[Legends of Runeterra]: Procure a Precious Poro of Palette Plumage for Pride

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. Registered User regular
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    I really like the game. And RIOT deserves credit for taking the RNG out of purchases (even if they are - likely - more expensive).

    As for the rules; I played through all the tutorials and haven't made a priority mistake in PvP yet (well maybe once or twice). I hope they don't change how this works because there is a surprising amount of strategy here that I didn't expect. About the only thing I would agree on is that it needs to be made VERY clear how the priority system works in case someone doesn't go through all the tutorials and gets the experience.

    . . .but a ruleset is something that can be easily added to the game.

    As for a beta, I mean other DCG's/Early Access titles are getting away with it, why not RIOT?

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  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    Hearthstone purposefully marketed itself as a simplified card game. It wasn't trying to emulate the mechanical complexity of Magic.

    LoR is.

    If you put Magic and Hearthstone on a spectrum, I think LoR is going to appeal to people further on the Magic side of the spectrum. Maybe that's wrong, just my opinion.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    To me, I think this stuff should be hammered out before the beta. They are taking real actual money and there are no resets so what does beta even mean at some point? "We're putting out a janky product but please give us your money while you test it?" Nope. Get it right.

    I just don't think the rules of the card game should be that hard. You should provide a rules document like you would get in a physical product telling me the rules so if I'm unclear I can become clear. I think my biggest problem is it just seems lazy. Like they didn't have enough playtesting with people who were seeing the game for the first time. People are going to judge your product based on what you put out right now, and they may not come back when it's no longer a beta, whatever difference that makes. You don't have to print the exact rules for a MOBA or shooter, but card games live and die on these tiny mechanical interactions.

    That's been like every open beta ever. From magic, hearth stone, and heroes of the storm. Open beta with purchases and no more resets.

    As for the game, played some of the tutorials to open up the different play options. I'm really confused by the play order of things right now.

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  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    edited January 25
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    To me, I think this stuff should be hammered out before the beta. They are taking real actual money and there are no resets so what does beta even mean at some point? "We're putting out a janky product but please give us your money while you test it?" Nope. Get it right.

    I just don't think the rules of the card game should be that hard. You should provide a rules document like you would get in a physical product telling me the rules so if I'm unclear I can become clear. I think my biggest problem is it just seems lazy. Like they didn't have enough playtesting with people who were seeing the game for the first time. People are going to judge your product based on what you put out right now, and they may not come back when it's no longer a beta, whatever difference that makes. You don't have to print the exact rules for a MOBA or shooter, but card games live and die on these tiny mechanical interactions.

    All-in-all, it seems like people like the actual gameplay and mechanics and are simply confused by the presentation and minutiae. To me, that lines up perfectly with what a beta is supposed to be.

    I don't think it's immoral to offer real-world money transactions at this point, as long as it's evident that what you're paying for might be altered before the base game is officially released. Pretty much every multi-player game has a beta period where the in-game store is live. I don't think it's manipulative.

    Edit: I'm gonna steal that Mobalytics round flowchart and put it in the OP. Might help reduce confusion.

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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    To me, I think this stuff should be hammered out before the beta. They are taking real actual money and there are no resets so what does beta even mean at some point? "We're putting out a janky product but please give us your money while you test it?" Nope. Get it right.

    I just don't think the rules of the card game should be that hard. You should provide a rules document like you would get in a physical product telling me the rules so if I'm unclear I can become clear. I think my biggest problem is it just seems lazy. Like they didn't have enough playtesting with people who were seeing the game for the first time. People are going to judge your product based on what you put out right now, and they may not come back when it's no longer a beta, whatever difference that makes. You don't have to print the exact rules for a MOBA or shooter, but card games live and die on these tiny mechanical interactions.

    That's been like every open beta ever. From magic, hearth stone, and heroes of the storm. Open beta with purchases and no more resets.

    As for the game, played some of the tutorials to open up the different play options. I'm really confused by the play order of things right now.

    If you finished all the tutorials I would suggest picking one of the starter decks, declaring for one of it's regions, and then just grinding out region experience in Ranked or Normal mode.

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • SpawnbrokerSpawnbroker Registered User regular
    I've been playing this a lot. I think the most confusing thing about the combat system is that there are 3 different spell speeds. And combat buffs caused by units seem to be Burst, but effects that deal damage to units seem to be Fast? It's still not clear to me.

