[Canadian Politics] Protest or Pro-pipe?

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    edited February 8
    Edit: Should be own thread

    Aridhol on
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    Christine Blatchford passed away, 68, from lung cancer.

  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    Disco11 wrote: »

    The provincial government here is such an embarrassment. Like, it's wild that anyone thinks that anyone should take us seriously with the sort of clown-shoes idiocy these guys are demonstrating.

    Also, glad to have my health services cut, and education get gutted so these asshats can be twitter shitlords.

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »

    The provincial government here is such an embarrassment. Like, it's wild that anyone thinks that anyone should take us seriously with the sort of clown-shoes idiocy these guys are demonstrating.

    We have the RCMP investigating the UCP for separate election related crimes.

    Totally normal...

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Christine Blatchford passed away, 68, from lung cancer.

    That's a shame. I didn't always agree with her, but I respected her opinion. She was very good at her job.

  • DaimarDaimar A Million Feet Tall of Awesome Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »

    The provincial government here is such an embarrassment. Like, it's wild that anyone thinks that anyone should take us seriously with the sort of clown-shoes idiocy these guys are demonstrating.

    We have the RCMP investigating the UCP for separate election related crimes.

    Totally normal...

    Didn't that go away when they fired the independent investigator or is this something else?

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  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Daimar wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »

    The provincial government here is such an embarrassment. Like, it's wild that anyone thinks that anyone should take us seriously with the sort of clown-shoes idiocy these guys are demonstrating.

    We have the RCMP investigating the UCP for separate election related crimes.

    Totally normal...

    Didn't that go away when they fired the independent investigator or is this something else?

    https://www.660citynews.com/2020/02/11/rcmp-investigating-ucp-firing-of-elections-commissioner/

    Nope. It's nice living in a country where laws still mater for the moment.

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  • DaimarDaimar A Million Feet Tall of Awesome Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Daimar wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »

    The provincial government here is such an embarrassment. Like, it's wild that anyone thinks that anyone should take us seriously with the sort of clown-shoes idiocy these guys are demonstrating.

    We have the RCMP investigating the UCP for separate election related crimes.

    Totally normal...

    Didn't that go away when they fired the independent investigator or is this something else?

    https://www.660citynews.com/2020/02/11/rcmp-investigating-ucp-firing-of-elections-commissioner/

    Nope. It's nice living in a country where laws still mater for the moment.

    So the UCPs next move is to get rid of the RCMP in the province?

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  • DeciusDecius Registered User regular
    Daimar wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    Daimar wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »

    The provincial government here is such an embarrassment. Like, it's wild that anyone thinks that anyone should take us seriously with the sort of clown-shoes idiocy these guys are demonstrating.

    We have the RCMP investigating the UCP for separate election related crimes.

    Totally normal...

    Didn't that go away when they fired the independent investigator or is this something else?

    https://www.660citynews.com/2020/02/11/rcmp-investigating-ucp-firing-of-elections-commissioner/

    Nope. It's nice living in a country where laws still mater for the moment.

    So the UCPs next move is to get rid of the RCMP in the province?

    Hahaha I wish this was actually something sarcastic I could laugh at...

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-police-force-rcmp-kenney-fair-deal-1.5354946

    Actually Alberta did it's own police force between WWI and WWII.

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    New video from the Unistoten Camp on their youtube:



    Doesn't seem like the RCMP were too rough in this recorded instance, haven't seen any recordings of the night raid yet though where that window of a vehicle was smashed according to the blog, maybe because there aren't any due to the reporters being blocked.

    Here's their blog: https://unistoten.camp/category/blog/

    There have been a ton of other protests said to be in support of the Wet'suwet'en. Road blocks on the Island Highway in at least 3 different spots near Nanaimo, Courtenay, and Victoria, a march in Tofino, Vancouver port closed, a sitin at a bank in Nelson, a highway close to Burns Lake blocked for a few hours, the CN rail blocked in Ontario, a port in Halifax, a moment in Ottawa... And lots of different letters of support like Haida-Gwaii, Iroquois, National Farmers Union... And BC's legislature had its opening ceremonies disrupted and its fountain died red, some of whom are educated youth from our community.

