Don't do that race director, we don't need to hear it until much later when everyone has been confirmed to be safe. The actual accident would have been mostly awkward with a large degree of damage to the side of the car - if it wasn't for the sudden stop on the edge of the crash barrier. How does something like that even get approved?

    Hearing a lot of questions about the subsequent yellow flag. Verstappen set purple in that sector - and he was behind Vettel, who lifted for the yellow flag (as seen on his dashboard apparently - not to mention the physical flags). If he set purple under double waved yellows it has to be a grid drop. Safety flags are there for a reason, you absolutely do not get to ignore them.

  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    Quali:
    For the avoidance of doubt, Bottas was taken to get checked out at the medical centre after the crash, but they say he's okay.

  • VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Jazz wrote: »
    Quali:
    For the avoidance of doubt, Bottas was taken to get checked out at the medical centre after the crash, but they say he's okay.
    My gut reaction to Bottas' heavy breathing was that he was incredibly upset with himself. That sounded like trying to stop being very angry breathing to me.

    Dizzy DDrovek
  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    I haven't seen it yet, still on delayed viewing over here because of the UK TV broadcast rights shenanigans.

    Just reporting what I saw on the BBC News site.

  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Verstappen had a slow last mini sector where the yellow flag was waved but still had a purple final full sector, which is nuts.

    I’m pretty sure he was only given a single yellow and still lifted a bit at least. But then he was all full Max braggadocio in the after quali press conference, so who knows.

    My gut says they disqualify that lap time and subtract a couple points on his license but he retains pole with the first lap. At least that’s what would happen if it was Vettel or Hamilton being called to talk to the stewards.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Verstappen had a slow last mini sector where the yellow flag was waved but still had a purple final full sector, which is nuts.

    I’m pretty sure he was only given a single yellow and still lifted a bit at least. But then he was all full Max braggadocio in the after quali press conference, so who knows.

    My gut says they disqualify that lap time and subtract a couple points on his license but he retains pole with the first lap. At least that’s what would happen if it was Vettel or Hamilton being called to talk to the stewards.
    Sounds a touch like they were going to let him away with it, right up until he said he didn't lift. I'm very much 'no excuses' on this one. There was a flag waved, you could see the crashed car on the outside of the corner and the guy in front of you had enough time to figure all of this out and lift off. There's no good reason not to lift off at that point. Double waved yellows mean "slow down and be prepared to stop". You should absolutely not set purple sectors under double waved yellow. There was something similar heavily fudged earlier in the season with flags ("oh they weren't told about it yet, so it didn't count") and it's an area the stewards should not give leeway on.

    Precadent for this is lap deletion and a three place grid drop and two penalty points for what it's worth.
    http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/139040?source=latest

    Edit: Hearing it's confirmed, he got a penalty. 3 place drop + 2 points.

    altid on
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  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Yeah he was an idiot twice.

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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    Arrggggg....
    *in his best William Shatner voice* Valterrrrriiiiiiiiiii!!!! All I needed you to do was qualify and finish where you should. The title goes to Austin, where I'll be, and could have seen my favorite F1 driver of all time win his sixth title. All you had to do was not crash and finish where the Merc should finish. You had one job!

    Seriously though I'm glad he's okay, that was a nasty shunt. Hopefully he has a good fight back tomorrow so my long shot dream of the title going to Austin can be a reality.

    Verstappen got exactly what he deserved. Proved again he's still incredibly immature. It's one thing not to have respect for your opponents capabilities relative to your own. It's another to not have respect for their lives and then to make a big joke of it afterward. I love swag and a touch of arrogance in F1 drivers. I just can't get behind Max's style of aggression that seems to cross the line to dangerous too often.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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  • DrovekDrovek Registered User regular
    Can't watch the full Qualy replay on F1TV for some odd reason, so I only managed to catch the highlight reel.
    That was quite a hit from Bottas, nice that he's OK.

    Also wow at the whole not-slowing-down shenanigans.

    Let's see what the race brings tomorrow, but overall I don't expect much from it. Horrible track overall.

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  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    It is disturbing that the stewards were seemingly trying to handwave it away without investigation before Verstappen's press conference. It really did seem like they were looking for a way to not give a penalty, which is entirely the wrong mindset when it comes to safety regulations.

    The daft part about it is that if he'd lifted, he would have kept pole with his previous time.

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  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    Drovek wrote: »
    Can't watch the full Qualy replay on F1TV for some odd reason, so I only managed to catch the highlight reel.
    That was quite a hit from Bottas, nice that he's OK.

    Also wow at the whole not-slowing-down shenanigans.

    Let's see what the race brings tomorrow, but overall I don't expect much from it. Horrible track overall.

    The track used to be so much better. Maybe not a classic, but the revamp just butchered it.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Mid race
    Looks like another awful strategy for Hamilton. Too early rather than the traditional too late this time though. A slim chance it works out but I really doubt it.

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    Well, I could be proven wrong. Still very sceptical about the tyres holding out

  • altidaltid Registered User regular
    And I have been proven entirely wrong on strategy! How the hell did those tyres last?!

    Aridholjimb213
  • JazzJazz Fuck cancer. Un-UKRegistered User regular
    altid wrote: »
    Well, I could be proven wrong. Still very sceptical about the tyres holding out
    Happy to be wrong? :wink:

    altid
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited October 2019
    altid wrote: »
    Well, I could be proven wrong. Still very sceptical about the tyres holding out

    You sir were wrong!
    Lewis puts in another champions drive. 48 laps he had on those tires, with Vettel and Bottas chasing him down with significantly fresher rubber. Interesting stat at the end there, this is the 55th time Vettel and Hamilton have finished 1-2 together. That's pretty incredible. His car also had non-insignificant damage to the floor from the earlier contact with Verstappen.

    All in all the dream GP for me. Lewis wins and the title goes on to Austin where Lewis is almost sure to take it. I'll be watching from turn 12!

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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