    That being said, I really like the core of the game here. I built an elusive aggro deck that has been wrecking the lower levels of the ladder.

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    Hearthstone purposefully marketed itself as a simplified card game. It wasn't trying to emulate the mechanical complexity of Magic.

    LoR is.

    If you put Magic and Hearthstone on a spectrum, I think LoR is going to appeal to people further on the Magic side of the spectrum. Maybe that's wrong, just my opinion.

    It is definitely between the two, and this is the can of worms you open up when you are allowing more interaction (which is a good thing). Hearthstone could get away with a lot of shit because there's zero interaction with your opponent when it's not your turn.

    I just feel like making sure the rules are crystal clear is pretty essential to something like this and this stuff is rampant throughout the UI too. There is no autocomplete imported deck option to spend down wildcards and gems to build it. I also feel like it's really difficult to see how many you need. It just says "max" and the number is red in the decklist, so I could have 0, 1, 2 or whatever, but I don't know how many to build for this. There's also no good way to see the total that you have and need on that page so I can determine what I need to save up to build the deck. The game is just rife with "here are things" but it's very bad at explaining how you get from here to there, whether that's the priority system, the collection and deck system, or whatever else.

    I do have a bug where no matter how many times I've read this message, I still have a notification showing I have one message to read and that's really annoying, but you'll note I haven't complained about it, because it's not fundamental to how you play the game and it's the kind of thing I expect in a beta.

    I just want to understand the game and play it optimally but it has made it difficult, which I guess is both a good and bad problem to have. I imagine you'd rather be in this situation than an easy to understand game that's totally uninteresting, but I feel like it's not unreasonable to want to have my cake and eat it to in this situation.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

    Hearthstone deliberately stripped out a TON of interactions by making the game entirely One Turn and the Other Turn. (I don't know if they've changed anything about that since release, but that's how it launched) This game has a much more complex flow.

    Really, after having dicked around with it for a few hours today, it's a UX problem, of which there are many. They do a bad job of conveying to the player what phase of the turn progression you are on and what will happen should you pass or not pass or whatever. The UI needs to make it a lot more clear exactly what is going to happen next in terms of phases and reactions and all that.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I would say another thing the game needs is some serious polish and review on the tutorial/introduction segment.

    They start you off with some good basics but there's issues like you do something and then it's all <swoosh graphics!> and then something else is suddenly happening and there's no prompt for "Ok, we are moving on to another lesson" vs "Go back and do it again but we aren't gonna actually tell you that's what is happening". And then at the end it just kinda dumps you into a menu UI that is pretty unintuitive and full of currencies and objects and things that aren't immediately obvious. Even the tutorial menu itself is completely unorganized with no sense of which one you should do first.

    And then you get rewards and I open them but I can't inspect them, they just go ... somewhere? And I got wildcards but I have no idea what they do. And I unlocked a chest but I can't actually touch the chest or something?

    Hell, even stuff as simple as inspecting a card, which they tell you is a click but is actually a right click and then some left clicks.

  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 25
    Here is another problem with the ambiguity. Tryndamere's level up clause. Does that work with the dudes that have you sacrifice another creature? If the templating were a little more consistent I'd be more willing to risk it, but I'm not going to do that in the middle of an actual game if the outcome still matters.

    I played a whole ai game and sandbagged it until I got the combo and yes, you can do that. But in Magic, if you haven't paid the cost, you can't do the thing!

    ChaosHat on
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Here is another problem with the ambiguity. Tryndamere's level up clause. Does that work with the dudes that have you sacrifice another creature? If the templating were a little more consistent I'd be more willing to risk it, but I'm not going to do that in the middle of an actual game if the outcome still matters.

    I played a whole ai game and sandbagged it until I got the combo and yes, you can do that. But in Magic, if you haven't paid the cost, you can't do the thing!

    It would work the same in Magic: Tryndamere's ability would be a replacement effect for dying, which wouldn't affect paying the cost of an ability by sacrificing him.

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  • credeikicredeiki Registered User regular
    hm I played through all the tutorial and the only thing I found unexpected is that when Tryndamere dies to a quick attack, he levels up and then can do his block attack.