    If you need citations, it a lot of links, so I could just point you to where I found most of them as I was reading this morning:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Yintah/

    Here's an article a lil vague on the details but it seems to be fair in reporting most of the facts of the timeline so far (I especially like the picture they lead with):
    https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2020/02/11/reconciliation-is-dead-and-we-will-shut-down-canada-wetsuweten-supporters-say.html?fbclid=IwAR1e-f3QwjV4FQH5Op3QLRUyEEHSg-Rl0-wowNfmlg0laCv5s7DJGqB918w

    There is even an officially sponsored petition regarding these events:
    https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-2396

    I hope reconciliation is not fully dead, that we can come back from this.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    Does any know if there is any actual connection between VIA or CN Rail and the pipeline? Or are they just a random convenient target caught in the crossfire?

    shryke on
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Does any know if there is any actual connection between VIA or CN Rail and the pipeline? Or are they just a random convenient target caught in the crossfire?

    Probably that rail is another shipper of oil, but more likely it's because it's a way of causing disruption to put pressure on the government.

    ArcticLancer
  • The Cow KingThe Cow King scuz me ur under dog arrest Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    I hope so as well but the Canadian goverment has never ever tried. After the landmark Delgamuukw case not even two days went by before the BC government and industry lobbiest doubled down on eliminating Aboriginal titles and rights

    https://thenarwhal.ca/industry-government-pushed-to-abolish-aboriginal-title-at-issue-in-wetsuweten-stand-off-docs-reveal/

    The BC government hasn't done shit except ignore and hope they just get the land title?? The Wetsuweten also gathered evidence on the gas route that it crosses over ecologically and historically important land but having to prove that the people who lived here before the colonists showed up actually lived here to the fucking colonists who don't care (and have a vested interest in dismissing them) is a pretty fucked up situation. The chiefs in addition proposed an alternate acceptable route that was ignored and there is BC law that allows destruction of ecological and historical sites (love that colonial constitution baby, historical as defined by Canadas existence as a white nation) even if approved, which they won't because the government has no interest in following its own laws because doing so requires them to acknowledged Aboriginal claims and rights.

    And on band councils, they where and are political tools to disrupt the culture and traditions of the nations they succeeded in creating a great number of crisis over the years and as you see now, as before the main complaint is "lack of democracy". Which is a pretty wild claim for its settlers to make when we literally walked and in said "we own this now prove otherwise lolololo"

    And again Canadian democracy probably wants to side with the resource industry and extraction but it's pesky laws it barely follows keep getting in the way!

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  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    John Baird has decided he will not run for Conservative leader.

    Does anyone want to be the leader? Unless the point was to just crown McKay cause it feels like he's just going to coast into it.

    Also it was amusing because I had just read a former Harper staffer editorial that went live 5 hours ago pumping up the prospects of why Baird should run.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    I wonder if at this point it's just a case of the potential candidates either being pre-crazified True Believers in Harper-style conservatism on the one hand, and conservatives with enough self-awareness to realize they don't want to manage this particular circus given its membership over the last half-dozen years on the other.

    Like, it's theoretically possible to be a Canadian federal conservative without going fullbore into the whole far-right "Cleek's Law meets hatred for even slightly diversified economies" pit, but that's where a lot of the MPs and most of the electorate are these days so I can totally see would-be leaders wanting no part of trying to run that.

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  • The Cow KingThe Cow King scuz me ur under dog arrest Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    shryke wrote: »
    Does any know if there is any actual connection between VIA or CN Rail and the pipeline? Or are they just a random convenient target caught in the crossfire?

    In the words of the protestors the rail line was built with exploited immigrant labour to increase the strength of the colony and to increase land stealing west ward, so even if not related now it is relevant to the history

    And they ain't wrong

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    John Baird has decided he will not run for Conservative leader.

    Does anyone want to be the leader? Unless the point was to just crown McKay cause it feels like he's just going to coast into it.

    Also it was amusing because I had just read a former Harper staffer editorial that went live 5 hours ago pumping up the prospects of why Baird should run.

    It's kinda funny to watch them squirm out. "Oh yeah, Trudeau and his Liberals will be super-easy to beat, barely an inconvenience, I'd totally be next PM if I become leader of the CPC... but... I... have to do laundry that day. Sorry. Maybe next time."

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    I wonder if at this point it's just a case of the potential candidates either being pre-crazified True Believers in Harper-style conservatism on the one hand, and conservatives with enough self-awareness to realize they don't want to manage this particular circus given its membership over the last half-dozen years on the other.

    Like, it's theoretically possible to be a Canadian federal conservative without going fullbore into the whole far-right "Cleek's Law meets hatred for even slightly diversified economies" pit, but that's where a lot of the MPs and most of the electorate are these days so I can totally see would-be leaders wanting no part of trying to run that.

    This is why I was hoping Charest would take over. He's a regular conservative who, I think, would have cleaned up his party and not caved to the fundies... but he came to the same realization you did, and pretty much openly said so openly in his announcement that he's not running.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Does any know if there is any actual connection between VIA or CN Rail and the pipeline? Or are they just a random convenient target caught in the crossfire?

    In the words of the protestors the rail line was built with exploited immigrant labour to increase the strength of the colony and to increase land stealing west ward, so even if not related now it is relevant to the history

    And they ain't wrong

    It seems a pretty tenuous connection to a modern passenger rail company. If there's no actual business connections here it seems like it's just a target of convenience. Easiest way to get attention. I was just curious if there was a reason beyond that.

    Interestingly it's difficult to find resources on the labour used for the railways through the Windsor-Quebec Corridor or the like. There's a lot of information about the immigrant labour brought in for the pacific railway, but not much about the stuff in the east.

  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Richy wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    John Baird has decided he will not run for Conservative leader.

    Does anyone want to be the leader? Unless the point was to just crown McKay cause it feels like he's just going to coast into it.

    Also it was amusing because I had just read a former Harper staffer editorial that went live 5 hours ago pumping up the prospects of why Baird should run.

    It's kinda funny to watch them squirm out. "Oh yeah, Trudeau and his Liberals will be super-easy to beat, barely an inconvenience, I'd totally be next PM if I become leader of the CPC... but... I... have to do laundry that day. Sorry. Maybe next time."

    The conservative tent is so big that they have to somehow satisfy the old school Tory "fiscal conservatives" that while they lean right of center on most social issues they are still ok with immigration, refugees and gay rights. Most of the conservatives of this branch are actually good for a well balanced society in my opinion if only to give contrast.

    It's the crazy MAGA'esque branch that now well represented by the Jason Kenney & Doug Ford's that are pulling things hard right with no sign of slowing down that are making it impossible to govern. The no compromise, always attack mentality just doesn't sit right with a lot of people but in the current political landscape they are put in a tough situation.

    If we had a real 2nd conservative party it would really help chill the rhetoric down I think but I could be really off base.

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  • El SkidEl Skid The frozen white northRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    I know what the train route was supposed to move today though- me :P

    My daughter loves to take the train and we had tickets to train along the Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa corridor- our trains were of course cancelled.

    So now we’re on a greyhound bus that costs more, is less comfortable and takes longer.

    *shrug* oh well. This’ll be a new experience for my daughter and we’re caught up enough on the news that we made alternate arrangements before the busses sold out. Apparently some train passengers had their head stuck in the sand and just arrived at the train terminal to find out they were completely hosed...

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    El Skid wrote: »
    Apparently some train passengers had their head stuck in the sand and just arrived at the train terminal to find out they were completely hosed...
    this does not surprise me at all.

    The West Coast Express commuter train from the burbs to downtown was cancelled today because of the protests. I don't know if these things are supposed to get the public on their side or what but all the protests in the Vancouver region have been incredibly disruptive to "normal people" as opposed to the government and I just can't see the public supporting them.

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  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    El Skid wrote: »
    Apparently some train passengers had their head stuck in the sand and just arrived at the train terminal to find out they were completely hosed...
    this does not surprise me at all.

    The West Coast Express commuter train from the burbs to downtown was cancelled today because of the protests. I don't know if these things are supposed to get the public on their side or what but all the protests in the Vancouver region have been incredibly disruptive to "normal people" as opposed to the government and I just can't see the public supporting them.

    Getting other people on their side isn't the point of these protests though.

    The point of protests like these is to get people to realize the problem even exists. It doesn't let us pretend its a smaller story than it is because they marched down a road peacefully, held a speech in a public space outside some office of prominence or influence, and then dispersed - only to have their story and grievances land on page 5 of the local rag if they are lucky.