    I thought the tutorials were kind of slow, but the devs must realize that LoL has the WORST new player experience and decided to try to make everything a lot more clear, and I think they actually did a very good job

    I'm pretty bad at deck building and find it frustrating when I haven't gotten a lot of cards yet, so for now I'm just playing normals with the starter decks and enjoying collecting cards and becoming more familiar with the cards and mechanics as I play. This game seems promising! Hearthstone I played for a few months here and there but eventually found it frustrating to be f2p and not own any cards; this game maybe I'll be able to avoid that.

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  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    If the dev team can actually deliver on their promises of making sure that having a complete card collection is both

    a) attainable without having to pay money
    and
    b) not attainable until late in each expansion's lifetime

    that's enough to endear me to them. I am skeptical about that though because that seems an impossible balance to strike.

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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

    Hearthstone deliberately stripped out a TON of interactions by making the game entirely One Turn and the Other Turn. (I don't know if they've changed anything about that since release, but that's how it launched) This game has a much more complex flow.

    Really, after having dicked around with it for a few hours today, it's a UX problem, of which there are many. They do a bad job of conveying to the player what phase of the turn progression you are on and what will happen should you pass or not pass or whatever. The UI needs to make it a lot more clear exactly what is going to happen next in terms of phases and reactions and all that.

    There is no "phase progression" so to speak. A round keeps going until both players have passed their turn. The only part of a round a person needs to be mindful of is the combat phase where they are locked out of certain cards (playing units and slow spells). Other than that a round is just you and the other player passing priority until either: you're all out of mana or both players pass in succession.

    All of which is actually spelled out in the tutorial.

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  • ChaosHatChaosHat Trick of the lightRegistered User regular
    edited January 26
    admanb wrote: »
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Here is another problem with the ambiguity. Tryndamere's level up clause. Does that work with the dudes that have you sacrifice another creature? If the templating were a little more consistent I'd be more willing to risk it, but I'm not going to do that in the middle of an actual game if the outcome still matters.

    I played a whole ai game and sandbagged it until I got the combo and yes, you can do that. But in Magic, if you haven't paid the cost, you can't do the thing!

    It would work the same in Magic: Tryndamere's ability would be a replacement effect for dying, which wouldn't affect paying the cost of an ability by sacrificing him.

    Nevermind I'm dumb then.

    ChaosHat on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

    Hearthstone deliberately stripped out a TON of interactions by making the game entirely One Turn and the Other Turn. (I don't know if they've changed anything about that since release, but that's how it launched) This game has a much more complex flow.

    Really, after having dicked around with it for a few hours today, it's a UX problem, of which there are many. They do a bad job of conveying to the player what phase of the turn progression you are on and what will happen should you pass or not pass or whatever. The UI needs to make it a lot more clear exactly what is going to happen next in terms of phases and reactions and all that.

    There is no "phase progression" so to speak. A round keeps going until both players have passed their turn. The only part of a round a person needs to be mindful of is the combat phase where they are locked out of certain cards (playing units and slow spells). Other than that a round is just you and the other player passing priority until either: you're all out of mana or both players pass in succession.

    All of which is actually spelled out in the tutorial.

    There's very clearly a progression of phases. There's an entire combat phase with multiple steps where passing means something different then in the normal game and a round system where passing at certain points means something different then other points depending on what your opponent has done. The UI does a poor job of making it clear what is going to happen when you push the same button. There's not even a "Hey, you didn't attack" prompt or anything. (in general the UI does not I think do a good enough job of highlighting who has the attack initiative and whether it's been used given how important it is)

  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    ED! wrote: »
    There is no "phase progression" so to speak. A round keeps going until both players have passed their turn. The only part of a round a person needs to be mindful of is the combat phase where they are locked out of certain cards (playing units and slow spells). Other than that a round is just you and the other player passing priority until either: you're all out of mana or both players pass in succession.

    All of which is actually spelled out in the tutorial.

    There's very clearly a progression of phases. There's an entire combat phase with multiple steps where passing means something different then in the normal game and a round system where passing at certain points means something different then other points depending on what your opponent has done. The UI does a poor job of making it clear what is going to happen when you push the same button. There's not even a "Hey, you didn't attack" prompt or anything. (in general the UI does not I think do a good enough job of highlighting who has the attack initiative and whether it's been used given how important it is)

    Turn priority is no different in combat than it is out of it: you declare blockers and attackers and are able to cast spells if any are on the stack. You can't "pass" in combat: you either decide to attack and have finished your preparations or you have skipped blocking. Either way you've passed the same priority as in normal situations.