    If you are wondering how such a protest can garner support from allies outside its minority multi-group membership, its because other protests of members of the majority have been treated in a similar fashion and realize they need to protect the Charter Rights of others to protect their own and build trust that makes Reconciliation possible. Beyond that, it is just pointing out that something as fundamental to the framework of our country as still not having a modern treaty negotiated and ratified before going through the water shed of a contested area in the aforementioned treaty which involves a constitutional process for the First Nation be acknowledged, its too important to be ignored. Just throwing more RCMP and draconian injunctions at this is not going to help reconcile the under lying crux of the matter and as demonstrated actually turns a decade long local dispute into a nation wide reminder that we're not fully committing to reconciliation that would prevent the next Residential School genocide aka using force in these matters invites an asymmetrical response from the suppressed.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    The conservative tent is so big that they have to somehow satisfy the old school Tory "fiscal conservatives" that while they lean right of center on most social issues they are still ok with immigration, refugees and gay rights. Most of the conservatives of this branch are actually good for a well balanced society in my opinion if only to give contrast.

    It's the crazy MAGA'esque branch that now well represented by the Jason Kenney & Doug Ford's that are pulling things hard right with no sign of slowing down that are making it impossible to govern. The no compromise, always attack mentality just doesn't sit right with a lot of people but in the current political landscape they are put in a tough situation.

    If we had a real 2nd conservative party it would really help chill the rhetoric down I think but I could be really off base.

    The CPC splitting would probably be the healthiest thing that could happen to it at this point, and I'm not just saying that as someone who doesn't plan on voting for them until every Conservative in the 41st and 42nd Parliaments is retired. There's been way, way too much "to be Conservative is to be Republican" in the way the party's been managed for the last couple of decades, and as you say it's gotten to the point where the party can't function unless the redcap crowd is in charge or at least happy. They aren't interested in governing, they're just interested in defeating the other guy.

    I honestly think national politics would be a lot less ridiculous if the hard core of that crowd just fucked off to the PPC already and let the conservatives who actually have policies other than "I'm against what you have" take a shot at actually suggesting something nondestructive for a change. As it stands, whoever ends up leading the CPC's going to be pushing the exact same stuff - Trudeau delenda est, oil good, immigrants bad, must obey Washington, crimecrimecrime, commissars for federal researchers, the press is the enemy, etc. As it stands, someone who isn't willing to lean hard into all of those can't lead the party.

    (I forget what it's called, but there's actually a specific term for the tendency for huge-tent movements to autoradicalize, because the bonkersmost members of the group tend to be best able to drag it in whatever direction it's going. In those terms the federal Conservatives were toast as soon as they merged with Reform, but you can see the same general pattern on, say, 4chan.)
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    El Skid wrote: »
    Apparently some train passengers had their head stuck in the sand and just arrived at the train terminal to find out they were completely hosed...
    this does not surprise me at all.

    The West Coast Express commuter train from the burbs to downtown was cancelled today because of the protests. I don't know if these things are supposed to get the public on their side or what but all the protests in the Vancouver region have been incredibly disruptive to "normal people" as opposed to the government and I just can't see the public supporting them.

    One of the climate protests here a few months back shut down one of the harbour bridges for a few hours. They announced two weeks in advance that they were going to do it, everyone in town spent those two weeks handwringing about it, and everyone still sounded completely blindsided when it actually happened, because it seems nobody dared consider one of the other several ways to get across the harbour, much less planning for a similar level of disruption that a forecast snowstorm would imply.


    CanadianWolverine
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    El Skid wrote: »
    I know what the train route was supposed to move today though- me :P

    My daughter loves to take the train and we had tickets to train along the Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa corridor- our trains were of course cancelled.

    So now we’re on a greyhound bus that costs more, is less comfortable and takes longer.

    *shrug* oh well. This’ll be a new experience for my daughter and we’re caught up enough on the news that we made alternate arrangements before the busses sold out. Apparently some train passengers had their head stuck in the sand and just arrived at the train terminal to find out they were completely hosed...

    That seems like something Via Rail should be responsible for addressing. Train replacement bus service is, you know, a thing.

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    (I forget what it's called, but there's actually a specific term for the tendency for huge-tent movements to autoradicalize, because the bonkersmost members of the group tend to be best able to drag it in whatever direction it's going. In those terms the federal Conservatives were toast as soon as they merged with Reform, but you can see the same general pattern on, say, 4chan.)

    I think the term is "evaporative cooling" - the moderates leave because the party is too extreme, which makes the remaining party more extreme since it no longer has moderates. Rinse and repeat.

    I don't think it would be triggered automatically for a huge-tent movement, though - the party would be stable as long as most of its members feel it represents them - even if it's not a perfect match, as long as they still get a say. Basically the Conservatives need to have "center", "center-right" and "far-right" members in a "center-right" party. If the party mechanisms turn it into a far-right party it kicks off the vicious cycle. (Switch "right" for "left" and "Conservatives" for "UK Labour" and it probably works just as well.)

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    El Skid wrote: »
    Apparently some train passengers had their head stuck in the sand and just arrived at the train terminal to find out they were completely hosed...
    this does not surprise me at all.

    The West Coast Express commuter train from the burbs to downtown was cancelled today because of the protests. I don't know if these things are supposed to get the public on their side or what but all the protests in the Vancouver region have been incredibly disruptive to "normal people" as opposed to the government and I just can't see the public supporting them.

    Getting other people on their side isn't the point of these protests though.

    The point of protests like these is to get people to realize the problem even exists. It doesn't let us pretend its a smaller story than it is because they marched down a road peacefully, held a speech in a public space outside some office of prominence or influence, and then dispersed - only to have their story and grievances land on page 5 of the local rag if they are lucky.

    If you are wondering how such a protest can garner support from allies outside its minority multi-group membership, its because other protests of members of the majority have been treated in a similar fashion and realize they need to protect the Charter Rights of others to protect their own and build trust that makes Reconciliation possible. Beyond that, it is just pointing out that something as fundamental to the framework of our country as still not having a modern treaty negotiated and ratified before going through the water shed of a contested area in the aforementioned treaty which involves a constitutional process for the First Nation be acknowledged, its too important to be ignored. Just throwing more RCMP and draconian injunctions at this is not going to help reconcile the under lying crux of the matter and as demonstrated actually turns a decade long local dispute into a nation wide reminder that we're not fully committing to reconciliation that would prevent the next Residential School genocide aka using force in these matters invites an asymmetrical response from the suppressed.

    The problem is that mostly what people realize is that the protests are a problem. The difference between the smaller protest you gave an example of and this is they've annoyed a lot more people. But nobody actually cares more about the core issue.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    The problem with the Conservative party splitting is that then they could never win power. It's why the merger happened in the first place.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.

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  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.
    so?

    edit - to be less snarky, it super sucks for them but it's happening so I just don't know where we go from here. Like this is clearly an issue between hereditary chiefs and elected ones, as "joe canadian" i have no fucking idea how they can fix this issue but like.. it's too late?

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    That's why I was wondering if there was a business connection here, because putting the hurt on companies connected to the pipeline would be very effective.

  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited February 14
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.
    so?

    edit - to be less snarky, it super sucks for them but it's happening so I just don't know where we go from here. Like this is clearly an issue between hereditary chiefs and elected ones, as "joe canadian" i have no fucking idea how they can fix this issue but like.. it's too late?

    It's not.

    The more information that comes out, the more obvious it is that the BC government is violating a Supreme Court order, and that they have been working with industry for the last 23 years to force First Nations to surrender their land claims.

    Let me be absolutely clear:

    We are the baddies, here.

    So I support their fight, no matter how hopeless it is, because it is right.

    Nova_C on
    MeeqeZibblsnrtThe Cow KingSchmimpy Pim- no god what am I sayingGnome-InterruptusArcticLancerSir FabulousDescendant XShadowenPsykomaCanadianWolverineRear Admiral Choco
  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.

    Then the protests and the public message should be focused on that, not the hereditary chiefs' rights. I get the part where that's the legal argument but in terms of PR it's kryptonite.

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.

    Then the protests and the public message should be focused on that, not the hereditary chiefs' rights. I get the part where that's the legal argument but in terms of PR it's kryptonite.

    exactly, this was a sort of my point

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Hardtarget wrote: »
    Nova_C wrote: »
    These protests are to apply pressure in the same way that labour strikes do. Most people get mad at striking workers, but striking is how they get concessions.

    Disrupting economic activity is how protesters get concessions. I think being able to shut down the entire eastern rail network is a pretty massive disruption. That's a good protest.

    sure, except this isn't gonna work. the pipeline is being built either way and the public doesn't back the protests. This isn't some sort of civil rights protest where a minority wants to vote or something.

    Like I get it but all this is doing is dragging out this process.

    So? This may not be important enough to you, but it's everything to the people who live on land that may become a toxic disaster if these pipelines get built.

    Then the protests and the public message should be focused on that, not the hereditary chiefs' rights. I get the part where that's the legal argument but in terms of PR it's kryptonite.

    You think people care any more about the environment?

    They don't.

    ZibblsnrtCanadianWolverine
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