    And the UI tells you exactly who has attack priority: it's the person who goes first who also has an attack icon.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    edited January 26
    Who cares about the rules, the real menace is running into a turn 1 Teemo when drafting.

    Drew my removal spell the turn I got buried under the 64 mushrooms in my deck (round 7).

    e: fuck me, another turn one Teemo in the very next game. Is this some kind of passive bonus?

    Surfpossum on
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  • EriktheVikingGamerEriktheVikingGamer Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Who cares about the rules, the real menace is running into a turn 1 Teemo when drafting.

    Drew my removal spell the turn I got buried under the 64 mushrooms in my deck (round 7).

    e: fuck me, another turn one Teemo in the very next game. Is this some kind of passive bonus?

    It's the Teemo bonus carried over from LoL. :)

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft

  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    edited January 26
    RickRude wrote: »
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft
    One of the tutorials (maybe the last one?) gives you a precious token.

    I haven't done all of them because I accidentally started at the last one after the first few, so maybe there are more tokens in there somewhere.

    [edited for posterity]

    Surfpossum on
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  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    I am digging the game so far. Lots of really cool interactions. My fav right now is braum with buff if damaged for that turn 4 goodness. If I can get one of or two of the top heroes in the deck get +1 it gets out of hand fast.

  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft
    One of the tutorials (maybe the last one?) gives you a precious token.

    I haven't done all of them because I accidentally started at the last one after the first few, so maybe there are more tokens in there somewhere.

    Hmmm I did all the tutorials and even the ones after you're dumped into the menu. Maybe i'll check.

    What about gems? ALl the quests I see are for xp

  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft
    One of the tutorials (maybe the last one?) gives you a precious token.

    I haven't done all of them because I accidentally started at the last one after the first few, so maybe there are more tokens in there somewhere.

    Hmmm I did all the tutorials and even the ones after you're dumped into the menu. Maybe i'll check.

    What about gems? ALl the quests I see are for xp
    Apparently you're limited to three drafts a week so I imagine getting the currency is gonna be a slog.


    Which is a real shame, because I'm already seeing stuff in ranked that is just way beyond my current pool's ability to deal with.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    I'm liking things about the game, having fun enough against the AI, but it's really just mostly making me want to play MTG: Arena. Have currency for drafts, and multiple accounts so it's easy to do daily's for draft moneys. I'm so far removed from that game though right now I'd be lost.

    Really enjoy the art style and the league heroe's, might jump into vs real opponents and see how it plays. Kind of want to spend cards and make a teemo deck, he seems fun and annoying lol.

  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    Favorite moment so far: was attacking an opponent for 7 and 8 when they were at 13 with nothing on the board and one card in hand, they played a burst spell to draw a card and drew and played the catalyst gem that gains them 3 life, leaving them at 1 after the attack.

    I used the Heimer math emote and they responded back with the same emote.



    Then I killed them.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    edited January 26
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft
    One of the tutorials (maybe the last one?) gives you a precious token.

    I haven't done all of them because I accidentally started at the last one after the first few, so maybe there are more tokens in there somewhere.

    I did all of the tutorials and I don't have a precious token :(

    *edit* just got enough xp for the silver chest in the rewards section and got one

    RickRude on
  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    I love JINX. You don't have to BM. . .she does it for you: "Buh bye."

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    RickRude wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft
    One of the tutorials (maybe the last one?) gives you a precious token.

    I haven't done all of them because I accidentally started at the last one after the first few, so maybe there are more tokens in there somewhere.

    I did all of the tutorials and I don't have a precious token :(
    Huh, then I dunno where I got mine from. Maybe a reward from pledging to a thing on the rewards page? I got it after completing a tutorial, at any rate.

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  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    You get a token from one of the prologue chests, if your just doing the tutorials you probably have to do a couple AI or vs matches to get the XP for it

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  • YiliasYilias Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

    Hearthstone deliberately stripped out a TON of interactions by making the game entirely One Turn and the Other Turn. (I don't know if they've changed anything about that since release, but that's how it launched) This game has a much more complex flow.

    Really, after having dicked around with it for a few hours today, it's a UX problem, of which there are many. They do a bad job of conveying to the player what phase of the turn progression you are on and what will happen should you pass or not pass or whatever. The UI needs to make it a lot more clear exactly what is going to happen next in terms of phases and reactions and all that.

    Arena's little phase icons would be very helpful.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    RickRude wrote: »
    How do I get in game currency to do drafts? Seems like a grind compared to mtg:arena. Actually this has been giving me the itch to play that again. It was easy to do a few quests and pay for a draft
    One of the tutorials (maybe the last one?) gives you a precious token.

    I haven't done all of them because I accidentally started at the last one after the first few, so maybe there are more tokens in there somewhere.

    I did all of the tutorials and I don't have a precious token :(
    Huh, then I dunno where I got mine from. Maybe a reward from pledging to a thing on the rewards page? I got it after completing a tutorial, at any rate.
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    You get a token from one of the prologue chests, if your just doing the tutorials you probably have to do a couple AI or vs matches to get the XP for it

    Edited my post but ya I got one from a silver chest in the prologue reward section. Played all the tutorials and quite a few ai matches before I got there, but wasn't too bad.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    I won with a temo deck in draft. That rng love. 10 dmg on a card to finish it out when I was at 3 health.

  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    You get a token from one of the prologue chests, if your just doing the tutorials you probably have to do a couple AI or vs matches to get the XP for it

    I definitely got my token from doing the prologue. . .it just popped up. Also the description of the Expedition mode sounds amazing, a mix between Hearthstones adventure mode and MTGA. Speaking of descriptions I also recommend the LoR section of Mobalytics. Hopefully RIOT sees this and adds an in-game tutorial area like this which just flat out explains the game mechanics (which is something I don't think I've seen too many DCG's do, instead relying on short helper text for keywords).

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  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Expeditions are definitely the coolest part of the game so far, though the limits on them and high costs will make the standard draft RNG a looooot more frustrating. They mitigate that by having you only wash out if you lose two in a row (rather than two total) and giving you two runs per buy-in, but could still be rough.

    Surfpossum
  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

    Hearthstone deliberately stripped out a TON of interactions by making the game entirely One Turn and the Other Turn. (I don't know if they've changed anything about that since release, but that's how it launched) This game has a much more complex flow.

    Really, after having dicked around with it for a few hours today, it's a UX problem, of which there are many. They do a bad job of conveying to the player what phase of the turn progression you are on and what will happen should you pass or not pass or whatever. The UI needs to make it a lot more clear exactly what is going to happen next in terms of phases and reactions and all that.

    Arena's little phase icons would be very helpful.

    Be6BsEU.jpg?1

    It still took Arena a couple of iterations to get the UI that good, and it still has issues (namely I can't stop at the beginning of my turn after untapping but before drawing to use Castle Locthwain to draw, without stepping through the entire Upkeep phase slowly).

    So, hopefully the UI will get fixed here too, and I'm willing to give this game more leeway than Arena in this area considering the newness of this game.

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  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    Played through an expidition. Went 0-2 in trial one. Then 7-2(?) in trial 2. Got 3500 gems and some cards.

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  • PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    If I remember correctly, there was mention that you can keep doing Expeditions past the first three each week, the rewards are just lessened. (Which, y’know... fair, since you get a *lot* of XP from them.) I think the entry fee goes down to match as well? Don’t know if that made it in from the preview weekends.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yilias wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hearthstone's success has very firmly demonstrated that you do not need to explain the rules to players at all

    Hearthstone deliberately stripped out a TON of interactions by making the game entirely One Turn and the Other Turn. (I don't know if they've changed anything about that since release, but that's how it launched) This game has a much more complex flow.

    Really, after having dicked around with it for a few hours today, it's a UX problem, of which there are many. They do a bad job of conveying to the player what phase of the turn progression you are on and what will happen should you pass or not pass or whatever. The UI needs to make it a lot more clear exactly what is going to happen next in terms of phases and reactions and all that.

    Arena's little phase icons would be very helpful.

    Be6BsEU.jpg?1

    Aye. Literally anything to indicate what clicking the big button on the right will do in a more obvious way.

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